Romans2 (and predestination)

[Markea]

And what do you base this on? Yes, all things work together for good to them that love God. What does "work together for good " mean?

Well, that's basically the point.. they love God.. because they trust in His sacrifice for their sins and believe the truth of the gospel.

Actually, he's not doing anything of the kind. His point was clear, that God's Hand was not only on Judah, but also on the specific men mentioned. That little word "also" ties them together.

God is always working within those that love Him.. their life is actually justified by their faith toward Him..

As for the "robot" jibe, that is ludicrous. It comes from not really listening to and considering what we Calvinists say, especially when we explain at great length what we mean. You may be comfoprtable with fluid, ever-changing definitions, but we are not. We define things in a definite, consistent manner, and if you want to understand what we are saying, then you must understand the underlying definitions of terms, and stop filtering our words through the fluid and ever-changing definitions that non-Calvinists like to employ to resolve the inconsistencies in their beliefs.

It's not complicated what calvinists actually do say.. it all comes down to the claim that unless God allows me to believe Him, then I can't.. and I agree.. that's ludicrous because it reduces the very creation of God to simple robots which are either turned on and allowed to function, or not..

It is dangerous to equate intellectual understanding with faith as you're doing here. Much of the Gospel is counter-intuitive to the natural man (the unregenerate, "unsaved"), and that is the basis for the natural man seeing the things of God as foolishness. Yes, man can reason, think, and search things out, no one denies that. However, such a quest for knowledge and understanding does not in and of itself guarantee knowledge of the Lord, because knowledge of the Lord is spiritual, not intellectual. Churches are filled with people who "know about" the Lord, and give intellectual assent to the historicity, and validity of Jesus Christ, the Crucifixion, His Resurrection, and the necessity of living life to honor and obey Him, but they are not truly Christians. Simply mumbling a few words at the altar, saying the "sinner's prayer" does not make one a Christian. To believe that "saying the words" confers salvation is akin to a belief in magic and incantations. Far too many pulpits teach such nonsense.

His gospel is Spirit and life.. because His words are Spirit and life.. and that's what the Spirit does.. it convinces of sin, righteousness, and judgment.. the gospel actually is the power of God unto salvation.. so it doesn't simply depend on the intellectual aspect of man.. we're dealing with a gospel which is powerful in its ability to cut to the dividing asunder of the soul and spirit.. ie, it gets right to the heart of the matter.

And therefore you totally missed the point.

Your point was simple and obvious.. I only pointed out how it falls completely short of reality with respect to what men are actually placing their trust in.. ie, the Lord Jesus Christ.. God manifest in the flesh.

Yes, those of us who are saved, who are truly born of him, know that, and we take great comfort in that. However, the unregenerate, unsaved, natural men do not know that, they do not accept that, and it means nothing to them. Why? Because their minds and hearts have not been renewed by the Spirit of God, and therfore cannot either truly grasp, or even understand correctly what Jesus as our "exceeding and great reward" actually means. To ignore that, or to downplay that, is a form of denial of the true depths of sin and its effect on men. Most non-Calvinists would rather see men as "spiritually sick" than really accept that sin effects every aspect of man's life, and renders him spiritually dead, not just "sick".

And again.. that's what the word of God is capable of doing because it is Spirit and life.. it's effectual in producing an hundredfold increase.. as that's where faith comes from... the incorruptible word of God.

You can disagree 'til the cows come home, but your disagreement doesn't make it so.

Same thing to you..

What is the difference between the Christian and the non-Christian? The Christian has a changed heart. He didn't change it himself, it was changed for him by God. Man can change his mind, but only God can change his heart. And without the changed heart, man can give intellectual assent to, and believe on an intellectual level, any and all of the Gospel that he wants, but that knowledge won't save him. As for the deeper things of God, they are only revealed by the Spirit, and will therefore never be available to, or understood, by the carnal mind.

No kidding.. who has said otherwise.. I think it's you folks who often mis-understand what is being said on the other side of the coin.. No person is denying that God changes the heart.. as He alone knows the heart, and He alone purifies the heart by faith.. when people place their faith and trust in Him after hearing the gospel which is the power of God unto salvation..

Total Depravity has nothing to do with man's reasoning abilities. Depravity is a condition of the heart, not the head.

Let me say it again.. the gospel is the power of God unto salvation to those that receive Him and believe it.. if it's the power of God unto salvation, then it's obviously working in those that are not saved, to produce that result.

He is the true light that lights every man that comes into the world.. but some love darkness and will not come to Him..

What moral dynamics are you speaking of? Man's natural condition is one of moral bankruptcy. That is the effect of sin on the heart of man, it renders him morally bankrupt. Total Depravity speaks of the moral depravity of mankind as a whole, and individuals in specific. Morality is not defined by man, it is defined by God.

So the gospel cannot reach His creatures unless He allows it to..?

 

[Rick Otto]

nothing exists.

 

[Ben johnson]

Ben has been refuted on these comments but continues regardless ...

The "refutations" have been overturned, Cygnus --- one by one...

.... had they entered salvation or were they entering , we had a couple of weeks over that one

Jesus said, "are entering". Can that be made into "not really entering"? No.

adulterating God's word ..... adding to it to uphold certain unfounded assumptions.

I notice where you are going wrong .

You are reading the text , then ignoring the middle bit , and inserting your own word , then you read it as though it is a faithful rendering ..... it is not ......

also you are confusing things that differ ....... you are saying 'chosen by Grace through faith ....... lumping two distinct ideas together out of context .......

In 2Thess2:13, we were "chosen from the beginning, through sanctification by the Spirit, AND faith in the truth". It's a simple conjunction, Cygnus --- "kai-and".

It absolutely and undeniably says "chosen from the beginning through faith".

1. We are saved by faith (but you really do not accept that) How can you even use the phrase 'saving faith' ?

What you will not consider is the possibility that "faith can become faithlessness". Paul speaks of this in 2Tim2:11-13; "if we died with Him then we shall live with Him. If we endure, we shall also reign with Him; (but) if we deny Him then He will deny us; if we are faithless, yet He remains faithful..." Here is contrasted "died/deny", and "reign/faithless". Unless you perceive that a "faithless God-denying-man" can reign with Christ, then you'll hafta consider that WE can be faithless and unsaved.

This is precisely the warning (and it's way beyond denial) of Heb3:8-14. WE are warned not to "harden our hearts", not to "be deceived by sin to hard unbelieving hearts that fall away from the living God". He qualifies, "we are partners in Christ IF we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end." He speaks of how the Israelites did not enter His rest because of unbelief. The context continues into chapter 4, with further warning: "Therefore let us be diligent TO enter His rest, lest anyone FALL by imitating their disobedience (and unbelief).

This is the clear position in Scripture, which you are calling "adulterated".

You don't believe faith is enough to save anyone ..... you believe that there are many who had saving faith who are now and forevermore in Hell !

True faith, can become faithlessness; that is the word-for-word warning we just reviewed in Heb3:8-14, and 4:11. There are plenty of other passages that say the same. Look at Colossians 2:6-8; we are to "walk in Christ as we have received Him". The alternative, is in the next verse: "See that no one takes you captive through empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ." Here once again is the idea of "deceived away from Christ".

We could go on, and on; we could quote 1Jn2:26-28. We could cite warning after warning for us to "abide in Christ and His teachings --- as you DO you will save yourselves", in 1Tim5:16; in 2Jn1:7-9. Look at how Peter presents a man who once WAS purified, but now LACKS the godly/moral/loving qualities that MUST accompany salvation; Peter says "Therefore be all the more diligent to make sure of your calling and election; as long as thewe qualities are yours, you are useful ... and the gates of Heaven will BE provided to you."

Do you still think my position is "adulteration of Scripture"? How?

2. We are Chosen from the beginning for salvation.

you are ripping and splicing these two concepts together in a most underhanded way .... to uphold human free-will even though man is a slave of sin.

'Fraid not, my friend; I ripped nothing, I only quoted 2Thess2:13. "Chosen from the beginning through ...faith in the truth." There is no way to change what Paul said...

So --- when Jesus said "those who are entering, you stop --- you shut off the kingdom of Heaven from men" --- it cannot mean "weren't REALLY entering". It cannot mean "weren't REALLY stopped/shut-off".

If we try to make it mean, "Jesus didn't say 'shut off FOREVER', if they were truly elect, then though shut off for now they will enter in at a time God decides." --- if we try to make it say that, then we're faced with verse 15: "...you make him (whom you've proselytized against faith) twice the child of Hell than you are."

Twice the child of Hell? Does this really sound like someone who is "sovereign-elect-will-enter-in-LATER"? No, it doesn't.

I respectufully submit that virtually all of "Reformed Theology" exists by imposing "not really" on Scripture. "Not really entering", or "not really stopped/shut off".

This thread is based on Rom2; it is a rebuke saying "God's kindness is MEANT to lead you to repentance --- but your stubborn unrepentant heart is storing up wrath for the day of Judgment". This is taken to mean, "You can't REALLY repent, I'm only saying this to document the SUBSTANCE of your condemnation".

Did you see the "not really" in there? It's really an admonishment for them TO repent, Cygnus.

Please tell me how all I've said tonight, is "uncredible" and "adulterating Scripture"; I don't see it.

How 'bout the others here???

 

[Ben johnson]

Good grief, BEN!!!!

Again, you are 100% wrong!!!!

Those that received him (lambano): 2nd Aorist, Active, Indicative (Most definitely NOT present).

Correct; hence the translation, "received". By past, it precedes "become children of God".

And, those that are born (gennao) of God: Aorist, Passive, Indicative.

Now, granted, those that believe are viewed in the present tense, but given the fact that everything else is Aorist simply renders your assertions 100% false about this passage.

1Jn5:1 simply makes a statment about the present; it does not say "they need to be born of God so that they CAN believe". It simply says, whoever believes, is born of God". The argument is resolved when we read John1:12 --- "born of God", equates to "become His children" (further established by verse 13). And John places "received Christ" (clearly denoting belief), before "become children of God".

Do you accept the argument is resolved? Why not?

BTW, since you have abandoned your attempts to assert that Romans 9:22 is a middle voice, can I assume that you now concede that you are wrong?

Abandoned nothing, Woody. If it is "passive", then God created people FOR eternal destruction in Hell.

Do you believe that?

 

[nobdysfool]

Originally Posted by Cygnus
Ben has been refuted on these comments but continues regardless ...

The "refutations" have been overturned, Cygnus --- one by one..

It appears you are the only one who thinks so....The fact remains, you have been refuted, repeatedly, and your refusal to accept it does not change the fact one whit.

What makes you think that we will accept your declaration of refutation, when you refuse to even truly listen to anything we say? You run all over, hither and yon, rather than discuss one passage, and stick with it. You claim it's because all this and that tie together, but what it really is, is you running from scripture to scripture to avoid being pinned down. That's not debate, that's just a refusal to admit that you can't dig deep, because yor theology would be exposed for the inconsistencies, errors, and faulty logic you employ.

I don't expect you to truly understand what I just said, you never have in the past, but within the last paragraph is the exact reason why I will no longer tolerate or engage in discussion with you.

You're wrong, you've been proven wrong, and your denial does not change or set aside that clear fact.

 

[nobdysfool]

Well, that's basically the point.. they love God.. because they trust in His sacrifice for their sins and believe the truth of the gospel.

But can it be said that all things work together for good to them that DON'T love God, who are not called according to His Purpose? No, it can't.

God is always working within those that love Him.. their life is actually justified by their faith toward Him..

Yes God works in the lives of His own, but they are justified by Christ's work, not their own faith.

It's not complicated what calvinists actually do say.. it all comes down to the claim that unless God allows me to believe Him, then I can't.. and I agree.. that's ludicrous because it reduces the very creation of God to simple robots which are either turned on and allowed to function, or not..

Which is proof positive that you really do not understand or have a working knowledge of Calvinism, or you wouldn't make such a ridiculous statement.

His gospel is Spirit and life.. because His words are Spirit and life.. and that's what the Spirit does.. it convinces of sin, righteousness, and judgment.. the gospel actually is the power of God unto salvation.. so it doesn't simply depend on the intellectual aspect of man.. we're dealing with a gospel which is powerful in its ability to cut to the dividing asunder of the soul and spirit.. ie, it gets right to the heart of the matter.

Unless the spirit of God quickens the Word to the heart of man, it won't get any farther than his intellect if it gets that far. I am concerned that you hold to the idea that "saying the words" is enough to confer salvation. As I said before, such a view is akin to belief in magic spells and incantations.

The view you are presenting here is proven wrong by that very same Word. if the Word of God worked the way you are trying to say, then the preaching of the gospel would be 100% effective and successful, resulting in 100% conversion every time it is preached, Jesus would not have spoken about people not hearing and believing ,even though they heard the words.

Jesus was the One who said His words were Spirit and Life. His Word brought the world into existence. If you say that if man doesn't believe, then the Word can't work then you've set up something (man's will) that is at least as powerful as God Himself, if not more powerful.

No, the Spirit of God quickens the Word to those whom He chooses (the wind bloweth where it listeth, and you know not from whence it came, or where it goes. So is it with every one who is born of the Spirit). Man does not have the native ability to quicken himself, or believe savingly before he is quickened by the Spirit of God.

Your point was simple and obvious.. I only pointed out how it falls completely short of reality with respect to what men are actually placing their trust in.. ie, the Lord Jesus Christ.. God manifest in the flesh.

Well, it wasn't actually my point, it was Frumanchu's. However, the principle that it taught was that true faith acts, and it's actions are in one accord with what it believes, What is often called "faith" is really only mental assent, because there is no desire or impetus to act in accordance with the belief. True faith is not a spectator sport.

And again.. that's what the word of God is capable of doing because it is Spirit and life.. it's effectual in producing an hundredfold increase.. as that's where faith comes from... the incorruptible word of God.

Well, you got that one part right. Most who believe as you deny that fact.

Same thing to you..

"I know you are, but what am I?" Same thing.

No kidding.. who has said otherwise.. I think it's you folks who often mis-understand what is being said on the other side of the coin.. No person is denying that God changes the heart.. as He alone knows the heart, and He alone purifies the heart by faith.. when people place their faith and trust in Him after hearing the gospel which is the power of God unto salvation..

"Us folks" hear you folks just fine, it is you folks who don't want to face the inconsistencies, and examine your beliefs too closely, for fear you may find out you didn't understand it right. We're ttrying to help, and what we get in return is anger, name-calling, hostility, and a refusal to listen. So far, you haven't really gone that far, but it's also obvious to me that you aren't really understanding what I'm saying, because it challenges what you believe to be true.

Let me say it again.. the gospel is the power of God unto salvation to those that receive Him and believe it.. if it's the power of God unto salvation, then it's obviously working in those that are not saved, to produce that result.

Is it working in all of the unsaved, without exception? You're left with two choices: Either man can stop it by refusing to believe, or, what makes the Gospel the power of God unto salvation is the quickening of that Word to the hearts of those being saved by the Spirit of God, and not by the choice of man. Therefore, God chooses whom He will save, and man does not make that choice unaided and without prior action by God specifically to his heart. .

He is the true light that lights every man that comes into the world.. but some love darkness and will not come to Him..

All men are born lovers of darkness. Those who come to Him have been drawn by Him. It is God who saves man, not man who saves himself by the use of a "provision" of God.

So the gospel cannot reach His creatures unless He allows it to..?

Has the Gospel been heard by every man without exception? If not, can they be saved? And if so, by what means? Millions of people lived before Christ, and the vast majority of them went to their graves, as sinners deserving of the Wrath of God. God forbade Paul to go to Asia, and sent him to Europe instead. Those in Asia who did not get to hear the Gospel died in their sins, and God made it so by not allowing Paul to go to Asia. History might have been a lot different if the Turks hadn't become Muslims, because the Gospel was withheld from them. Your theology can't account for such a state of affairs, Calvinism has no problem with God doing as He pleases.

 

[Markea]

But can it be said that all things work together for good to them that DON'T love God, who are not called according to His Purpose? No, it can't.

Again, that's the point.. although God seeks and saves the lost every day.. His goodness is what leads to repentance and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.

Yes God works in the lives of His own, but they are justified by Christ's work, not their own faith.

Actually, they are justified by faith.. because that faith is centered upon the Lord Jesus Christ.. (maybe the same thing that you're saying here) and so when they trust in Christ's perfect work of redemption, then they're justified in God's sight.

Which is proof positive that you really do not understand or have a working knowledge of Calvinism, or you wouldn't make such a ridiculous statement.

Perhaps you're simply not willing to admit that calvinism is reduced to such a ludicrous thing as this.. that unless God allows a person to believe, then they can't.. it's that simple really.. nothing complicated about it..

Feel free to correct that if you would.. you claim that it's ridiculous, so by all means.. tell me that it isn't true.

Unless the spirit of God quickens the Word to the heart of man, it won't get any farther than his intellect if it gets that far. I am concerned that you hold to the idea that "saying the words" is enough to confer salvation. As I said before, such a view is akin to belief in magic spells and incantations.

His words ARE Spirit and life.. that's what the gospel is.. words concerning the Lord Jesus Christ.. God's beloved Son, how that all of the Law and the Prophets point to Him.. and that all things are fulfilled in Him.. etc etc..and the Spirit of God IS in the world, convicting men of sin, of righteousness, and of judgment.. do you deny that..?

And let me say it again so that you're clear.. GOD SEALS every member of His body with HIS SPIRIT.. it's the miraculous work of God.. it's not the work of men.. God simply does this work in those that receive His Son.. ie, as many as received HIM, to them gave HE power to become the sons of God.. to those that believe on His name..

The view you are presenting here is proven wrong by that very same Word. if the Word of God worked the way you are trying to say, then the preaching of the gospel would be 100% effective and successful, resulting in 100% conversion every time it is preached, Jesus would not have spoken about people not hearing and believing ,even though they heard the words.

I think that the parable of the Sower explains quite a bit concerning the interaction between the good incorruptible seed of the word of God and the reasons for why it does not produce results.. the Lord also says that if they would believe with their heart, that HE would heal them..

Jesus was the One who said His words were Spirit and Life. His Word brought the world into existence. If you say that if man doesn't believe, then the Word can't work then you've set up something (man's will) that is at least as powerful as God Himself, if not more powerful.

He came unto His own, and His own RECEIVED HIM NOT..

Let's look at one example of this.. the Pharisees.. couldn't see the truth standing right in front of them.. why..? The Lord tells us why.. because they claimed that they could see.. even though they were blind.. the problem was not with God.. He was right there.. the problem was with those who claimed to know the truth and yet couldn't recognize the truth standing right in front of them..

No, the Spirit of God quickens the Word to those whom He chooses (the wind bloweth where it listeth, and you know not from whence it came, or where it goes. So is it with every one who is born of the Spirit). Man does not have the native ability to quicken himself, or believe savingly before he is quickened by the Spirit of God.

And here's the crux of the matter.. why does He choose.. ? Is it for some reason known only to God, or is it because they heard the word of truth, the gospel of their salvation, and then trusted in God's Son for the forgiveness of their sins..?

The first scenario reduces us to robots.. the second scenario is based upon the truth received being a reason why God would choose to seal a person with the Holy Spirit of promise.

Well, it wasn't actually my point, it was Frumanchu's. However, the principle that it taught was that true faith acts, and it's actions are in one accord with what it believes, What is often called "faith" is really only mental assent, because there is no desire or impetus to act in accordance with the belief. True faith is not a spectator sport.

So many folks on these boards.. I forget who I'm talking with half the time.. not that it matters though... it's not like we know each other..

Yes, true faith acts.. because it's a fruit of the Spirit of God.. although I can't emphasize enough the importance of the object of our faith... ie, place a reward of inheriting everything at the end of the tightrope and then an absolute gaurantee that the end will be made.. and then ask the person if he's willing to go over..

Well, you got that one part right. Most who believe as you deny that fact.

We all make assumptions about this stuff.. about others etc..

"I know you are, but what am I?" Same thing.

That's why I said it.. same thing..

"Us folks" hear you folks just fine, it is you folks who don't want to face the inconsistencies, and examine your beliefs too closely, for fear you may find out you didn't understand it right. We're ttrying to help, and what we get in return is anger, name-calling, hostility, and a refusal to listen. So far, you haven't really gone that far, but it's also obvious to me that you aren't really understanding what I'm saying, because it challenges what you believe to be true.

So here you're basically telling me that I do not understand what you're saying, but that you understand everything that I'm saying.. OK.. so am I understanding you correctly now.. or is there something hidden in what you're actually saying here now..?

It's another one of those.. "I know you are but what am I lines.." lol

Is it working in all of the unsaved, without exception? You're left with two choices: Either man can stop it by refusing to believe, or, what makes the Gospel the power of God unto salvation is the quickening of that Word to the hearts of those being saved by the Spirit of God, and not by the choice of man. Therefore, God chooses whom He will save, and man does not make that choice unaided and without prior action by God specifically to his heart. .

Of course man can stop it by refusing to believe it.. if a person does not believe something.. they do not embrace it as true.. so it has no bearing on their actions.. this is a simple truth..

And of course God is the one who is ultimately placing His Spirit into the heart of those that do receive His testimony.. but again, if that testimony is not received.. then God is not going to seal that person with His Spirit.. this is fundamental, isn't it..?

All men are born lovers of darkness. Those who come to Him have been drawn by Him. It is God who saves man, not man who saves himself by the use of a "provision" of God.

Do you deny that the goodness of God leads us to repentance.. ? Of course not.. Do you deny that the Lord Jesus Christ is that true light which lights every man that comes into the world..? Of course not.. Do you believe that His Spirit convinces men of sin, of righteousness, and of judgment..? Of course you do..

It's not darkness we're talking about.. we ALL have been sitting in darkness.. that's the problem.. the answer is the gospel of God concerning His Son, that great light which came into the world to seek and to save the lost.. all of Adam's race.. which He is responsible for.

Has the Gospel been heard by every man without exception? If not, can they be saved? And if so, by what means? Millions of people lived before Christ, and the vast majority of them went to their graves, as sinners deserving of the Wrath of God. God forbade Paul to go to Asia, and sent him to Europe instead. Those in Asia who did not get to hear the Gospel died in their sins, and God made it so by not allowing Paul to go to Asia. History might have been a lot different if the Turks hadn't become Muslims, because the Gospel was withheld from them. Your theology can't account for such a state of affairs, Calvinism has no problem with God doing as He pleases.

The same gospel teaches us that men are without excuse because God has made things known to them.. it's not a problem of the seed being too scarce, or anything like that.. and even the creation itself testified to the glory of God.

 

[Ben johnson]

I listen (read) everything posted. And I respond very thoroughly and methodically, point by point overturning the "refutations" of Responsibility. Those refutations seem to usually be ignored, but I am subject to charges of "running all over and burying the conversation in lengthy posts".

The posts are lengthy because I'm responding to each and every point.

How many times have I shown that 1Cor2:14 does not support "predestination"? It keeps being cited as if never answered.

Or that 2Cor4:3-4 does not support "predestination"? It keeps being cited as if never refuted.

John10:29 shows up often; even though we point out "harpazo-sieze-FORCIBLY".

We post passages that can never accommodate "Reformed Theology"; this thread is about Romans2, and RT tries to explain it as "Paul is giving them the LETTER of their condemnation". No he's not; he's saying "God's kindness is supposed to lead you to repentance --- but your stubbornness and unrepentant heart are making God MAD". That's as far from "predestination" as can get.

We cite Jesus in Matt23:13; and are told that "they were not really entering in", or "they were not really shut off forever". Jesus said "are entering", period; Jesus said "stopped/shut-off" and "made twice a child of Hell". That sounds pretty "forever" to me. And it sounds like it happens to "those who ARE ENTERING".

With respect, meaning no offense, which side seems better at "listening"?

 

[CCWoody]

Correct; hence the translation, "received". By past, it precedes "become children of God". 1Jn5:1 simply makes a statment about the present; it does not say "they need to be born of God so that they CAN believe". It simply says, whoever believes, is born of God". The argument is resolved when we read John1:12 --- "born of God", equates to "become His children" (further established by verse 13). And John places "received Christ" (clearly denoting belief), before "become children of God".

Do you accept the argument is resolved? Why not?

1 John 5:1 says exactly that the new birth preceeds belief.

Go look it up in the Greek.

BTW, (lambano) received is not a past tense word. It is Aorist. There is a difference. Do you even know what it is? So is gennao, born. Do you understand how that renders all of your statements above wrong?

Abandoned nothing, Woody. If it is "passive", then God created people FOR eternal destruction in Hell.

Do you believe that?

I believe that 2000 years of Greek scholarship are not wrong, unlike you. Hence, I don't doubt that it is passive.

You see, I don't try and force my own ideas about God into the Scripture. I read the Scripture, no matter what it says, to understand the character and nature of God. You can change the Bible however you want but as for me and my house we will trust in the Lord. It is one reason I'm a Calvinist. I read the Bible to learn. I don't read the Bible to change its meaning.

And, what saith the Word: They were fitted [by God] for destruction. You can make up whatever you want and believe it. Fortunately, you are not under me so I don't have to answer in any way for your false teachings in Greek.

It is a perfect passive participle. There are no perfect middle participles in the NT. And, there is a reason for that.

My only job here is to point out for the lurkers that you are not correct. Every single major translation of the Bible renders Rom 9:22 passive. You have been clearly shown that. Yet, you refuse to believe the truth of it.

Oh, well!!!


Recognize that all true Christians will be Calvinists in glory....

Your friendly neighborhood Cordial Calvinist
Woody.​

 

[CCWoody]

With respect, meaning no offense, which side seems better at "listening"?

Let's see....

Are you listening to 2000 years of Greek scholarship regarding the passive voice in Romans 9:22????

Seems to me that you ignore what you don't like, even if that puts you on an island against the entire historical scholarship for Greek.

Your argument is based solely on the fact that you don't like what that makes God. Oh, well, deal with it. Everything he does is just, whether you like it or not.

Recognize that all true Christians will be Calvinists in glory....

Your friendly neighborhood Cordial Calvinist
Woody.​

 

[Rick Otto]

"Paul is giving them the LETTER of their condemnation". No he's not; he's saying "God's kindness is supposed to lead you to repentance --- but your stubbornness and unrepentant heart are making God MAD".

Ben... saying your unrepentant in spite of God's goodness...
that's condemnation, Ben. Realy. It is.

 

[nobdysfool]

Again, that's the point.. although God seeks and saves the lost every day.. His goodness is what leads to repentance and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.

True, but that doesn't mean every man without exception is being led to repentance and faith.

Actually, they are justified by faith.. because that faith is centered upon the Lord Jesus Christ.. (maybe the same thing that you're saying here) and so when they trust in Christ's perfect work of redemption, then they're justified in God's sight.

Splitting hairs. Yes, faith in Christ brings justification, but the source of that Justification rests in the work of Christ, not out faith.

Perhaps you're simply not willing to admit that calvinism is reduced to such a ludicrous thing as this.. that unless God allows a person to believe, then they can't.. it's that simple really.. nothing complicated about it..

Feel free to correct that if you would.. you claim that it's ridiculous, so by all means.. tell me that it isn't true.

Well, it isn't true, but if you're looking for a one-sentence refutation, no one can give that. There are simply too many underlying assumptions that separate us, assumptions that need to be dealt with if there is to be any agreement. That's why Calvinists and non-Calvinists temd to talk past each other, because they may be employing the same or similar words, but they mean radically different things by how they use those words. The difference between you and me is I used to be where you are, but you haven't been where I am.

His words ARE Spirit and life.. that's what the gospel is.. words concerning the Lord Jesus Christ.. God's beloved Son, how that all of the Law and the Prophets point to Him.. and that all things are fulfilled in Him.. etc etc..and the Spirit of God IS in the world, convicting men of sin, of righteousness, and of judgment.. do you deny that..?

Of course not, but what I'm seeing you say is that you believe that the words themselves overcome man's natural resistance to spiritual things, and I believe that the difference that makes those words effective is the Spirit of God actively regenerating those who hear, as many as He chooses, rather than the words themselves. We must be careful to see Jesus' statement in the light that it was given, and not add to it extra concepts which border on believing that the words, in and of themselves, possess magical powers. The power of the Word of God is the Holy Spirit.

And let me say it again so that you're clear.. GOD SEALS every member of His body with HIS SPIRIT.. it's the miraculous work of God.. it's not the work of men.. God simply does this work in those that receive His Son.. ie, as many as received HIM, to them gave HE power to become the sons of God.. to those that believe on His name..

The tiny detail you're slipping in is that you believe that we must first receive Him BEFORE God acts. The Truth is, we don't receive Him UNTIL God FIRST acts, by regenerating the heart, which makes all the rest possible. The sequence is regeneration -> faith ->, receive Him -> justification, forgiveness of sins, sealed with the Spirit -> begin living Christian life.

I think that the parable of the Sower explains quite a bit concerning the interaction between the good incorruptible seed of the word of God and the reasons for why it does not produce results.. the Lord also says that if they would believe with their heart, that HE would heal them..

The parable of the Sower does speak to this to some extent, but not to the lengths some have taken it here. The one undeniable aspect of the parable is that the Seed was broadcast wider than it's intended target: the good soil. There was no expectation of fruit from the seed fallen on rocky and thorny soil. And there wasn't any. the good soil produced fruit, in abundance.

He came unto His own, and His own RECEIVED HIM NOT..

"His own" being Israel. Lucky for us they didn't receive Him.

Let's look at one example of this.. the Pharisees.. couldn't see the truth standing right in front of them.. why..? The Lord tells us why.. because they claimed that they could see.. even though they were blind.. the problem was not with God.. He was right there.. the problem was with those who claimed to know the truth and yet couldn't recognize the truth standing right in front of them..

You must balance that with the fact that God foretold that they would not hear, in fact, it was His intention that they not hear, so that the Gentiles could be included. God was not blind-sided by their hardness of heart, and the inclusion of the Gentiles was not "Plan B"

And here's the crux of the matter.. why does He choose.. ? Is it for some reason known only to God, or is it because they heard the word of truth, the gospel of their salvation, and then trusted in God's Son for the forgiveness of their sins..?

The Word of God says that we are chosen, not based on anything we do or don't do, are doing, or have done. The "purpose according to election" spoken of in Romans 9 is within the counsel of God, some to most of which He has not revealed, and for His own reasons. All we are told is "it seemed good in His sight".

The first scenario reduces us to robots..

Rubbish! That excuse is old as the hills and twice as dusty. It is proof positive of a lack of understanding of Calvinism and/or Reformed Theology.

the second scenario is based upon the truth received being a reason why God would choose to seal a person with the Holy Spirit of promise.

In other words, God rewards them for "doing the right thing". Being sealed is the prize for being smart enough and perceptive enough to overcome your own depravity and believe in spite of how foolish it may seem. You say the magic words, and voila! God rewards you for doing so.

So many folks on these boards.. I forget who I'm talking with half the time.. not that it matters though... it's not like we know each other..

You'll find as time goes by, it's a good idea to keep straight who said what, otherwise, it can get very confusing.

Yes, true faith acts.. because it's a fruit of the Spirit of God.. although I can't emphasize enough the importance of the object of our faith... ie, place a reward of inheriting everything at the end of the tightrope and then an absolute gaurantee that the end will be made.. and then ask the person if he's willing to go over..

Once you get on the tightrope, just getting safely to the other side will be reward enough.....

So here you're basically telling me that I do not understand what you're saying, but that you understand everything that I'm saying.. OK.. so am I understanding you correctly now.. or is there something hidden in what you're actually saying here now..?

It's another one of those.. "I know you are but what am I lines.." lol

Well, I do believe I do understand what you're saying, and the underlying assumptions that go with what you say, than you do of me. That's not bragging, or trying to "one-up" you, or put you down. As I said earlier, I have been where you are, but you haven't been where I am. That's not a judgment of relative worth or intelligence, it is a statement of scope of experience, nothing more.

Of course man can stop it by refusing to believe it.. if a person does not believe something.. they do not embrace it as true.. so it has no bearing on their actions.. this is a simple truth..

And of course God is the one who is ultimately placing His Spirit into the heart of those that do receive His testimony.. but again, if that testimony is not received.. then God is not going to seal that person with His Spirit.. this is fundamental, isn't it..?

Again, you have the sequence of events out of order. God first regenerates the heart, then the heart can hear, understand, and believe the Word of God, ie. the Gospel, and desire that salvation, believing that it is for him, and believe on Christ, to the rest of the process.

Do you deny that the goodness of God leads us to repentance.. ? Of course not.. Do you deny that the Lord Jesus Christ is that true light which lights every man that comes into the world..? Of course not.. Do you believe that His Spirit convinces men of sin, of righteousness, and of judgment..? Of course you do..

It's not darkness we're talking about.. we ALL have been sitting in darkness.. that's the problem.. the answer is the gospel of God concerning His Son, that great light which came into the world to seek and to save the lost.. all of Adam's race.. which He is responsible for.

The same gospel teaches us that men are without excuse because God has made things known to them.. it's not a problem of the seed being too scarce, or anything like that.. and even the creation itself testified to the glory of God.

We agree on a great many things, but I have the feeling that those things are understood slightly differently in how you view these things. Calvinists would not disagree with these statements, but I think we see them lead to a slightly different conclusion that non-Calvinists do.

 

[Ben johnson]

1 John 5:1 says exactly that the new birth preceeds belief.

No it doesn't; it says, "He who believes, is born of God"; it absolutely accommodates the idea of "was born the moment he believed".

Go look it up in the Greek.

Ben der, dun dat.

BTW, (lambano) received is not a past tense word. It is Aorist. There is a difference. Do you even know what it is?

Yup --- aorist, second aorist, etcetera.

So is gennao, born. Do you understand how that renders all of your statements above wrong?

Does not; assign a "present" tense to it --- "To as many as receive Christ, to them He gives the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name."

That absolutely, undeniably, subordinates "become-children", to "believe-receive". Unless you have some way to make "become-children" not mean "born of God", (and given the following verse, Jn1:13, you must), belief precedes born.

I believe that 2000 years of Greek scholarship are not wrong, unlike you. Hence, I don't doubt that it is passive.

"Predestination" has not been taught for 2000 years, Woody.

You see, I don't try and force my own ideas about God into the Scripture.

Are you sure? Then please tell me why Paul rebukes men for "willful unbelief, stubborness against God's patience and kindness that is MEANT to lead to repentance"? Tell me how you understand Matt23:13; were they "not really entering in to Heaven"? Or were they "not really stopped/shut-off"? Which, and why?

I read the Scripture, no matter what it says, to understand the character and nature of God.

Let's see how you answer Rom2:2-8, and Matt23:13-15. Will you?

You can change the Bible however you want but as for me and my house we will trust in the Lord. It is one reason I'm a Calvinist. I read the Bible to learn. I don't read the Bible to change its meaning.

I look forward with great expectation to your understandings of Rom2:2-8, and Matt23:13-15.

And, what saith the Word: They were fitted [by God] for destruction.

And that view would completely reverse what Paul said in Rom3:28: "God is just and justifier of he who believes". It changes into "God is just (because He says so, even though the condemned had no other choice), and justifier of whom He chose FOR belief."

I see the difference between your view and mine, is that you mis-understand God's position; God receives man's faith (how else can we read Heb11:6), He doesn't MACHINATE it.

You can make up whatever you want and believe it.

Oh, I think everything I've said here has been fully backed by Scripture, after Scripture.

...that's one reason I get "rebuked for verbosity".

Fortunately, you are not under me so I don't have to answer in any way for your false teachings in Greek.

Did you look at the thread on Acts13:48? Those Greek Scholars are very certain that it's "middle".

It is a perfect passive participle. There are no perfect middle participles in the NT. And, there is a reason for that.

To be frank, God does not cause sin, He does not MOLD vessels to BE sinful and destined for Hell.

It's not His fault; I thought Calvinists agreed with that. (NO disrespect intended, whatsoever.)

My only job here is to point out for the lurkers that you are not correct. Every single major translation of the Bible renders Rom 9:22 passive. You have been clearly shown that. Yet, you refuse to believe the truth of it.

What if it was intended to convey, "They were destined to destruction by their willful sin and willful corruption"? That would fully compliment Rom2:2-8, wouldn't it?

Oh, well!!!

I think it's more than "lurkers" here, Woody; I think that in time, the sheer magnitude of verses that assert "personal responsibility and choice", will slowly convince you that man comes to God BY faith, which He RECEIVES (Heb11:6, Acts10:34-35), rather than God coming to man first and regenerating him which leads (irresistibly) to saving-faith.

Your argument is based solely on the fact that you don't like what that makes God. Oh, well, deal with it. Everything he does is just, whether you like it or not.

No, my argument is based solely on Scripture. And the idea of "JUST", is a Universal Absolute; God cannot be wicked and CALL it "just" because He's God; God cannot be wicked at all, He cannot tempt anyone, and He cannot cause anyone to sin or perish. By definition, Rom3:26 is one of many examples that "belief CAUSES (receives) God's justification".

Salvation is not God's choice for men; it's each man's. (Or woman's.) And on the day of Judgment, each will be judged FOR his decision to believe, or rebel.

...just as Rom2:6-8 says...

 

[Ben johnson]

Simple stuff...

"Paul is giving them the LETTER of their condemnation". No he's not; he's saying "God's kindness is supposed to lead you to repentance --- but your stubbornness and unrepentant heart are making God MAD".

Ben... saying you're unrepentant in spite of God's goodness...
that's condemnation, Ben. Really. It is.

Yes!!! Exactly! Condemnation --- of what???

God does not condemn His OWN sovereign decision.
The condemnation is of their willful unbelief!

That's the only reason that a passage such as Rom2:2-8 was written.

Can we deny it?

 

[Rick Otto]

You are overlooking the answers.

"Condemnation --- of what???"

of their willful unbelief!

Will is predestined.
I have no problem coping with either your deconstruction or your perception of it as ridiculous.

Ben, you simply cannot reconcile the existence of personal responsibility & real choice with predestination, even after both have been repeatedly shown you in
Ac 2:23 - Show Context Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

There ya have it, Ben. The crucifixion was part of God's plan, but the men are held accountable. I understand you not thinking it's fair that way, but you leave me wondering what part of creation you think is yours.

 

[Ben johnson]

It appears you are the only one who thinks so....The fact remains, you have been refuted, repeatedly, and your refusal to accept it does not change the fact one whit.

Refutation that declares "stopped/shut-off" doesn't mean "shut off forever", in Matt23:13? Please tell me how "you make him twice a child of Hell", can encompass "...but if God has sovereignly ELECTED him, that 'child-of-Hell-NOW', will enter at a time God has DECREED"?

Why would He call someone a "child of Hell", if He thought that person was "sovereignly predestined to salvation"?

What makes you think that we will accept your declaration of refutation, when you refuse to even truly listen to anything we say? You run all over, hither and yon, rather than discuss one passage, and stick with it.

In the thread "How Is Calvinist Refuted", I listed six clear specific points; will you answer them?

You claim it's because all this and that tie together, but what it really is, is you running from scripture to scripture to avoid being pinned down.

"Pinning down", is what those six points are all about.

That's not debate, that's just a refusal to admit that you can't dig deep, because yor theology would be exposed for the inconsistencies, errors, and faulty logic you employ.

Here's your chance --- let's discuss the "inconsistencies, errors, and faulty logic" in those six points.

I don't expect you to truly understand what I just said, you never have in the past, but within the last paragraph is the exact reason why I will no longer tolerate or engage in discussion with you.

Not-discussing, is always an option; but if you don't answer specific and "pinned-down" points, it will appear as though your position (Calvinism) is refuted.

You're wrong, you've been proven wrong, and your denial does not change or set aside that clear fact.

Show me the substance of "proven-wrong".

Please answer the six points. Here.

Unless anyone can overturn (with Scripture) any of those points, then it's established that "belief precedes regeneration".

 

[Ben johnson]

You are overlooking the answers.

"Condemnation --- of what???"
of their willful unbelief!

Yes, exactly!

Will is predestined.

Uhmmm --- "willful unbelief", but "will is predestined"?

How can man be accountable for "will that is predestined"? How can "willful unbelief, ever be God's DESIRE"?

I have no problem coping with either your deconstruction or your perception of it as ridiculous.

"Ridiculous", has as its root "ridicule"; I would never ridicule you, Rick. It's clear to anyone that your heart yearns for God through Christ. No, my friend, I do not consider it "ridiculous"; only "a little off from Scripture".

Ben, you simply cannot reconcile the existence of personal responsibility & real choice with predestination...

Sure I can; predestination of men, does not exist.

even after both have been repeatedly shown you in
Ac 2:23 - Show Context Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

There ya have it, Ben. The crucifixion was part of God's plan...

Yup --- Jesus was "known before the beginning" (predestined to die, and to live again). 1Pet1:20-21.

... but the men are held accountable.

No, they're not --- that is, if their unbelief was predestined.

I understand you not thinking it's fair that way...

How I think, doesn't matter; how Scripture was written, does.

but you leave me wondering what part of creation you think is yours.

My "part", is as Paul eloquently said in 2Tim1:12-14, "God guards what we entrust, and WE guard what HE entrusts".

Guard, Rick; by the Holy Spirit, but we guard. As Peter said, "be all the more diligent about calling and election (against the one who WAS purified but FELL), so that the gates of Heaven BE provided to us".

 

[Markea]

True, but that doesn't mean every man without exception is being led to repentance and faith.

How do you know this..?

Is not the Lord calling all men to repentance..?

Splitting hairs. Yes, faith in Christ brings justification, but the source of that Justification rests in the work of Christ, not out faith.

It's a two way street though.. if there's no faith in Christ, then there's no justification..

Well, it isn't true, but if you're looking for a one-sentence refutation, no one can give that. There are simply too many underlying assumptions that separate us, assumptions that need to be dealt with if there is to be any agreement. That's why Calvinists and non-Calvinists temd to talk past each other, because they may be employing the same or similar words, but they mean radically different things by how they use those words.

It is true.. the bottom line in calvinistic thinking is that God must allow a person to believe the gospel, or it does not happen..

That's what it all boils down to.. I can't imagine why you'd say it isn't true when this is the basic message that you folks consistently send..

The difference between you and me is I used to be where you are, but you haven't been where I am.

Oh right.. the ol' I haven't been where you're at line.. lol.. that's funny..

Of course not, but what I'm seeing you say is that you believe that the words themselves overcome man's natural resistance to spiritual things, and I believe that the difference that makes those words effective is the Spirit of God actively regenerating those who hear, as many as He chooses, rather than the words themselves. We must be careful to see Jesus' statement in the light that it was given, and not add to it extra concepts which border on believing that the words, in and of themselves, possess magical powers. The power of the Word of God is the Holy Spirit.

So let me ask you this..

Are His words spirit and life..? Yes or no..?

The tiny detail you're slipping in is that you believe that we must first receive Him BEFORE God acts.

This simply reveals that YOU do not understand what I'm saying.. because that's certainly NOT true.. God acts first through the message of the gospel..which IS the POWER OF GOD unto SALVATION.. and there's also the unsearchable dynamics of how the Spirit of God is convicting a person through whatever circumstances and events which take place in our lives..

The Truth is, we don't receive Him UNTIL God FIRST acts, by regenerating the heart, which makes all the rest possible.

This is biblically incorrect.. the sequence is hearing the gospel and then believing.. ie.. like this..

[bible]Ephesians 1:13-14[/bible]

It's obviously the other way around.. we're sealed with the Holy Spirit of God (miraculous act of God) after we TRUST in Christ, AFTER hearing the word of truth, and AFTER we believe it..

The sequence is regeneration -> faith ->, receive Him -> justification, forgiveness of sins, sealed with the Spirit -> begin living Christian life.

There's no scriptural support for regeneration taking place first.. the scriptures are full of people HEARING the word of God and THEN acting upon its premise.

The parable of the Sower does speak to this to some extent, but not to the lengths some have taken it here. The one undeniable aspect of the parable is that the Seed was broadcast wider than it's intended target: the good soil. There was no expectation of fruit from the seed fallen on rocky and thorny soil. And there wasn't any. the good soil produced fruit, in abundance.

So the Lord sows all over regardless of His knowing that many will not receive Him.. this then becomes the means of condemnation.. because light HAS come into the WORLD (broad sowing there), but men loved darkness because THEIR deeds were evil.

This goes back to the fact that He is that true light which lights every man that comes into the world.. although that doesn't mandate that all receive that light.. many reject that light.. it's not that it wasn't sown here or there, or that they were not offered the free gift of salvation.. it was that they rejected the very means of their salvation which was through Christ.

"His own" being Israel. Lucky for us they didn't receive Him.

Many Jews DID receive Him, and they still can today.. it wasn't luck at all.. it was foretold throughout the OT scriptures that Christ would be rejected of His own and that He would be a light unto the Gentiles.

You must balance that with the fact that God foretold that they would not hear, in fact, it was His intention that they not hear, so that the Gentiles could be included. God was not blind-sided by their hardness of heart, and the inclusion of the Gentiles was not "Plan B"

No here's another point of contention.. I don't believe that it was God's intent that anyone reject Him.. He foretold that it would happen because He knew that it would happen.. that does not mean that He is forcing people to reject Him.. that's ridiculous as far as I'm concerned, and I can't imagine why people attribute this type of thing to the Lord Jesus Christ..

Just because He knows what is going to happen does not mandate that He is making it happen.. There's His perfect will and there is His allowable will where He is longsuffering toward those that are gone astray.. which includes every one of us..

The Word of God says that we are chosen, not based on anything we do or don't do, are doing, or have done.

My bible teaches me that I'm chosen IN CHRIST, accepted IN HIM.. not because of my own righteousness, but because of the righteousness of GOD which is by faith.. it even tells us that people are NOT chosen because they try to establish their own righteousness rather than submitting to His righteousness..

The "purpose according to election" spoken of in Romans 9 is within the counsel of God, some to most of which He has not revealed, and for His own reasons. All we are told is "it seemed good in His sight".

Many calvinists seem to confuse God's purpose according to election with that of salvation.. ? ?

Rubbish! That excuse is old as the hills and twice as dusty. It is proof positive of a lack of understanding of Calvinism and/or Reformed Theology.

Again, that's the bottom line in calvinistic thinking.. God must allow me to believe or it's futile.. period, end of story.. and this reduces His creation to robots who either get turned on or remain off. You can deny it til the cows come home although that's the bottom line here.

In other words, God rewards them for "doing the right thing". Being sealed is the prize for being smart enough and perceptive enough to overcome your own depravity and believe in spite of how foolish it may seem. You say the magic words, and voila! God rewards you for doing so.

God knows your heart.. Did He win your heart or was there some mindless and heartless transaction where you simply woke up one day and found yourself IN CHRIST for no apprarent reason.. ?

You'll find as time goes by, it's a good idea to keep straight who said what, otherwise, it can get very confusing.

I Lose interest fast in these type of discussions... it's an old horse with too much beating..

Once you get on the tightrope, just getting safely to the other side will be reward enough.....

That's why it's important as to WHO is the object of our faith.. He's not just the Author of it.. He is the finisher of it as well.. Christian faith is certainly not blind faith..

Well, I do believe I do understand what you're saying, and the underlying assumptions that go with what you say, than you do of me. That's not bragging, or trying to "one-up" you, or put you down. As I said earlier, I have been where you are, but you haven't been where I am. That's not a judgment of relative worth or intelligence, it is a statement of scope of experience, nothing more.

How do you know.. ? You have no idea what scope of experience I have etc.. I've dealt with these type of discussions for years.. this is not new to me.. and your comment about not being where YOU ARE is exactly what you say it's not.. it is bragging.. it's plainly saying that you're above another person because of your opinion.. that's all.. it's silly if you ask me.

Again, you have the sequence of events out of order. God first regenerates the heart, then the heart can hear, understand, and believe the Word of God, ie. the Gospel, and desire that salvation, believing that it is for him, and believe on Christ, to the rest of the process.

This too is simply your opinion, and there's vast portions of scripture revealing that people HEAR the word of God first and then react to its message.. God knowing the heart, then purifies the heart by faith..

We agree on a great many things, but I have the feeling that those things are understood slightly differently in how you view these things. Calvinists would not disagree with these statements, but I think we see them lead to a slightly different conclusion that non-Calvinists do.

Again, it's not complicated.. the only major difference is that calvinists claim that God must allow a person to believe, or that will not happen..

 

[vekarppe]

Oh ... this is endless debate and I don't see point in this at all. What is it? To to compete who have pures doctrine? And how does this strength our faith in Christ and love to each other?

 

[nobdysfool]

You are overlooking the answers.

Yes, exactly!
Uhmmm --- "willful unbelief", but "will is predestined"?

How can man be accountable for "will that is predestined"? How can "willful unbelief, ever be God's DESIRE"?

Why do you insist on measuring God by your own flawed, darkened understanding, and insist that He must be the way you think He must be?

"Ridiculous", has as its root "ridicule"; I would never ridicule you, Rick. It's clear to anyone that your heart yearns for God through Christ. No, my friend, I do not consider it "ridiculous"; only "a little off from Scripture".

As you want to interpret it. Somehow, you seem to think that your interpretation of scripture is above questioning, but ours is not.

Sure I can; predestination of men, does not exist.

That's not an answer, that's denial.

Yup --- Jesus was "known before the beginning" (predestined to die, and to live again). 1Pet1:20-21.

If Christ was predestined, (and He was) then all other things must be predestined as well,. simple logic.

No, they're not --- that is, if their unbelief was predestined.

Predestination and responsibility are not mutually exclusive, no matter how much you want them to be. Predestination and responsibility do not oppose each other at all. Your problem is a wrong view of God on the one hand, and a wrong view of the depth of depravity and magnitude of the Fall of Adam on the other hand. You have recast God in the image of man, and denied the full effect of sin on mankind.

How I think, doesn't matter; how Scripture was written, does.

You don't see the circular reasoning here. You interpret scripture, then insist that your interpretation is "how scripture is written", thereby equating your interpretation with scripture itself, as one and the same. That is faulty logic, and a clear indication of self-deception.

My "part", is as Paul eloquently said in 2Tim1:12-14, "God guards what we entrust, and WE guard what HE entrusts".

Guard, Rick; by the Holy Spirit, but we guard. As Peter said, "be all the more diligent about calling and election (against the one who WAS purified but FELL), so that the gates of Heaven BE provided to us".

But your focus and emphasis is on what we must do, and an almost complete denial of what God has promised to do. You gloss over God's promises, to focus on what you think God expects from us, thereby creating an imbalanced and distorted view of salvation and the Christian walk.

And you refuse to let anyone correct you, or help you to a more balanced view. You want to be the "big kahuna" in these forums, setting the parameteres and tone of any and all debates about this subject, and completely marginalize and demonize any view that does not coincide with your own. Your attitude is one of "I'm not here to learn, but to teach".