Romans2 (and predestination)

[Ben johnson]

"Do you think lightly of the riches of God's kindness and forbearance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart, you are storing up WRATH for yourself in the day of righteous judment of God, who will render to each man according to his deeds. To those who by doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation...." 2:4-8

Let's see if we can begin with agreement. Is there any other meaning for "wrath-and-indignation", than "not eternal life"?



OK --- in this passage, do you see "sovereign predestination" (and "gifted repentance", or "repentance-consequential-to-God's-election")? Or do you see a true rebuke towards repentance?

...also....

Are men awarded "eternal life", or "wrath", based on GOD'S sovereign decree? Or is it because of what THEY seek?

Looking forward to a good discussion, between true brothers (and sisters) in Christ (even if we do not agree on everything...)

 

[nobdysfool]

Well, you start off with more than a few assumptions, which is a poor way to discern the meaning of any passage of scripture. The whole tone of your starting post is that of trying to find any and all ways to deny predestination, when that is not even the subject of the passage you quoted. So, you're imposing something onto the passage that is not even addressed. If we are to find the meaning of the passage, we need to do away with such assumptions and impositions, or there is no point in going any further.

You're trying to frame the discussion in a way that gives you the "upper hand" in the discussion. Quite frankly, that's not the right way to approach it.

 

[GLJCA]

Let's see if we can begin with agreement. Is there any other meaning for "wrath-and-indignation", than "not eternal life"?

First let's allow scripture to interpret scripture.
Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

Jude 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ. Hmmm I wonder what "before of old" means? Could that be the same as "fore"?

Rom 9:22 [What] if God, willing to shew [his] wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
Wow there is that concept again. God's wrath is against the vessels fitted to destruction, and the riches of His glory is bestowed on the vessels of mercy, which He had "afore" prepared unto glory. That sure sounds like PRE-DESTINATION to me.

Eph 5:6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
Notice God's wrath is against all who are not His people. Eph 2:2 shows that the children of disobedience are not God's Covenant people.

Secondly let's interpret scripture correctly
Rom 2:5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
To whom was this written? The Church in Rome, God's covenant people.

Can this verse be applied to lost people? Absolutely not. If it can then all scripture can be applied to lost people, even the promises of God to His covenant people. The epistles were written to the Church of Jesus Christ, not lost people.

What was the chapter dealing with?
1. vv. 1-5 Jewish members of the church who were judging their brothers according to the law and then doing or saying the same thing that they were judging.

2. v. 6 God's judgment will be according to our deeds.

3. vv.7-10 the good works of the saved person will be judged. I hope that you don't think that a lost person that does good works will be saved according to those good works. (I would hope that you don't but on the other hand you do believe that one does not have to hear about Jesus Christ to be saved so I don't know.)

4. v. 11-16 God shows no difference between the Jew and the Gentile concerning salvation. The law written on the heart is a promise of the New Covenant, which may I add is not given to anyone but the people who put their trust in Christ, therefore this can not be applied to lost people. Lost Gentiles do not have the law of God written in their hearts only those who are the New Covenant people of God.

5. He finishes the chapter by showing that a true Jew is one who, not only has the outward sign of the covenant but who also has the inward spiritual sign, which equals the Gentile with the Jew.

Can you see why it is important to interpret the scriptures according to the context of the chapter and then the whole Canon? If you take scripture out of context you can make it say whatever you want, which is what you have done here, but in context there is but one interpretation.

GLJCA

 

[themuzicman]

Well, you start off with more than a few assumptions, which is a poor way to discern the meaning of any passage of scripture. The whole tone of your starting post is that of trying to find any and all ways to deny predestination, when that is not even the subject of the passage you quoted. So, you're imposing something onto the passage that is not even addressed. If we are to find the meaning of the passage, we need to do away with such assumptions and impositions, or there is no point in going any further.

You're trying to frame the discussion in a way that gives you the "upper hand" in the discussion. Quite frankly, that's not the right way to approach it.

Wow.. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black...

Muz

 

[Ben johnson]

Well, you start off with more than a few assumptions, which is a poor way to discern the meaning of any passage of scripture. The whole tone of your starting post is that of trying to find any and all ways to deny predestination, when that is not even the subject of the passage you quoted. So, you're imposing something onto the passage that is not even addressed. If we are to find the meaning of the passage, we need to do away with such assumptions and impositions, or there is no point in going any further.

You're trying to frame the discussion in a way that gives you the "upper hand" in the discussion. Quite frankly, that's not the right way to approach it.

The question is simply, "Why would he say 'God's patience and kindness is supposed to lead you to repentance, but you're UNrepentant and it's making God MAD'?"

 

[nobdysfool]

The question is simply, "Why would he say 'God's patience and kindness is supposed to lead you to repentance, but you're UNrepentant and it's making God MAD'?"

Is that what it says, Ben?

Or is that the way you interpret what it says? Perhaps you're reading into the verses what you want them to say. It's easy to find something on the ground, when you put it there.

Take a look at what GLJCA wrote in reply. I think he has a much better grasp of things.

 

[themuzicman]

Secondly let's interpret scripture correctly

Yes, let's do that, shall we?

Rom 2:5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
To whom was this written? The Church in Rome, God's covenant people.

Can this verse be applied to lost people? Absolutely not. If it can then all scripture can be applied to lost people, even the promises of God to His covenant people. The epistles were written to the Church of Jesus Christ, not lost people.

However, you aren't looking at a big enough picture, here. Paul is actually saying that anyone who lives without sinning would receive glory, and those who sin would receive wrath. This applies to everyone.

Your problem is that you don't keep reading to the end. Paul builds this case, and then proceeds to demonstrate, and then to state "ALL HAVE SINNED" (Rom 3:23)

This isn't about covenant promises at all, but laying a foundation for tearing down any notion that one might be saved by being righteous, even through the Old Covenant.

And Paul make sure that this applies to everyone, since in Verse 14, he says that even Gentiles, who do not have the law, are guilty of breaking the law when they demonstrate knowledge of the law by doing works of the law.

So, when we interpret, let us do it correctly. I agree.

What was the chapter dealing with?
1. vv. 1-5 Jewish members of the church who were judging their brothers according to the law and then doing or saying the same thing that they were judging.

2. v. 6 God's judgment will be according to our deeds.

3. vv.7-10 the good works of the saved person will be judged. I hope that you don't think that a lost person that does good works will be saved according to those good works. (I would hope that you don't but on the other hand you do believe that one does not have to hear about Jesus Christ to be saved so I don't know.)

4. v. 11-16 God shows no difference between the Jew and the Gentile concerning salvation. The law written on the heart is a promise of the New Covenant, which may I add is not given to anyone but the people who put their trust in Christ, therefore this can not be applied to lost people. Lost Gentiles do not have the law of God written in their hearts only those who are the New Covenant people of God.

5. He finishes the chapter by showing that a true Jew is one who, not only has the outward sign of the covenant but who also has the inward spiritual sign, which equals the Gentile with the Jew.

Can you see why it is important to interpret the scriptures according to the context of the chapter and then the whole Canon? If you take scripture out of context you can make it say whatever you want, which is what you have done here, but in context there is but one interpretation.

GLJCA

Unfortunately, you fail in the same way, because Paul clearly states that ALL SIN, and removes every person from any possibility of glory based upon their own works in Chapter two.

Muz

 

[Hammster]

First let's allow scripture to interpret scripture.
Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

Jude 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ. Hmmm I wonder what "before of old" means? Could that be the same as "fore"?

The kjv rendering of the word 'ordained' is not the same usage as elsewhere. If you look at the definition, it will spell this out. So what Jude is saying is that it has been talked about since the old days that there would always be men who tried to stir up trouble.

Rom 9:22 [What] if God, willing to shew [his] wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
Wow there is that concept again. God's wrath is against the vessels fitted to destruction, and the riches of His glory is bestowed on the vessels of mercy, which He had "afore" prepared unto glory. That sure sounds like PRE-DESTINATION to me.

But God isn't showing mercy here on the vessels of honor. Rather, He is showing mercy on the vessels fitted for destruction, because they are the ones who need mercy. The rest of Romans 9 spells this out.

Eph 5:6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
Notice God's wrath is against all who are not His people. Eph 2:2 shows that the children of disobedience are not God's Covenant people.

But some of the children of disobedience become covenant people.

Secondly let's interpret scripture correctly
Rom 2:5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
To whom was this written? The Church in Rome, God's covenant people.

As is all of the NT.

Can this verse be applied to lost people? Absolutely not. If it can then all scripture can be applied to lost people, even the promises of God to His covenant people. The epistles were written to the Church of Jesus Christ, not lost people.

While I agree that the epistles were written to the church, that does not mean that everything written is about the church. I see a lot in Romans 1 that does not apply to the church.

What was the chapter dealing with?
1. vv. 1-5 Jewish members of the church who were judging their brothers according to the law and then doing or saying the same thing that they were judging.

2. v. 6 God's judgment will be according to our deeds.

3. vv.7-10 the good works of the saved person will be judged. I hope that you don't think that a lost person that does good works will be saved according to those good works. (I would hope that you don't but on the other hand you do believe that one does not have to hear about Jesus Christ to be saved so I don't know.)

4. v. 11-16 God shows no difference between the Jew and the Gentile concerning salvation. The law written on the heart is a promise of the New Covenant, which may I add is not given to anyone but the people who put their trust in Christ, therefore this can not be applied to lost people. Lost Gentiles do not have the law of God written in their hearts only those who are the New Covenant people of God.

I don't find that view in some of the RT people I read. What they say it means is that we have all done some good before salvation because God has written on our hearts to do those things. It is the light given to man which is ultimately rejected by some. But even pagans can honor their parents, stay in a lifelong marriage (or even get married), tell the truth, not murder, not steal, etc.

5. He finishes the chapter by showing that a true Jew is one who, not only has the outward sign of the covenant but who also has the inward spiritual sign, which equals the Gentile with the Jew.

Can you see why it is important to interpret the scriptures according to the context of the chapter and then the whole Canon? If you take scripture out of context you can make it say whatever you want, which is what you have done here, but in context there is but one interpretation.

GLJCA

And I can make an equal argument that you have taken scripture out of context and made it say what you want it to say. I say that the whole cannon of Scripture teaches that God made man for a relationship, man sinned, and God made a way to reconcile man to Himself, but that some will reject His offer.

 

[Ben johnson]

First let's allow scripture to interpret scripture.
Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness...

Wrath --- why? Because He "fore-chose"? Or because they were unrighteous?

Jude 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation...

Robertson's Word Pictures:
Set forth (progegrammenoi). Perfect passive participle of prograpw, to write of beforehand, for which verb see Galatians 3:1; Romans 15:4. Unto this condemnation (eiߠtouto to krima). See 2 Peter 2:3 for krima and ekpalai. Palai here apparently alludes to verses Jude 14,15 (Enoch). Ungodly men (asebei߼/B>). ungodly men...

turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ. Hmmm I wonder what "before of old" means? Could that be the same as "fore"?

It means, "by their ungodliness, they were set forth for condemnation."

You are wanting it to say "God predestined them for sin and corruption, therefore condemnation". It doesn't matter whether His "predestination for sin" is direct (active, sovereign will), or indirect (neglecting them to their inheritted depravity); your position assigns their demise as God's choice.

Rom 9:22 [What] if God...

A hypothetical, written in answer to those who object to "ALSO GENTILES"...

willing to shew [his] wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

Fitted (kathrtismena). Perfect passive participle of katartizw, "equip". No indication that GOD did it, nor does it deny the idea of "THEY did it".

23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory...

Does not deny "prepared by their faithful reception of His mercy". Mercy is received, not ordained.

Wow there is that concept again. God's wrath is against the vessels fitted to destruction, and the riches of His glory is bestowed on the vessels of mercy, which He had "afore" prepared unto glory. That sure sounds like PRE-DESTINATION to me.

No, it reflects chapter 2: "Those who BY doing good (vessels of mercy, afore-prepared (proetoimazw --- see Eph2:10, "God prepared good works beforehand that we might walk in them")", and "those who BY pursuing unrighteousness, were prepared for destruction". By perceiving God as the "causative agent", that denies Romans 2.

Eph 5:6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.

Don't skip verse 5 (and please continue through verse 11!): "This you know with certainty, that no immoral man, nor impure person, nor covetous man, idolater, has an inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. Let no one deceive you with empty words; for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. Therefore, do not be partakers with them; for you were formerly darkness, but now you are light in the Lord; walk as children of the light, (for the fruit of the light consists in all goodness and righteousness and truth), trying to learn what is pleasing to the Lord. And do not participate in the u fruitful deeds of darkness, but instead expose them...."

See if you can deny that WE are warned not to "walk in the SAME darkness that forbids THEM from entering the kingdom of Christ and God"!

Notice God's wrath is against all who are not His people.

No, it is "against all who DO these things"...

Eph 2:2 shows that the children of disobedience are not God's Covenant people.

Please respond to what I just quoted, Eph5:5-11. "Predestination" is fully overturned.

Secondly let's interpret scripture correctly
Rom 2:5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
To whom was this written? The Church in Rome, God's covenant people.

But what is causal to "eternal life", and what is causal to "wrath"? God, or their deeds?

Can this verse be applied to lost people? Absolutely not. If it can then all scripture can be applied to lost people, even the promises of God to His covenant people. The epistles were written to the Church of Jesus Christ, not lost people.

So --- you're contending that "those who pursue wickedness, who will receive (instead of eternal life) 'wrath and indignation' ", are SAVED?

Are they?

What was the chapter dealing with?
1. vv. 1-5 Jewish members of the church who were judging their brothers according to the law and then doing or saying the same thing that they were judging.

SAVED "hypocrites"? Yes, or no, GL.

2. v. 6 God's judgment will be according to our deeds.

3. vv.7-10 the good works of the saved person will be judged. I hope that you don't think that a lost person that does good works will be saved according to those good works.

Jesus said, "No good tree will produce bad fruit, no bad tree will produce good". Therefore, when Paul says "judged according to our deeds", it does reflect "eternal life" and "eternal condemnation". This reflects in Rev20:12.

We are not saved by "good deeds", and none are condemned by "evil deeds"; but good deeds expose a heart which was saved by Jesus, and evil deeds reflect a heart that is absent Jesus and His salvation.

(I would hope that you don't but on the other hand you do believe that one does not have to hear about Jesus Christ to be saved so I don't know.)

Paul believed that --- why shouldn't I?

4. v. 11-16 God shows no difference between the Jew and the Gentile concerning salvation. The law written on the heart is a promise of the New Covenant, which may I add is not given to anyone but the people who put their trust in Christ, therefore this can not be applied to lost people. Lost Gentiles do not have the law of God written in their hearts only those who are the New Covenant people of God.

You are imposing "predestined-election". Those who have Jesus-the-Law written in their hearts, will enter Heaven; context says "they can have Him, never having had the Law".

5. He finishes the chapter by showing that a true Jew is one who, not only has the outward sign of the covenant but who also has the inward spiritual sign, which equals the Gentile with the Jew.

And we might include Rom9:8, that it is not just descendants of Abraham, but children of the promise are regarded as descendants.

...and once we include chapter 9, we'll hafta include 30-33, where the Israelites failed "BY pursuing works RATHER than faith"...

Can you see why it is important to interpret the scriptures according to the context of the chapter and then the whole Canon?

Well, my friend --- we've studied the context, and "predestination" failed.

If you take scripture out of context you can make it say whatever you want, which is what you have done here, but in context there is but one interpretation.

And you have not explained why he was berating the audience, saying "God's patience is supposed to make you repent; but (by stubborn unrepentance) you're making God MAD.

Why would God get mad at willful unrepentance, if He didn't MEAN for them TO repent? And why get mad at the others, if He knew that the "elect" only repented because He REGENERATED them?

How do Paul's words make sense under "predestination"?

 

[cygnusx1]

How do Paul's words make sense under "predestination"?

first answer ;

how does it make sense TO YOU that God would require perfection which cannot be given ?


How does it make sense to you that God would command Pharoah to let The Israelites go and harden Pharoahs heart to make him refuse to let the people go , and then punish him for not letting the people go!

How does it make sense to you that Job was inflicted by a good God granting permission to an attack of Satan upon an "innocent" man and then watching him suffer!


How does it make sense to you that God sends the Assyrians agaist Israel then punishes the Assyrians for it !


I submit using simplistic logic , which guides your every step will not avail you of any logical answers.

 

[heymikey80]

"Do you think lightly of the riches of God's kindness and forbearance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart, you are storing up WRATH for yourself in the day of righteous judment of God, who will render to each man according to his deeds. To those who by doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation...." 2:4-8

Let's see if we can begin with agreement. Is there any other meaning for "wrath-and-indignation", than "not eternal life"?

Not to me.

OK --- in this passage, do you see "sovereign predestination" (and "gifted repentance", or "repentance-consequential-to-God's-election")? Or do you see a true rebuke towards repentance?

As I view that you think the latter, do you see Paul rebuking, or do you see God's kindness as rebuking?

Paul's saying God's kindness leads them to repentance. Is His kindness Paul's rebuke? Or is Paul's rebuke in light of their neglecting His kindness?

Are men awarded "eternal life", or "wrath", based on GOD'S sovereign decree? Or is it because of what THEY seek?

Wow, a false combination, a false dichotomy and a rhetorical presumption, all in one sentence. Reprobation is from what people seek; people aren't "awarded" eternal life, they're given it; people are given eternal life through election based on God's sovereign decree.

 

[Ben johnson]

first answer ;

how does it make sense TO YOU that God would require perfection which cannot be given ?

He's not calling for perfection; he's calling for "repentance". In Acts17:30, "God commands all men everywhere to repent". The Calvinistic response is "God's command doesn't mean they can DO what He commands".

...but in Rom2, Paul says "God's patience is MEANT to lead you to repentance; but your stubborn unrepentedness is making God MAD".

How can the idea of "they can't do what God commands", continue? Clearly, they CAN repent, and they CAN refuse. God wouldn't get mad at what He Himself decreed.

How does it make sense to you that God would command Pharoah to let The Israelites go and harden Pharoahs heart to make him refuse to let the people go , and then punish him for not letting the people go!

We're not talking about Pharaoh; we're talking about Rom2.

How does it make sense to you that Job was inflicted by a good God granting permission to an attack of Satan upon an "innocent" man and then watching him suffer!

We're talking about Romans2. Why would God get mad, at what He Himself decreed?

How does it make sense to you that God sends the Assyrians agaist Israel then punishes the Assyrians for it !

In Romans2, God's patience is MEANT to lead to repentance. Is repentance something God gifts, perhaps the consequence of His sovereign election and monergistic regeneration, or is repentance a willful choice?

I submit using simplistic logic, which guides your every step will not avail you of any logical answers.

Simply answer the question, my friend. God's patience is MEANT to lead to repentance; can that fit "repentance is GOD'S decision", or can it only fit "repentance is both commanded and resistible"?

 

[Ben johnson]

Not to me.

Excellent.

As I view that you think the latter, do you see Paul rebuking, or do you see God's kindness as rebuking?

I see "God's kindness, patience and forebearance, are MEANT to lead you to repentance; but your stubborn resisting is making God MAD".

Why would God get mad at what He Himself decreed?

Paul's saying God's kindness leads them to repentance. Is His kindness Paul's rebuke? Or is Paul's rebuke in light of their neglecting His kindness?

Can we deny their "willful neglect"?

Are men awarded "eternal life", or "wrath", based on GOD'S sovereign decree? Or is it because of what THEY seek?

Wow, a false combination, a false dichotomy and a rhetorical presumption, all in one sentence. Reprobation is from what people seek...

If God chooses NOT to save people, then His wrath is on them because of His sovereign choice NOT to save them. Conflict.

... people aren't "awarded" eternal life

Yes they are: "...receive the reward of the inheritance..." Col3:25
"To those who by doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life..." Rom2:7

they're given it

Given it by grace; do we receive it by GOD'S faith, or do we receive it by OUR faith?

"Receiving as the outcome of YOUR FAITH the salvation of your souls." 1Pet1:9

people are given eternal life through election based on God's sovereign decree.

Please explain how that makes sense.

God's kindness is MEANT to lead us to repentance (and salvation).
But stubborn refusal makes God MAD, and He will JUDGE those who refuse.
...but repentance and salvation are by election based on God's sovereign decree.

How does that make sense?

Why does God get MAD, at what He Himself decreed???

 

[cygnusx1]

He's not calling for perfection; he's calling for "repentance". In Acts17:30, "God commands all men everywhere to repent". The Calvinistic response is "God's command doesn't mean they can DO what He commands".

God commands us to be perfect ben , so again you deny God's word!

...but in Rom2, Paul says "God's patience is MEANT to lead you to repentance; but your stubborn unrepentedness is making God MAD".

How can the idea of "they can't do what God commands", continue? Clearly, they CAN repent, and they CAN refuse. God wouldn't get mad at what He Himself decreed.

why not ?

We're not talking about Pharaoh; we're talking about Rom2.
We're talking about Romans2. Why would God get mad, at what He Himself decreed?

so you give me no answer and you expect me to answer , ......... you cannot even manage bite sized revelation and you expect me to cut you a joint of meat , I have no desire to mop up your vomit .

In Romans2, God's patience is MEANT to lead to repentance. Is repentance something God gifts, perhaps the consequence of His sovereign election and monergistic regeneration, or is repentance a willful choice?

false dichotomy !!!

Simply answer the question, my friend. God's patience is MEANT to lead to repentance; can that fit "repentance is GOD'S decision", or can it only fit "repentance is both commanded and resistible"?

[/quote]

false dicotomy!!!


I submit using simplistic logic, which guides your every step will not avail you of any logical answers.


I have no problems with Romans 2 , I often use it , it being a fav verse of mine to attack Hypers!!



while it is true that God does not grant everyone salvation through Divine intervention , through regeneration , granting them the gift of faith and the gift of repentance etc , yet ........ the Lord's character is , Loving , kind , patient , slow to anger , quick to forgive , and truly delighting in the life of the repentant sinner , not throwing a party at the opportunity to damn sinners........

God's love for the world is evidenced by the rain and sun being given to both the righteous and the wicked ....... and all acts of common grace (common to elect and reprobates) are said to lead them to repentance ( being lead doesn't mean a person always arrives at the said destination )..... yet God has chosen not to intervene and rescue any from storing up their deserved wrath save the Elect!

.... while God doesn't intervene to the depth and degree He does for the Elect , yet , God has given the reprobate so many opportunities , take the Jews , blessed beyond all others , and only a remnant shall be saved , the rest are hardened as it was predicted , surely where more blessings have been given and abused , there will be greater judgment ........ hence blinding , hardening and rejection.

Yet the Lord's arms are still outstretched and the opportunity for the nation of the Jews to return has always been open , IF they do not persist in unbelief.

When it is said God is unwilling for anyone in the human race to perish ........ it is false if the meaning is God's decretive will .... yet if it means God's complacent will : His will of approval , His will of delight , and His will of approbation , then yes , God doesn't will any to perish....... and that is why we can preach that the Good News is Good News to everyone ........ it can only ever be Good News , that which makes the news bad/smell , isn't the News , but the rejection of it!

The only problem I see is how some believe men can be saved without Christ and without the Gospel , as far as I know , there is just no way of getting around the fact that all men have not heard the Gospel ...... but those that have are judged more harshly for rejecting the Gospel and God's Son ........ and as Jesus was rejected upon many occasions , it seems perfectly just that God would visit this generation with blindness.


XXI. The truth is, (unto which we must esteem ourselves obliged to adhere, both by our assent and defence,) that God doth really and complacentially will (and therefore doth with most unexceptionable sincerity declare himself to will) that to be done and enjoyed by many men, which he doth not, universally, will to make them do, or irresistibly procure that they shall enjoy. Which is no harder assertion, than that the impure will of degenerate, sinful man is opposite to the holy will of God; and the malignity of man's will to the benignity of his. No harder than that there is sin and misery in the world, which how can we conceive otherwise, than as a repugnancy to the good and acceptable will of God? Methinks it should not be difficult to us to acknowledge, that God doth truly, and with complacency, will whatsoever is the holy, righteous matter of his own laws.

John Howe (1630-1705):

 

[frumanchu]

God accomplishes His will through the various means of His choice. He rightly rebukes those who through their steadfast unrepentance and unwillingness continue in sin to store up wrath for themselves, but at the same time by His mercy according to His purpose He overcomes the unwillingness and stubborness of some through the grace of regeneration, such that these stinging rebukes coupled with the kindness of God bring about repentance and faith.

What men seek falls within the scope of God's sovereignty. It is His divine prerogative to pour out His grace upon some and mercifully withhold from them the wrath due for their sin by breathing new life into them and drawing them to Himself.

There is no conflict between God's sovereign election and man's responsibility.

 

[Ben johnson]

while it is true that God does not grant everyone salvation through Divine intervention , through regeneration , granting them the gift of faith and the gift of repentance etc , yet ........ the Lord's character is , Loving , kind , patient , slow to anger , quick to forgive , and truly delighting in the life of the repentant sinner , not throwing a party at the opportunity to damn sinners........

Look at two concepts --- one yours, one Scripture's:

1. God's patience is meant to lead you to repentance; but your stubbornness and unrepentant heart is making God MAD.

2. God grants repentance to those few whom He sovereignly CHOOSES.

How do you not see conflict between these two? Please help me understand what you perceive God's thoughts to be, as He thinks these two things?

God's love for the world is evidenced by the rain and sun being given to both the righteous and the wicked ....... and all acts of common grace (common to elect and reprobates) are said to lead them to repentance ( being lead doesn't mean a person always arrives at the said destination )..... yet God has chosen not to intervene and rescue any from storing up their deserved wrath save the Elect!

That's not what he said; he's rebuking the listeners for stubborn UNREPENTANCE. Why would he waste words on a rebuke, if repentance was sovereignly-granted?

Please tell me how that makes sense?

 

[cygnusx1]

Look at two concepts --- one yours, one Scripture's:

1. God's patience is meant to lead you to repentance; but your stubbornness and unrepentant heart is making God MAD.

2. God grants repentance to those few whom He sovereignly CHOOSES.

How do you not see conflict between these two? Please help me understand what you perceive God's thoughts to be, as He thinks these two things?
That's not what he said; he's rebuking the listeners for stubborn UNREPENTANCE. Why would he waste words on a rebuke, if repentance was sovereignly-granted?

Please tell me how that makes sense?

does the word 'ought' mean 'can' ben ?


and when are you going to answer my questions above , is it because you cannot?

 

[Ben johnson]

God commands us to be perfect ben , so again you deny God's word!

Matt5:48 --- please cite the verse.

We are to be "perfect", and we CAN be so by Christ IN us.

He is our perfection THROUGH us.

why not ?

It doesn't make sense. Writing all these words about "God will judge you for NOT repenting", but somehow we interpret that to mean "God decides whether we will repent or not"? How does that make sense?

does the word 'ought' mean 'can' ben ?


and when are you going to answer my questions above , is it because you cannot?

He doesn't say "ought"; he says "God's patience is MEANT to lead you to repentance; but your stubborn and unrepentant heart is making God MAD".

Please tell me why he condemns "stubborn unrepentance", if "stubborn unrepentance" is GOD'S choice FOR them?

 

[cygnusx1]

Matt5:48 --- please cite the verse.

We are to be "perfect", and we CAN be so by Christ IN us.

He is our perfection THROUGH us.
It doesn't make sense. Writing all these words about "God will judge you for NOT repenting", but somehow we interpret that to mean "God decides whether we will repent or not"? How does that make sense?
He doesn't say "ought"; he says "God's patience is MEANT to lead you to repentance; but your stubborn and unrepentant heart is making God MAD".

Please tell me why he condemns "stubborn unrepentance", if "stubborn unrepentance" is GOD'S choice FOR them?

Pelagius would be so proud of you !!!

 

[Ben johnson]

What caused you to say that, my friend?