Kaba

[Islam_mulia]

My apologies to Brother Oxy if I hijacked this post for a short while. (I just cannot resist discussing this with the great kjf):

Let us see what it says..

Muslim Claim :
ov.rei be.e.mek ha.ba.kha ma.yan ye.shi.tu.hu gam-be.ra.khot ya.te mo.re:

As they pass through the Valley of Baca, they make it a place of springs; the autumn rains also cover it with pools.
(Psalm 84:6)

However, what we have to ask our selves is what does ha.ba.kha mean? Well, let us see where his is used elsewhere within the Bible.

va.yish.al od da.vid be.lo.him va.yo.mer lo ha.e.lo.him lo ta.a.le a.kha.rei.hem ha.sev me.a.lei.hem u.va.ta la.hem mi.mul ha.be.kha.im:

so David inquired of God again, and God answered him, "Do not go straight up, but circle around them and attack them in front of the balsam trees. (1 Chronicles 14:14)

Fair enough, if you want to use the concordance to the Baca.

However, since the word 'Baca' is being scrutinised here, can you please explain to us why the various standard bibles used the word "Baca" instead of 'balsam trees'?

The New International Version, the New American Standard Version, the New King James Version, New Revised Standard Version, Holman Christian Standard Version, etc used "Baca" in Psalms 84:6.

It is obvious that the passage and the context would suggest it to be a place instead of a 'balsam tree'.

Blessed are those whose strength is in you, who have set their hearts on pilgrimage. 6 As they pass through the Valley of Baca, they make it a place of springs; the autumn rains also cover it with pools. 7 They go from strength to strength, till each appears before God in Zion. (Psalms 84)

The passage suggests a pilgrimage who passed the valley of Baca. Which Jewish pilgrimage takes the pilgrims to the Valley of Baca?

Where do you think then is the Valley of Baca, if it is not Mecca?

They go from strength to strength, till each appears before God in Zion. (Psalm 84:7)

Now what is Zion? The TEMPLE IN JERUSALEM!

This is why I really enjoy my discussions with you.

Tell me, kjf, if Psalms is written about King David, how then was the Temple already built?

... that's all I need to ask kjf.

Back to you, Brother Oxy.

 

[dnihila]

[2:125] We have rendered the shrine (the Ka`aba) a focal point for the people, and a safe sanctuary. You may use Abraham's shrine as a prayer house. We commissioned Abraham and Ismail: "You shall purify My house for those who visit, those who live there, and those who bow and prostrate."


Why did they build the Kaba? See Exodus 20:4 - 5 I know You muslims take this verse very serious so what are Kaba so different?
What is the different between the Kaba and the Gold calf Exodus 32:1 - 35
Kaba aren`t a house what I know either

2:127] As Abraham raised the foundations of the shrine, together with Ismail (they prayed): "Our Lord, accept this from us. You are the Hearer, the Omniscient

When I read "Abraham shrine" I feel that is something wrong here.Why? Always in the Bible when peole take the honour to make something but that was God then God discipline see for example Numbers 20:1 -13, 22 - 29

How are you Rut first of all then I will try to answer your questions:

In heaen the angels are worshipping Allah by going around a certain place in heaven to praise Allah and to worship Him. This place is directly above The earthly Kaba.
How this certain place was discovered?
When Adam (PBUH) went down from Heaven , he missed the praising for Allah and he cried for missing the angels doing this and Allah has sent a Pearl from Heaven as a House to worship Allah in that certain area under the kaba. And Adam (PBUH) was happy after finding a reminder of Heaven.And after the flood that place was covered and no one knows where it was. So, for Abraham (PBUH) when Allah ordered him to build the Kaba above that place of the Pearl. He didn't know exactly where the place is.So, Allah has sent the angels to move the sand with their wings to show the top of the Pearl for Abraham (PBUH) to build above it.
So Muslims going around the kaba and praising Allah is like angels doing the same in Heaven and also going around the Kaba is showing the perfection of the universe. If you look at Makkah according to the world it is in the center of the earth.
The Kaba itself is not the aim but what's the important is having a Holy place to gather all people to worship Allah.And as I told you that why that place in particular was chosen for the spot that is under the Heavenly place for angels to worship Allah.

I am wondering if the Muslims move around the kaba is the same way the earth moves??? I mean in the same direction?
Allah is protecting his earth and his people by praising Him cause if we don't praise the Almighty and thank Him , he will creat other people to praise Him more that He is the Only one to be praised.
Look at the Prayer call it doesn't stop all through the day which is also reminding us of people going around the earth and this is showing how persfect the Almighty is and His creations.

 

[Rut]

How are you Rut first of all then I will try to answer your questions:

In heaen the angels are worshipping Allah by going around a certain place in heaven to praise Allah and to worship Him. This place is directly above The earthly Kaba.
How this certain place was discovered?
When Adam (PBUH) went down from Heaven , he missed the praising for Allah and he cried for missing the angels doing this and Allah has sent a Pearl from Heaven as a House to worship Allah in that certain area under the kaba. And Adam (PBUH) was happy after finding a reminder of Heaven.And after the flood that place was covered and no one knows where it was. So, for Abraham (PBUH) when Allah ordered him to build the Kaba above that place of the Pearl. He didn't know exactly where the place is.So, Allah has sent the angels to move the sand with their wings to show the top of the Pearl for Abraham (PBUH) to build above it.
So Muslims going around the kaba and praising Allah is like angels doing the same in Heaven and also going around the Kaba is showing the perfection of the universe. If you look at Makkah according to the world it is in the center of the earth.
The Kaba itself is not the aim but what's the important is having a Holy place to gather all people to worship Allah.And as I told you that why that place in particular was chosen for the spot that is under the Heavenly place for angels to worship Allah.

I am wondering if the Muslims move around the kaba is the same way the earth moves??? I mean in the same direction?
Allah is protecting his earth and his people by praising Him cause if we don't praise the Almighty and thank Him , he will creat other people to praise Him more that He is the Only one to be praised.
Look at the Prayer call it doesn't stop all through the day which is also reminding us of people going around the earth and this is showing how persfect the Almighty is and His creations.

I`m fine dnhila I hope you are so too
Thank you for the reply.That what you told me many question come up in my mind.
What I understand You muslims have hard time to understand that Jesus have been up to heaven before he was here on earth, correct? Why is it easier to understand that Adam have been there? Was Eve there too? When Adam came to the earth where did Allah (swt) sat him? Was it in Saudi Arabia where Mecca is?

 

[Sayan]

May God guide us all on the straight path. Ameen. To all my muslim brothers and sisters may Allah reward you for your efforts. A little piece of advice... As Muslims we know that all the prophets preached the same message of Islam whether they called it Islam or not. We also know that sadly their messages and scriptures have been distorted. Please try not to compare aspects in Islam with aspects in other faiths unless it is boldly understandable. Let us leave this for qualified scholars. I am saying this because I know that Christians are well versed in their scriptures which we don't have tafseer of and thus can confuse us and put our beliefs at risk. Islam is CLEAR! Islam is TRUE! Speak of the Islamic point and if the disbelievers still do n0t believe it is a matter between them and God almighty. Remember ONLY GOD GUIDES WHOM HE WILLS!
Salaams

 

[Rut]

May God guide us all on the straight path. Ameen. To all my muslim brothers and sisters may Allah reward you for your efforts. A little piece of advice... As Muslims we know that all the prophets preached the same message of Islam whether they called it Islam or not. We also know that sadly their messages and scriptures have been distorted. Please try not to compare aspects in Islam with aspects in other faiths unless it is boldly understandable. Let us leave this for qualified scholars. I am saying this because I know that Christians are well versed in their scriptures which we don't have tafseer of and thus can confuse us and put our beliefs at risk. Islam is CLEAR! Islam is TRUE! Speak of the Islamic point and if the disbelievers still do n0t believe it is a matter between them and God almighty. Remember ONLY GOD GUIDES WHOM HE WILLS!
Salaams

Salaam

I think this are little unfair (anyway on me) I want to understand Islam and how you muslims think.yes maybe I can my scriptures but I think that`s what God wants.So shouldn`t muslims could defense the faith or explain things? Jesus said that we christians should go out in the world and tell about God.That shows that it not need to be a scholar to teach people about the faith.I can`t help that I`m a person that always ask why? why? When I want to believe in something I want that shall be logical and I think God wants that we understand him too
Maybe I babbling only know but I hope you get a idea what i think

 

[Oxy2Hydr0]

Muslim Claim :
ov.rei be.e.mek ha.ba.kha ma.yan ye.shi.tu.hu gam-be.ra.khot ya.te mo.re:

As they pass through the Valley of Baca, they make it a place of springs; the autumn rains also cover it with pools.
(Psalm 84:6)

However, what we have to ask our selves is what does ha.ba.kha mean? Well, let us see where his is used elsewhere within the Bible.

va.yish.al od da.vid be.lo.him va.yo.mer lo ha.e.lo.him lo ta.a.le a.kha.rei.hem ha.sev me.a.lei.hem u.va.ta la.hem mi.mul ha.be.kha.im:

so David inquired of God again, and God answered him, "Do not go straight up, but circle around them and attack them in front of the balsam trees. (1 Chronicles 14:14)

Amazing, now your trying to learn Hebrew and doing a terrible job it :

1 Chronicles 14:14

וַיִּשְׁאַל עוֹד דָּוִיד, בֵּאלֹהִים, וַיֹּאמֶר לוֹ הָאֱלֹהִים, לֹא תַעֲלֶה אַחֲרֵיהֶם: הָסֵב, מֵעֲלֵיהֶם, וּבָאתָ לָהֶם, מִמּוּל הַבְּכָאִים.​

הַבְּכָאִים = HBCAYM

Spelling = Hay, Bet, Chaf, Aleph, Yud, Mem

Pronounced = ebcaim, or bicaim (the hay (e) consonant is grammatical not part of the word)

Meaning = Mulberry or balsam trees http://www.studylight.org/lex/heb/view.cgi?number=01057

Psalms 84:7

עֹבְרֵי, בְּעֵמֶק הַבָּכָא-- מַעְיָן יְשִׁיתוּהוּ;
גַּם-בְּרָכוֹת, יַעְטֶה מוֹרֶה.​

הַבָּכָא = HBCA

Spelling = Hay, Bet, Cha, Aleph

Pronounced = ebaca, or baca (the hay (e) consonant is grammatical not part of the word)

Meaning = weaping, wailing, lamenting http://www.studylight.org/lex/heb/view.cgi?number=01056

1) they are different in word cluster as nouns

2) bicaim is plural and baca is singular

2) They have complete opposite meanings

3) they are pronounced differently

Again you have got alot to learn about the semitic language.

The former name of the Valley of Makkah was called Bakkah :

Q 3:96

إِنَّ أَوَّلَ بَيْتٍ وُضِعَ لِلنَّاسِ لَلَّذِي بِبَكَّةَ مُبَارَكًا وَهُدًى لِّلْعَالَمِينَ​

Verily the first house (Ka'abah) appointed for mankind is indeed that which is the blessed Bakkah as a guidance for all nations


1) Modern day Makkah was formerly called Bakkah as identified in the Quran

2) In Bakkah there is a house of worship in which pilgrimage is performed

3) In Bakkah there are wells and springs that provide drink to the pilgrimages

4) the pilgrimages appear in a parched place (Zion) before G-d

5) The house in Bakkah has many court yards

6) The Arabic name Bakkah means a place of weaping which come from the semitic root baka that means to weap, wail, or lament

7) The Hebrew name Baca means weaping, wailing or lamenting which is derived from the semtic root bakah http://www.studylight.org/isb/view.cgi?number=001058 that means to weap, wail, or lament.

What you need to do rather than playing backflip symantics with a langauge you dont even understand is to show us proof where this Valley of Baca is at that formly existed a House of worship, it was a passage for pilgrimages, with wells or springs of waters, and has courts yards.

You wont be able to cause no such location existed in Palestine to which your commentors suggest, it is mere speculation.

 

[Oxy2Hydr0]

When I have read this during the night it come up a question about this.
if that was so why must the Israeli build a Temple for nearly thge same reason?

I already asnwered this simular question with kjf512 :

1) ......During the time of the Jews Makkah was already inhabited, and the Ka'abah was defiled by idols. G-d lead them to a place of safety after being inslaved in Egypt to which a new house was built exclusively to be used by them and for it to be maintianed by.

Makkah is 4 times the distance to travel from the land which they were established in.

Why take them all the way to house in Makkah which was already inhabited and defiled ? Dont you think it would have been better for teh Jews to jus start fresh ? Did you ever think if they went to Makkah tehy would have been lead into idolatry by the Makkan pagan just like how they were lead into it even after starting fresh ?

If you sitting there strying to figure our why would go do this and that, have you not been told this in your own book ?:

Isaiah 55:8

"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways," declares the LORD.

So why are you trying to make sense out of the actions of G-d based on human rational acts ?

If you say "why this ?" you will have to also ask "why that ?"

 

[ShyMuslim]

Amazing, now your trying to learn Hebrew and doing a terrible job it :

1 Chronicles 14:14

וַיִּשְׁאַל עוֹד דָּוִיד, בֵּאלֹהִים, וַיֹּאמֶר לוֹ הָאֱלֹהִים, לֹא תַעֲלֶה אַחֲרֵיהֶם: הָסֵב, מֵעֲלֵיהֶם, וּבָאתָ לָהֶם, מִמּוּל הַבְּכָאִים.​

הַבְּכָאִים = HBCAYM

Spelling = Hay, Bet, Chaf, Aleph, Yud, Mem

Pronounced = ebcaim, or bicaim (the hay (e) consonant is grammatical not part of the word)

Meaning = Mulberry or balsam trees http://www.studylight.org/lex/heb/view.cgi?number=01057

Psalms 84:7

עֹבְרֵי, בְּעֵמֶק הַבָּכָא-- מַעְיָן יְשִׁיתוּהוּ;
גַּם-בְּרָכוֹת, יַעְטֶה מוֹרֶה.​

הַבָּכָא = HBCA

Spelling = Hay, Bet, Cha, Aleph

Pronounced = ebaca, or baca (the hay (e) consonant is grammatical not part of the word)

Meaning = weaping, wailing, lamenting http://www.studylight.org/lex/heb/view.cgi?number=01056

1) they are different in word cluster as nouns

2) bicaim is plural and baca is singular

2) They have complete opposite meanings

3) they are pronounced differently

Again you have got alot to learn about the semitic language.

The former name of the Valley of Makkah was called Bakkah :

Q 3:96

إِنَّ أَوَّلَ بَيْتٍ وُضِعَ لِلنَّاسِ لَلَّذِي بِبَكَّةَ مُبَارَكًا وَهُدًى لِّلْعَالَمِينَ​

Verily the first house (Ka'abah) appointed for mankind is indeed that which is the blessed Bakkah as a guidance for all nations


1) Modern day Makkah was formerly called Bakkah as identified in the Quran

2) In Bakkah there is a house of worship in which pilgrimage is performed

3) In Bakkah there are wells and springs that provide drink to the pilgrimages

4) the pilgrimages appear in a parched place (Zion) before G-d

5) The house in Bakkah has many court yards

6) The Arabic name Bakkah means a place of weaping which come from the semitic root baka that means to weap, wail, or lament

7) The Hebrew name Baca means weaping, wailing or lamenting which is derived from the semtic root bakah http://www.studylight.org/isb/view.cgi?number=001058 that means to weap, wail, or lament.

What you need to do rather than playing backflip symantics with a langauge you dont even understand is to show us proof where this Valley of Baca is at that formly existed a House of worship, it was a passage for pilgrimages, with wells or springs of waters, and has courts yards.

You wont be able to cause no such location existed in Palestine to which your commentors suggest, it is mere speculation.

Mashallah brother!

~Sarah

 

[Oxy2Hydr0]

Why say it in the Bible that even the Christian shall be in the spirital Tempel?

You wanted to know about the history of the ka'abah so we gave you what is available. The OP is not about what temple, mosque or church is more important than the other.

th concept of "Spritual Tempel" is a Christian exergesis and interpration of Biblical scripture highly opposed to Jews interpration. So it would not be wise not to ask someone about some based on rational perspective thought that the other does not believe in.

 

[Oxy2Hydr0]

My apologies to Brother Oxy if I hijacked this post for a short while. (I just cannot resist discussing this with the great kjf):

Its all ok bro, I am sure when one of them see the oportunity to jump in they will. This is an open debate so do what you must fee sabeelillah

 

[français]

My apologies to Brother Oxy if I hijacked this post for a short while. (I just cannot resist discussing this with the great kjf):


Fair enough, if you want to use the concordance to the Baca.

However, since the word 'Baca' is being scrutinised here, can you please explain to us why the various standard bibles used the word "Baca" instead of 'balsam trees'?

The New International Version, the New American Standard Version, the New King James Version, New Revised Standard Version, Holman Christian Standard Version, etc used "Baca" in Psalms 84:6.

It is obvious that the passage and the context would suggest it to be a place instead of a 'balsam tree'.



The passage suggests a pilgrimage who passed the valley of Baca. Which Jewish pilgrimage takes the pilgrims to the Valley of Baca?

Where do you think then is the Valley of Baca, if it is not Mecca?


This is why I really enjoy my discussions with you.

Tell me, kjf, if Psalms is written about King David, how then was the Temple already built?

... that's all I need to ask kjf.

Back to you, Brother Oxy.

Let me just give you a short and sweet answes lol - It is referred to as a baca, because baca is a valley of willow trees.

 

[français]

1 Chronicles 14:14

וַיִּשְׁאַל עוֹד דָּוִיד, בֵּאלֹהִים, וַיֹּאמֶר לוֹ הָאֱלֹהִים, לֹא תַעֲלֶה אַחֲרֵיהֶם: הָסֵב, מֵעֲלֵיהֶם, וּבָאתָ לָהֶם, מִמּוּל הַבְּכָאִים.​

הַבְּכָאִים = HBCAYM

Spelling = Hay, Bet, Chaf, Aleph, Yud, Mem

Pronounced = ebcaim, or bicaim (the hay (e) consonant is grammatical not part of the word)

Meaning = Mulberry or balsam trees http://www.studylight.org/lex/heb/view.cgi?number=01057

Psalms 84:7

עֹבְרֵי, בְּעֵמֶק הַבָּכָא-- מַעְיָן יְשִׁיתוּהוּ;
גַּם-בְּרָכוֹת, יַעְטֶה מוֹרֶה.​

הַבָּכָא = HBCA

Spelling = Hay, Bet, Cha, Aleph

Pronounced = ebaca, or baca (the hay (e) consonant is grammatical not part of the word)

Meaning = weaping, wailing, lamenting http://www.studylight.org/lex/heb/view.cgi?number=01056

1) they are different in word cluster as nouns

2) bicaim is plural and baca is singular

Let's stop right there. Ok, so what if one is singular and one is plural? 1 Chronicles is speaking of basalm TREES, saying go around THEM.
Psalm 84 on the other hand is speaking of the VALLEY of bacca.. as in, the VALLEY of trees. Think of Rowe Valley. it is a place with thousands of trees, yet it is called Rowe valley. also, you showed one verse, but not the others.

About the weeping and wailing thing.. I wil;l address this below. but to sum it up here.. Mulberry trees drip sap.. they are known as WEEPING TREES.

2) They have complete opposite meanings

Oh yeah, because God forbid mr. hebrew scholar here knows all.

3) they are pronounced differently

So! It's a semetic language, and many plural, singular, dual, or whatever else might be pronounced differently.

Again you have got alot to learn about the semitic language.

Who are you to tell me what I do and don't, mr. know it all.

The former name of the Valley of Makkah was called Bakkah :

Q 3:96

إِنَّ أَوَّلَ بَيْتٍ وُضِعَ لِلنَّاسِ لَلَّذِي بِبَكَّةَ مُبَارَكًا وَهُدًى لِّلْعَالَمِينَ​

Verily the first house (Ka'abah) appointed for mankind is indeed that which is the blessed Bakkah as a guidance for all nations

The qu'ran calls it bakkah. But I have yet to see any other no nquranig source that calls it such. Plus, there is still an argument about what the verse is really talking about.
This fits the passage well in context: Sura 3:96 preaches to Jews, saying that God has revealed to Muhammed the true religion of Abraham, according to the Torah was the first Jew. According to the Muslims Adam was the first prophet and the first Muslim. Abraham for the Muslims is a prophet, a messenger, and a Muslim not a Jew. Under Luxemberg's interpretation, the passage may be emphasizing the similarities of the religions and their abstract concepts of God and holiness (Something they did not share with religions that accepted idol and personal or local gods).

1) Modern day Makkah was formerly called Bakkah as identified in the Quran

^

2) In Bakkah there is a house of worship in which pilgrimage is performed

So what?

3) In Bakkah there are wells and springs that provide drink to the pilgrimages

Addressed below

4) the pilgrimages appear in a parched place (Zion) before G-d

Ok this is saying they see God on Zion. That means that they were in Jerusalem. Now why would they go all the way out of their way to go to some freaking backkward city, and then go all the way back to Jerusalem? My goodness.

5) The house in Bakkah has many court yards

Haha I'm sure it does. I bet they hang people and behead people there every Friday too, huh?

6) The Arabic name Bakkah means a place of weaping which come from the semitic root baka that means to weap, wail, or lament

So?

7) The Hebrew name Baca means weaping, wailing or lamenting which is derived from the semtic root bakah http://www.studylight.org/isb/view.cgi?number=001058 that means to weap, wail, or lament.

And?

What you need to do rather than playing backflip symantics with a langauge you dont even understand is to show us proof where this Valley of Baca is at that formly existed a House of worship, it was a passage for pilgrimages, with wells or springs of waters, and has courts yards.

You wont be able to cause no such location existed in Palestine to which your commentors suggest, it is mere speculation.[/quote]
Ok, I don't guess you understand what Psalm 84 is talking about do you? They are GOING TO THE TEMPLE IN JERUSALEM AND THEY PASS THROUGH THE VALLEY OF BACCA.

84:6 As they pass through the Baca Valley,
84:7 They are sustained as they travel along;

each one appears before God in Zion.


84:4 How blessed are those who live in your temple
and praise you continually! (Selah)

akb baka'

Pronunciation:baw-kaw' Origin:the same as 01056 Reference:TWOT - 242 PrtSpch:noun masculine In AV:mulberry tree 4, Baca 1 Count:5 Definition:1) balsam tree - a shrub which drips sap when it is cut
2) possible name of a vale of balsam trees in \\#Ps 84:6\\ the same as 1056; the weeping tree (some gum- distilling
tree, perhaps the balsam):-mulberry tree.
see HEBREW for 01056THEY ARE THE SAME MEANING. The mulberry tree WEEPS SAP

Oh yippie, look who answered me! Mr. oxy2hydro, the dude who claims that the "gospel of barnabas" is authentic, and who can't even translate right himself! Haha, I saved the "debate" you and me had, and a muslim corrected some of your errors. Allow me to show you one..

Q 75.37


أَلَمْ يَكُ نُطْفَةً مِّن مَّنِيٍّ يُمْنَى

thumma yaku nutfatan min maniyyin yumnaa

THEN HE SAID: Are you sure he speaks Arabic?,

now I wanted to reply to his post, however in the first 3 lines above I discovered a mistake that has to be by someone who does not speak Arabic at all

this was enough to put me off and dismiss his comment

 

[Islam_mulia]

Let me just give you a short and sweet answes lol - It is referred to as a baca, because baca is a valley of willow trees.

Your 'sweet answers' did not answer my questions.

1. From 'balsam trees' to 'willow trees' and what's next - why did most of the standard bibles used 'Baca' instead? The context and the proper usage of the word only implies that it was referring to a place, called a Valley of Baca, and this is heavily supported by most bible translations.... but not the translation according to kjf. But seriously, pls reply to this question.

2. The passage talks about 'pilgrimage' and you wonder

Ok this is saying they see God on Zion. That means that they were in Jerusalem. Now why would they go all the way out of their way to go to some freaking backkward city, and then go all the way back to Jerusalem? My goodness.

Firstly, how did Jerusalem comes into the picture? You made a big blunder by saying initially that the pilgrims' destination was Zion and you equate Zion with the Temple of Jerusalem, and we know very well the Temple was not built yet!

Secondly, as you agreed the passage was about pilgrimage, why would the Jews make a pilgrimage to Zion (you say Jerusalem) when the Temple was not built yet?

Furthermore, if the passage talks about Baca and wailing, lamneting, etc... which Jewish pilgrimage (which is associated with 'festivals' and the Jewish 'hag') entails weeping and lamenting? Please answer me.

Thirdly, Muslims identified Baca with Mecca and how, as Brother Oxy mentioned, the passage refers to Mecca:

) Modern day Makkah was formerly called Bakkah as identified in the Quran

2) In Bakkah there is a house of worship in which pilgrimage is performed

3) In Bakkah there are wells and springs that provide drink to the pilgrimages

4) the pilgrimages appear in a parched place (Zion) before G-d

5) The house in Bakkah has many court yards

6) The Arabic name Bakkah means a place of weaping which come from the semitic root baka that means to weap, wail, or lament

7) The Hebrew name Baca means weaping, wailing or lamenting which is derived from the semtic root bakah http://www.studylight.org/isb/view.cgi?number=001058 that means to weap, wail, or lament.

You mentioned Baca refers to Palestin. Where is your support for this guesswork?

As I wrote earlier, I am always tempted to discuss matters with you as I have seen the shallowness of your replies. Hence, I would appreciate it very much if you reply to my questions above.

 

[français]

Your 'sweet answers' did not answer my questions.

Yes it did, you just don't want to believe it.

1. From 'balsam trees' to 'willow trees' and what's next - why did most of the standard bibles used 'Baca' instead? The context and the proper usage of the word only implies that it was referring to a place, called a Valley of Baca, and this is heavily supported by most bible translations.... but not the translation according to kjf. But seriously, pls reply to this question.

The valley of bacca is a valley of willow rees. bvacca means weeping. mulberry trees weep sap if you tap them. That is what it is speaking of, and that is why it used valley of baca instead of whatever else.

2. The passage talks about 'pilgrimage' and you wonder

yes, pilgrimage to Zion. Zion is Jerusalem. read the Bible

Firstly, how did Jerusalem comes into the picture? You made a big blunder by saying initially that the pilgrims' destination was Zion and you equate Zion with the Temple of Jerusalem, and we know very well the Temple was not built yet!

Jerusalem is Zion.
Btw, this was not written by David. it was written by the Korahites.

Secondly, as you agreed the passage was about pilgrimage, why would the Jews make a pilgrimage to Zion (you say Jerusalem) when the Temple was not built yet?

^

Furthermore, if the passage talks about Baca and wailing, lamneting, etc... which Jewish pilgrimage (which is associated with 'festivals' and the Jewish 'hag') entails weeping and lamenting? Please answer me.

the Korahites went through a valley of mulberry trees to get to their pilgrimage to Jerusalem.

Thirdly, Muslims identified Baca with Mecca and how, as Brother Oxy mentioned, the passage refers to Mecca:

It is NOT talking about mecca though. My gosh, people need to quit being so damn stupid and face the freaking facts. IT IS TALKING ABOUT A FREAKING PILGRIMAGE TO ZION. ZION=JERUSALEM. IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH MECCA, SO STOP TWISTING OUR SCRIPTURES TO TRY AND FIT YOUR FALSE PAGAN MYTH RELIGION.

You mentioned Baca refers to Palestin. Where is your support for this guesswork?

It is prolly somewhere near palestine. I will post an article about it.

As I wrote earlier, I am always tempted to discuss matters with you as I have seen the shallowness of your replies

Which is precisely why I am going to use the forum controls to block you, so i will no longer see your posts


now, to the article i was going to post.
Psalms 84:6 "Who passing through the valley of Baca make it a well; the rain also filleth the pools."
Problem: This Psalm describes pilgrims ascending to the house of God and in verse six tells us that they pass through the valley of Baca. In Q 3:96 the word Bakka appears as a name for Mecca. They identify the well in Psalm 84:6 with the well Zam-zam in Mecca which has ritual significance during the Hajj. On the strength of this, Moslems assert that this Psalm is a description of pilgrims going to Mecca for the Hajj. The argument that stems from this assertion is that because the Psalm was written considerably before the time of Christ, this would show that Mecca was a center of pilgrimage to the true God long before the time of Muhammad, which would hence support Moslem claims that Abraham founded the Ka'bah.
Solution:

1. 
   [*]The word Baca occurs rarely in the Bible; it is also found in 2 Samuel 5:23,24 and 1 Chronicles 14:14,15 where it identifies a valley in which David fought the Philistines. The word Baka describes a bush, probably a Balsam bush but translated in the AV as a mulberry tree.
   [*]In 2 Samuel and 1 Chronicles the valley of Baka is a valley full of balsam bushes near the valley of Rephaim. This is to the southwest of Jerusalem and forms an approach route to the city. The Philistines encamped in Rephaim to attack Jerusalem (2 Samuel 5:17,18), which shows that it is not in Arabia and David attacked Philistines who were encamped in the valley of Rephaim from the Valley of Baca (2 Sam. 5:23,24; 1 Chron. 14:14,15). Therefore the valley of Baka is near Jerusalem. It is clearly not in Arabia.
   [*]Psalm 84:6 describes a well made by the pilgrims. The well Zam-zam in Mecca was not made by pilgrims.
   [*]The valley is filled with pools of water by the rains. Mecca is very dry all the year round; it virtually never finds itself surrounded by pools of standing water left by rains.
   [*]The end of the pilgrimage is Zion (v. 7). This is, of course, Jerusalem and not Mecca.
   [*]The Psalm is in praise of the house of God (the temple) in Jerusalem. Verses 5-7 describe the last part of the ascent of pilgrims to this house; the particular pilgrims ascend from the south west through the valley of Baca.

 

[Islam_mulia]

1. The end of the pilgrimage is Zion (v. 7). This is, of course, Jerusalem and not Mecca.
2. The Psalm is in praise of the house of God (the temple) in Jerusalem. Verses 5-7 describe the last part of the ascent of pilgrims to this house; the particular pilgrims ascend from the south west through the valley of Baca.

Very quickly,

1) What Jewish pilgrimage entails the Jews to go to the Valley of Baca until it ends at Jerusalem. I have read the Jewish festivals/pilgrimage/hag but never come across such ritual. So far, you have conveniently passed/jumped this question.

2) Once again, the Temple was not built at the time of King David. Notwithstanding who wrote the current Psalms, it was about King David (unless you can come with new ideas of who the book was talking about). Now, why would the author mentioned a pilgrimage that ends at Jerusalem when there was no Temple there?

3) I am still waiting for your scholarly presentation of the place of Baca, which you claimed is at Palestin. Please show me exactly on a map, where you think is the Valley of Baca.

 

[Oxy2Hydr0]

Ok, I don't guess you understand what Psalm 84 is talking about do you? They are GOING TO THE TEMPLE IN JERUSALEM AND THEY PASS THROUGH THE VALLEY OF BACCA.

The passage makes no mention of Jerusalem, and there is no Valley called Baca in Jerusalem. You still have yet to produce proof of a map showing the location of Baca as you claim is in Jerusalem

And yes the muslims when making Hajj ie the Pilgrimage do pass through the Valley of Bakkah, an then they proceed to Mina then to Arafat and then return back to the Valley of Bakkah. http://www.religioustolerance.org/isla1.htm

84:6 As they pass through the Baca Valley,
84:7 They are sustained as they travel along;

each one appears before God in Zion.

Again muslim pilgrims pass through the valley of Bakkah and then proceed to the desert or parched place known as Mina and Arafat.

Since you like to manipulate words so much the word Zion means desert or parched place

84:4 How blessed are those who live in your temple
and praise you continually! (Selah)

There are many muslim that LIVE on the site of Masjid in Bakkah. There are the custodian.

Pronunciation:baw-kaw' Origin:the same as 01056 Reference:TWOT - 242 PrtSpch:noun masculine In AV:mulberry tree 4, Baca 1 Count:5 Definition:1) balsam tree - a shrub which drips sap when it is cut
2) possible name of a vale of balsam trees in \\#Ps 84:6\\ the same as 1056; the weeping tree (some gum- distilling
tree, perhaps the balsam):-mulberry tree.
see HEBREW for 01056THEY ARE THE SAME MEANING. The mulberry tree WEEPS SAP

In your imagination they mean the samething. Your interlinear concordance dictionary seperates the two words in meaning

bicaim is defined only as a balsam tree - a shrub which drips sap when it is cut http://www.studylight.org/lex/heb/view.cgi?number=01057

Baca = "weeping" http://www.studylight.org/lex/heb/view.cgi?number=01056

As you said, the tree more than likely got the name per the action of the sap that falls like tears from it when cut.

This is no different from world like Matar and Mataar. These two words are derived from the same root but mean two different things.

Matar means "Rain"

Mataar means "Airport"

Bicaim means "Mulberry tree(s)"

Baca means "Weaping"

The word Matar does not mean both Rain and Airport, nor does Baca mean both weaping, and Mulberry. You have a long to understand teh semitic language kid.

Also if Psalms 84:7 meant Mulberry it would rendered the word in PLURAL

"Who passing through the valley of mulberry tree make it a well; the rain also filleth the pools"

or

"Who passing through the valley of weaping make it a well; the rain also filleth the pools"

What sense does this make with your invention ?

If it meant Mulberry it would have state this :

"Who passing through the valley of mulberry trees (bicaim) make it a well; the rain also filleth the pools"

Oh yippie, look who answered me! Mr. oxy2hydro, the dude who claims that the "gospel of barnabas" is authentic,

I never told you anything about the Gospel of Baranabas is authentic. It is a forgery just like the surrent Canon Gospels. Again your imagining me saying something I never say.

and who can't even translate right himself! Haha, I saved the "debate" you and me had, and a muslim corrected some of your errors. Allow me to show you one..

Q 75.37


أَلَمْ يَكُ نُطْفَةً مِّن مَّنِيٍّ يُمْنَى

thumma yaku nutfatan min maniyyin yumnaa

THEN HE SAID: Are you sure he speaks Arabic?,

now I wanted to reply to his post, however in the first 3 lines above I discovered a mistake that has to be by someone who does not speak Arabic at all

this was enough to put me off and dismiss his comment

First of all, I dont know where you got thumma from, and you didnt get it from me. The Arabic reads:

alam yaku nutfatam-mim-maniyyin yumnaa

"was he not a Nutfah from sperm emitted ?"

You quoted me wrong to them.

Why dont you invite them, or better yet tell me where I can join the group, just send the info to my message box. Knowing your habit of misquoting people and sources its not hard to believe that you present this on a flip end, just like you just stated that I said the Gospel of Baranabas was authentic, how silly, every Senior Christian on CF here that has known my debates on this issue knows I look at the Gospel of Baranabas as a fraud just like Canon Gospels.

 

[français]

The passage makes no mention of Jerusalem, and there is no Valley called Baca in Jerusalem. You still have yet to produce proof of a map showing the location of Baca as you claim is in Jerusalem

It makes no mention of mecca either. Now tell me.. is bacca the word for mecca in hebrew?

And yes the muslims when making Hajj ie the Pilgrimage do pass through the Valley of Bakkah, an then they proceed to Mina then to Arafat and then return back to the Valley of Bakkah. http://www.religioustolerance.org/isla1.htm

yup, but this is talking about the Koahites pilgrimage to JERUSALEM. it's speaking of the KOAHITES.

Again muslim pilgrims pass through the valley of Bakkah and then proceed to the desert or parched place known as Mina and Arafat.

has arafat ever been referred to as zion?

Since you like to manipulate words so much the word Zion means desert or parched place

in the Bible, it means Jerusalem.
Zi·on

/ˈzaɪ

ən/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[zahy-uh

n] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation –noun 1.a hill in Jerusalem, on which the Temple was built (used to symbolize the city itself, esp. as a religious or spiritual center). 2.the Jewish people. 3.Palestine as the Jewish homeland and symbol of Judaism.
Zion came to designate the area of Jerusalem where the fortress stood, and later became a metonym for Solomon's Temple in Jerusalem, the city of Jerusalem and the entire Promised Land to come, in which, according to the Hebrew Bible, God dwells among his chosen people.

There are many muslim that LIVE on the site of Masjid in Bakkah. There are the custodian.

Tell me.. does anyone live at the hajj? nope.

In your imagination they mean the samething. Your interlinear concordance dictionary seperates the two words in meaning

bicaim is defined only as a balsam tree - a shrub which drips sap when it is cut http://www.studylight.org/lex/heb/view.cgi?number=01057

Baca = "weeping" http://www.studylight.org/lex/heb/view.cgi?number=01056

As you said, the tree more than likely got the name per the action of the sap that falls like tears from it when cut.
This is no different from world like Matar and Mataar. These two words are derived from the same root but mean two different things.

Matar means "Rain"

Mataar means "Airport"

Bicaim means "Mulberry tree(s)"

Baca means "Weaping"

The word Matar does not mean both Rain and Airport, nor does Baca mean both weaping, and Mulberry. You have a long to understand teh semitic language kid.

1. Quit calling me kid
2. we're not discussing matar here.

Also if Psalms 84:7 meant Mulberry it would rendered the word in PLURAL

"Who passing through the valley of mulberry tree make it a well; the rain also filleth the pools"

or

"Who passing through the valley of weaping make it a well; the rain also filleth the pools"

What sense does this make with your invention ?

If it meant Mulberry it would have state this :

"Who passing through the valley of mulberry trees (bicaim) make it a well; the rain also filleth the pools"

Ok, so let's accept that it means weeping. That still does not mean mecca. It could mean anywhere near Jerusalem

I never told you anything about the Gospel of Baranabas is authentic. It is a forgery just like the surrent Canon Gospels. Again your imagining me saying something I never say.

Yes you did. in that discussion that we had and ther admins deleted it, you said that I denied the "gospel of barnabas." And i LOLed you

First of all, I dont know where you got thumma from, and you didnt get it from me. The Arabic reads:

alam yaku nutfatam-mim-maniyyin yumnaa

"was he not a Nutfah from sperm emitted ?"

You quoted me wrong to them.

Hah, you think i forged it? NO! I saved it. and that's what it said. looks like you made a mistake!

Why dont you invite them, or better yet tell me where I can join the group, just send the info to my message box. Knowing your habit of misquoting people and sources its not hard to believe that you present this on a flip end, just like you just stated that I said the Gospel of Baranabas was authentic, how silly, every Senior Christian on CF here that has known my debates on this issue knows I look at the Gospel of Baranabas as a fraud just like Canon Gospels.

that's just what I need.. your annoying self at another forum. no thanks.

 

[français]

btw, there is a place in Israel that is known as [SIZE=-1]Emek Habacha {Emek Habacha} it is known now as "The Valley of TEARS" or "The VALE of TEARS"

http://www.aish.com/purimthemes/purimthemesdefault/Purim_in_the_Valley_of_Tears.asp

There is also a place called "bekaa valley" in LEBANON

[/SIZE]

 

[français]

AND there are springs!

 

[Oxy2Hydr0]

the Korahites went through a valley of mulberry trees to get to their pilgrimage to Jerusalem.

Where do you see ebcaim, plural, Psalms 84:7 ?

The verse says pilgrims passing through the valley of ebaca (singular), not ebcaim (plural).

You just took a singular word and made it plural when the text does not introduce such an idea.