[Open] Support thread for non-punitive households (Please NO DEBATE)

[RoseofLima]

Very nice to meet you, too, Donna! Welcome!!!

 

[Jemma]

Oh- I'll have to take a look! I realized how close to the surface it still all is this week as my nemesis-- er..I mean my mom... is visiting.

*VENT Warning**

Goodness... Rose, your mother sounds like a handful, more than your kids will ever be! Does she visit often? And how long is she staying again?

Whew, It took me a bit to read the entire thread I just want to introduce myself.

You read the ENTIRE thread? I'm impressed. I didn't have the time or health (morning sickness, 'nuff said ) to read the whole thread, so I'm gleaning gems of advice starting from a few pages ago when I said hello too.

 

[DonnaB]

Lol Jemma! I had a quiet afternoon--a rare treat!

MUCH better than yesterday when I had to put myself in time out I don't use time out for DD, but I was getting so frustrated that I figured it was a good thing for me!

 

[Jemma]

Lol Jemma! I had a quiet afternoon--a rare treat!

MUCH better than yesterday when I had to put myself in time out I don't use time out for DD, but I was getting so frustrated that I figured it was a good thing for me!

Putting one's self is in time-out is the best way to avoid saying or doing something that might not set the best example for the kids. If I get like that, I just get Hubby to watch DD and have some time to myself. It only takes a few minutes for me to calm down enough to face her again, but better that than yelling at her.

 

[New Creation]

I think whenever you can work to avert a tantrum, etc.-- that is the absolute BEST thing! Prevention, as they say, is the best medicine!

Usually when I am placing boundaries I also give the why of it--even with my babies and toddlers. I know they can't really conceptualize the why, but it that way it is still filtering into their brain for when they can conceptualize. For example you could say to your lttle one "Good job staying away from the stove while mommy is cooking! It's very hot and if you touch it you can burnt and it will really hurt. You are sure doing a great job being careful!"

I do this for my babies if they are biting while nursing or give me a playful slap "No biting (or hitting) --that hurts mommy and hurts mommy's feelings." For hitting I also then show them how I like to be touched-I take their hand and say "Gentle touch. Gentle touches on mommy. Mommy likes gentle touches- that feels so nice!"

When I am keeping my toddlers away from outlets- again it's "No touch! Hot! Hurt baby! No touch!"

QUESTION FOR ROSE!!!!!! lol

Meaghan BIT me today while nursing and WOW did it shock me now that she's got those two little bottom teeth. She's going on 9 months old. What I did was say "OW!" really loud. Like I said, it shocked me. She stopped immediately and looked at me, surprised. I said "Meaghan, that hurt mummy! We're finished!" and I put her on the living room floor to play with her toys. She had been nursing for a while so I knew she wouldn't still be hungry so...

Anyway, any advice on how to handle it (gulp) next time?

Also, I think you may have answered another question for me but ( by the way I got my books in the mail last week - HOw to talk so your kids will listen and listen so your kids will talk AND Biblical Parenting- GREAT STUFF!!!!) how do you start all this stuff when they are just infants? Just talk to them like they are bigger and know that they will internalize it?
For example, how can I get Meaghan to stop pulling hair? MIne when she is in my arms- other babies' when they are close to her.


I love this thread so much.

 

[JulySheMustFly]

I deal with some anger issues where I end up acting totally opposite of how I believe I should in parenting. So I bought the book She's Gonna Blow!: Real Help for Moms Dealing with Anger by Julie Ann Barnhill. I'm not done reading it yet, but I'm finding it very helpful and thought I would mention it in case anyone else was interested!

Thank you for mentioning that book. I'm going to add it to my list of too read. I have a long fuse but when the fuse is done my explosion is large and shameful. I really need help in this area right now especially as my children are reaching an age that they will remember my beastly mommy explosions. I do ask for their help in reminding me to hold my temper, which works surprisingly well but I don't fully feel it is fair to place that pressure on them. Ugh. . .I'm having a tough week.

 

[RoseofLima]

QUESTION FOR ROSE!!!!!! lol

Meaghan BIT me today while nursing and WOW did it shock me now that she's got those two little bottom teeth. She's going on 9 months old. What I did was say "OW!" really loud. Like I said, it shocked me. She stopped immediately and looked at me, surprised. I said "Meaghan, that hurt mummy! We're finished!" and I put her on the living room floor to play with her toys. She had been nursing for a while so I knew she wouldn't still be hungry so...

Anyway, any advice on how to handle it (gulp) next time?

Also, I think you may have answered another question for me but ( by the way I got my books in the mail last week - HOw to talk so your kids will listen and listen so your kids will talk AND Biblical Parenting- GREAT STUFF!!!!) how do you start all this stuff when they are just infants? Just talk to them like they are bigger and know that they will internalize it?
For example, how can I get Meaghan to stop pulling hair? MIne when she is in my arms- other babies' when they are close to her.


I love this thread so much.

#1-- you did everything right. Usually I get only a couple bites and I do just what you did. I pop my baby off and say :Biting hurts mommy! No biting!. Then set them down on the floor...in a few moments I pick them up and say (Not sternly) "I love you! Biting hurts mommy. Be gentle with mommy. " And then we nurse some more.

#2- yes- I would just talk it through now- so it becomes habitual, second nature. Practice makes perfect

#3-Whenever she pulls hair, I would take her hand and say "Pulling hair hurts. We use gentle touches on other people." And while holding her hand show her how to do gentle touches. As with all things it will take repetition and consistency--but the "gentle touch" thing I have found to be invaluable for all kinds of things at all different ages.

Let us know what you think about the books whe you're done!

 

[RoseofLima]

Thank you for mentioning that book. I'm going to add it to my list of too read. I have a long fuse but when the fuse is done my explosion is large and shameful. I really need help in this area right now especially as my children are reaching an age that they will remember my beastly mommy explosions. I do ask for their help in reminding me to hold my temper, which works surprisingly well but I don't fully feel it is fair to place that pressure on them. Ugh. . .I'm having a tough week.

Lately I've been saying to myself - over and over until I am calm "Shannon you can't teach them not to have tantrums if you are having tantrums. Shannon you can't teach them not to have tantrums if you are having tantrums."

I am sorry you're having a rough week.

 

[JulySheMustFly]

Lately I've been saying to myself - over and over until I am calm "Shannon you can't teach them not to have tantrums if you are having tantrums. Shannon you can't teach them not to have tantrums if you are having tantrums."

I am sorry you're having a rough week.

Thanks. You're so right about the teaching aspect. I can already see how my fits just lead to more fits from them.

 

[RoseofLima]

My spiritual director told e something really cool once. I was talking about how kids are so perfecting, because when they are young the are such radiant mirrors of ourselves. Any vices we have are magnified in them and reflected back to us. How many of us have had that moment where we hear our child speaking just exactly the way we have spoken to them!! My SD told me that in one of the basillicas in Rome that there are statues representing all of the virtues. And the statue depicting Humility is a woman holding a mirror--showing that looking honestly at ourselves yields to great humility. To me- my kids are so totally that mirror...it becomes more dull over time as they have a greater cache of experiences--but when they are young it is such an awesome chance to clearly see our faults and work to correct them. I am so thankful for that opportunity!

 

[annaapple]

Where's the smiley hitting his head against a brick wall?!!!!



Don't know if it's just my tiredness or what, but I think I see the end of the rope... DS no.1 does not seem to be learning ANYTHING about expressing his emotions appropriately. He gets angry and then he hits me and that is SO NOT ALLOWED. I feel like I've been trying to teach him for ages: you can be angry but you can't hit me or anyone else, hitting isn't nice, talk about it and let's find a solution together etc etc etc and that my patience is being rewarded with more hitting, because there are no real nasty consequences for him. Or maybe I'm just doing it all wrong. I guess I'm struggling to show him the line / boundary without some kind of punishment.

Like I said:

 

[annaapple]

Guess I should add that he's almost 4, fairly sensitive and with a vivid imagination. In case that's relevant.

 

[RoseofLima]

Where's the smiley hitting his head against a brick wall?!!!!



Don't know if it's just my tiredness or what, but I think I see the end of the rope... DS no.1 does not seem to be learning ANYTHING about expressing his emotions appropriately. He gets angry and then he hits me and that is SO NOT ALLOWED. I feel like I've been trying to teach him for ages: you can be angry but you can't hit me or anyone else, hitting isn't nice, talk about it and let's find a solution together etc etc etc and that my patience is being rewarded with more hitting, because there are no real nasty consequences for him. Or maybe I'm just doing it all wrong. I guess I'm struggling to show him the line / boundary without some kind of punishment.

Like I said:

Hang in there!! Do you give him tools-- things that are okay ways to express anger?? Drawing, or using words, or doing an angry dance or standing and doing ninja moves....or whatever..... Have you showed him gentle hands??

There is a consequence-- it hurts mommy and hurts mommy's feelings. Try to remember that it isn't like if it just "hurts enough" they'll get it. How many people have you heard of who stay in abusive relationships...the pain/difficulty of the consequence isn't what matters.

I think some of it is a four year old thing. My four year old has been struggliing a bit with this. To me it's a sign of being in a place of wanting more control over their lives. Try increasing the amount of autonomy you give your little one. Give lots and lots of choices, so there is the feeling of control over his environment.

 

[annaapple]

Thanks Rose! It's always good to get some encouragement. And tomorrow's a new day, right (it's bedtime here)? I've been trying to get him to talk as an alternative to hitting, as he does spontaneously verbalize quite well for his age. But maybe I've been making it too hard for him, and actually he just needs to hit a pillow or something! he loves knights, so maybe we can think of something a knight would do if he was angry...

Choices are good - I use that with the teenagers I teach a lot too!

Thanks again. Hope it all ended happily with your mother and you both managed to enjoy your last couple of days together.

 

[RoseofLima]

Thanks!! She is gone Wow she exhausts me.... I love her, but man am I glad she lives more than a stone's throw away. I think it's what keeps our relationship from being horrible. My kids adore her--she is a really great grandma. She just is a liitle (okay- a lot) over the top

 

[jazzbird]

New Creation - I hear you with the biting and hair pulling. Jonas is 9.5 months and just got his bottom teeth a few weeks ago. There have only been a couple occasions where he's bit me while nursing, and I say "OW! That hurts mama." He always looks so shocked. I resume nursing with him, and he doesn't do it again at that time. I think I read in one of Dr. Sears' books that if you have a biter, you should pull the babe in toward your breast (rather than off) and they'll let go because they can't breath. I've never tried it because Jonas doesn't clamp down, he just bites once. He is always pulling my hair when he nurses too - even when it's in a pony tail, he seems to find a way to grab it. I got him a nursing necklace a couple months ago, but still prefers my hair. I guess I haven't been very consistent about taking it away from him. He doesn't pull it so it hurts, but I'm sure it's not a good habit.

So, more experienced, wiser mamas.....I need some advice about some behavior I'm seeing from my friend's 4 (5 in July) year old whom I babysit. She is a very smart little girl - very verbal, creative, great imagination - she seems a lot older than most kids her age. Except for the occasional tantrum when she doesn't get what she wants, she has been pretty easy to take care of, but the last few weeks I'm seeing some things that have surprised me. (Sorry this is long).

I'm concerned about her interactions with Jonas - very aggressive lately. She has a sister who is two months younger than Jonas, and she'll play a bit rough with her sometimes, but she's always loving towards her. With Jonas, on the other hand, she's just been plain mean. Anytime he crawls anywhere near her, she whines "no, get him away from me." He doesn't touch her stuff or do anything to her. When I ask why, she just says she doesn't want him by her.

I don't usually leave the babies alone with the two older kids, but occasionally it happens. Last week, I was helping Jonathan in the bathroom. Jonas was standing at the furniture in the livingroom and I was keeping an eye on him, while at the bathroom door. Grace did not know I was watching, and she went over to Jonas, stood over him in a very domineering posture with her hands on her hips and got right in his face making growling type noises. She wasn't just being silly; she had a mean look in her face. I said her name rather sharply and then I asked her why she was doing that. She said that he was bothering her, and I told her that I saw what happened and that he wasn't even near her. She tried to come up with some other excuses, and I just told her that she's not to be mean to any of the kids in the house. I wasn't sure what else to do.

Yesterday, the baby was waking from her nap upstairs. Jonas was again standing at the furniture because that's his favorite thing to do lately, and Grace was sitting on the couch. I ran upstairs and was gone for less than a minute. When I came back, I found Grace with her foot on Jonas' chest as though she were about to push him down. Again, I was rather sharp, and I asked her why she was doing that, and she said rather lamely, "I want to stand there.""

I don't know what to do, other than to always take Jonas with me. I do wear him a lot while I'm there, but if he's not already in a carrier when I need to carry Ella somewhere, I don't take the time to put him on, and it's very difficult to carry both babies, especially up and down the stairs.

I'm going to talk to her mom about what I'm seeing this week, but I'm hoping to have some ideas for helping this situation. They are not gentle discipline. Pretty mainstream: time outs, the occasional spanking, removing privelages.

How do I handle this?

 

[Leanna]

I'm concerned about her interactions with Jonas - very aggressive lately. She has a sister who is two months younger than Jonas, and she'll play a bit rough with her sometimes, but she's always loving towards her. With Jonas, on the other hand, she's just been plain mean. Anytime he crawls anywhere near her, she whines "no, get him away from me." He doesn't touch her stuff or do anything to her. When I ask why, she just says she doesn't want him by her.

I don't usually leave the babies alone with the two older kids, but occasionally it happens. Last week, I was helping Jonathan in the bathroom. Jonas was standing at the furniture in the livingroom and I was keeping an eye on him, while at the bathroom door. Grace did not know I was watching, and she went over to Jonas, stood over him in a very domineering posture with her hands on her hips and got right in his face making growling type noises. She wasn't just being silly; she had a mean look in her face. I said her name rather sharply and then I asked her why she was doing that. She said that he was bothering her, and I told her that I saw what happened and that he wasn't even near her. She tried to come up with some other excuses, and I just told her that she's not to be mean to any of the kids in the house. I wasn't sure what else to do.

Yesterday, the baby was waking from her nap upstairs. Jonas was again standing at the furniture because that's his favorite thing to do lately, and Grace was sitting on the couch. I ran upstairs and was gone for less than a minute. When I came back, I found Grace with her foot on Jonas' chest as though she were about to push him down. Again, I was rather sharp, and I asked her why she was doing that, and she said rather lamely, "I want to stand there.""

I don't know what to do, other than to always take Jonas with me. I do wear him a lot while I'm there, but if he's not already in a carrier when I need to carry Ella somewhere, I don't take the time to put him on, and it's very difficult to carry both babies, especially up and down the stairs.

I'm going to talk to her mom about what I'm seeing this week, but I'm hoping to have some ideas for helping this situation. They are not gentle discipline. Pretty mainstream: time outs, the occasional spanking, removing privelages.

How do I handle this?

Well, since no one else has chimed in..... I just want to say that it sounds like normal 4-5 year old behavior from what I have heard. That's not to say it should be acceptable but she's not about to go crazy-psycho on you she's just testing the limits again, etc. I would definitely ask at GCM. My thoughts are:

Don't leave Jonas alone where this could happen.... I know you said you try not to.

Just keep telling her its not the right thing to do.

Check Joanne and Crystal's site to see if you can find similar examples.

Sorry I can't help more!

 

[Leanna]

Anyone read either of these books:

Siblings Without Rivalry: How to Help Your Children Live Together So You Can Live Too by Adele Faber and Elaine Mazlish

[FONT=&quot]How to Talk So Kids Will Listen and Listen So Kids Will Talk[/FONT][FONT=&quot] by Adele Faber and Elaine Mazlish[/FONT]

 

[annaapple]

I've ordered the second one on Rose's recommendation. Will be collecting it in London early May, so will let you know after that!

Jazzbird: I'd try to get to the root cause 'cos clearly the behavior (symptoms) are proving hard to tackle. Is it envy? Is she mad 'cos her parents aren't there? Is she being powerful to him because she feels powerless elsewhere? That is typical of bullies - it is often said that they are victims too. I'm guessing the worst case scenario would be that this is stealth anger - anger about something totally unrelated in the past being acted out now. But it might just be a kid being a kid.

Keep working on building a relationship of trust with her so that maybe you can find out what's REALLY bothering her. She is clearly struggling to be able to express it herself, which is why she has those lame excuses. She probably doesn't know the real reason(s) - but she can be helped to find them.

And if that doesn't work, at least you've stayed positive and that can't have negative consequences, so you won't lose with this approach.

 

[New Creation]

Anyone read either of these books:

Siblings Without Rivalry: How to Help Your Children Live Together So You Can Live Too by Adele Faber and Elaine Mazlish

[FONT=&quot]How to Talk So Kids Will Listen and Listen So Kids Will Talk[/FONT][FONT=&quot] by Adele Faber and Elaine Mazlish[/FONT]

I'm reading "How To Talk..." and it is a really amazing book. I'm already trying to put these principles into practise although Meg is only 9 months old.

I will order "Siblings..." once I get pregnant with the next one!

Addressing Jazzbird and the pulling hair while nursing and biting issue.
Meg has only bitten me twice. The first time, I DID pull her into my breast and she stopped immediately- but I want her to know why it's wrong so I did the OW that hurts and put her on the floor the next time. I will continue with that if necessary.
A nursing necklace seems like a good idea- she will pull on anything she can, my bra, my shirt, my hair, but she seems to prefer things that don't give as easily like hair and necklaces. She also pulls her own hair while nursing sometimes and that concerns me because I am a recovering hair-puller. She seems to do it most when she is tired.
She doesn't just pull hair when nursing though, it's when I'm carrying her or while she's sitting on my lap facing me. She goes for hair everywhere.

I have just been implementing Rose's suggestion so far and have told my husband and best friend (the people she sees most) to do the same.
When she pulls I tell her "pulling hurts honey. Mummy likes a gentle soft touch." then I take her hand and stroke my hair with it and say "soft, gentle" over and over. When she seems to get it I say "that's right Meaghan, very good!"
I don't know if I'm kidding myself but I may be seeing a difference. Could just be wishful thinking. I'll give an update when I know I see a difference.

Right now Meaghan is sick with croup, poor baby and poor mummy too. Heck, poor daddy who has to do all the neglected housework after working for 8 hours.
Yesterday was the worst day so far- she doesn't seem as bad today. Pretty gross yesterday though- I got puked on and it was all the snot she swallowed since she doesn't know how to blow her nose yet!
yuck times ten! If you all wouldn't mind saying a prayer for her, I'd really appreciate it! She's such a little trooper!