3abn Continued

[tomatoe]

No confusion necessary.

I previously asked if the sources got it wrong, something like that. You hadn't replied yet, so I thought I'd see if you had found out anything.

I doubt the sources are wrong, but I always try to keep an open mind.

I am sorry Mr. Pickle but you are making a fool of yourself on all counts. Either you VERIFIED your information before you posted or you didn't. If you had VERIFIED first, then there would be no doubts as to whether your sources could have gotten it wrong. That is what VERIFY means.....to check out that the info is correct or indeed, did happen BEFORE you make it public.

Think, Mr. Pickle, Think......The people that are reading your posts are not idiots.

 

[Rosie55]

Rosie55,
I got that information from your post. Yes, I don't know your age but the time between being a child and becoming an adult is usually measured in years. It was just an polite observation that your post seemed to say two conflicting things.

If I misread what you meant, I apologize.

It's okay.

 

[tomatoe]

That time I used "sources" in a generic way, so my use there could have been singular or it could have been plural.

Sorry I can't get more specific. You can kind of guess what might happen to the "sources" if I divulged anything. I don't want to get in trouble.

Then, that would be a sort of, generic lie, wouldn't it?

 

[truthmagnet]

Quote: truthmagnet
if tommy is suffering, he brought it on himself. that is not the victims fault. it sounds like you are trying to make them feel guilty because tommy is going through a hard time. have you thought about how hard a time these boys have gone through and how hard a time they will continue to go through? it doesn't matter to me if tommy apologised and made offers of counseling to his victims. he could buy them each a lotus and that would not make things all better. he should be punished for what he's done (alleged) by civil law. any suffering he is going through right now is of his own doing and these young men are NOT responsible for that. they have a right to yell from the highest hill for as long as they want in my opinion. whatever they have to do,
that helps them recover as long as it's honest, is fine in my book. This is not their shame. It belongs to their abuser.

Quote: Jim Larmore's response to my post above:
An attempt at righting a wrong should never be cast aside. If we have the love of Christ in our hearts we should always be willing to forgive as Christ told us to. If Christ assumed this position or posture for us we would be doomed to death. The reality is Christ said if we want forgiveness we are to forgive.
I can only speak for my impression of the one I have communicated with but he seems to be ok right now. He certainly does not feel the need to have councelling of any kind and he is very adament about that. He actually said it was no big deal at one point but now has made it a big deal in a lot of ways. I think he is a pawn of the players in this saga to keep the fires of denigration going. This is a terrible accusation Mr. Larmore !
As far as punishing Tommy goes I think that needs to be done or persued by the victims not us. It's not our place to do what we are doing here. What we have done here without proper evidence to do is despicable to me. I have not seen the Lord glorified in much of this at all. Instead I have seen nothing but hate, contention and mud slinging. Who do you think that really glorifies?

God Bless
Jim Larmore

Mr. Larmore,
you have insulted me and you have insulted this young man you refer to. first of all i said nothing about accepting forgiveness or giving forgiveness. i said "i didn't care if he apologised.....i didn't care if he bought them a Lotus......" what i was emphasising (as is clear to see when it's in context!!) is that that, to me, dosn't make it a "done deal". an apology in a letter?? are you kidding me? do you actually believe that is enough? that that should be it? that that should heal all wounds and these guys should go on their way? as i've said before here, you are really out of touch in this situation and you have no room to be pious when you are on here everyday saying things that are hurting people just as much as you think "we" are hurting TS. i've been on here for about a month and time and time again you say things like this and these young men and people who have been there totally disagree with you but you keep on. You just don't get it so you need to let this one go.
i also said in my post "alleged" in reference to TS. i have not branded him and cruicified him as you would paint it. the evidence is overwhelming in my opinion and anyone who has any "Gay-dar" can see the propensity. He was a Preacher Mr. Larmore.


Tomatoe,
for you to say, "he was 20. Big Difference!" really bothers me. There is a difference between someone who can physically defend themselves and someone who cannot, but age has nothing to do with it. There was a 90yr. old blind lady in the small town i used to live in that was beaten and raped in the middle of the night in her own bed. Was that not "abuse" because she was not a small child?
When I was about 27yrs.old I was working in a large banking business in a big city. After working late one evening, my boss gave me a ride home , (absolutely no flirting or interest on my part in any way) but as soon as we pulled in my driveway he leaned over and groped me. I was horrified and jumped out of the car. The next day he fired me. Was that abuse?

If you guys have no clue about the topic, Please, just move on to something you do know something about. This topic is delicate and your lack of understanding is hurtful.

 

[Pinkpanther007]

All of the things that are libel will be brought out in court Bob. From what I have read of some of your posts you take things out of context and use partial sentences to draw conclusions on and then go about parading that as a proof of your accusations, i.e. the hiding the gun as a basis for the divorce, etc. Also, in a law suit the intent will be looked at in depth. Attorneys are very good at bringing out the facts and what's really behind all of this, it will happen, it will come to pass.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

Does that include the libelous posts made on this forum stating that Linda was censured by the church? How about the slanderous posts on BSDA stating that she was wearing a wedding ring at the General Conference sessions in St Louis? What about the many emails Danny sent out insinuating that she had married Dr. Abrahamsen, taken vacations to Florida and other states with him before the divorce? The many other unfounded statements made by representation of 3ABN, both official and non-official? Libel and slander suits can be a double edged sword.

 

[Pinkpanther007]

I am sorry Mr. Pickle but you are making a fool of yourself on all counts. Either you VERIFIED your information before you posted or you didn't. If you had VERIFIED first, then there would be no doubts as to whether your sources could have gotten it wrong. That is what VERIFY means.....to check out that the info is correct or indeed, did happen BEFORE you make it public.

Think, Mr. Pickle, Think......The people that are reading your posts are not idiots.

Did you guys verify that Linda had been censured by the church before posting that she had? Did you verify that Ronnie was ordained before posting that he was? Did Danny verify that Linda was married before insinnuating that she was? Did anyone verify that she had taken vacations in Florida and Nevada before it was made "fact" by those who create "facts?" Did anyone verify that she had commited "adultery" before telling the world that she had?

 

[Pinkpanther007]

Rape would be by force. Was Duane taken by physical force. And in what way since allegedly the actual (act) wasn't what happened.

Anyone who abuses a position of authority for the sake of sexual gratification has committed a heinous moral crime against the person(s) who they assaulted. The person who commits that act under the authority of pastoral representation of God has committed their sexual crime in the name of the authority of God. Do you grasp the magnitude of that, Tomatoe? That goes beyond taking the name of the Lord our God in vain.

 

[tomatoe]

Quote: truthmagnet
if tommy is suffering, he brought it on himself. that is not the victims fault. it sounds like you are trying to make them feel guilty because tommy is going through a hard time. have you thought about how hard a time these boys have gone through and how hard a time they will continue to go through? it doesn't matter to me if tommy apologised and made offers of counseling to his victims. he could buy them each a lotus and that would not make things all better. he should be punished for what he's done (alleged) by civil law. any suffering he is going through right now is of his own doing and these young men are NOT responsible for that. they have a right to yell from the highest hill for as long as they want in my opinion. whatever they have to do,
that helps them recover as long as it's honest, is fine in my book. This is not their shame. It belongs to their abuser.

Quote: Jim Larmore's response to my post above:
An attempt at righting a wrong should never be cast aside. If we have the love of Christ in our hearts we should always be willing to forgive as Christ told us to. If Christ assumed this position or posture for us we would be doomed to death. The reality is Christ said if we want forgiveness we are to forgive.
I can only speak for my impression of the one I have communicated with but he seems to be ok right now. He certainly does not feel the need to have councelling of any kind and he is very adament about that. He actually said it was no big deal at one point but now has made it a big deal in a lot of ways. I think he is a pawn of the players in this saga to keep the fires of denigration going. This is a terrible accusation Mr. Larmore !
As far as punishing Tommy goes I think that needs to be done or persued by the victims not us. It's not our place to do what we are doing here. What we have done here without proper evidence to do is despicable to me. I have not seen the Lord glorified in much of this at all. Instead I have seen nothing but hate, contention and mud slinging. Who do you think that really glorifies?

God Bless
Jim Larmore

Mr. Larmore,
you have insulted me and you have insulted this young man you refer to. first of all i said nothing about accepting forgiveness or giving forgiveness. i said "i didn't care if he apologised.....i didn't care if he bought them a Lotus......" what i was emphasising (as is clear to see when it's in context!!) is that that, to me, dosn't make it a "done deal". an apology in a letter?? are you kidding me? do you actually believe that is enough? that that should be it? that that should heal all wounds and these guys should go on their way? as i've said before here, you are really out of touch in this situation and you have no room to be pious when you are on here everyday saying things that are hurting people just as much as you think "we" are hurting TS. i've been on here for about a month and time and time again you say things like this and these young men and people who have been there totally disagree with you but you keep on. You just don't get it so you need to let this one go.
i also said in my post "alleged" in reference to TS. i have not branded him and cruicified him as you would paint it. the evidence is overwhelming in my opinion and anyone who has any "Gay-dar" can see the propensity. He was a Preacher Mr. Larmore.


Tomatoe,
for you to say, "he was 20. Big Difference!" really bothers me. There is a difference between someone who can physically defend themselves and someone who cannot, but age has nothing to do with it. There was a 90yr. old blind lady in the small town i used to live in that was beaten and raped in the middle of the night in her own bed. Was that not "abuse" because she was not a small child?
When I was about 27yrs.old I was working in a large banking business in a big city. After working late one evening, my boss gave me a ride home , (absolutely no flirting or interest on my part in any way) but as soon as we pulled in my driveway he leaned over and groped me. I was horrified and jumped out of the car. The next day he fired me. Was that abuse?

If you guys have no clue about the topic, Please, just move on to something you do know something about. This topic is delicate and your lack of understanding is hurtful.

Truth, I understand what you are saying. On the other hand I am tired of people talking about Duane and then making statements that we have to protect "other children." That was my point. I would consider a little old lady as helpless as a child. I would not consider a 19 or 20 year old man as helpless as either one.
JMO

 

[PeacefulSDA]

Anyone who abuses a position of authority for the sake of sexual gratification has committed a heinous moral crime against the person(s) who they assaulted. The person who commits that act under the authority of pastoral representation of God has committed their sexual crime in the name of the authority of God. Do you grasp the magnitude of that, Tomatoe? That goes beyond taking the name of the Lord our God in vain.

Pinkpanther,
Well said. A pastor who grooms, manipulates and then sexually abuses those in his trust may be wearing the costume of righteousness but is actually conducting the ministry of God's adversary.

tomatoe,
There is a ministry in Thompsonville called The Hope of Survivors. They have a web site of the same name that clearly defines pastoral sexual abuse. The founders of this ministry, Steve and Samantha Nelson, have told their story on 3abn. Perhaps it would be edifying for you to visit their site and get familiar with the definitions of this type of abuse.

 

[PeacefulSDA]

Truth, I understand what you are saying. On the other hand I am tired of people talking about Duane and then making statements that we have to protect "other children." That was my point. I would consider a little old lady as helpless as a child. I would not consider a 19 or 20 year old man as helpless as either one.
JMO

tomatoe,
I understand your point that Duane was not a little child when, as he reports, he was manipulated into doing sexual things with the pastor he trusted. Being taken advantage of, no matter what age one is, is victimization.

If my youngest son was 19 again and was abused in this way I would personally still see it as a child being taken advantage of, but that is the opinion of a mother's heart. While not defenseless as say an 8 or 9-year-old a 19-year-old is still impressionable and more easily manipulated than a 40-year-old, IMO.

 

[Pinkpanther007]

dclem, I have also been sexually abused as a little girl and I am not a counselor. Nor did I ever go to a counselor about it.

It didn't take me months and months to get over it. When I became an adult and gave my heart to God, a lot of healing happened right then and there. I forgave my assailant and went on with my life.

There is a time to forgive and let God take care of it. He knows just how to deal with abusers. And if they don't pay for their crimes in this life, they most certainly will eventually because judgment will come.

Forgive? Yes. Forget? No!!!! Are you saying that the Abused should allow the abuser to go on and abuse others? Because you have forgiven and forgotten? It is a solemn responsibility of those who know the source of evil to warn others and do what they can to stop that source of evil.

 

[Pinkpanther007]

Truth, I understand what you are saying. On the other hand I am tired of people talking about Duane and then making statements that we have to protect "other children." That was my point. I would consider a little old lady as helpless as a child. I would not consider a 19 or 20 year old man as helpless as either one.
JMO

Tomatoe, do you not remember the victims who are not named Duane? The ones who WERE under the age of 18?

 

[Peach45]

Jim,

You misunderstood me. I was referring to your saying that Duane needed counseling for the reason that you cited. And the facts are that if he had immediately reported what allegedly happened to him, it is highly likely that his brother would not have been allegedly victimized in 1988.


It isn't documented testimonies that Walt and Danny are going to need. It is documentation that there indeed was an adulterous affair going on. And that will be their difficulty. They will have a difficult time proving that many of their statements are true.

As far as the ASI statement goes, note the following facts:

• Gailon and I did accept that ASI was capable of providing a fair forum, if they so chose, and we argued to this end with quite a few others.
• Both sides were to have input into the ground rules, but it turned out that the grounds rules were set in stone before we began negotiating. For example, Harold would not consider our request that both sides get to ask questions, and that the evidence be deposited at the heritage rooms of college libraries after the process was over.
• At no time did either Walt or Danny respond within the group discussions, yet Harold only faults Linda in this regard. Why?

I might beg to differ with other of Harold's assertions in your selected quote.

You mean at no time did they communicate in the group discussions between your team (Linda's team) and Harold Lance?

I thought they were asked not to...

That doesn't mean they did not communicate with Harold Lance, does it??

How is it Danny's side could agree to terms as stated in the ASI explanation, with no communication??

 

[Pinkpanther007]

Truth, I understand what you are saying. On the other hand I am tired of people talking about Duane and then making statements that we have to protect "other children." That was my point. I would consider a little old lady as helpless as a child. I would not consider a 19 or 20 year old man as helpless as either one.
JMO

Either way, a person like Tommy Shelton who uses the authority vested in them as a pastor and representative of GOD to commit a sexual crime against a person of ANY AGE, who is under their pastoral authority, is a crime against a person created by GOD, commited in the name of GOD and under GOD's authority.

 

[PeacefulSDA]

Forgive? Yes. Forget? No!!!! Are you saying that the Abused should allow the abuser to go on and abuse others? Because you have forgiven and forgotten? It is a solemn responsibility of those who know the source of evil to warn others and do what they can to stop that source of evil.

Pinkpanther,
In Rosie's defense, often, when one is a child, abuse is interpreted as being a normal part of life, especially when it is a frequent experience. A child is rarely equipped with the judgement to understand what they should be doing.

It is often the case that the child does not even realize that abuse has occurred until later on in adult life when judgement matures and the behavior is finally seen for what it was. By then, it is often too late to do anything about the abuser.

However, if the abuser is still around when the person has the maturity to understand what has happened, it then becomes so important to act to stop the abuse. Unfortunately, this can be a daunting challenge for some victims depending on their family/social situation. I can completely understand the fear that a young man would feel about reporting abuse by another male. Some abuser count on this fear and even further groom it to keep their victims quiet.

 

[Peach45]

tomatoe,

Did you find out if the source(s) got it wrong about that March 15 trip to Minneapolis?

Why is it, you think other's have to do your work?

It's your source, you are the one making the claims and posting about it, and now asking questions, you prove what you are saying.

If you don't know if something is even true why do you even bother bringing it up?

 

[Peach45]

Pinkpanther,
In Rosie's defense, often, when one is a child, abuse is interpreted as being a normal part of life, especially when it is a frequent experience. A child is rarely equipped with the judgement to understand what they should be doing.

It is often the case that the child does not even realize that abuse has occurred until later on in adult life when judgement matures and the behavior is finally seen for what it was. By then, it is often too late to do anything about the abuser.

However, if the abuser is still around when the person has the maturity to understand what has happened, it then becomes so important to act to stop the abuse. Unfortunately, this can be a daunting challenge for some victims depending on their family/social situation. I can completely understand the fear that a young man would feel about reporting abuse by another male. Some abuser count on this fear and even further groom it to keep their victims quiet.

Respectfully, let Rosie speak for herself, You don't know her, her situation, the circumstances or anything about it other then what she posted.

 

[Pinkpanther007]

Pinkpanther,
In Rosie's defense, often, when one is a child, abuse is interpreted as being a normal part of life, especially when it is a frequent experience. A child is rarely equipped with the judgement to understand what they should be doing.

It is often the case that the child does not even realize that abuse has occurred until later on in adult life when judgement matures and the behavior is finally seen for what it was. By then, it is often too late to do anything about the abuser.

However, if the abuser is still around when the person has the maturity to understand what has happened, it then becomes so important to act to stop the abuse. Unfortunately, this can be a daunting challenge for some victims depending on their family/social situation. I can completely understand the fear that a young man would feel about reporting abuse by another male. Some abuser count on this fear and even further groom it to keep their victims quiet.

I know. I have walked many miles in those painful shoes. Statistically if you see 4 girls, 1 is being, or has been sexually abused. If you see 6 boys, 1 is being, or has been sexually abused.

 

[Peach45]

Rape would be by force. Was Duane taken by physical force. And in what way since allegedly the actual (act) wasn't what happened.

Truth, I understand what you are saying. On the other hand I am tired of people talking about Duane and then making statements that we have to protect "other children." That was my point. I would consider a little old lady as helpless as a child. I would not consider a 19 or 20 year old man as helpless as either one.
JMO

Before I get jumped here, let me just say Tommy was married any relationship outside his marriage was inappropriate and a sin, but I do believe his apology.

Sigh... My whole problem with this particular allegation of sexual abuse, is that it seems it never would have happened if the word "no" had been employed. Even the alleged victim says the act itself didn't occur because he didn't "allow it" He says T.S. was the one who broke it off when he realized he wasn't comfortable with it.

Why did that take months? Why didn't T.S. know he was uncomfortable with it before then?

I just don't get it.

This is what I am talking about from D.C.'s statement:
http://www.save3abn.com/tommy-shelton-victim-duane-clem-statement.htm

Sometime in late 1985 or early 1986, Tommy came to me and said he had an unusual medical problem and asked for my help...I wanted to say something right then, but I didn't. ..Over the next few months, Tommy and I would meet at his house, the church, the original 3ABN building, and even one night on a back country road, anywhere he thought no one would see us. There was a lot of inappropriate touching, but nothing further. He wanted much more out of it, but I couldn't let it happen because in my heart I knew it wasn't right.... Whenever he would be touching me, I would get muscle spasms in my back. I guess it was because I was so tense. More than once he sensed that I was in pain, and a couple of times he even accused me of "faking it" ....When Tommy found this out, he decided that it would be a good opportunity for him to come down to my room and no one would ever know the difference....Finally, as the supervisor was going to reserve the room, I told him that "something had come up" and I was going to have to drive back home, so I wouldn't need the room after all. I lied. I don't remember what excuse I gave Tommy for not staying the night down there, but I know I lied to him also....Finally, he said he realized that I was uncomfortable and decided we shouldn't be doing this.

 

[Pickle]

You mean at no time did they communicate in the group discussions between your team (Linda's team) and Harold Lance?

I thought they were asked not to...

They were never asked not to participate in the group discussions.

I was under the understanding that we were supposed to discuss everything together. Harold sent out emails to all of us. I replied to all. Thus Danny and Walt got replies from me to Harold, but we never received one single reply from them.

Danny and Walt never once participated in the group discussion. Yet Harold never mentions that in his statement, which suggests that he was not as neutral as he should have been.