Romans2 (and predestination)

[Markea]

It is true that all mankind in Adam are a fallen mass deserving of destruction ...... yet , Romans 9 , vessels /potter is dealing with what God (the potter) makes out of fallen mankind (clay) some vessels for mercy , others are made for (a purpose is useful) destruction in order to display both mercy and Justice.

And He has concluded all in unbelief.. whether Jew or Gentile.. and He has mercy upon all..

His grace extends UNTO ALL and it is UPON ALL those that receive Him..

Some reject the free gift of salvation.. those who receive the free gift are accepted in Him.. in the beloved Son of God.. our Saviour and Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Markea]

We're even told why this has happened to many in Israel.. it's not as though the word of God had no effect.. or that they did not know..

It says plainly that they tried to establish their own righteousness, rather than SUBMIT to the righteousness of God which is by faith..

 

[cygnusx1]

And He has concluded all in unbelief.. whether Jew or Gentile.. and He has mercy upon all..

His grace extends UNTO ALL and it is UPON ALL those that receive Him..

Some reject the free gift of salvation.. those who receive the free gift are accepted in Him.. in the beloved Son of God.. our Saviour and Lord Jesus Christ.

"all" in context does not and cannot mean every single person , instead it means Jew and Gentile ... Pharoah was not shown mercy !

Romans 9 speaks of God having mercy on some and hardening OTHERS !

 

[frumanchu]

We're even told why this has happened to many in Israel.. it's not as though the word of God had no effect.. or that they did not know..

It says plainly that they tried to establish their own righteousness, rather than SUBMIT to the righteousness of God which is by faith..

It says even more plainly why it was that some received the Word of the Lord and obeyed while others were rejecting it:

"So the couriers went from city to city through the country of Ephraim and Manasseh, and as far as Zebulun, but they laughed them to scorn and mocked them. However, some men of Asher, of Manasseh, and of Zebulun humbled themselves and came to Jerusalem. The hand of God was ALSO on Judah to give them one heart to do what the king and the princes commanded by the word of the LORD." - 2 Chron 30:10-12 (ESV - emph added)

 

[Rick Otto]

to destruction.
the ones IN Christ since before creation, by determinate council, foreseeing each individual & their personal circumstances, respecting none but having mercy on on those IN Christ, so that like the verse we discussed said, the redemption is like the transgression - it affects only those IN the transgressor & IN The Redeemer.
God didn't put everyone IN Christ before creation, allowing some to experience condemnation.
Totaly sovereign = totaly predestined. Freedom of the will is a myth. I like the way Bob Dylan put it,"It may be the devil, or it may be The Lord, but you're gonna have to serve somebody".

 

[Markea]

I like the way Bob Dylan put it,"It may be the devil, or it may be The Lord, but you're gonna have to serve somebody".

You just keep listenin to Bob.. lol

 

[Markea]

"all" in context does not and cannot mean every single person , instead it means Jew and Gentile ... Pharoah was not shown mercy !

I know, I know.. all doesn't mean all.. it means some.. When the scriptures say that He has reconciled all things unto Himself.. it doesn't mean all things.. whether they be in earth, or in heaven.. it only means what God has enabled a calvinist to believe that it means..

Romans 9 speaks of God having mercy on some and hardening OTHERS !

Romans 9 is about election.. in that it's not according to the flesh, but of the promise... and it's perfectly consistent with the previous chapters of Romans.. where it says that ALL in Adam are condemned, and that ALL in Adam may be justified freely through Christ.. who is the last Adam..

But shall we beat the horse some more..

No thanks..

 

[Markea]

It says even more plainly why it was that some received the Word of the Lord and obeyed while others were rejecting it:

"So the couriers went from city to city through the country of Ephraim and Manasseh, and as far as Zebulun, but they laughed them to scorn and mocked them. However, some men of Asher, of Manasseh, and of Zebulun humbled themselves and came to Jerusalem. The hand of God was ALSO on Judah to give them one heart to do what the king and the princes commanded by the word of the LORD." - 2 Chron 30:10-12 (ESV - emph added)

Perhaps the emphasis should be on the portion which speaks of these men humbling themselves..

There are plenty of portions of scripture which speak to men receiving the word of God.. ie, the Bereans.. these went to the scriptures to see if what was being preached lined up with the word of God..

IOW.. they used their created capacity to think and to reason.. and to receive the testimony concerning God's Son..

 

[frumanchu]

Perhaps the emphasis should be on the portion which speaks of these men humbling themselves..

Perhaps we should give attention to the whole thing and not just one part.

The clear implication is that those whose God's hand was upon were the ones who humbled themselves.

There are plenty of portions of scripture which speak to men receiving the word of God.. ie, the Bereans.. these went to the scriptures to see if what was being preached lined up with the word of God..

IOW.. they used their created capacity to think and to reason.. and to receive the testimony concerning God's Son..

And Paul makes it clear that the carnal mind is at enmity with God and does not want to understand Him. Fallen man finds the things of God foolish. Unless the Spirit first operate in a man he will never accept the Truth.

 

[Ben johnson]

Excellent posts, Markea. Too bad I can't get the "rep button" to work.

"Predestination" (Calvinism, Reformed Theology, etcetera), is founded on the premise that "man is too depraved to seek God"; therefore God must change his heart FIRST, and THEN (irresistibly) he believes. The sequence of "faith" and "regeneration" is critical to the argument; which comes first?

If "regeneration", then God truly gifts faith to those whom He has sovereignly chosen (even if only consequentially to His predestined-election). And this places God as ACTIVE in man's salvation, while man is PASSIVE.

Two things (at least!) are wrong with that; man is active, not passive; Matt7:24-27 is clear. Peter affirms that several places, like 1:1:9. So do the others. The second thing, is that depraved sinful man CAN believe, per verses like Luke8:13. "They received the Word with joy and believed". Because those in verse 13 later FELL (to persecution/affliction/temptation), the Predestinationist then contends that "it wasn't REAL belief evidenced by their FALLING". Compared to verse 15, either the contention is that "God decides the soil, therefore they persevere or fall because of whether they are 'good soil' or 'rocky soil' ", or that the illustration actually DOES convey "called good BECAUSE of perseverance, or called rocky BECAUSE of falling" --- but still the perception is that the soil state preceded the outcome.

God's position is clearly affirmed in many places; He receives man's faith, He doesn't machinate it. Look at Heb11:6.

Also, in Acts10:34-35, the idea of "partiality" is set opposite to "God receiving (welcoming) those who fear Him and do right". Notice that contextually, "God is not partial", defines "partiality" as "God favoring one who did NOT revere/seek-righteousness". And that is the essence of "predestination" --- that God sovereignly favors a few, whom He elects and then predestines for faith and salvation.

Which comes first, "regeneration" or "faith"? If "made-alive" reflects "regeneration" (and how could it not?), then we were made alive in Christ, through faith WHEN we were dead. That's a critical point; part of Eph2:5 is repeated in Eph2:8 --- "WHEN we were dead in our sins, we were made alive by grace through faith." It's critical that faith is not placed after "made alive".

The "made alive", is BY our faith, not before.

We've debated long and hard on Titus 3:5-6; but Paul said that "regeneration is by the POURED Spirit, Who was poured through Jesus OUR SAVIOR". If we understand that "regeneration-to-us" is by the "poured-on-us-Spirit", and that the Spirit was "poured-through-Jesus-our-Savior", then "Savior" precedes "poured" which precedes "regeneration".

So many passages wrest the decision of faith and repentance with man (like Rom2:2-8), rather than "with God's predestining sovereign election"...

 

[frumanchu]

If "regeneration", then God truly gifts faith to those whom He has sovereignly chosen (even if only consequentially to His predestined-election). And this places God as ACTIVE in man's salvation, while man is PASSIVE.

False. As has been repeatedly explained to you, Reformed Theology views regeneration as monergistic. The faith which results is truly the individual's faith, proceeding from the man's heart that has been made alive by the Spirit.

Let me be explicitly clear on this so that you do not make this mistake again: Reformed Theology teaches that regeneration is monergistic, NOT salvation as a whole.

Please do us the courtesy of not repeating this error.

The second thing, is that depraved sinful man CAN believe, per verses like Luke8:13. "They received the Word with joy and believed". Because those in verse 13 later FELL (to persecution/affliction/temptation), the Predestinationist then contends that "it wasn't REAL belief evidenced by their FALLING". Compared to verse 15, either the contention is that "God decides the soil, therefore they persevere or fall because of whether they are 'good soil' or 'rocky soil' ", or that the illustration actually DOES convey "called good BECAUSE of perseverance, or called rocky BECAUSE of falling" --- but still the perception is that the soil state preceded the outcome.

I will repeat what has been said numerous times. Both Reformed and non-Reformed scholars...those who believe in the doctrine of perseverance and those who reject it...agree that the context of Luke 8:13 plainly indicates that these were people with a superficial believe and not a salvific one. To make comments about God preparing the soil or insistence that the the response somehow had a causal influence on the nature of the soil is pure eisegesis and goes well beyond the intent of the parable.

The Parable of the Sower does not speak either way to the issue of perseverance (a position you at one point accepted, only to go back on your own words).

God's position is clearly affirmed in many places; He receives man's faith, He doesn't machinate it. Look at Heb11:6.

Nothing in Hebrews (or in all of Scripture for that matter) precludes God's sovereignty over the affairs of man. 2 Chron 30 is a clear example of God working to bring about obedience from some and not all.

Also, in Acts10:34-35, the idea of "partiality" is set opposite to "God receiving (welcoming) those who fear Him and do right". Notice that contextually, "God is not partial", defines "partiality" as "God favoring one who did NOT revere/seek-righteousness". And that is the essence of "predestination" --- that God sovereignly favors a few, whom He elects and then predestines for faith and salvation.

Once again, as has been repeatedly pointed out to you, the clear context of Peter's words in Acts 10 is the revelation of the inclusion of the Gentiles in the scope of God's covenant people, an earth-shattering concept for the Jews. The events of Acts 10 make it clear that God no longer limits the scope of His covenant blessings to the nation of Israel, but also to men of every tribe, tongue and nation.

To use this passage as a means of arguing that God has no partiality in any way towards anyone does not reconcile with the rest of Scripture, since for example He only saves those who have faith in His Son (thus being partial to those who believe in Him).

Acts 10 does not preclude God's sovereignty over the affairs of man. To attempt to make it do so is pure eisegesis and goes well beyond the context of the passage.

Which comes first, "regeneration" or "faith"? If "made-alive" reflects "regeneration" (and how could it not?), then we were made alive in Christ, through faith WHEN we were dead. That's a critical point; part of Eph2:5 is repeated in Eph2:8 --- "WHEN we were dead in our sins, we were made alive by grace through faith." It's critical that faith is not placed after "made alive".

The "made alive", is BY our faith, not before.

Actually it says THROUGH faith, Ben. NOT BY our faith. Grace is the sufficient means. Faith is the instrumental means. Dead men cannot actively participate in their resurrection, Ben. What you are saying is that the dead man exercised faith in order to be made alive. That means he would have to be alive before he came back alive, which is absurd. Lazarus' resurrection was not a cooperative effort on his part. He did not have to rise up in order to come alive...he had to come alive in order to rise up.

As has been repeatedly explained to you, the whole point of this passage is to show that salvation proceeds from God's initiative. Jesus plainly said man cannot even see (let alone enter into) the Kingdom unless he first be born again.

We've debated long and hard on Titus 3:5-6; but Paul said that "regeneration is by the POURED Spirit, Who was poured through Jesus OUR SAVIOR". If we understand that "regeneration-to-us" is by the "poured-on-us-Spirit", and that the Spirit was "poured-through-Jesus-our-Savior", then "Savior" precedes "poured" which precedes "regeneration".

As has been repeatedly explained to you, the words "regeneration" and "renewing" both characterize "washing." Renewal signifies the complete transformation of a person's life that begins when they are regenerated. He saved us through washing (regeneration/renewal), which is an act of the Holy Spirit, who then indwells us at the point of faith.

So many passages wrest the decision of faith and repentance with man (like Rom2:2-8), rather than "with God's predestining sovereign election"...

As has been repeatedly explained to you, God's "predestining sovereign election" is not at odds with man's will and responsibility. Paul also makes very clear in Romans that NONE seek God...that ALL have turned and gone astray. This cannot be simply dismissed as hyperbole, for Paul is clear that he is speaking of all men.."both Jews and Greeks."

Man thinks, acts and decides according to the disposition of his heart, and Scripture is abundantly clear that all men are, in their fallen state, disinclined to God and do not seek Him. He chooses what he wants, and what he wants is whatever promotes self, not God. Apart from the intervention of God, all men would persist in this sin and ultimately perish in unbelief.

"Responsible Grace" relies upon a series of hermeneutical misadventures and mischaracterizations of competing views such as those above. It marginalizes or trivializes passages of Scripture which clearly lay forth God's sovereignty over salvation, and it either selectively applies or altogether ignores distinctions in the types of causality and how they relate to Scripture.

 

[Markea]

Perhaps we should give attention to the whole thing and not just one part.

The clear implication is that those whose God's hand was upon were the ones who humbled themselves.

I agree, although sequence of events is often what these discussions center upon..

And Paul makes it clear that the carnal mind is at enmity with God and does not want to understand Him. Fallen man finds the things of God foolish. Unless the Spirit first operate in a man he will never accept the Truth.

And this is precisely what the GOSPEL OF GOD concerning HIS SON, actually is.. Spirit and truth, and not only that.. His words are life..

Another major center of these discussions tends to be the complete depravity of man in his fallen abilities to articulate his created capacities of logic, reason, and decision.. and yet this happens to be the very core of what the Gospel of God is concerned with.. words.. words which mean things..

The KNOWLEDGE of God's Son concerning His victory over sin, death, and hell.. and that He willingly bore the unpayable debt which none of us could ever have counted, let alone pay.. for us.. simply because He is for us, and not against us.. because He is love, mercy, grace, forgiveness, and truth..

That's His very nature..

AND.. we learn this about the Lord Jesus Christ through words, His words which are the basis of meaning.. and reason, and outcome..

It seems to me that many people feel the need to completely diminish the God given faculties of what things mean.. and our abilities to 'think it thru' so to speak.. and then we see the simplicity of the Gospel of Christ, which addresses the very core issues of who we are, why we're here.. and where we're headed..

That's why we don't preach the gospel in its fundamental aspects to believers.. because it's so simple and pure that there's no need to constantly lay that foundation.. we build upon it, with the infinte wisdom of God in His living and powerful WORD{s}... which are the very center of meaning..

 

[frumanchu]

I agree, although sequence of events is often what these discussions center upon..

In this case, the passage makes it clear that their actions were the result of God's hand being upon them.

And this is precisely what the GOSPEL OF GOD concerning HIS SON, actually is.. Spirit and truth, and not only that.. His words are life..

Another major center of these discussions tends to be the complete depravity of man in his fallen abilities to articulate his created capacities of logic, reason, and decision.. and yet this happens to be the very core of what the Gospel of God is concerned with.. words.. words which mean things..

The KNOWLEDGE of God's Son concerning His victory over sin, death, and hell.. and that He willingly bore the unpayable debt which none of us could ever have counted, let alone pay.. for us.. simply because He is for us, and not against us.. because He is love, mercy, grace, forgiveness, and truth..

That's His very nature..

AND.. we learn this about the Lord Jesus Christ through words, His words which are the basis of meaning.. and reason, and outcome..

It seems to me that many people feel the need to completely diminish the God given faculties of what things mean.. and our abilities to 'think it thru' so to speak.. and then we see the simplicity of the Gospel of Christ, which addresses the very core issues of who we are, why we're here.. and where we're headed..

That's why we don't preach the gospel in its fundamental aspects to believers.. because it's so simple and pure that there's no need to constantly lay that foundation.. we build upon it, with the infinte wisdom of God in His living and powerful WORD{s}... which are the very center of meaning..

The problem is that you reduce Christianity to a sort of gnosticism whereby if somebody can just figure it out then they'll be saved. Salvation involves more than just receiving factual knowledge about the person and work of Christ and then acknowledging its truth. It involves a change in perceived value.

Many a learned man with tremendous abilities of reason and logic have heard the words of Christ and rejected them as foolishness. I think in your zeal to uphold the volitional and rational abilities of man you have neglected the effects of sin upon the will of man.

 

[Markea]

In this case, the passage makes it clear that their actions were the result of God's hand being upon them.

Really.. so the humility of these men would have no consequences before the Lord..?

How about a blatant rejection of God's precepts.. would the Lord's hand still be upon their actions if that we're the case.. ?

The problem is that you reduce Christianity to a sort of gnosticism whereby if somebody can just figure it out then they'll be saved.

So - you're basically saying that the gospel is too complicated for a person to understand. People can not grasp the fundamental message of love, grace, and forgiveness for their sins..?

If that's the case, then why don't people preach the very fundamentals of the gospel to those who receive its message.. ? ..ie.. we don't need to explain salvation to a saved person, that they need to have their sins forgiven.. that God's Son died for their sins according to the scriptures..

Do you know what I mean..?

The reason is because the gospel itself is pure and simple.. ie, the wisdom from above is pure, peaceful, full of mercy and good fruits.. and it's easily entreated.. ie, it's easily digested (or taken in)..

Salvation involves more than just receiving factual knowledge about the person and work of Christ and then acknowledging its truth. It involves a change in perceived value.

Yes, absolutely.. but we're not talking about salvation at this point.. we're talking about comprehending the simple message of grace and truth..

Many a learned man with tremendous abilities of reason and logic have heard the words of Christ and rejected them as foolishness.

And isn't that the crux of the matter.. They reject them as foolishness.. it's not that it's a foolish message.. the person who receives it comprehended it in that way.. they're actually believing (reasoning) a lie in place of the truth, and even the belief of that lie involves rational thinking..

I think in your zeal to uphold the volitional and rational abilities of man you have neglected the effects of sin upon the will of man.

Obviously this is a key point.. we're talkin about the depravity of a creature who is fashioned in the very image of God.. who has God given faculties of reason, basis, perception.. of reception and rejection.. etc..

 

[Markea]

Not to mention that the words of God are Spirit and they are Life.. ie, they're God breathed.. it's the same idea of God initially breathing into Adam the breath of life.. to make Him a living soul..

 

[nobdysfool]

Not to mention that the words of God are Spirit and they are Life.. ie, they're God breathed.. it's the same idea of God initially breathing into Adam the breath of life.. to make Him a living soul..

If that applied as you are obviously trying to apply it, then the preaching of the gospel would meet with 100% acceptance and success, for who can stand against the Word of God? If God breathes life into you, you will not fail to become alive. Did God have to breathe into Adam more than once? Did Adam resist being given life? Did that lump of clay formed from the dust of the ground, present any resistence to being given life? I think the answer is obvious.

Yes, the word of God is Spirit and Life. no doubt. but, it's not the hearing of the words, it is the quickening of those words in a heart which has been made alive by God to receive those words. That is what you're missing. As Fru pointed out to Ben Johnson, regeneration is monergistic, i.e. totally God's work. The faith with which man believes is his own, which is brought to life by the hearing of the Word with the newly quickened heart. God initiates salvation, via monergistic regeneration, and from that point on, man willingly believes, receives, and is made a child of God. That is a Truth that BJ doesn't want to accept, and which many others do not even understand.

 

[heymikey80]

If men have no choice in redemption, on what are they judged?

Are you saying Satan has a choice? Don't tell me this is irrelevant, either. Satan's a created being. Satan is judged -- isn't he? "If Satan has no choice in redemption, on what is he judged?"

Same answer to yours as to this one. They're judged because they're evil.

Why rebuke those who CANNOT change?

To set righteousness apart from sinfulness. We all deserve to know the reasons for our condemnation.

And what's this about "rebuke"? The point is to put an end to sin.

Right --- and was born of God WHEN he first believed. Look at John1:12 --- "believing/receiving Jesus gives men the right to become children of God".

Lookin' for that "when" word in there .... It looks like "who" to me.

"those who believed in his name, he gave them the right to become children of God, who were born of God"

John's sounding like a hoot owl it's so clear.

Conversely, Heb12:7-9 says "if we resist His discipline, then we are illegitimate and not sons".

By that logic we're all dead. You can go home now. If you're right, you're sunk, too. You've resisted.

If "regeneration is by the poured Spirit", and if "the Spirit is poured through OUR Savior Jesus", then "our Savior", denotes "belief".

Did faith come through our Savior Jesus or through ourselves? Which is it, Ben? You're begging your assumption. That's why you're reaching a conclusion about faith from a verse that doesn't even talk about faith.

Yes, Mike, everyone is redeemed. It must be that way, else infants and mentally handicapped people are doomed.

I've a God who's bigger than the world's corruption. But He ne'er said He had redeemed everyone.

Suppose everyone is redeemed, until the moment they DISBELIEVE. Thus, they reject the redemption that they had. Make sense?

No. The call is to believe, not to avoid disbelief. "Just suspend your incredulity for a bit, and God will save you." Find that verse.

Only "disbelief" is condemned; see 1Jn5:10.

Verse. Looking for "don't disbelieve; but don't worry about believing."

The word "propitiation", means "appeasement" --- "satisfying the penalty of sin". Per 1Jn2:2, not only believers are propitated, but also the entire world.

The word "propitiation" is used for one who propitiates. And that's "who turns aside wrath". That's tellingly obvious in 1 Jn 2:2. The entire world is propitiated because it's not utterly destroyed. But to say nothing in the world is going to be burned up, laid bare, and re-created -- that's folly. God's made no such claim. Wrath remains. Christ's propitiation is not comprehensive. It is given to the world -- that is, to creation. And it is given especially to us.

Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. Ep 5:6

On account of these the wrath of God is coming. Col 3:6

Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, "Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord." Rom 12:19

Exactly. And if "redemption precedes faith", then adoption does NOT follow faith, faith follows sovereign adoption. Make sense?

No, no it doesn't. For how can someone be adopted into the Spirit's family who hasn't even been born? And if adoption is a declarative act, it's not even made any sense why the declaration shouldn't follow from our relying on God.

And you haven't really carried why adoption wouldn't precede faith -- though I agree with you, I disagree it's in this verse. The verse makes adoption appear to precede, but it does not actually say such. It says those who believe have received the right to be God's children. It does not say the right follows on faith. It says one is distributed to the same extent as the other.

Which same questions? "Saving-faith" is either causal, or consequential. In 2Tim3:16, it's consequential to learning from Scripture, and causal to salvation.

No, Scripture is unable to bring all people to wisdom to salvation (aside: Timothy wasn't saved at this point? How sad.) It's a necessity to understand your situation, and Scripture makes people wise to their salvation. Without the Spirit Scripture's not causal. As can be noted by the quantity of people reading the Bible who are not saved.

No they haven't; you, for instance, have not. You are a "saved believer".

Nope. I have refused God's discipline in the past, and I shall likely do so in the future. By your logic I'm a dead man. And so are you.

If God ordains means AND ends, so that salvation is entirely HIM (faith being but the consequence of His sovereign choice), then the Final Judgment is a "pageant", a "kangaroo court". And Paul says (Rom2:6-8) "we will be judged for what we do"

I'm sure plenty of people will disagree with you on that Day.

As for Rom 2:6-8, Paul's already answered that assertion. "For by works of the law no one will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin." Rom 3:20

No view of the Last Day -- not even yours -- can escape this rhetoric of yours, by the way. You view makes the Last Day a "pageant", a "kangaroo court". There is no appeal. There is nothing you can do to escape judgment. You've lost all your choice on the Last Day.

The facts are inexorable. The view you're espousing contradicts what Scripture says actually happens.

Salvation is active, Mike (Matt7:24-27, responsibility), not passive (sovereignly predestined).

Salvation is Spiritually passive (sovereignly predestined) and humanly active (the Spirit works through us).

Which part of that is not "pure divine fiat"? Which part is not "ordained by God" --- if He ordains the ends AND the means, then all is HIS choice, it has nothing to do with "just".

Ah. That view denies God knew and intended what He was creating. Of course it has everything to do with "just". God ordains ends and means. The way things work in this Creation, God has ordained! Sorry you feel that's unjust. That's Scripture for you. Unjust as you see it, isn't thereby unjust.

He can, and does; that's why man is responsible. Redemption is universal, AND man can choose to reject it.

A lie. God is the source of your life in Christ Jesus, whom God made our wisdom and our righteousness and sanctification and redemption. 1 Cor 1:30

Where in Scripture does "God ordain the means"? I read of many admonishmenst TO persevere in faith, TO be diligent in Christ. What need is there of "diligence", if God "ordains the means and the end"? If the end is already ordained, then it's HIM who is diligent FOR (and in) us. Does that make sense?

You haven't looked. You've simply said, "Oh, I see the one, therefore it can't be the other." Excluded middle.

In 2Cor13:5, it's not "to see if it was true"; it's "to see if we are still IN Christ".

You haven't looked at what you just said. Even it's "to see if its true" -- which is identical to "Examine yourselves, to see whether you are in the faith."

And there's no "still in Christ" there. That's an injection into this verse.

Each of those verses you quoted convey personal action. Philip says "WORK out your salvation with fear and trembling". Rom8 says "We are under obligation, not to walk after the flesh --- if you DO you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the flesh, you will LIVE."

And vaulting to individual initiative, you miss the God Who made it so.

Because if they're passive in their sinful condemnation, then God is unjust. It was their choice...
I see two possibilities here:

1. Being "on the Potter's wheel", conveys belief; as NASV translates, "vessels for both honor and common, on His wheel, will be used as He wills"; the wrath-fitted-destruction vessels aren't on His wheel.

Now Pharaoh is a believer, eh?

It doesn't answer the question Paul's answering -- "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?" so it's not a possible answer.

2. All vessels are on His wheel; some He shapes for salvation, the other He willfully forms to be sinful and condemned.

Do you hold to the second?

You only see two possibilities in this passage?

Mike, I perceive an "angry tone" in your post; please accept my apology for making you angry; it was never my intention, and I ask your forgiveness.

Let's do a thought experiment. For the next dozen postings I'll post something against your position -- it'll be a blatant lie, so obvious you've mentioned it yourself in times past as not telling the truth. I'll insinuate that you really believe it even though you've said you don't. I'll be informed and aware of the fact. Yet I'll continue to persist in lying.

Is there a way to apologize for that? Why would I apologize for an emotion I'm generating -- quite obviously -- without seeking to correct it?

The quotes I'm pulling back I've cited before. They are nearly 400 years old and have been there, quoted and cited, for you to read.

Moreover, the Synod earnestly warns the false accusers themselves to consider how heavy a judgment of God awaits those who give false testimony against so many churches and their confessions, trouble the consciences of the weak, and seek to prejudice the minds of many against the fellowship of true believers.
​

 

[Markea]

If that applied as you are obviously trying to apply it, then the preaching of the gospel would meet with 100% acceptance and success, for who can stand against the Word of God? If God breathes life into you, you will not fail to become alive. Did God have to breathe into Adam more than once? Did Adam resist being given life? Did that lump of clay formed from the dust of the ground, present any resistence to being given life? I think the answer is obvious.

Again, there's no doubt that God births His Spirit into those that trust in Him for the forgiveness of their sins.. I'm not talking about salvation.. I'm talking about the basic concept of comprehending what the gospel is concerned with.. God's Son.. His love for the world.. that He gave Him for the sin of the world.. that there is forgiveness of sins through His shed blood..

The Lord Jesus Christ is that true light which lighteth every man that comes into the world.. although that doesn't mean that He saves every person that comes into the world.. it means that His light enlightens them..
and we know that this is the case because some reject that light because their deeds are evil.. it could not have been rejected if they were not subjected to it..

Yes, the word of God is Spirit and Life. no doubt. but, it's not the hearing of the words, it is the quickening of those words in a heart which has been made alive by God to receive those words.

Obviously another fine line here.. of course it's the word of God which produces that increase.. although it also has to do with the reception of that word into the heart where it is embraced as truth.. which has its work of producing faith and trust in the one who has made these exceeding great and precious promises..

That's effectively what faith is.. embracing the promises of God.

That is what you're missing. As Fru pointed out to Ben Johnson, regeneration is monergistic, i.e. totally God's work. The faith with which man believes is his own, which is brought to life by the hearing of the Word with the newly quickened heart. God initiates salvation, via monergistic regeneration, and from that point on, man willingly believes, receives, and is made a child of God. That is a Truth that BJ doesn't want to accept, and which many others do not even understand.

How do you know that your understanding is perfect.. did God allow you to believe that, or is there a slim possibility that you could be mis-understanding some aspects of the entire process..

Because if you're correct, we're simply robots without any capacity to reason and decide.. and imo there's absolutely nothing sovereign about that.. it's trivial actually.. the real amazing grace is in the fruit of Christ's work of winning the hearts and minds of those who will recieve Him as He is in truth, the son of the living God.

 

[frumanchu]

Really.. so the humility of these men would have no consequences before the Lord..?

How about a blatant rejection of God's precepts.. would the Lord's hand still be upon their actions if that we're the case.. ?

Let me post this again so I can clarify:

"However, some men of Asher, of Manasseh, and of Zebulun humbled themselves and came to Jerusalem. The hand of God was also on Judah to give them one heart to do what the king and the princes commanded by the word of the LORD." - 2 Chron 30:11-12
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Was the hand of God on Judah because they heeded the word of the LORD, or so that they would heed the word of the LORD? It says His hand was upon them TO give them one heart to do so.

Not only that, but it says His hand was ALSO upon Judah. So who else was His hand upon? Obviously, the men of Asher, Manasseh and Zebulun. Taken in total, it clearly shows God's sovereign action in bringing about the obedience these people.

So - you're basically saying that the gospel is too complicated for a person to understand. People can not grasp the fundamental message of love, grace, and forgiveness for their sins..?

No, not at all. I believe the Gospel is both simple and complex. As one of my favorite songs puts it, "the Truth is a river where the strong can swim in deep and the weak and the broken can walk across so easily."

The issue is not with volitional capacity, but rather with value judgement. There's an easily demonstrable principle at work that applies not only to the Gospel but to many aspects of our world, and that is that a man can hear something that is true and even accept the fact that it is true, but still be unwilling to put their trust in it because of the implications it carries for the things which are important to them.

Consider the following example:

During the late 19th century a French tightrope walker made quite a stir by repeatedly crossing over Niagara Falls on rope stretched between the two banks of the river. Reportedly, he once singled out a member of the audience before one of these "trips" and asked him several questions along the following lines:


"Sir", he asked, " do you believe I can walk over the falls on this little rope?"
"Sure", answered the man, "I've seen you do it before."
"And do you also believe that I could push this wheelbarrow across?"
"Yes, I do."
"And do you also believe that I could do it with a man sitting in the wheelbarrow?"
"Yeah, I'm positive you could."
"Then, kind sir, would you mind assisting me by getting into the wheelbarrow?"
"Not on your life!", answered the man.


This man knew he had walked across the tightrope before and believed he could do it again with the wheelbarrow, but stopped short of putting his trust in that theoretical assent.

If that's the case, then why don't people preach the very fundamentals of the gospel to those who receive its message.. ? ..ie.. we don't need to explain salvation to a saved person, that they need to have their sins forgiven.. that God's Son died for their sins according to the scriptures..

Do you know what I mean..?

The reason is because the gospel itself is pure and simple.. ie, the wisdom from above is pure, peaceful, full of mercy and good fruits.. and it's easily entreated.. ie, it's easily digested (or taken in)..

Yes and no. The Pauline epistles in particular are full of difficult sayings and teachings which are likened to "meat" (as compared to "milk").

Yes, absolutely.. but we're not talking about salvation at this point.. we're talking about comprehending the simple message of grace and truth..

I may be misunderstaning your point here, but to what end if we're not talking about salvation? The ability of the unsaved to comprehend the fundamentals of Gospel at an intellectual level means little unless we put it in the context of salvation. The question is whether or not that intellectual comprehension is itself sufficient to save a person, or if something more is required. I believe Scripture indicates that something more is required.

And isn't that the crux of the matter.. They reject them as foolishness.. it's not that it's a foolish message.. the person who receives it comprehended it in that way.. they're actually believing (reasoning) a lie in place of the truth, and even the belief of that lie involves rational thinking..

Precisely, and the reason for that is not an intellectual issue but rather a moral issue. It's not a problem with their capacity for rational thought in and of itself, but rather a problem with their desire affecting their decision making.

Obviously this is a key point.. we're talkin about the depravity of a creature who is fashioned in the very image of God.. who has God given faculties of reason, basis, perception.. of reception and rejection.. etc..

Yes, but we cannot ignore the Fall and its significant impact upon man.

 

[Ben johnson]

Are you saying satan has a choice? Don't tell me this is irrelevant, either. Satan's a created being. Satan is judged -- isn't he? "If Satan has no choice in redemption, on what is he judged?"

Angels have a different position than we do; they are not "alive", as we are, so they cannot die. Redemption is provided to those who are alive; once we die then we no longer can be "saved". Combine Heb9:27 ("It is appointed once for men to die, and after this comes judgment"), with Rom2:6-8, and it's clear that death precedes judgment, which precedes eternity with God or eternity apart from Him.

satan very much DID have a choice, when he chose to rebel and become prideful.

Same answer to yours as to this one. They're judged because they're evil.

If men cannot avoid being evil, then the judgment is not just. That's an "absolute".

To set righteousness apart from sinfulness. We all deserve to know the reasons for our condemnation.

I'm sorry, it doesn't read like "this is why you're gonna die". It reads like what Jesus said in Mark1:15, "The kingdom of God is at hand, repent and believe the Gospel."

And what Ezekiel wrote, 18:24, "God takes no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies; so repent and live."

And what's this about "rebuke"? The point is to put an end to sin.

Which they cannot DO, right? That's why it makes no sense. Nor does it in any of the other "rebuking passages".

The best "rebuke passage" for our discussion is probably Matt23:13; your position asserts that "Jesus is berating them, but Jesus knows they CANNOT repent, He's only informing them of the reasons for their condemnation --- which wasn't really their FAULT because there was no way in the Universe they could have AVOIDED it but Jesus tells them ANYWAY the substance of their condemnation (which really, even if by His choice NOT to interfere, was God's predestination for them.)"

So in Matt23:13 when Jesus blasts the Scribes and Pharisees for REFUSING Heaven, and then for turning away those who ARE entering --- it just doesn't fit to perceive "oh He's just informing them of the nature of their CRIME". Focus on those who the Pharisees deceived; Jesus says "they ARE entering" --- per RT, that must mean "SOVEREIGN ELECT". No way to deny that. But they get deceived to NOT entering --- the Pharisees shut off Heaven from men. Who did? Pharisees, or God?

It also does not "work" to say, "Well, Jesus doesn't say they're shut off forever, if they're really God's elect they'll enter at a time when He has CHOSEN". Look at verse 15 --- "You make him twice as much a child of Hell as YOU are." Does that really reflect some who could be "sovereign-elect" and will enter in the future?

1. Those who ARE entering Heaven, are entering. Clear.
2. Scribes/Pharisees stop them, shut off Heaven (can only mean "deceive them away from belief")
3. When S/P makes a man a proselyte (to their deception), he's twice a child of Hell as them!

How in the world can that ever fit the idea of "sovereign predestined election"?