Marriage, Divorce, & Remarriage

[ShermanN]

Sherman,

Respectfully, I want you to know that I do not support in ANYway what you teach. I believe you are in direct conflict with the Lord Jesus and what He taught us about MDR. I also believe you are in direct conflict with the will of our God for marriage.

We DO NOT as believers have an excuse to divorce one another. Not even our frailties are an excuse. We have the Spirit of God. We have the blood of Jesus. We have the Word of God. We are the head, not the tail. I cannot allow anyone, including you, to lessen the majesty, power, and authority of God in a believer's life...in a believer's marriage.

You state that you spend a great deal of your time "ministering" in the black christian community. I can't help but wonder how your "doctrine" and beliefs affect MY community. I am a black woman. Are the statistics for divorce in my community a reflection of teachings like yours?

God is the authority of marriage and when He is the authority IN marriage...there is no failure. When we fail, yes, He is faithful and just and forgives us for our sin...but making His grace an allowance to divorce is willfully sinning. Hebrews tells us what awaits those who turn away from the commandments of the Lord and sin anyway.

I can't speak for all my black people. But when it comes to the family as the foundation of society and marriage being a reflection of Christ's relationship to His Bride... this is ONE black woman that shuns your brand of help and your book!

4Christ2, thanks for your reply and your passion on this subject. But I believe you've completely missed my intent and misunderstood what I'm presenting.

Concerning believers having an "excuse to divorce one another", I don't know that I've presented an "excuse" to divorce in anything I've presented. In fact, I've pointed out that for Christians we should do all we can to make our marriages last. And part of having healthy marriages is living in the reality that marriage is breakable and that our spouse has needs and reasonable expectations. Not only that but we need to have healthy personal boundaries, and part of having healthy boundaries is knowing where to draw the line in the relationship. But the traditional doctrine has kept people from drawing healthy personal boundaries and rather, moved us into codependent relationships, where we empower the abusers.

You made some passionate statements about me and that's ok, but I would like to ask you specifically what do you disagree with "specifically". What do you believe? Is marriage breakable or indissoluble? If MDR under personal, domestic, or civil authority? (And please don't cop-out and say God's authority, because everything is under God's ultimate authority, but God gave us authority structures and which one does MDR fall under?) Did Jesus disagree with Moses and intent to repudiate the bill of divorce. Can a divorce' remarry?

You make some blanket statements of disagreement, but what do you specifically disagree with and why?

Concerning the statistics, I agree that divorce is terrible. In many cases it's worse than death, being an unending sourse of pain and destruction for generations. One statistic that you didn't mention is that the divorce rate in the Church is as high, even higher, than the divorce rate amoung non-Christians. I believe that this is due in large part to the traditional doctrine of MDR. By refusing to recognize that marriage is breakable, the church has stuck it's head in the sand like an ostrich. Concerning the tradgedy of the exceptionally high rate of divorce in the black community, other factors influence this more than the traditional doctrine of MDR, but that's more than we can deal with in one post, and really would require a seperate thread if you want to start one.

4Christ2, it's my earnest prayer that God will bless you and continue to bring increasing wholeness into your life and family.

Blessings,
Sherman

 

[ShermanN]

ShermanNobles, did you get divorced and remarried? Or your wife? Or someone else close to you?

I am just trying to understand why you are going hand over foot to try and reword/twist the bible to support an institution that God rejects in the clearest of words.


[FONT=&quot]“the Lord God of Israel says that HE HATES DIVORCE” (Malachi 2:16)[/FONT]

No Mezza, I'm happily married to the wife of my youth and neither of us have ever been previously married and divorced. We have 4 children, ages 2, 7, 14, & 17.

Concerning "twisting" the bible, you're more than welcome to correct me where I'm wrong or share specifically what you disagree with, but please don't imply negative motives. Though I understand the Word different than you do, does not mean that I'm trying to pervert anything or anyone. Or do you have perfect doctrine and a pure heart able to judge others whom you don't even know?

Why is this a passion for me? I love to study the Word and several years ago I was restudying the doctrine of MDR and came across some information that revolutionized my understanding of what Jesus said. As I got into it, I found error upon error in the traditional doctrine.

Beyond that, I've seen the traditional doctrine of MDR destroy families, lives, marriages, and the faith of many. It empowers oppressors and binds victims. Frankly, it's a doctrine of demons that has bound the church and kept it from being the prophetic voice of truth that it's called to be. The traditional doctrine is like a spider's web of deceit that has many people caught in it's deadly grasp.

Concerning Mal.2.16, a better translation of that scripture is based on understanding the idiomatic phrase, "hateful divorce." In that passage, God is chastening the men of Israel for divorcing the wives of their youth so that they could marry other women (younger foreign women at that). God says that the man who commits the "hateful divorce" is a man of violence covered in blood! Saying that "God hates divorce," is about as senceless as saying "God hates amputation." If you're dying of gangrene, amputation could be what the doctor orders; but you certainly don't want to go around hacking people's legs off!

 

[MezzaMorta]

Malachi 2:26 says that he hates divorce, not remarriage!

I'm sure the verse that exist though out the NT (spoken by Jesus) stating that those who are divorced and remarried commit adultery have been posted.

 

[MezzaMorta]

No Mezza, I'm happily married to the wife of my youth and neither of us have ever been previously married and divorced. We have 4 children, ages 2, 7, 14, & 17.

Concerning "twisting" the bible, you're more than welcome to correct me where I'm wrong or share specifically what you disagree with, but please don't imply negative motives. Though I understand the Word different than you do, does not mean that I'm trying to pervert anything or anyone. Or do you have perfect doctrine and a pure heart able to judge others whom you don't even know?

Why is this a passion for me? I love to study the Word and several years ago I was restudying the doctrine of MDR and came across some information that revolutionized my understanding of what Jesus said. As I got into it, I found error upon error in the traditional doctrine.

Beyond that, I've seen the traditional doctrine of MDR destroy families, lives, marriages, and the faith of many. It empowers oppressors and binds victims. Frankly, it's a doctrine of demons that has bound the church and kept it from being the prophetic voice of truth that it's called to be. The traditional doctrine is like a spider's web of deceit that has many people caught in it's deadly grasp.

Concerning Mal.2.16, a better translation of that scripture is based on understanding the idiomatic phrase, "hateful divorce." In that passage, God is chastening the men of Israel for divorcing the wives of their youth so that they could marry other women (younger foreign women at that). God says that the man who commits the "hateful divorce" is a man of violence covered in blood! Saying that "God hates divorce," is about as senceless as saying "God hates amputation." If you're dying of gangrene, amputation could be what the doctor orders; but you certainly don't want to go around hacking people's legs off!

Jesus himself said, in the clearest of words that those who are divorced and re-married commit adultery.

 

[Sojourner<><]

Of course, concerning divorce being a "possibility"; Jesus said "What God has joined together, man should not tear apart." Thus it implies that it's possible for man to break apart even what God has joined together (though we shouldn't). My point is that marriage is breakable and we should recognize that and do all we can in our power to protect our marriages. One of the ways to protect our marriages is to recognize the needs and expectations of our spouses. If we consistently do not meet these needs and reasonable expectations, we open the door, give room for Satan to work in our marriages and destroy them. Of course, 1 Cor.7 speaks specifically concerning a couple's need for sexual intimacy, but we have other needs to.

Concerning divorce being an option, again 1 Cor. 7 speaks specifically about neglect and abandonment, and specifically about the case of an unbelieving spouse abandoning the marriage, the Christian is not "under bondage."

Beyond that, the 1st century Jew would have also understood marriage in much more practical terms than we do. They actually had a marriage contract (the ketubah) including a pre-nuptial agreement (the dowry). Based on the Mosaic law of taking a slave as one's wife, which basically said that if a man had taken one of his slave's as a wife, and he took another wife, he could not diminish the slave wife's food, clothing, housing, or conjugal rights. If he did so, he was to set her free from being his wife and being his slave. Based on that, all rabbis assumed that the basic needs of support, provision, and initimacy were to be met. If the husband refused to meet these needs and expectations, they would actually presure him to divorce his wife, and they used an increase of the dowry to accomplish it. If the wife refused, they would threaten her with a decrease in the dowry (divorce settlement).

Sadly, because of the errant teaching in the church, we've become so "spiritual" on this issue that we've lost touch with "reality" and the "practical". Reality, divorce is a possibility and an option. False religious doctrine says that divorce is not a possibility or an option.

Please don't misunderstand me, I believe that by recognizing that marriage is breakable and divorce is possible and an option, we can and should position ourselves to guard and strengthen our marriages. By living in the illusion that marriage is "indissoluble", we often fail to heed the warning signs or take practical precautions to protect our marriages. We need to have a vision and goal of making our marriages last, but that is grounded in the reality that if we don't do the work of building the relationship, we run the risk of it breaking apart.

Does that answer your question or do you have other concerns?

Oh, not really. I see what you mean. Thanks.

 

[Sojourner<><]

Oh, not really. I see what you mean. Thanks.

I take that back because I do have one question. What are your thoughts on Hagar?

 

[ShermanN]

Jesus himself said, in the clearest of words that those who are divorced and re-married commit adultery.

Actually Mezza, it would be helpful if you read through the posts. You'll find that when Jesus said "if a man divorces his wife and marries another" both "divorces" and "marries" are in the subjunctive mood in Greek and thus another viable translation is "if a man divorces his wife in order to marry another he commits adultery against her."

Of course that's just one of the scriptures. Jesus also affirmed civil authority by stating that if a woman leaves her husband she should remain unmarried, because in Israel, women could not initiate divorce and if a woman left her husband she was still legally married and could not legally marry another man, unless her husband divorced her.

I encourage you to read through the other posts. Unless of course you're set on what you believe regardless of what other evidence is presented to the contrary.

Blessings,
Sherman

The following are the primary posts that I've made in this thread.

1, Thread Introduction
2, Personal Introduction
7, Traditional Doctrine of MDR defined
26, MDR is under Civil Authority, not the Church’s
35, Marriage Defined
38, Fornication, sex outside of marriage
40, Mt.19.1-3 Any Matter Divorce
49, Mt.19.1-3 Any Matter Divorce B
50, Divorce – a type of lingering death
51, The Pharisees
58, The Pharisees, a little more
59, Marriage, Indissoluble or Breakable
106, Mt.19.1-3 Review Key Points
114, Mt.19.4-6 Jesus’ desire for us – heaven on earth
148, Mt.4-6 One Flesh
153, One Flesh, brokenness to wholeness
159, True Love vs. Romantic Love
172, “two” – Jesus Affirmed Monogamy
176, Authorial Context, Jesus and Moses, Jesus’ Attitude towards the Mosaic Law
178, Authorial Context – Jesus and Civil Authority
195, Sexual intimacy, does it create an unbreakable bond?
207, Mt.19.7 Why did Moses legislate the bill of divorce?
217, Mt.19.9 Multiple variations in early Greek texts
218, Mt.19.8-9 Meanings of apoluo, de, and porniah
220, Mt.19.8-9 Interpreted
221, Post Review
229, The Bottom Line, Principles of MDR that I believe are Biblical
236, Jesus Radically Challenges the Jewish Embedded theology that All should Procreate.
237, Mt.19.4-6 The Vision
239, Mt.5.31-32 The Sermon on the Mount
240, The House
244, Lk.16.18 Divorce in the Context of the Parental Love of God
257, Mk10.1-12 Jesus calls for a radical purity of heart
258, 1 Cor.7.1 Is it best to not be sexually intimate?
259, 1 Cor.7.11-12 Paul quotes Jesus on divorce.
260, 1 Cor.7.15 Meaning of “under bondage”
261, 1 Cor.7.27-28a If you are divorced and you marry, you do NOT sin!

 

[MezzaMorta]

Actually Mezza, it would be helpful if you read through the posts. You'll find that when Jesus said "if a man divorces his wife and marries another" both "divorces" and "marries" are in the subjunctive mood in Greek and thus another viable translation is "if a man divorces his wife in order to marry another he commits adultery against her."

I’m sure you recall eairlyer in this thread where we argued over pre-marital sex. It was pretty well established that you have what 3 years I think you said it was of Greek study…. Where I actually speak Greek (Sicilian dialect), and have studied biblical Greek for over 10 years in school. So don’t try to pull the “it means something different in the original texts”… might work on people who don’t know Greek, but I can open up the Greek texts of the bible and see that you are simply wrong.

 

[Chie]

I’m sure you recall eairlyer in this thread where we argued over pre-marital sex. It was pretty well established that you have what 3 years I think you said it was of Greek study…. Where I actually speak Greek (Sicilian dialect), and have studied biblical Greek for over 10 years in school. So don’t try to pull the “it means something different in the original texts”… might work on people who don’t know Greek, but I can open up the Greek texts of the bible and see that you are simply wrong.

It does not matter 3yrs or life. I have never ever had any study on greek and nor do I have to , to know what is sin , no man teaches, it is the Spirit.
Unless you have a spiritual awakening all the knowledge of greek will profit you nothing.

 

[ShermanN]

I take that back because I do have one question. What are your thoughts on Hagar?

Another practice acceptable in that culture but not ours; though it would be comparable to surrogate motherhood today.

Was it wrong, not according to the civil authority and culture of that day, but it was wrong for Abraham because of his relationship with God and the promise of God to work a miracle in his life and the life of Sarah his wife. "Whatsoever is not of faith is sin." Culture influences our lives far more than we realize. One of our biggest difficulties in interpreting the Word is undestanding what was written and why it was written in that culture. It's also challenging to discern what was Descriptive and what should be considered Prescriptive.

Thank God that we have the Holy Spirit to teach us. And I thank God that He is far more gracious and understanding than we. PTL!!!!

 

[MezzaMorta]

It does not matter 3yrs or life. I have never ever had any study on greek and nor do I have to , to know what is sin , no man teaches, it is the Spirit.
Unless you have a spiritual awakening all the knowledge of greek will profit you nothing.

We know what sin is because Jesus told us:

"But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery." (Matthew 5:32)

/Thread

 

[angelmom01]

We know what sin is because Jesus told us:

"But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery." (Matthew 5:32)

/Thread

If you look it up in the Greek you will see that the word in that verse is not "divorced" but "put away".

Men were putting away their wives WITHOUT divorcing them.

 

[ShermanN]

I’m sure you recall eairlyer in this thread where we argued over pre-marital sex. It was pretty well established that you have what 3 years I think you said it was of Greek study…. Where I actually speak Greek (Sicilian dialect), and have studied biblical Greek for over 10 years in school. So don’t try to pull the “it means something different in the original texts”… might work on people who don’t know Greek, but I can open up the Greek texts of the bible and see that you are simply wrong.

Mezza, actually The Message translates Mark 10:11-12 "When they were back home, the disciples brought it up again. Jesus gave it to them straight: 'A man who divorces his wife so he can marry someone else commits adultery against her. And a woman who divorces her husband so she can marry someone else commits adultery.'"

But of course, it's likely that you know Greek better than Dr.P. and it's also likely that you understand Aramaic language and culture better than George Lamasa who interpreted the Bible from the Aramaic Peshitta Bible.

So though I don't consider myself an expert, I do study what the experts have written. And I do know how to use the various tools available to all who are willing to study. I am also very diligent to study the cultural, literary, and authorial context of the passages. I never did seek to prove anything but I have always sought to undertand. I'll gladly seriously consider anything anyone has to share if they present why they believe it and not just make categorical assertions and inflamatory statements.

May I ask, why do you hold so tightly to the traditional doctrine? Also, please specify what you believe. Did Jesus intend to repudiate the bill of divorce and reinstitute that marriage is indissoluble. Are only marriages done in the Church indissoluble or are all indissoluble. If someone has divorced and remarried, seeing that marriage is indissoluble, they are living in adultery, so they should divorce their current spouse and seek to remarry their first; is this what you believe.

Please do share all the wisdom that you have gathered through your many relationships and through your many years of study. I've shared what I believe and why I believe it. Please take time to do the same.

Blessings,
Sherman

 

[MezzaMorta]

If you look it up in the Greek you will see that the word in that verse is not "divorced" but "put away".

Men were putting away their wives WITHOUT divorcing them.

No it's not. The first term used "&#7936;&#960;&#959;&#955;&#8059;&#969;&#957;" means to set free (ie: remove from the marriage... divorce) and the second term used "&#7936;&#960;&#959;&#955;&#949;&#955;&#965;&#956;&#8051;&#957;&#951;&#957;" means to leave behind or "forsake"... ie: divorce... leavening your wife.

 

[MezzaMorta]

Mezza, actually The Message translates Mark 10:11-12 "When they were back home, the disciples brought it up again. Jesus gave it to them straight: 'A man who divorces his wife so he can marry someone else commits adultery against her. And a woman who divorces her husband so she can marry someone else commits adultery.'"

Where do you get that translation from?

&#949;&#7984;&#962; &#7971;&#957; &#948;' &#7938;&#957; &#960;&#8057;&#955;&#953;&#957; &#7970; &#954;&#8061;&#956;&#951;&#957; &#949;&#7984;&#963;&#8051;&#955;&#952;&#951;&#964;&#949;, &#7952;&#958;&#949;&#964;&#8049;&#963;&#945;&#964;&#949; &#964;&#8055;&#962; &#7952;&#957; &#945;&#8016;&#964;&#8135; &#7940;&#958;&#953;&#8057;&#962; &#7952;&#963;&#964;&#953;&#957;: &#954;&#7936;&#954;&#949;&#8150; &#956;&#949;&#8055;&#957;&#945;&#964;&#949; &#7957;&#969;&#962; &#7938;&#957; &#7952;&#958;&#8051;&#955;&#952;&#951;&#964;&#949;. &#949;&#7984;&#963;&#949;&#961;&#967;&#8057;&#956;&#949;&#957;&#959;&#953; &#948;&#8050; &#949;&#7984;&#962; &#964;&#8052;&#957; &#959;&#7984;&#954;&#8055;&#945;&#957; &#7936;&#963;&#960;&#8049;&#963;&#945;&#963;&#952;&#949; &#945;&#8016;&#964;&#8053;&#957;:

That says:

​

11He answered, "Anyone who divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her. 12And if she divorces her husband and marries another man, she commits adultery."


​

But of course, it's likely that you know Greek better than Dr.P. and it's also likely that you understand Aramaic language and culture better than George Lamasa who interpreted the Bible from the Aramaic Peshitta Bible.

There are plenty of people lining up to change the word of Christ to fit their life, rather then have their life fit the words of Christ. And there are all to many people willing to accept these revisions to Christ’s words.
It is sad really.

May I ask, why do you hold so tightly to the traditional doctrine?

Because I believe in the word of the Lord.

Also, please specify what you believe. Did Jesus intend to repudiate the bill of divorce and reinstitute that marriage is indissoluble.

When Jesus came, he elevated matrimony to the same status it had originally possessed between Adam and Eve in the metaphorical account of genesis - the status of a sacrament. marriage between two baptized people is a sacramental marriage and, once consummated, cannot be dissolved. Jesus, therefore, taught that if anyone so married divorces and remarries, that person is living in perpetual adultery, a state of mortal sin.

Thus a married woman is bound by law to her husband as long as he lives. . . . Accordingly, she will be called an adulteress if she lives with another man while her husband is alive" (Rom. 7:2–3).

If someone has divorced and remarried, seeing that marriage is indissoluble, they are living in adultery, so they should divorce their current spouse and seek to remarry their first; is this what you believe.

I believe that someone who is divorced and get remarried is truly acting in a way that is very selfish. They are causing their new spouse to live in mortal sin, making them accomplish to their sin. Divorce dose not exist in the eyes of God, when two people commit themselves to each other to death before God, God holds them to that. Just because they get a piece of paper from a civil institution saying that the government no longer recognizes their marriage doesn’t mean that has authority over God. God still recognizes that marriage and expects them to hold to their commitment to God. If it is abousltly imposible for those two people to live together anymore, they can live separate lives. But they can not be intimate with anyone, as they are still married and it is adultery to do so. Not only do they make adultress of themselves, but they do so of their partners.

If these people who are divorced and re-married, truly love their new spouses they would not causing them to live in sin. If they truly love their new spouses they will end their relationship so that the non-divorced party can pursue a life that will not force them to live in mortal sin.

​

​

 

[Sojourner<><]

Another practice acceptable in that culture but not ours; though it would be comparable to surrogate motherhood today.

Was it wrong, not according to the civil authority and culture of that day, but it was wrong for Abraham because of his relationship with God and the promise of God to work a miracle in his life and the life of Sarah his wife. "Whatsoever is not of faith is sin." Culture influences our lives far more than we realize. One of our biggest difficulties in interpreting the Word is undestanding what was written and why it was written in that culture. It's also challenging to discern what was Descriptive and what should be considered Prescriptive.

Thank God that we have the Holy Spirit to teach us. And I thank God that He is far more gracious and understanding than we. PTL!!!!

Yeah, I know what you mean. But specifically I was thinking about how Abraham had sent Hagar away after Isaac was born. The funny thing is that it seems she wasn't an unbeliever since she prayed to God after the fact, but I think Paul talks about her as if she was an act of the flesh and not of faith? I'm not sure that he justified Abraham in doing this but I just thought it was an interesting example of a separation.

 

[ShermanN]

Where do you get that translation (The Message) from?

&#949;&#7984;&#962; &#7971;&#957; &#948;' &#7938;&#957; &#960;&#8057;&#955;&#953;&#957; &#7970; &#954;&#8061;&#956;&#951;&#957; &#949;&#7984;&#963;&#8051;&#955;&#952;&#951;&#964;&#949;, &#7952;&#958;&#949;&#964;&#8049;&#963;&#945;&#964;&#949; &#964;&#8055;&#962; &#7952;&#957; &#945;&#8016;&#964;&#8135; &#7940;&#958;&#953;&#8057;&#962; &#7952;&#963;&#964;&#953;&#957;: &#954;&#7936;&#954;&#949;&#8150; &#956;&#949;&#8055;&#957;&#945;&#964;&#949; &#7957;&#969;&#962; &#7938;&#957; &#7952;&#958;&#8051;&#955;&#952;&#951;&#964;&#949;. &#949;&#7984;&#963;&#949;&#961;&#967;&#8057;&#956;&#949;&#957;&#959;&#953; &#948;&#8050; &#949;&#7984;&#962; &#964;&#8052;&#957; &#959;&#7984;&#954;&#8055;&#945;&#957; &#7936;&#963;&#960;&#8049;&#963;&#945;&#963;&#952;&#949; &#945;&#8016;&#964;&#8053;&#957;:​

That says: ​

11He answered, "Anyone who divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her. 12And if she divorces her husband and marries another man, she commits adultery."

What scripture (in Greek) did you quote above and what sourse? It's not Mark 10.11-12.

And I'm surprised that you're not familiar with The Message; it's a very popular modern English translation by Dr. Eugene H. Peterson. Of course, being you know Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic so well, there's no need for you to consult other experts.

By the way, "The Greek New Testament according to the Majority Text (2nd ed)" records Mk.10.11-12 as:​

11 &#922;&#945;&#8054; &#955;&#941;&#947;&#949;&#953; &#945;&#8016;&#964;&#959;&#8150;&#962;, &#8220;&#8011;&#962; &#7952;&#8048;&#957; &#7936;&#960;&#959;&#955;&#973;&#963;&#8131; &#964;&#8052;&#957; &#947;&#965;&#957;&#945;&#8150;&#954;&#945; &#945;&#8016;&#964;&#959;&#8166; &#954;&#945;&#8054; &#947;&#945;&#956;&#942;&#963;&#8131; &#7940;&#955;&#955;&#951;&#957; &#956;&#959;&#953;&#967;&#8118;&#964;&#945;&#953; &#7952;&#960;&#8125; &#945;&#8016;&#964;&#942;&#957;, 12 &#954;&#945;&#8054; &#7952;&#8048;&#957; &#947;&#965;&#957;&#8052; &#7936;&#960;&#959;&#955;&#973;&#963;&#8131; &#964;&#8056;&#957; &#7940;&#957;&#948;&#961;&#945; &#945;&#8016;&#964;&#8134;&#962;[wash my mouth]&#954;&#945;&#8054; &#947;&#945;&#956;&#951;&#952;&#8135; &#7940;&#955;&#955;&#8179; &#956;&#959;&#953;&#967;&#8118;&#964;&#945;&#953;.​

And as anyone can see, in the passage in Mark, apoluo and gameo (emboldened and underlined) are both in the subjunctive mood and thus a viable translation is "divorces in order to marry another".​

Thus Dr. Peterson is correct when he translates Mk.10.11-12, "A man who divorces his wife so he can marry someone else commits adultery against her. And a woman who divorces her husband so she can marry someone else commits adultery."​

Furthermore, concerning the word "apoluo", it is translated as "release, put away, send away, let go, set at liberty, let depart, dismiss, and divorce." In the context of Jesus' words concerning divorce it can be translated as either "divorce - put away with a bill of divorce," or "seperation - put away without a bill of divorce." In fact the Aramaic text of Mt.5,19, and Lk.16 actually uses two different words, one meaning legal divorce, the other meaning seperation without a legal divorce. So angelmom was correct in her statement that it means "put away".​

Not only that but when Paul quotes Jesus in 1 Cor. 7, he also quotes Jesus using two different words, one meaning divorce, the other meaning seperation. And thus if a woman leaves (seperation but no divorce) her husband, she should remain unmarried or be restored to her husband, because she is still legally married to him according to Jewish Civil law.​

But you know, I've already covered all of this in previous posts which apparently you haven't taken time to read, much less present any evidence to the contrary.​

If you're not open to understanding scripture differently than what you've been taught all of your life, regardless of the evidence, that's ok. But I encourage you to be a little more respectful of others. (At least that's the way you're coming across to me, though I could be misreading you.) What one sows one reaps. If you sow respect, others will respect you.​

​

Sincerely,
Sherman
​

 

[ShermanN]

Yeah, I know what you mean. But specifically I was thinking about how Abraham had sent Hagar away after Isaac was born. The funny thing is that it seems she wasn't an unbeliever since she prayed to God after the fact, but I think Paul talks about her as if she was an act of the flesh and not of faith? I'm not sure that he justified Abraham in doing this but I just thought it was an interesting example of a separation.

Good observation. It is an interesting example of seperation. But of course, the Law had not been given yet so there was no bill of divorce and the prevailing cultural norms applied. Even after Moses was inspired to legislate the bill of divorce, the practice of abandoning or expelling one's wife without giving her a bill of divorce was still practiced. David and Michal, and Samson and his first wife are biblical examples of the continuance of this problem, as noted in previous posts.

Concerning Abraham being justified, as you know he was justified by his faith in God even though he made many mistakes, Hagar being one of them. We can learn a lot from the mistakes of others if we're open to correction.

 

[ShermanN]

The question was, "Why do you hold so tightly to the traditional doctrine."

Because I believe in the word of the Lord.

Please Mezza, don't be so arrogant and flipant as to think that you're the only one who believes the word of the Lord, and imply that anyone who understands scripture differently than you do does so out of selfish motives and because they do not "believe in the word of the Lord."

When Jesus came, he elevated matrimony to the same status it had originally possessed between Adam and Eve in the metaphorical account of genesis - the status of a sacrament. marriage between two baptized people is a sacramental marriage and, once consummated, cannot be dissolved. Jesus, therefore, taught that if anyone so married divorces and remarries, that person is living in perpetual adultery, a state of mortal sin.

So marriages between non-Christians are not marriages, and divorce is ok. Also, you say between to baptized people, do they have to be baptized in the RCC, or will any baptism do? What if they are married by a Justice of the Peace or a Notary, and not by a priest? Also, considering that you think that sexual immorality does not include intercourse between two non-married consenting adults, it's probably best to just live together and not get married, that way if you do break up you're not committing a sin.

Also, when you say that marriage is a "sacrament" because Jesus spoke of it pointing to the "metaphorical account of genesis", how can Jesus pointing to two perfect people in a perfect relationship in a perfect world be our standard. Was Jesus setting a "standard" or a "vision/goal" for us to work towards? If it's a "standard" then we're all up the perverbial creek. Rather, if it's a vision and a goal, anyone can work towards that, no matter how messed up their relationships have been and are.

Thus a married woman is bound by law to her husband as long as he lives. . . . Accordingly, she will be called an adulteress if she lives with another man while her husband is alive" (Rom. 7:2&#8211;3).

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In the context of this passage in Romans, Paul is using this basic principle of marriage to explain our freedom that we have in Christ from living under legalism - attempting to have right relationship with God through obeying the Law. This passage is not about MDR, but about freedom through Christ from the Law.
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Not only that, but just because I say that people die of old age, does not mean that people do not also die because of murder. In the same way, saying that marriage ends at death, does not mean that marriage can not also end through divorce. Jesus said that what God has joined together, man should not tear apart. This directly implies that the marriage union can be broken by man's effort (divorce), though it shouldn't be. Just like we are commanded to not commit murder, why? Because murder is possible, not impossible. The belief that marriage is indissoluble (even those joined by God) is just not Biblical or even reasonable.

I believe that someone who is divorced and get remarried is truly acting in a way that is very selfish. They are causing their new spouse to live in mortal sin, making them accomplish to their sin. Divorce dose not exist in the eyes of God, when two people commit themselves to each other to death before God, God holds them to that. Just because they get a piece of paper from a civil institution saying that the government no longer recognizes their marriage doesn&#8217;t mean that has authority over God. God still recognizes that marriage and expects them to hold to their commitment to God. If it is abousltly imposible for those two people to live together anymore, they can live separate lives. But they can not be intimate with anyone, as they are still married and it is adultery to do so. Not only do they make adultress of themselves, but they do so of their partners.

If these people who are divorced and re-married, truly love their new spouses they would not causing them to live in sin. If they truly love their new spouses they will end their relationship so that the non-divorced party can pursue a life that will not force them to live in mortal sin.

Your reasoning is based upon the false premise that marriage is indissoluble. Jesus did not say that what God has joined together, it is impossible for man to tear apart. He commanded that it should not be tore apart, implying that marriage is breakable, not indissoluble.

Of course, marriages should not be broken, and in no way am I encouraging divorce. To the contrary, I encourage people to recognize the reality (scriptural and practical) that their marriages are breakable and thus do all they can to protect them. Truly, marriage is the foundation of social order, and if the devil can destroy marriages, he can severely handicap lives for generations to come.​

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By teaching that marriage is indissoluble, the church moved from reality and truth into illusion and deception and thus lost it's power to speak prophetically to our cultures. Not only that but in Israel, MDR was under limited civil authority as legislated by Moses. Both Jesus and Paul recognized that MDR was/is under civil authority. The church needs to stop trying to control people (regulate MDR) and focus on empowering people to have healthy marriages, whether it's their 1st, 10th, or any other number.

 

[TrueColors]

Quote:

Thus a married woman is bound by law to her husband as long as he lives. . . . Accordingly, she will be called an adulteress if she lives with another man while her husband is alive" (Rom. 7:2&#8211;3).

In the context of this passage in Romans, Paul is using this basic principle of marriage to explain our freedom that we have in Christ from living under legalism - attempting to have right relationship with God through obeying the Law. This passage is not about MDR, but about freedom through Christ from the Law.

While it is true this passage IS about our freedom in Christ, Paul uses, as an example, something his society is familiar with... namely, the original law that binds a couple until death. In so doing, validating God's original intent in marriage~ one man with one woman for a lifetime. Paul pointedly says the same thing in 1 Corinthians 7:39 ( where our liberty in Christ is not the context of the scripture ).
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