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The first creation story seems to agree with evolution

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LittleLambofJesus

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Well, I don't think the Hebrews thought about evolution much back then but I did find this article interesting written from the Hebrew way of looking at poetry rather than the greek/hellenized way of Christianity today. Thoughts?

http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/23_genesis_1.html

When we read Genesis chapter one we usually see only one story there, but there are actually many stories. Why don't we see these multiple stories? Because we read the Hebrew Bible from a Modern Western thinkers point of view and not from an Ancient Eastern thinkers such as the Hebrews who wrote it. The Hebrews style of writing is prolific with a style of poetry unfamiliar to most readers of the Bible. This poetry is nothing like the poetry we are used to reading today and therefore it is invisible to us.
 
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GooberJIL

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Genesis 1:11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.

Genesis 2:8 And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.

In Genesis 1 plants grew on Earth, but not in the Garden of Eden. On day six God planted the Garden of Eden with Adam watching. There is not a contradiction.

Strong's Concordance:
Earth:
H776
àøõ
'erets
eh'-rets
From an unused root probably meaning to be firm; the earth (at large, or partitively a land): - X common, country, earth, field, ground, land, X nations, way, + wilderness, world.



garden:
H1588
âּï
gan
gan
From H1598; a garden (as fenced): - garden.
 
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GooberJIL

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So then in Gen 1 nothing grew, but God only made the earth suitable to support it grow it? Seeds in the Earth, but there was "no herb of the field had yet sprung up", because "God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was no man to till the ground"?
 
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gluadys

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Well, I don't think the Hebrews thought about evolution much back then but I did find this article interesting written from the Hebrew way of looking at poetry rather than the greek/hellenized way of Christianity today. Thoughts?

http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/23_genesis_1.html

When we read Genesis chapter one we usually see only one story there, but there are actually many stories. Why don't we see these multiple stories? Because we read the Hebrew Bible from a Modern Western thinkers point of view and not from an Ancient Eastern thinkers such as the Hebrews who wrote it. The Hebrews style of writing is prolific with a style of poetry unfamiliar to most readers of the Bible. This poetry is nothing like the poetry we are used to reading today and therefore it is invisible to us.

That's an interesting analysis. Though I will be picky and say the author succumbed to Western Hellenized thinking by truncating the story at the end of chapter one. Chapters and verses were not part of the original scripture and most scholars agree that the true ending of the first creation story is Gen. 2:4a, not Gen. 1:31 I believe we miss an important part of the creation story when we do not see the Sabbath as its crown.

I also wish he had gone more deeply into the Hebrew implications of the word "moved/rested/hovered " (various translations) for the action of the Wind/Spirit in verse 2. It is a rare and peculiar word that refers specifically to the fluttering of a mother bird above her nestlings. I love this image, for to me it suggests that God, through the Spirit, gave birth to creation.
 
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Assyrian

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So then in Gen 1 nothing grew, but God only made the earth suitable to support it grow it? Seeds in the Earth, but there was "no herb of the field had yet sprung up", because "God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was no man to till the ground"?
No that doesn't work either.

Gen 1:12 The earth brought forth vegetation, plants yielding seed according to their own kinds, and trees bearing fruit in which is their seed, each according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.
 
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Assyrian

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I also wish he had gone more deeply into the Hebrew implications of the word "moved/rested/hovered " (various translations) for the action of the Wind/Spirit in verse 2. It is a rare and peculiar word that refers specifically to the fluttering of a mother bird above her nestlings. I love this image, for to me it suggests that God, through the Spirit, gave birth to creation.
I particularly like the translation brooded. It is so full of love and care for the creation and the life that is to emerge, or is even incubating at that stage. It seems very incongruous for a literal six day interpretation of Genesis. The Holy Spirit has a quick brood, for how long 20 minutes, an hour, in the middle of day one, and then on with the rest of creation. No, a short flutter does not hack it as a brood. An eon or two, that would really be a good brood for the Spirit of God.
 
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artybloke

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I really found the article about Hebrew poetry interesting. It reminded me of something that is so often forgotten about the Bible: that it isn't Western. It doesn't follow Western post-Enlightenment logic at all. So much argument would disappear down a plughole of insignificance if we remembered that.

So much interpretation of the Bible (literalist or non-literalist) is as much about looking down a well and seeing our own faces reflected in the water at the bottom of it. We try to make the Bible familiar to ourselves, when it's not. In fact, it's very strange: and that's where its power lies, in its strangeness.
 
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gluadys

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I particularly like the translation brooded. It is so full of love and care for the creation and the life that is to emerge, or is even incubating at that stage. It seems very incongruous for a literal six day interpretation of Genesis. The Holy Spirit has a quick brood, for how long 20 minutes, an hour, in the middle of day one, and then on with the rest of creation. No, a short flutter does not hack it as a brood. An eon or two, that would really be a good brood for the Spirit of God.

Yes, that's my favorite translation too.

Another thing is that this is the first image of the divine which the bible presents to us---and it is a feminine image.

There is a lot more femaleness to the God of the bible than our patriarchal traditions let us see.
 
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GooberJIL

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No that doesn't work either.

Gen 1:12 The earth brought forth vegetation, plants yielding seed according to their own kinds, and trees bearing fruit in which is their seed, each according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.

I think we are in agreement that on day six God planted the Garden of Eden with Adam watching, so my main thrust will be; "Did plants grow on the Third Day?"

Genesis 1
:9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.
10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.
11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.
12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
13 And the evening and the morning were the third day.

14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.
16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,
18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.
19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.
Day 3:

v.9-10 water gathered and land appears.
v.11 God calls on the earth to "bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth:"
v.11 "and it was so." The Earth does as it was commanded. And is confirmed in v.12

Day 4: v.14-19 Sun, moon, and stars created.

Are we in agreement that, according to Genesis 1, plants grew on the Third Day?
 
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Assyrian

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I think we are in agreement that on day six God planted the Garden of Eden with Adam watching,
Eden is part of the second creation account. There is no mention of numbered days in that story. Asking about planting the garden on the sixth day may be no more meaningful than asking why the Prodigal Son did not just go and stay with the Good Samaritan. But if you take the account literally, God planted the garden after he created Adam.

so my main thrust will be; "Did plants grow on the Third Day?"

Day 3:

v.9-10 water gathered and land appears.
v.11 God calls on the earth to "bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth:"
v.11 "and it was so." The Earth does as it was commanded. And is confirmed in v.12

Day 4: v.14-19 Sun, moon, and stars created.

Are we in agreement that, according to Genesis 1, plants grew on the Third Day?
If you interpret it as a literal consecutive six day chronology, yes.
 
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GooberJIL

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Eden is part of the second creation account. There is no mention of numbered days in that story. Asking about planting the garden on the sixth day may be no more meaningful than asking why the Prodigal Son did not just go and stay with the Good Samaritan. But if you take the account literally, God planted the garden after he created Adam.
Can we agree that since God ceased from creating and making on the Seventh Day, the Garden of Eden must have been planted by God on the Sixth day?


If you interpret it as a literal consecutive six day chronology, yes.
Just to make my POV clear; I do interpret it that way.
 
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GooberJIL

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Genesis 2:
4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,
5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground.
6 But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground.
7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
8 And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.
9 And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
10 And a river went out of Eden to water the garden; and from thence it was parted, and became into four heads.

v.4 sounds like 1:1

v.5 talks about plants before they grew and gives reasons for it.
1. no rain
2. no man to till the ground.

v.6 ground is now watered so reason one is removed as an obstacle and there is no day given for when this happens and leaves the door open that it may have happened on the Third Day.

v.7 man is made, and we agree that this was on the Sixth Day.

v.8 the Garden is planted and man is then placed there.

v.9 we have the first mention of plants growing out of the ground.

v.10 four rivers water the Garden.



Are we in agreement so far?
 
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Assyrian

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v.4 sounds like 1:1
You mean apart from the part where 2:4 describes the whole of creation as happening in a day? ;)

v.5 talks about plants before they grew and gives reasons for it.
1. no rain
2. no man to till the ground.

v.6 ground is now watered so reason one is removed as an obstacle and there is no day given for when this happens and leaves the door open that it may have happened on the Third Day.
There are two problems I see here. In Gen 1 on day three, the land had just been underwater that morning, so a lack of rain was not the reason for no plants then. Neither was a labour shortage. In Gen 1 the plants grew quite happily before the gardener arrived.

The reason for no plants in Gen 1 is:
1. It had only been 3 days, have a bit of patience,
2. They hadn't been made yet.

v.7 man is made, and we agree that this was on the Sixth Day.

v.8 the Garden is planted and man is then placed there.

v.9 we have the first mention of plants growing out of the ground.

v.10 four rivers water the Garden.

Are we in agreement so far?
Ok on that.
 
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GooberJIL

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There are two problems I see here. In Gen 1 on day three, the land had just been underwater that morning, so a lack of rain was not the reason for no plants then. Neither was a labour shortage. In Gen 1 the plants grew quite happily before the gardener arrived.

You almost got my next point.

Recap: Earth has plants/Garden barren until Day Six.

We have two different groups of vegetation being described.
1. Wild
2. Domestic

Do the plants that grow wild need someone to worry about watering them or tilling the ground? The obvious answer would be, "No."

Do domesticated/cultivated plants need someone to worry about watering them and tilling the ground? The obvious answer would be, "Yes."

Anyone that has ever kept and dressed a garden or a farm will confirm that it takes alot of work. From the limited amount of gardening that I've done, step one is 'till the soil,' step two is 'moisten the ground,' step three is 'plant the plants,' step four is 'dress and keep,' and step five is 'repeat previous steps as often as necessary.'

From these two chapters one can see that there is a shift in style and format, suggesting that these are two different stories(or an accounting inside an accounting). These chapters are given a uniformity by using similar wordings to describe different events that have a common theme. From what I understand, the original text was written in a very poetic manner, and my attempt to articulate this is admittedly lacking, but does fit when one views these from a poetic POV.

A modern example of two seemingly contradictory accountings.
Obi: Darth Vader betrayed and murdered you father.
Darth Vader: Luke, I am your father!
Obi: What I said is true, from a certain point of view.

Both are correct. Darth Vader was Luke's biological father. Obi is right because there is more to being a father than just 'making a baby.'


Here's another example:

Luke 4:
16 And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.
17 And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Isaiah. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written,
18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.
20 And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him.
21 And he began to say unto them, This day is this Scripture fulfilled in your ears.
As this is written in the OT, if it was done by anyone other than Jesus, we would say that the speaker had taken the Isaiah passage out of context and we would consider the "acceptable year of the LORD" and "the day of vengeance of our God" to be one event. Yet by the way Jesus read it we now know that they are not so tightly connected as a simple reading of the text would suggest.

Isaiah 61:
1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;
2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;
3 To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the LORD, that he might be glorified.
 
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GooberJIL

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thoughtful replies I will respond to.
I Timothy 6:
20 O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called:
21 Which some professing have erred concerning the faith. Grace be with thee. Amen.

replies like this will be ignored.
Thus starts another journey for Planet Fantasy.
 
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gwynedd1

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You almost got my next point.

Recap: Earth has plants/Garden barren until Day Six.

We have two different groups of vegetation being described.
1. Wild
2. Domestic

Do the plants that grow wild need someone to worry about watering them or tilling the ground? The obvious answer would be, "No."

Do domesticated/cultivated plants need someone to worry about watering them and tilling the ground? The obvious answer would be, "Yes."

Anyone that has ever kept and dressed a garden or a farm will confirm that it takes alot of work. From the limited amount of gardening that I've done, step one is 'till the soil,' step two is 'moisten the ground,' step three is 'plant the plants,' step four is 'dress and keep,' and step five is 'repeat previous steps as often as necessary.'

From these two chapters one can see that there is a shift in style and format, suggesting that these are two different stories(or an accounting inside an accounting). These chapters are given a uniformity by using similar wordings to describe different events that have a common theme. From what I understand, the original text was written in a very poetic manner, and my attempt to articulate this is admittedly lacking, but does fit when one views these from a poetic POV.

A modern example of two seemingly contradictory accountings.
Obi: Darth Vader betrayed and murdered you father.
Darth Vader: Luke, I am your father!
Obi: What I said is true, from a certain point of view.

Both are correct. Darth Vader was Luke's biological father. Obi is right because there is more to being a father than just 'making a baby.'


Here's another example:

As this is written in the OT, if it was done by anyone other than Jesus, we would say that the speaker had taken the Isaiah passage out of context and we would consider the "acceptable year of the LORD" and "the day of vengeance of our God" to be one event. Yet by the way Jesus read it we now know that they are not so tightly connected as a simple reading of the text would suggest.

Hello GooberJIL,

If I understand correctly, you are asying the garden of Eden was on the 6th day. I suppose also that there may have been plants but not perhaps good for food which was specific to Eden.
 
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