Time and evolution

FoeHammer

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Nothing = vacuum
something = atomic particles

Matter/energy flits into our universe all of the time without cause. Neutrons tunnel out of the nucleus for no cause other than it is possible for them to do so.

If things can be uncaused, and matter/energy can be suddenly created without cause, then where exactly are the problems for an uncaused universe?
No space = no vacuum.
Care to try again?

FoeHammer.
 
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Upisoft

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My existence demands it because... ''From nothing, nothing, comes, since nothing is nothing it can do nothing therefore it can cause nothing hence whatever began to exist needs a cause for it’s existence.'' (Dr Phil Fernandes) That cause, I believe, is God.

FoeHammer.

Causality used outside of context.
Say, what makes you think that at the moment when everything started there were cause-effect relations?

In the beginning there was nothing:
A) with cause-effect relations present within it.
B)

You choose A. I choose B. It looks like your explanation is more complicated. Please prove necessity of A.
 
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Sleeker

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C, as in Cat. :D
Of course there is no letter before A in the alphabet but there was intelligence before the alphabet. I believe God was before time and that time is a consequence of His creation of the heaven and the earth.

FoeHammer.
You're not getting the relation. If WWI happened before WWII, the "before" implies that time existed at both points and can be expressed on a timeline. "Before" means that time had to have existed at the moment of the first event. There can be no "before time" because that means that the first event happened when time did not yet exist, contradicting the bolded statement. If you know easy math, read the next sentence. Asking what's "before time" is like asking what x is equal to when: -1=|x|

This is like your letter analogy. Which letter is before A? Answer in terms of letters only. "Intelligence" is not a letter, and therefore, not an applicable answer.

So again, which letter comes before A? Answer with letters only.
 
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FoeHammer

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You're not getting the relation. If WWI happened before WWII, the "before" implies that time existed at both points and can be expressed on a timeline. "Before" means that time had to have existed at the moment of the first event. There can be no "before time" because that means that the first event happened when time did not yet exist, contradicting the bolded statement. If you know easy math, read the next sentence. Asking what's "before time" is like asking what x is equal to when: -1=|x|

This is like your letter analogy. Which letter is before A? Answer in terms of letters only. "Intelligence" is not a letter, and therefore, not an applicable answer.

So again, which letter comes before A? Answer with letters only.
WWI and WWII were events within time and therefore subject to time. I believe that God exists, infinite, not an event and not subject to time.

FoeHammer.
 
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Nathan Poe

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WWI and WWII were events within time and therefore subject to time. I believe that God exists, infinite, not an event and not subject to time.

FoeHammer.

I believe that Iggy the Magic Elf exists, infinite, not an event and not subject to time.
Nathan Poe.
 
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flatworm

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WWI and WWII were events within time and therefore subject to time. I believe that God exists, infinite, not an event and not subject to time.

FoeHammer.

It does not follow from any of the above that there could exist a "before time", or that anything outside of time can be causally related to it.
 
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FoeHammer

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It does not follow from any of the above that there could exist a "before time", or that anything outside of time can be causally related to it.
:yawn: God existed, He created the universe, space, matter, energy, time, God was before time. My seven year old grandson can grasp this so why can't you?

FoeHammer.
 
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flatworm

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:yawn: God existed, He created the universe, space, matter, energy, time, God was before time. My seven year old grandson can grasp this so why can't you?

FoeHammer.

Probably because I've studied logic. The concept of before time is self-contradictory. Outside of time, independently of time, fine- but there's still no way that before time can make sense.

You have yet to offer any sort of counterargument- and I really can't blame you. Remember what I told you before about how only theorems in formal logic and mathematics can be proven absolutely? This is one of them.

What I can blame you for is ignoring the fact you have no argument to give and your continued baseless assertions of something on the same level as married bachelors and square circles.
 
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Nathan Poe

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:yawn: God existed, He created the universe, space, matter, energy, time, God was before time.

The Flying Spaghetti Monster existed, It created the universe, space, matter, energy, time, and of course, garlic bread. The FSM was before time, but after the tomato sauce.

My seven year old grandson can grasp this so why can't you?

FoeHammer.

I'm sure a seven year old grandson can "grasp" a lot of these things before his critical thinking skills develop fully. Getting them while they're still young, hmmm?
 
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Sleeker

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WWI and WWII were events within time and therefore subject to time. I believe that God exists, infinite, not an event and not subject to time.

FoeHammer.
:yawn: God existed, He created the universe, space, matter, energy, time, God was before time. My seven year old grandson can grasp this so why can't you?

FoeHammer.
Okay, so what letter is before A?

What does x equal in the following equation:
-1 = |x|

What negative number is greater than 0?

What online website created the internet?

How can you roll two normal, six-sided dice and get a total of one?

What color is darker than pure black (total absence of light)?


If you can give me an answer to any of these questions, then I will believe that something can occur "before time."
 
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Skaloop

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Okay, so what letter is before A?

What does x equal in the following equation:
-1 = |x|

What negative number is greater than 0?

What online website created the internet?

How can you roll two normal, six-sided dice and get a total of one?

What color is darker than pure black (total absence of light)?


If you can give me an answer to any of these questions, then I will believe that something can occur "before time."

Ooooh! How about, which number is greater than infinity? Does that one work?
 
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flatworm

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Perhaps you ought to study the definition of the word before, it is not always in relation to time.

FoeHammer.

No, sometimes it relates to space, as in "in front of". Since time and space are aspects of the same thing, of course, this wouldn't make any sense even if time had a front!

It can also rank importance or preference, such as "age before beauty" or "death before dishonour". That usage doesn't really fit into your context, though. It also isn't connected to causality.
 
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FoeHammer

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Has FoeHammer clarified how you can have something existing before time, yet? Or has he just carried on insisting that he believes it's possible?
My position is clear to the theist, the atheist, as ever, is in denial.
I find it mildly amusing that the atheist/naturalist will claim a lack of evidence of/for a creator as a/the reason for their atheism/naturalism and yet will accept that the universe came into existence from nothing/nowhere without any evidence to support it.

FoeHammer.
 
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