3abn Continued

[PeacefulSDA]

Respectfully, let Rosie speak for herself, You don't know her, her situation, the circumstances or anything about it other then what she posted.

Peach,
I don't know whether to salute you or cry. Why are you being so defensive? This is a forum and folks post and then discuss. Rosie posted, Pinkpanther posted, I posted, we all discussed. If Rosie would prefer I not make comments on her posts or defend her, let her tell me that herself and then she and I will have the appropriate discussion about how forum posts, when made, are by their very nature, open to response.

Can we share perspectives here without acrimony?

 

[Pickle]

Tomatoe and Peach,

Rather than quote you, I'll just ask the question again: Yes, I verified it, but I'm wondering if you did as well: The trip on March 15, 2007, to Minneapolis?

 

[Pickle]

Hey, I've heard that Linda got a new lawyer. Anyone know anything about him? Does Danny like him all right?

 

[tomatoe]

They were never asked not to participate in the group discussions.

I was under the understanding that we were supposed to discuss everything together. Harold sent out emails to all of us. I replied to all. Thus Danny and Walt got replies from me to Harold, but we never received one single reply from them.

Danny and Walt never once participated in the group discussion. Yet Harold never mentions that in his statement, which suggests that he was not as neutral as he should have been.

I am sure you didn't receive a reply from them. I would imagine their replies went directly to Harold to keep from having things "misconstrued" as you are trying to do now.

 

[Pickle]

Why did that take months?

Excellent point, but for a different reason. According to http://www.save3abn.com/tommy-shelton-confession.htm, Tommy wrote:

"Although Carol was very hurt at you for several years for continuing to be friends with me when you knew she didn't want us together, she too has been working on finding healing and has forgiven us both."
​

This raises the question of whether Tommy's "apology" was really an apology. We have the recent case where the lady raped 20-odd years ago was contacted by her rapist because he wanted to apologize, and then maintained that there was not struggle, but then admitted that she was raped, but denied her suspicion that it was a gang rape. She then contacted the authorities since he really wasn't sorry after all, at least not the right kind of sorry. They let him off easy because he was going to testify against the others, because it was a gang rape after all, they thought.

So here we have Tommy talking about years, and yet Duane's account, as I understand it, differs. What's up? Is it a repeat of the type of apology from that Virginia fellow?

 

[tomatoe]

Tomatoe and Peach,

Rather than quote you, I'll just ask the question again: Yes, I verified it, but I'm wondering if you did as well: The trip on March 15, 2007, to Minneapolis?

Mr. Pickle, you have no idea what I know or don't know but there is this piece of information that you can take to the bank.....I would not give you the literal time of day if you requested it. Several reasons apply. First you misconstrue and twist what you do hear. Then your "verification" process leaves quite a bit to be desired and last but not least, I make it a habit NOT to give anyone information that acts as desperate as you do to get it.

 

[Pickle]

... to keep from having things "misconstrued" ...

Not so. Not at all. Everyone had to agree to a confidentiality agreement that protected our discussions. Anything said by anyone had to be held in strict confidence, and only a mutually agreed statement could be released. Remember how Harold violated that agreement in his January 24 statement?

Certainly Danny wasn't that paranoid that he felt he couldn't participate in the group discussion, was he?

But you are evading the real issue: Harold blamed the breakdown in part on Linda's not participating in the discussion, when the fact is that Danny and Walt never participated in the group discussions either. Not once. That's the point.

If they didn't want to participate, that's fine. But then to blame it all on Linda is wrong.

 

[Pickle]

Mr. Pickle, you have no idea what I know or don't know but there is this piece of information that you can take to the bank.....I would not give you the literal time of day if you requested it. Several reasons apply. First you misconstrue and twist what you do hear. Then your "verification" process leaves quite a bit to be desired and last but not least, I make it a habit NOT to give anyone information that acts as desperate as you do to get it.

And that's why you can't say whether or not you've verified that a trip did take place on March 15.

You who are a Seventh-day Adventist. You who just happens to know a board member from the Dunn Loring, VA, Community Church of God. Just a coincidence.

That's why you can't even tell me what time it is, because I will misconstrue what you say.

I don't buy it one bit.

 

[Peach45]

Not so. Not at all. Everyone had to agree to a confidentiality agreement that protected our discussions. Anything said by anyone had to be held in strict confidence, and only a mutually agreed statement could be released. Remember how Harold violated that agreement in his January 24 statement?

Certainly Danny wasn't that paranoid that he felt he couldn't participate in the group discussion, was he?

But you are evading the real issue: Harold blamed the breakdown in part on Linda's not participating in the discussion, when the fact is that Danny and Walt never participated in the group discussions either. Not once. That's the point.

If they didn't want to participate, that's fine. But then to blame it all on Linda is wrong.

Mr Pickle,

Try to understand that Danny and his side did communicate "with Harold Lance". You and Joy and Matthews did communicate with Harold Lance. Linda did not communicate with Harold Lance (except to introduce Gailon Joy at the beginning)

It isn't difficult to understand.

 

[Pinkpanther007]

Before I get jumped here, let me just say Tommy was married any relationship outside his marriage was inappropriate and a sin, but I do believe his apology.

Sigh... My whole problem with this particular allegation of sexual abuse, is that it seems it never would have happened if the word "no" had been employed. Even the alleged victim says the act itself didn't occur because he didn't "allow it" He says T.S. was the one who broke it off when he realized he wasn't comfortable with it.

Why did that take months? Why didn't T.S. know he was uncomfortable with it before then?

I just don't get it.

This is what I am talking about from D.C.'s statement:
http://www.save3abn.com/tommy-shelton-victim-duane-clem-statement.htm

Sometime in late 1985 or early 1986, Tommy came to me and said he had an unusual medical problem and asked for my help...I wanted to say something right then, but I didn't. ..Over the next few months, Tommy and I would meet at his house, the church, the original 3ABN building, and even one night on a back country road, anywhere he thought no one would see us. There was a lot of inappropriate touching, but nothing further. He wanted much more out of it, but I couldn't let it happen because in my heart I knew it wasn't right.... Whenever he would be touching me, I would get muscle spasms in my back. I guess it was because I was so tense. More than once he sensed that I was in pain, and a couple of times he even accused me of "faking it" ....When Tommy found this out, he decided that it would be a good opportunity for him to come down to my room and no one would ever know the difference....Finally, as the supervisor was going to reserve the room, I told him that "something had come up" and I was going to have to drive back home, so I wouldn't need the room after all. I lied. I don't remember what excuse I gave Tommy for not staying the night down there, but I know I lied to him also....Finally, he said he realized that I was uncomfortable and decided we shouldn't be doing this.

In retrospect it is easy for people to pontificate, but the fact remains, Tommy used his pastoral authority to commit acts of sexual assualt against young people who were subject to his authority. Are the adult women who are raped every day responsible for their own rape becuase they were too frightend or intimidated to say no? Or because no didn't work?

 

[Peach45]

Excellent point, but for a different reason. According to http://www.save3abn.com/tommy-shelton-confession.htm, Tommy wrote:

"Although Carol was very hurt at you for several years for continuing to be friends with me when you knew she didn't want us together, she too has been working on finding healing and has forgiven us both."​

This raises the question of whether Tommy's "apology" was really an apology. ...So here we have Tommy talking about years, and yet Duane's account, as I understand it, differs. What's up?

It doesn't seem hard to understand to me. The inapropriate relationship ended after months, their platonic friendship continued for years.

Duane doesn't seem to question whether the apology was really an apology... he even said he'd forgiven him.

If I am incorrect He can speak right up and clarify things.

 

[Peach45]

Peach,
I don't know whether to salute you or cry. Why are you being so defensive? This is a forum and folks post and then discuss. Rosie posted, Pinkpanther posted, I posted, we all discussed. If Rosie would prefer I not make comments on her posts or defend her, let her tell me that herself and then she and I will have the appropriate discussion about how forum posts, when made, are by their very nature, open to response.

Can we share perspectives here without acrimony?

Yes we can. I apologise if I sounded defensive, I certainly didn't feel that way.

I just prefer to hear people speak for themsleves, rather then have strangers who don't know them try to speak for them. It makes me feel perfectly bewildered, as fact and fiction get mixed together, and I get confused when others start repeating it all as if the fiction is the facts. Maybe others do too.

Can you understand that?

 

[Rosyroi]

rosie, i appreciate your thought but not everyone heals in the same way. you never know; maybe one morning you might wake up and really be mad.
i have forgiven my abuser but i know what it can do to a child, how it can form or deform their entire look on life and everytime i hear of it, it makes me furious.
we as individuals deal with things differently and we have to go through different processes to get there. tho' you are trying to give a positive simple answer, "gave my heart to the God", that might not work that easy for everyone. that actually can make people in this situation feel even more guilt because they think, well i must not be trusting or believing in God enough. God is the right person with the right plan to help us walk through these times in our life but it's just not always that simple, especially when it's out in the open.
you didn't say if you ever confronted your assailant. i'm thinking you probably didn't, so in your case, things were quite different don't you think? i'm glad you made the comment, but i just dont see it being that simple for these young men. just a thought.

"A little girl" comment tells me the person is under seven or six years old and mabe older than three years old. To me that would be many years away from being an adult who would be at least 17 or so years old.
Just an observation... carry on.
Rosyroi

 

[Rosyroi]

tomatoe,
I understand your point that Duane was not a little child when, as he reports, he was manipulated into doing sexual things with the pastor he trusted. Being taken advantage of, no matter what age one is, is victimization.

If my youngest son was 19 again and was abused in this way I would personally still see it as a child being taken advantage of, but that is the opinion of a mother's heart. While not defenseless as say an 8 or 9-year-old a 19-year-old is still impressionable and more easily manipulated than a 40-year-old, IMO.

A M E N !!!!!!!!

 

[tomatoe]

And that's why you can't say whether or not you've verified that a trip did take place on March 15.

You who are a Seventh-day Adventist. You who just happens to know a board member from the Dunn Loring, VA, Community Church of God. Just a coincidence.

That's why you can't even tell me what time it is, because I will misconstrue what you say.

I don't buy it one bit.

No you are right. It isn't just because you will misconstrue, it is because you have appointed yourself, with no credentials to do so, in a place you don't need to be. Even if some of your allegations were true, that would be up to the church, the IRS and the courts to figure out. Basically what I am saying is that, because of "who you are not" None of this is any of your business. That, among many other reasons, is why I wouldn't give you any information.

 

[Pinkpanther007]

No you are right. It isn't just because you will misconstrue, it is because you have appointed yourself, with no credentials to do so, in a place you don't need to be. Even if some of your allegations were true, that would be up to the church, the IRS and the courts to figure out. Basically what I am saying is that, because of "who you are not" None of this is any of your business. That, among many other reasons, is why I wouldn't give you any information.

The same could be said of Danny Shelton. Where are his credentials? What gives him the credibility to say what he says? He annointed himself. What about you, Tomatoe? Where are your credentials? What gives you the credibility to spout the things that you spout? Why should anyone listen to a word you say? You and your ilk have been proven wrong time and again. Definitively. Why should anyone care that you wouldn't give any information? Hasn't your wrongness been consistent?

 

[Jimlarmore]

Mr. Larmore,
you have insulted me and you have insulted this young man you refer to. first of all i said nothing about accepting forgiveness or giving forgiveness. i said "i didn't care if he apologised.....i didn't care if he bought them a Lotus......" what i was emphasising (as is clear to see when it's in context!!) is that that, to me, dosn't make it a "done deal". an apology in a letter?? are you kidding me? do you actually believe that is enough? that that should be it? that that should heal all wounds and these guys should go on their way? as i've said before here, you are really out of touch in this situation and you have no room to be pious when you are on here everyday saying things that are hurting people just as much as you think "we" are hurting TS. i've been on here for about a month and time and time again you say things like this and these young men and people who have been there totally disagree with you but you keep on. You just don't get it so you need to let this one go.
i also said in my post "alleged" in reference to TS. i have not branded him and cruicified him as you would paint it. the evidence is overwhelming in my opinion and anyone who has any "Gay-dar" can see the propensity. He was a Preacher Mr. Larmore.



If you guys have no clue about the topic, Please, just move on to something you do know something about. This topic is delicate and your lack of understanding is hurtful.

I know a little about it, I used to investigate these cases as a law enforcement officer. Laying all of that aside you have said if we don't know what we are talking about we need to move on to something else. I would suggest sir you take your own advise. DClem was 19 when this happened according to his own admission. This is not child abuse and DClem wasn't majorly concerned with making a federal case out of what happened until Mr. Pickle got in touch with him. If child abuse occurred then that needs to be addressed but I did not insult DClem and I have not addressed you in any way except when you first started to post on this thread against 3ABN and Danny Shelton.
God Bless

Jim Larmore

 

[Jimlarmore]

Not a penny.

Actually, I think it bothered her when for so long I kept saying that I didn't know if she was innocent or guilty. She's glad I've finally gotten off the fence to the point that I've said that definitely as of July 17, 2004, she was innocent of the sin of fornication.

I can understand once you have comitted yourself to a certain path why you would lean towards a certain possibility but you cannot know for sure if she did or didn't, unless of course you have been her constant companion 24/7 for the last several years.

BTW, if this all comes to court and if you were paid by checks instead of cash the payments are traceable and will be a part of the discovery information they will go after.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

 

[Pickle]

Mr Pickle,

Try to understand ...

Peach,

Try to understand. Harold Lance blamed the breakdown in part on a lack of communication from Linda. He never mentioned in his statement:

• Danny and Walt never participated in the group discussions either.
• Harold himself ignored questions and admitted so.
• The 3ABN board's decision was not communicated to us until 10 weeks after the fact.
• Danny's acceptance of a document was never communicated to us.
• We never received the October 31 document, and to this day, Harold Lance refuses to send it to us.

All that being so, for Harold Lance to blame the lack of communication entirely on Linda reveals bias on his part.

 

[Pickle]

This is not child abuse and DClem wasn't majorly concerned with making a federal case out of what happened until Mr. Pickle got in touch with him.

Your statement as worded is inaccurate.