[Open] Support thread for non-punitive households (Please NO DEBATE)

[annaapple]

Isn't it just so cute when they're nice to each other? That story about David and Maya is adorbale. Have you written it down so you don't forget? My youngest is really good at sharing and the older one is good at telling me what I need to do for his brother: he wants a drink, he wants a cookie, I think he's tired and so on.

How is your hubby doing??

I think ok, he's still there, waiting for the ENT doc to come and check out his ex-tonsils. He had them out last week, but then we got some bleeding blah blah blah. He seemed pretty good when I spoke to him earlier - enjoying the chance to do lots of reading!!! meanwhile, I took the kids shopping and am now posting instead of cleaning

Speaking of which...

 

[Leanna]

We're trying to potty train today which is proving to be a challenge. I tihnk he's had some successes, but he always flushes before I get there.... he even went #2, I hope some of it got in the pot.... I sure know it got all over the seat and his hand and the floor (the floor? no idea) .... it keeps happening when I am doing something for Maya, I interrupted her meal 3 times to go help him and she freaks out (of course) and I think it hurts her flux because the last time she was in pain when I tried to feed her more and let out gas and then after crying hard for a while fell asleep ..... sigh..... I just know he's ready, but I don't have enough of me to go around.... um he just said uhoh

 

[annaapple]

Can you get him to carry his potty around with him? The he can be close to you when he goes, it might make it easier for him.

I was training older son when younger one was 3 months. I'd be bf and older DS would deliberately go on the kitchen floor. If I didn't react, he start walking through it. He sure knew how to get my attention!

 

[Leanna]

Wow that stinks! David is trying really hard, I can tell, but I can't always be there and he needs more help that I can provide.... at least all his accidents have been in the bathroom because he knows when he has to go and runs there! I called my mom to ask if she could come over tomorrow, and she can, so that way I can have someone else feed baby (one good thing about bottle feeding) and help David more.... I hope this is the week! Its starting to feel really weird changing his diapers because hes so BIG and grown. I tried to train him in December and he wasn't ready.... he started really seeming ready in February right before Maya was born-- not a good time!

 

[RoseofLima]

We're trying to potty train today which is proving to be a challenge. I tihnk he's had some successes, but he always flushes before I get there.... he even went #2, I hope some of it got in the pot.... I sure know it got all over the seat and his hand and the floor (the floor? no idea) .... it keeps happening when I am doing something for Maya, I interrupted her meal 3 times to go help him and she freaks out (of course) and I think it hurts her flux because the last time she was in pain when I tried to feed her more and let out gas and then after crying hard for a while fell asleep ..... sigh..... I just know he's ready, but I don't have enough of me to go around.... um he just said uhoh

Oh - you're brave!! I always wait until summer to potty train...

 

[Leanna]

Well Rose I confess that its 74 in here and hes running around in a tee shirt.... doesn't that count?

 

[RoseofLima]

Well Rose I confess that its 74 in here and hes running around in a tee shirt.... doesn't that count?

LOL!! Sure!! I'm a cheapskate so I never set my heat up higher than 65

 

[RooMama]

Alright, I'm just sticking my pinky toe in for now with one little question.
How do you transition from punitive to non-punitive (or at least less-punitive)? I'm really trying and my husband is somewhat supportive and also kind of trying, but we can't seem to stop the fits and screaming and whining from our 4 year old.

 

[Leanna]

Alright, I'm just sticking my pinky toe in for now with one little question.
How do you transition from punitive to non-punitive (or at least less-punitive)? I'm really trying and my husband is somewhat supportive and also kind of trying, but we can't seem to stop the fits and screaming and whining from our 4 year old.

If it were me I'd start by doing a lot of reading.... like start with http://www.aolff.org/ and its sister www.goybparenting.com .... if nothing else it should give you some ideas .... oh and FAQs http://www.gentlechristianmothers.com/mb/index.php?board=231.0 .....

LOL!! Sure!! I'm a cheapskate so I never set my heat up higher than 65

Its not normally this warm, I turned it up a few degrees when Maya was born because I'm all worried about having a cold baby and then I turned it up again so that we could do naked potty training (well naked bottom)..... its worked pretty well too.... I consider today a success.... I am particularly excited about the fact that all the accidents were IN the bathroom and not on the carpet

 

[annaapple]

Alright, I'm just sticking my pinky toe in for now with one little question.
How do you transition from punitive to non-punitive (or at least less-punitive)? I'm really trying and my husband is somewhat supportive and also kind of trying, but we can't seem to stop the fits and screaming and whining from our 4 year old.

I second what Leanna said about lots of reading. The Gentle Christian Mothers website has articles with practical tips for dealing positively with that age group.

The key is that it is good to express emotions, but kids (and some adults ) need to learn how to express them appropriately. This is best done by modelling (ie if you scream when you're angry, your kids will do the same; but the positive opposites apply too!) and by helping them to verbalise. In the book I found really helpful, Ross Campbell's How to Really Parent Your Child, he talks about an 'Anger Ladder' which goes from the most inappropriate way to deal with anger to the best way. No one on the planet every arrives permanently at the top. But we all know what we're aiming for: to deal with anger positively, to stay focused on the source and seek resolution in a logical way.

So to get back from the ideal to the real:

1. In times of peace, think carefully about the types of things that provoke the tantrums, esp. what the underlying causes could be (usually tiredness, hunger, needing extra hugs). Decide what you can do to prevent explosions in the first place.
2. What are the warnign signs that an explosion is brewing? When you see them, act immediately to diffuse the situation - often a big bear hug and a few minutes of focused attention is enough.
3. When the fuse blows anyway (as it will, inevitably) try holding your child facing away from you, but pinning the arms so they can't hurt you. Say: It is ok to be angry, but I can't let you hurt me / throw things / hurt others when you are. Help them to SAY that they are angry, help them to verbalise why, help them to seek a resolution which is acceptable to you both.

Remember that when your focus is to stop the tantrum, you are only dealing with the symptoms and not the underlying cause; you are also missing an important teaching opportunity.

In a non-punitive context natural consequences are important i.e. you dump your toys all over the floor, you clean them up. This is working ok for us, but if you and esp. your husband feel uncomfortable with a totally non-punitive household, you might like campbell's book as he is not completely non-punitive, but he puts punishment in its proper place and context. He says punishment is a way to control behavior, but the most negative one and the most difficult to do properly. So he explains everything you can do to make it the last possible resort.

Anyway, sorry this has become such a long post. Feel free to PM me.

 

[Jemma]

Remember that when your focus is to stop the tantrum, you are only dealing with the symptoms and not the underlying cause; you are also missing an important teaching opportunity.
.

I think this is the key thing for us, that I want to start doing more, ie. using 'problem areas' as learning opportunities. I'm new to this whole non-punitive discipline thing, and finding all the info overwhelming. Your list of tips was helpful, thankyou.

Is it okay with gentle discipline to use distraction as a means of dealing with tantrums or potential tantrums? I can't see a problem with potential tantrums, but would it be better to talk with my 2 yr-old about an actual tantrum after she's calmed down from it? Does she understand reasoning at such a young age?

I know she understands when things are "hot" and is very careful around them (she won't go near the stove if I'm cooking, or even in the kitchen comfortably), but I'm not sure how much else she understands when it comes to why she must or mustn't do something.

 

[RoseofLima]

Alright, I'm just sticking my pinky toe in for now with one little question.
How do you transition from punitive to non-punitive (or at least less-punitive)? I'm really trying and my husband is somewhat supportive and also kind of trying, but we can't seem to stop the fits and screaming and whining from our 4 year old.

LOL! Sounds just like my 4 year old!!

I think as you transition you have to expect there to be a bit of time where things are a little unruly. The kids need time to assimilate it all, and mom and dad need time to feel comfortable in their new approach.

My 4 year old was having mega fits...but after a couple weeks of diligence --she is now coming to my husband and I saying things like "I want to talk about my feelings!" and yesterday she got out some paper and drew on it and declared "This is how I am feeling!!" And she has also become nearly completely compliant.

It is very hard for me to be accepting of their negative emotions, because I was raised in a household where perfection was demanded--even emotional perfection-which meant NO negative feelings. I have to be very diligent in telling my children that it's okay to be angry, etc. --but then also to try to teach them how to appropriately and constructively express those emotions.

Another tool which works extraordinarily well with my 4 year old is playful parenting--coming in to direct her behaviour with a ridiculous dance or song or a tickle war. Part of the 4 year old thing, I think, is a trying on of behaviour...a lot of times her tantrums are only half serious- the other part is like play acting to sort of try out this whole being angry business. I dunno if that makes sense or not??

The other thing which I think is invaluable is an apology to my kids when I blow it. If I lose my temper- I try to always go back and apologize telling them that my behaviour was inappropriate and that I am sorry for being disrespectful. My husband and I have tried to develop the matra for ourselves that we can't expect the kids not to have tantrums if we are having tantrums

 

[RoseofLima]

I think this is the key thing for us, that I want to start doing more, ie. using 'problem areas' as learning opportunities. I'm new to this whole non-punitive discipline thing, and finding all the info overwhelming. Your list of tips was helpful, thankyou.

Is it okay with gentle discipline to use distraction as a means of dealing with tantrums or potential tantrums? I can't see a problem with potential tantrums, but would it be better to talk with my 2 yr-old about an actual tantrum after she's calmed down from it? Does she understand reasoning at such a young age?

I know she understands when things are "hot" and is very careful around them (she won't go near the stove if I'm cooking, or even in the kitchen comfortably), but I'm not sure how much else she understands when it comes to why she must or mustn't do something.

I think whenever you can work to avert a tantrum, etc.-- that is the absolute BEST thing! Prevention, as they say, is the best medicine!

Usually when I am placing boundaries I also give the why of it--even with my babies and toddlers. I know they can't really conceptualize the why, but it that way it is still filtering into their brain for when they can conceptualize. For example you could say to your lttle one "Good job staying away from the stove while mommy is cooking! It's very hot and if you touch it you can burnt and it will really hurt. You are sure doing a great job being careful!"

I do this for my babies if they are biting while nursing or give me a playful slap "No biting (or hitting) --that hurts mommy and hurts mommy's feelings." For hitting I also then show them how I like to be touched-I take their hand and say "Gentle touch. Gentle touches on mommy. Mommy likes gentle touches- that feels so nice!"

When I am keeping my toddlers away from outlets- again it's "No touch! Hot! Hurt baby! No touch!"

 

[Jemma]

I think whenever you can work to avert a tantrum, etc.-- that is the absolute BEST thing! Prevention, as they say, is the best medicine!

Usually when I am placing boundaries I also give the why of it--even with my babies and toddlers. I know they can't really conceptualize the why, but it that way it is still filtering into their brain for when they can conceptualize. For example you could say to your lttle one "Good job staying away from the stove while mommy is cooking! It's very hot and if you touch it you can burnt and it will really hurt. You are sure doing a great job being careful!"

I do this for my babies if they are biting while nursing or give me a playful slap "No biting (or hitting) --that hurts mommy and hurts mommy's feelings." For hitting I also then show them how I like to be touched-I take their hand and say "Gentle touch. Gentle touches on mommy. Mommy likes gentle touches- that feels so nice!"

When I am keeping my toddlers away from outlets- again it's "No touch! Hot! Hurt baby! No touch!"

So far so good, then. We started showing DD what "gentle" means early on. I can't actually remember the last time she hit either of us on purpose, which is great. We would practice the stroking of hands, knees, hair, and praise her like crazy when she got the gentle touch right. She's a gentle child by nature.

We rarely smack our daughter but I don't even want that thought to occur in my mind when she's being 'difficult'. There's a reason she's being difficult, I figure, whether it's she's in pain, trying to express herself, frustrated, hungry, etc, etc. It's hard to know WHAT that reason is sometimes.

 

[katelyn]

If David doesn't want his teeth brushed, too bad, thats not an option, so what kind of toothpaste does he want to use.... what does he want to do afterwards (some kids, some ages, talking fast and about what you are doing after you're done with un-favorite activity helps)

Leanna, I have been trying the talking fast thing you mentioned here and it has really helped make things that Natalie doesn't want to do a lot more bearable. Thanks for posting it.

 

[katelyn]

I deal with some anger issues where I end up acting totally opposite of how I believe I should in parenting. So I bought the book She's Gonna Blow!: Real Help for Moms Dealing with Anger by Julie Ann Barnhill. I'm not done reading it yet, but I'm finding it very helpful and thought I would mention it in case anyone else was interested!

 

[annaapple]

I think as you transition you have to expect there to be a bit of time where things are a little unruly. The kids need time to assimilate it all, and mom and dad need time to feel comfortable in their new approach.

We are still in the transition phase - and by 'we' I mean parents and kids! Some changes for the better were almost immediately apparent though, I think because the oldest sensed we were on his side and wanted to help him, not fight him. We were big on hugs anyway, but now it is always the first thing I do whenever anything goes wrong, and it helps us both: me to remember I am the adult and my job is to nurture, him that he IS loved. With a full 'emotional tank' he is easier to discipline (guide into appropriate behavior). Those sorts of successes help us to stay encouraged for all the other times when it is not so easy (ie most of the time!). At least I no longer dread having to spend the day bending kids to my will - the whole atmosphere has changed for the better.

One tip: try yoga breathing with them. Oldest DS now knows what this is and can calm himself down much better. So now the sequence is: me going "yoga breaths, sweetie" and him doing in through the nose, out through the mouth... When he is calm, we talk about the problem.

 

[RoseofLima]

I deal with some anger issues where I end up acting totally opposite of how I believe I should in parenting. So I bought the book She's Gonna Blow!: Real Help for Moms Dealing with Anger by Julie Ann Barnhill. I'm not done reading it yet, but I'm finding it very helpful and thought I would mention it in case anyone else was interested!

Oh- I'll have to take a look! I realized how close to the surface it still all is this week as my nemesis-- er..I mean my mom... is visiting.

*VENT Warning**

Good golly that woman brings out the worst in me! She is so unpleasant and stressful to be around. The kids all love her so much- for which I am very grateful...but she sets up these situations which always yield to discipline issues. I had to drag her out of the aquarium yesterday- because the kids had had it. They were tired and started struggling to behave--and she actually WANTED and thought it feasible to stay another 4 hours until the aquarium closed! She was really ticked with me that I made us leave. (We had already been there for four hours).

She also broke a little trinket in a store swinging her purse--and then was very vocal and belligerent that she had to pay for the object. My kids have never broken anything in a store-- and if they did they'd be expected to pay for it out of their money, or to do extra work around the house to earn back me paying for it. But my mom went on and on about the $6 she had to pay for her negligence. I was like what the heck kind of message does that teach the kids???

Uh! She is so loud and 90% of what she says is a complaint about another person or group of people or institution. She has these ridiculous expectations for how much the kids can do each day-- she is always pushing them way past their limits and then I have to deal with it all!!! She has tantrums anytime I impose a limit-- or talk with her about a conflict in a non-angry way. She accuses me of talking to her like a child...and I feel like saying "Well if that's how you wanna act...."-- but the reality is that she is so divorced from any type of healthy communication that she is completely offended by it all!!!

Two more days to go.....

 

[annaapple]

Hang in there Rose! You're doing a good job!



Everything you do differently from the way she did, she might unconsciously be taking as a criticism of her, which is making her 'worse'. Also there's that weird psychological thing that one person's behavior makes another's more extreme. Like when other people are full of energy, it can make you feel more tired? Or how someone staying calm makes the other person more angry? You being more mature than her is probably showing her something about herself she doesn't want to see. End of psycho-babble.

I have no advice you can't think of for yourself, so just lots of to you!

And what I always say to myself when the going gets tough is:

THIS TOO SHALL PASS!
​

 

[DonnaB]

Whew, It took me a bit to read the entire thread I just want to introduce myself. I am a mom of one just-turning-two year old. We do not use punitive dicipline at all, and don't want to resort to it in the future. That's why I'm here--to learn more things to put into my "bag of tricks" as DD gets older. Nice to "meet" you all