False Translation of the word "homosexual" - 1 Cor 6:9

[MercyBurst]

Get to know the facts about homosexuality:

Who wants the bad news????

Dear Davedjy,

get to know the facts about Christianity

Let's hear it for the good news!!!!! hoot hoot hoot

 

[RMDY]

5. Temple Prostitution in Canaan (Leviticus 18:22)
Temple prostitution played also a vital role in the Canaanite religion of worshipping Molech in the OT. In the Canaanite religion, the fertility of the land depended upon Molech having sex with the love goddess Astoroth. The Canaanites, imitated this through prostitution in their worship rituals. The prostitute would play the part of Astoroth, while the customer/worshipper played the part of Molech.

However, the prostitutes playing Astoroth's role were not females, but instead were males... they would dress up as women, wearing elaborate Goddess vestments and Goddess masks on their faces. The customers/ worshippers were also males- Those males would lie with a male as if a female.

It seems almost too simple. For those who wish for further proof that Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13 forbid lying with one of Molech's temple prostitutes I have put together the following arguments:

A. CONEXT: Leviticus 18:2-5 says that practices following, including obviously the "homosexual" acts in 18:22, were part of "the doings... of Canaan". Also see 19:26-29.

So the "homosexual" acts in Leviticus 18:22. 20:13 were part of Canaanite rituals. Funny thing is, the only form of homosexuality used by the Canaanites in their rituals was that of transvestitic temple prostitution.

The end of chapter 20 says that those practices were labeled as "abomination" because they were the idolatrous practices of the Canaanites.

B. THE DEATH PENALTY AND DEUTERONOMY: If you make a list of crimes in Leviticus in which the punishment is death, you will notice that all the death penalty crimes are repeated once again in the Old Testament, especially in Deuteronomy.

But homosexuality is not repeated there (nor anywhere else in the Old Testament), even though ALL of the other death penalty crimes are. However, Deuteronomy does mention male temple prostitution, and calls it toevah.

Here is the list:

Leviticus 20:3-5: Child sacrifice. This is repeated in 2Kings 16:3 and Deuteronomy 12:31.

Leviticus 20:6: Mediums and wizards. This is included in Deuteronomy's 'no other gods', 5:7 et al.

Leviticus 20:9: Cursing one's parents. This is repeated in Deuteronomy 27:16.

Leviticus 20:10: Adultery. Repeated in Deuteronomy 5:18, 22:22.

Leviticus 20:11: Incest with father's wife. Repeated in Deuteronomy 20:20.

Leviticus 20:12 Incest with child's spouse. Repeated in Deuteronomy 20:23.

Leviticus 20:13: Allegedly homosexuality in general. Not repeated anywhere else in the Old Testament.

Leviticus 20:14: Incest: both daughter and mother. Repeated in Deuteronomy 20:23.

Leviticus 20:15: Man committing bestiality. Repeated in Deuteronomy 20:21.

Leviticus 20:16: woman commiting bestiality. Repeated in Deuteronomy 20:21

"Seven out of nine are repeated precisely in Deuteronomy - down to the details of which degree of consanguinity is involved in acts of incest. 20:12 (incest with a daughter-in-law) is not repeated precisely, but the same degree of consanguinity is forbidden in Deut. 20:23. Necromancy is not specifically forbidden again in Deuteronomy, but it is attested in a number of places outside of Leviticus 18/20, notably in I Samuel 14:32-35, which refers to the death penalty associated with the practice." -- Royce Beuhler

http://home.wanadoo.nl/inspiritus/The Mystery.htm

Dave, I believe this is sin and you don't believe it isn't. I will leave it to the Lord to decide whether you are right or wrong. Whether I think your a sinner or not doesn't change that I love you.

My twin brother is a big sinner and I still love him from the top of my heart. I love him so much! He sins against me and my girlfriend and I always forgive him.

Did you ever read the story of Joseph and how his brothers sold him into slavery? When he became powerful and his brothers came to him, he revealed who he was and cried because of how much he loved them all despite how they sinned against him, and he forgave them.

Dave, I pray you continue to seek the Lord and I pray you will seek his Holy Spirit. I love you and will keep no record of what you do or do not do.

 

[davedjy]

I never said that last part, Der Alter, you addded that in, where is the post that says it?
I said "most" members.



4. The meaning of "arsenokoites"
"In short: the allegation that the New Testament condemns homosexuality is not just poor but lazy and inexcusable scholarship. An attempt by some scholars to interpret I Cor 6:9 by taking malakos to mean the passive partner and arsenokoites the active partner is based on circular reasoning. The meaning of arsenokoites is problematic. There is no evidence that malakos was ever considered as a technical term for a passive partner. (There are other terms for passive and active partner in Greek. They never appear in the NT). Malakos' general meaning of effeminate is independent of sexual position or object. To define malakos arsenokoites is to define something already clear by something that is obscure." --- Deirdre Good, General Theological Seminary.

This is a mess, as is illustrated by the variety of translations of the word. So how do we find out what Paul meant? There are two ways to figure out what a word means. One is the etymological approach, which is a false method. The meaning of a word is not determined by its derivation, but by its usage. The meanings of words can change dramatically over short periods of time (even periods as short as 50 years!). Some contend that Paul coined the word from the Septuagint. I will discuss that later.
So the best thing to do would be to examine the uses of the word. It is found 73 times outside of Paul's letter.
In almost every one of these occurrences the word appears in a vice list so it is impossible to tell what they mean. The few times it does not appear in a vice list give us a better insight.
In the Apology of Arisites 13, Fragmenta 12,9-13.5.4 "arsenokoitai" refers to the sins of the Greek Gods. In the context it appears to be referring to the time Zeus abducted and raped a boy named Ganymede.
In Apology of Aristides, written 100 years after 1Corinthians, the word appears to be used for molestation of boys by men. Interestingly enough, Luther translated the word as "Knabenschaender" which meant "child abusers".

Another occurrence is in an ancient legend where the Snake in the Garden of Eden becomes a satanic being named Naas. Naas uses several tactics (including sexually pleasuring both Adam and Eve) to gain power over and destroy Adam and Eve. Naas is said to have "had Adam like a boy". Naas' sins were called arsenokoitai. This suggests arsenoskoitai refers to a male using superior power or position to take sexual advantage of another.

There is simply no justification for translating arsenoskoitai as "homosexuals". Jeramy Townsley sums it up well by saying:
"... neither arsenokoitai nor malakoi are justifiably translated as "any homosexual behavior" (or more specifically, the active and passive partners in anal homosexual intercourse, as is the common interpration by contemporary Christian anti-gay writers) in any other Greek literature, which makes one question why they are translated that way here."

When early, Greek-speaking homophobic Christians (John Chrysostom and Clemet of Alexandria) condemned homosexuality, they did not use arsenokoitai, even when discussing Cor 6:9 and Tim. 1:10. Arguments from silence are generally weak, but had the word meant homosexuals, Chrysostom and Clemet would of most likely condemned homosexuals when they commented on Cor. 6:9 or Tim. 1:10. But they did not. This combined with the above discussion of the occurrences of the word, I feel, provide some serious problems for traditionalists.

http://home.wanadoo.nl/inspiritus/The%20Mystery.htm

 

[RMDY]

1 CORINTHIANS 6:9-10
it says what it says and means what it means and its straight out of the Bible. Not sugar coated and not changed. Its a sin to change the Bible and its a sin to analyze it. So read it learn something.

Dave has a wall around himself and only pro-gay statements will get through to him.

 

[brightmorningstar]

Dear Davedjy,
We can immediately spot the flaw in your argument (and Townsley's) as eisegesis when you pronounce

arsenokoites has nothing to do with homosexual behaviour.

Indeed

or more specifically, the active and passive partners in anal homosexual intercourse "

. is of course not heterosexual behaviour but homosexual behaviour.
Furthermore some uses of the phrase do attritbute it to forms of homosexual practice such as pederasty. he thing is we dont primarily go to secular contemporary uses of words to understand their meaning as the Bible describes what they are. If we were to identify agapeo, phileo and eros primarily from the secular we wouldnt even have eros in the NT and agapeo would not be quite the same as it wouldnt reflect God's love as the NT does. Simillalry the Jesus NT teaching gives faithful man/woman marriage or celibacy, Matthew 19, 1 Corinthians 7, and the breaking of marriage with fornication and adultery, 'porneia' and 'moicheia' if one hasn't got a holistic approach one is looking at the Bible in legalistic terms. 1 Corinthians 6 already lists sex outside marriage, 'porneia' and 'moicheia' before it comes on to idolotry and malakoi and arsenokoites.
Romans 1 describes how God gave people over to idolotry and how God gave people over to same-sex sex which it describes as men's acts with men instead of with women as error. Romans 1 also says God gave them over to all the other sins it lists. Paul lists these sins.
Essentially Paul did not receive His gospel from man but from Jesus, like the other NT writers it is inspired by God through the Holy Spirit, to rely on usage of words outside God's inspiration merely misses God's revelation.

 

[Der Alte]

[SIZE=-1]I never said that last part, Der Alter, you addded that in, where is the post that says it?
I said "most" members.[/SIZE]

You are correct, my apologies, I was quoting from memory.

[SIZE=-1](There are other terms for passive and active partner in Greek. They never appear in the NT).[/SIZE]

If this is true all you have to do is tell us what those words are. Then I will quote the Stanford dictionary and prove you wrong.

[SIZE=-1]Interestingly enough, Luther translated the word as "Knabenschaender" which meant "child abusers".[/SIZE]

False! "knaben" is the specific German word for "boy." "Kind/er" is the German word for child/ren.

[SIZE=-1]Jeramy Townsley sums it up well by saying:"...[/SIZE]

Who is Townsley and why should anyone care what he sums up?

[SIZE=-1]When early, Greek-speaking homophobic Christians (John Chrysostom and Clemet of Alexandria) condemned homosexuality, they did not use arsenokoitai, even when discussing Cor 6:9 and Tim. 1:10.[/SIZE]

Both were pagan Greeks before becoming Christians. Why would they be homophobic, since homosexuality was supposedly a commonly accepted practice throughout the Greek world?

Why is this statement totally false? Someone needs to explain how two early Christian scholars discussed Cor 6:9 and Tim. 1:10 without using arsenokoitai when that specific word occurs in both verses?

 

[judahsgem]

The other New Testament references, 1 Corinthians 6:9 and 1 Timothy 1:10, involve just two Greek words, malakoi and arsenokoitai. There are many good dissertations on the translations of these words, which are available in bookstores and libraries. For the purpose of this pamphlet, suffice it to say that over the centuries, malakoi has been translated and interpreted in every possible way, from the general term "sexual perverts" to those who touch! In Matthew 11:8, malakoi is translated "soft" in reference to clothing, and in the context of other literature, it has even been used in reference to moral weakness. Only recently has the term been translated "homosexual," which is a serious violation of Biblical exegesis. Michael England, in his book, The Bible and Homosexuality, makes note of the fact that in 1 Corinthians 6:9, both malakoi and arsenokoitai are listed separately, and yet, some translators come up with "the entirely unjustified translations which choose to ignore the fact of the two separate words." (P.44) Thus, what the Greek Interlinear translates "voluptuous persons" and the vague term, "sodomite," some translations have rendered the single word, "homosexual." Again, it is extremely important to remember that every seeming reference to homosexuality in the Bible is based solely on interpolation and conjecture, and under no circumstance does the Bible make reference to, or condemn gay men and women who have a sincere desire to live in a committed, loving relationship, professing Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior.


http://www.opendoorcenter.com/myths_&_facts.htm

Just wanted to throw a verse in, that you failed to mention in your OP, that neither mentions the words 'homosexual or sodomite' in them. It very clearly describes it, rather placing one of those words as a name for it, so there is no confusion.
NIV - Leviticus 18:22 " 'Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable.
Amplified - Leviticus 18:22 "You shall not lie with a man as with a woman; it is an abomination.
KJV - 22Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.
NKJV - 22 You shall not lie with a male as with a woman. It is an abomination.
NASV - 22'You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination.

I think that's pretty straight forward. I'm sure someone else has probably posted it by now, but thought I would, just incase they hadn't.

 

[judahsgem]

There are lots of gay men and lesbian women and plenty of holy Christian Churches that freely accept us for who we are!

As I mentioned in my last post; i'm new to this thread (at least I think I mentioned it ). I am working my way up to the most recent posts. When I saw this, I felt compelled to comment.
I would like to clear something up, that some homosexuals may have wrong..well, about some of us believers that is.
Not all believers see it as a 'we don't accept you for who you are' issue.
We simply see it as a what's right and what's wrong, in God's word issue and nothing more.
Just as any other sin, I have no right to judge you for that, personally, but that does not mean I must agree that it's correct and not a sin, like any other sin.
It also doesn't mean that, because you have what I believe is a particular sin, that I cannot befriend you still. As I have my own sins, and in God's eyes no sin is above another. They are all just sin and we will ALL have to answer for whichever ones we commit, either through repentance (asking forgiveness and turning from it) or on judgement day.

 

[judahsgem]

There is not one condemnation of homosexuality as one’s innate sexual constitution in the Scriptures. In fact, any reputable Bible scholar will tell you that when the original manuscripts were written in the languages of Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek, in none of these languages did the word "homosexual," or any viable translation of the word, exist.

You may be right about the word 'homosexual' not being in their language at that time, but that does not mean they did not know of the 'act' itself and that God forbade it, when He gave them their instruction (aka: torah/law). In my previous post, I showed you where the act itself was described, rather than a single word to describe the act. This same 'instruction' (torah/law) is what Jesus lived by and preached, read in the temple, was raised with,etc. This same instruction was what Paul preached and was used for a guideline for living, even after salvation. Torah is a guide for how to live a proper life, in God's eyes, which Jesus examplified for us, perfectly. It's not a way to salvation though, but it is how we should live as believers in God.
It sets a standard of living, for every area of our lives, which is why Jesus lived by it as well. It teaches how to treat your fellow human beings, how to treat animals, how to bathe properly, what is a good food for your body vs. one that can potentially bring illness (proven by science today), it teaches how to treat employers and employees, and it teaches that man should not lay with another man, etc..
It will not condemn you to hell, if you are saved, but it is a sin nonetheless, just like lust or murder,stealing, murder,etc.
God only knows how long you may live in this particular sin and that is not mine to address. But just like any other sin he laid out in how we are to live, He expects us to confess it & turn from it or answer for it in Heaven.
I wish you the very best in your search for the truth in all this and that God impresses that truth upon you.
Just know I am not personally judging you, just as I'd hope you wouldn't judge me for my sins.

 

[judahsgem]

Yeah, I hear that northerners dont even read the Bible.

Hey there....we read our bibles!! Don't stick everyone in the pot, just because you may have heard some nasty rumors.

 

[brightmorningstar]

Dear Judahsgem,
If you are new to these dicsussions I still seem to be waiting for a reply from Davedjy to my question about what the difference is between gays and homosexuals. Obviously there are plenty of those who have same-sex attraction who believe the Bible that God's purposes are not same-sex sexual relationships. Davedjy keeps refering to gay and lesbians which doesnt seem to represent all homosexuals' views

 

[davedjy]

Dear Davedjy,
We can immediately spot the flaw in your argument (and Townsley's) as eisegesis when you pronounce Indeed
[/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT]. is of course not heterosexual behaviour but homosexual behaviour.
Furthermore some uses of the phrase do attritbute it to forms of homosexual practice such as pederasty. he thing is we dont primarily go to secular contemporary uses of words to understand their meaning as the Bible describes what they are. If we were to identify agapeo, phileo and eros primarily from the secular we wouldnt even have eros in the NT and agapeo would not be quite the same as it wouldnt reflect God's love as the NT does. Simillalry the Jesus NT teaching gives faithful man/woman marriage or celibacy, Matthew 19, 1 Corinthians 7, and the breaking of marriage with fornication and adultery, 'porneia' and 'moicheia' if one hasn't got a holistic approach one is looking at the Bible in legalistic terms. 1 Corinthians 6 already lists sex outside marriage, 'porneia' and 'moicheia' before it comes on to idolotry and malakoi and arsenokoites.
Romans 1 describes how God gave people over to idolotry and how God gave people over to same-sex sex which it describes as men's acts with men instead of with women as error. Romans 1 also says God gave them over to all the other sins it lists. Paul lists these sins.
Essentially Paul did not receive His gospel from man but from Jesus, like the other NT writers it is inspired by God through the Holy Spirit, to rely on usage of words outside God's inspiration merely misses God's revelation.

Romans 1 is about temple idolatry and prostitution:

Read this!

MYTH #4: Not just the Old Testament, but the New Testament also condemns homosexuality.

FACT: It is interesting, to say the least, that despite homosexuality being looked on as the "vilest of sins," as it is so often referred to, Jesus never mentioned it! Furthermore, as was already mentioned, the words "homosexual" or "homosexuality" did not exist in the original Greek and Aramaic languages of the New Testament. There are only three passages of Scripture in the N.T. which have been cited in reference to homosexuality. The first is Romans, Chapter 1. In this passage, the Apostle Paul gives a very specific list of characteristics describing those in question: He describes them as those who once knew God, but who chose not to honor God as God. Instead, they worshiped material images of human beings, birds, animals, and reptiles as objects of worship rather than the One True Living God. We are told that they were filled with EVERY kind of wickedness, evil, covetousness, and malice. They were full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, craftiness, gossip, slander, insolence, haughtiness, and boastfulness. They were inventors of evil, rebellious toward parents, foolish, faithless, heartless, and ruthless. (NRSV) As a result of their total depravity, God turned them over to complete spiritual ruin, so that they left no stone of sexual debauchery unturned, engaging in mass orgies and idolatrous sexual cult worship, which included both homosexual and heterosexual debauchery.

These murderous, malicious people who worshiped idols and hated God after once knowing Him, have NOTHING to do with people who have a sincere desire to love and worship the Lord Jesus Christ and who happen to be homosexual. Today, there are multitudes of homosexual people who are tirelessly yearning to be a part of the Church so that they can WORSHIP the One True Living God and profess Jesus as their Savior. Anyone who can possibly equate the monstrous, reprobate people of Romans 1 to modern-day gay and lesbian people who reach out to humanity, love and respect their parents, and who have been expelled from the church they love, just for being homosexual, is not using common sense! Like those religious leaders who scorned Jesus, they have chosen to believe lies founded on their traditions.

http://www.opendoorcenter.com/myths_&_facts.htm

 

[brightmorningstar]

Dear Davedjy,
Sorry but that to me simply denies what Romans 1 actually says.

 

[RMDY]

Temple prostitution or not, Romans still explains Men and Women defiled themselves by exchanging natural relations for unnatural ones.

 

[davedjy]

Dear Davedjy,
Sorry but that to me simply denies what Romans 1 actually says.

Meaningless commentary. Use actual scholarly findings that show the truth.

This does not prove your side, and it IS the truth. Gay and lesbian people are NATURALLY inclined to the same sex, and this is not a chapter to be used on monogamous, same sex relationships.

As if God would be so arbitrary to say "you can't be with the same sex".

 

[DMagoh]

It is interesting, to say the least, that despite homosexuality being looked on as the "vilest of sins," as it is so often referred to, Jesus never mentioned it!

Jesus never mentioned incest, polygamy, pedophilia, necrophilia....

If that's your test, that means a LOT of things are fair game!

 

[DMagoh]

As if God would be so arbitrary to say "you can't be with the same sex".

...or your sister.

 

[MrPirate]

Dear Davedjy,
Sorry but that to me simply denies what Romans 1 actually says.

Actually the facts contradicts what you WANT it to say

 

[Der Alte]

[SIZE=-1]Romans 1 is about temple idolatry and prostitution:

Read this![/SIZE] . . .

Romans 1 has NOTHING to do with "temple idolatry and prostitution" If this were true then some of the early church fathers who wrote about the Bible's condemnation of homosexuality would have mentioned it. NONE of the church fathers who addressed this ever mentioned "temple idolatry and prostitution"

The people posting pro-homosexual arguments here have problems seeing REAL evidence so I have made the text a little larger to assist them.

[size=+1]The early church interpreted αρσενοκοιτης/arsenokoités [1 Cor 6:9] variously as,

• “sodomy,”
• “filth of sodomy,”
• ”lawless lust,”
• “lust,”
• “impurity,”
• “works of the flesh,”
• “carnal,”
• “lawless intercourse,”
• “shameless,”
• “burning with insane love for boys,”
• “licentiousness,”
• “co-habitors with males,”
• “lusters after mankind
• “monstrosities,” etc.​

Quoted from;

• Ignatius, 30-107 AD;
• Polycarp 65 - 155 AD;
• Irenaeus, 120-202 AD;
• Theophilus, 115 - 181 AD;
• Clement of Alexandria, 153 - 217 AD;
• Tertullian, 145-220 AD;
• Cyprian, 200-258 AD; and
• Origen, 185-254 AD.​

Note the dates, of these writings, extend from ca. 50 AD through 258 AD, more than 250 years. The early church fathers interpreted the scriptures as condemning ALL homosexuals acts; by ALL persons, male and female; in ALL places, under ALL circumstance, at ALL times, NO exceptions.

The ECF did NOT even mention, and did NOT limit the condemnation of homosexual acts to, “homosexual rape,” “temple prostitution,” pagan temples and/or religious activities!

Epistle Of Ignatius [Disciple of John] To The Ephesians [A.D. 30-107.]

But as to the practice of magic, or the impure love of boys, or murder, it is superfluous to write to you, since such vices are forbidden to be committed even by the Gentiles. I do not issue commands on these points as if I were an apostle; but, as your fellow-servant, I put you in mind of them.

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf01.v.html

Epistle of Polycarp [Disciple of John] to the Philippians Chapter V.-The Duties of Deacons, Youths, and Virgins. [65 - 155 AD]

In like manner, let the young men also be blameless in all things, being especially careful to preserve purity, and keeping themselves in, as with a bridle, from every kind of evil. For it is well that they should be cut off from the lusts that are in the world, since "every lust warreth against the spirit; " and "neither fornicators, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, shall inherit the kingdom of God, [1 Cor 6:9] " nor those who do things inconsistent and unbecoming.

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf01.iv.ii.html

Irenaeus [Disciple of Polycarp]Against Heresies Book V [120-202 AD]

So also he who has continued in the aforesaid works of the flesh, being truly reckoned as carnal, because he did not receive the Spirit of God, shall not have power to inherit the kingdom of heaven. As, again, the same apostle [Paul] testifies, saying to the Corinthians, "Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not err," he says: "neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor revilers, nor rapacious persons, shall inherit the kingdom of God. And these ye indeed have been; but ye have been washed, but ye have been sanctified, but ye have been justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, and in the Spirit of our God." [1 Cor 6:9].

Since, therefore, in that passage [1 Cor 6:9] he [Paul] recounts those works of the flesh which are without the Spirit, which bring death [upon their doers],

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf01.ix.html


Theophilus to Autolycus Book III [115 - 181 AD]
Chapter VI.-Other Opinions of the Philosophers.

And these things the other laws of the Romans and Greeks also prohibit. Why, then, do Epicurus and the Stoics teach incest and sodomy, with which doctrines they have filled libraries, so that from boyhood this lawless intercourse is learned?

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf02.iv.ii.iii.html

Clement of Alexandria The Instructor. [Paedagogus.] Book III [153 - 217 AD]

The fate of the Sodomites was judgment to those who had done wrong, instruction to those who hear. The Sodomites having, through much luxury, fallen into uncleanness, practicing adultery shamelessly, and burning with insane love for boys; the All-seeing Word, whose notice those who commit impieties cannot escape, cast His eye on them. . . .Accordingly, the just punishment of the Sodomites became to men an image of the salvation which is well calculated for men.

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf02.vi.iii.iii.html

Clement of Alexandria Exhortation To The Heathen

And what are the laws? “Thou shalt not kill; thou shalt not commit adultery; thou shalt not seduce boys; thou shalt not steal; thou shalt not bear false witness; thou shalt love the Lord thy God.” And the complements of these are those laws of reason and words of sanctity which are inscribed on men’s hearts: “Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself; to him who strikes thee on the cheek, present also the other;” “thou shalt not lust, for by lust alone thou hast committed adultery.”

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf02.vi.ii.html

Clement of Alexandria The Instructor [Paedagogus] Book 1

But life has reached this pitch of licentiousness through the wantonness of wickedness, and lasciviousness is diffused over the cities, having become law. Beside them women stand in the stews, offering their own flesh for hire for lewd pleasure, and boys, taught to deny their sex, act the part of women. Luxury has deranged all things; it has disgraced man. A luxurious niceness seeks everything, attempts everything, forces everything, coerces nature. Men play the part of women, and women that of men, contrary to nature; women are at once wives and husbands: no passage is closed against libidinousness; [i.e. every possible body orifice is used for “lechery”/“libidinousness.”] and their promiscuous lechery is a public institution, and luxury is domesticated.

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf02.vi.iii.i.html

Clement of Alexandria The Instructor - Pedagogos Book 3
Chapter 3
Against Men Who Embellish Themselves

Such was predicted of old, and the result is notorious: the whole earth has now become full of fornication and wickedness. I admire the ancient legislators of the Romans: these detested effeminacy of conduct; and the giving of the body to feminine purposes, contrary to the law of nature, they judged worthy of the extremest penalty, according to the righteousness of the law.

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf02.vi.iii.iii.html

Tertullian On Modesty [145-220 AD]
Chapter XVI.-General Consistency of the Apostle.

Just as, again, among all other crimes-nay, even before all others-when affirming that "adulterers, and fornicators, and effeminates, and co-habitors with males, will not attain the kingdom of God, [1 Cor 6:9]" he premised, "Do not err" -to wit, if you think they will attain it. But to them from whom "the kingdom" is taken away, of course the life which exists in the kingdom is not permitted either. Moreover, by superadding, "But such indeed ye have been; but ye have received ablution, but ye have been sanctified, in the Name of the Lord Jesus Christ, and in the Spirit of our God;" [1 Cor 6:9]

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf04.iii.viii.html

Tertullian The Chaplet, or De Corona. Chapter VI.

Demanding then a law of God, you have that common one [law] prevailing all over the world, engraven on the natural tables to which the apostle too is wont to appeal, as when in respect. of the woman's veil he says, "Does not even Nature teach you? " -as when to the Romans, affirming that the heathen do by nature those things which the law requires, he suggests both natural law and a law-revealing nature. Yes, and also in the first chapter of the epistle [Rom 1.] he authenticates nature, when he asserts that males and females changed among themselves the natural use of the creature into that which is unnatural, by way of penal retribution for their error. [Rom 1:27]

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf03.iv.vi.html

Tertullian VII. On Modesty.[sup]1[/sup] Chapter IV.-Adultery and Fornication Synonymous.

Accordingly, among us, secret connections as well-connections, that is, not first professed in presence of the Church-run risk of being judged akin to adultery and fornication; nor must we let them, if thereafter woven together by the covering of marriage, elude the charge. But all the other frenzies of passions-impious both toward the bodies and toward the sexes-beyond the laws of nature, we banish not only from the threshold, but from all shelter of the Church, because they are not sins, but monstrosities.

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf04.iii.viii.html

Cyprian Treatise XII Three Books of Testimonies Against the Jews [200-258 AD]

65. That all sins are put away in baptism.

In the first Epistle of Paul to the Corinthians: "Neither fornicators, nor those who serve idols, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor the lusters after mankind, nor thieves, nor cheaters, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor robbers, shall obtain the kingdom of God. And these things indeed ye were: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, and in the Spirit of our God." [1 Cor 6:9].

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf05.iv.v.xii.html

Origen Against Celsus Book 8 [185-254 AD] [student of Clement of Alexandria]

and that they often exhibit in their character a high degree of gravity, of purity, and
integrity; while those who call themselves wise have despised these virtues, and have wallowed in the filth of sodomy, in lawless lust, “men with men working that which is unseemly.” [Rom 1:27]

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf04.vi.ix.viii.html[/size]​

​

And the doctrines of the early church were also based on the teachings of the O.T.

From the time Moses delivered the law, to the Israelites, ca. 1200 BC, until the present, Jewish scholars interpreted the O.T. scriptures as condemning ALL same gender sex acts; by ALL persons, male and female; at ALL times, in ALL places, and under ALL circumstances, NO exceptions or exclusions. The early church fathers also interpreted the N.T. scriptures as condemning ALL homosexual acts, with NO exceptions.

The ancient Jewish scholars and the ECF did NOT even mention, and did NOT limit the condemnation of homosexual acts to, “homosexual rape,”“temple prostitution,”“enslaved boy prostitutes,”“effete, jaded Roman nobles,” pagan temples and/or pagan religious activities!

Recent posts: Evidence from Talmud, and other ancient Jewish writings, Link

 

[brightmorningstar]

Dear MrPirate,

Actually the facts contradicts what you WANT it to say

Actually they dont. Could you be more specific please?