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Examples of beneficial mutations?

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gluadys

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Sorry, I'm not going to go out and buy a book like this right now. Are there online sources for the info?

I don't have a lot of time for browsing and the first page of a google search did not turn up any peer-reviewed literature, but you might find these popular sources of interest.

The first simply mentions trilobite precursors in general and I guess requires buying the book to find out more.

Glenn Morton's article mentions two Ediacaran fossils in particular, Bomakellia and Spriggina, as trilobite precursors and includes a drawing of Bomakellia.

The third article shows a Spriggina and several other Ediacaran fossils that may be part of arthropod and trilobite evolution. It seems to be the most comprehensive. But it is in Spanish, so you may have to find a translator.

http://drydredgers.org/jack0510.htm
http://www.asa3.org/asa/PSCF/2001/PSCF3-01Morton.html
http://www.asturnatura.com/articulos/trilobites/evol.php
 
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random_guy

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Thanks for the links! I'll try to look at them tonight.

Now back to the originally scheduled topic.... <grin>

I think the biggest problem with this is the ability to observe the new structure on such a short time scale. At best, we'll probably only see new enzymes or proteins, nothing like a opposible thumbs, new kind of eye, etc... This is because of the exact reason Assyrian mentioned, and you pointed out, that it would require many mutations in order to co-opt genes to form something new. That's why scientists have to theorize about what might've happened when talking about large structures because we weren't around to see it.

Take the antifreeze protein (just a simple protein). Scientists believe that it was relatively recent, but that just means that evidence suggests that it came about ~12 million years ago. Humans have only been around several hundred thousand years, and science has only been around 200 years, and evolution about 150 years, and DNA about 50 years. I don't think we'll be seeing anything major within our lifetimes.

Of course, the neat thing about science is observation is only one part of science. Inference is also important. We can't observe electrons, air, gravity (is it a wave or particle?), etc... In fact, there's many things we can't observe in science, but you accept is correct. The same applies with evolution. Just because we weren't around to see the series of mutations that lead to the antifreeze protein, we can put together a theory based on genetic evidence on how such a protein might arise. We may never know if it's correct or not, but that's true of all science. It's always open to revision and change.

EDIT:

While unrelated to the topic, another neat thing about the antifreeze protein is that several groups of fish that have the protein split apart around 40 million years, but the fishes all have some form of the protein. According to evolution, the genetic sequences should show differences since the gene wasn't around before the split. Research shows that this theory is probably correct.

Parallelism in the case of AFGPs is quite nicely borne out in the second paper (2), in which Chen et al. describe the sequence of the AFGP gene from the Arctic cod, Boreogadus saida, and compare it to the notothenioid Dissostichus AFGP gene. Arctic cod and notothenioid AFGPs are nearly identical in amino acid composition and are comprised mainly of Thr-Ala-Ala repeats. In fact it was with a notothenioid gene probe (to the AFGP repeats) that Chen et al. isolated the Arctic cod gene, but the organization and sequence of the genes bespeaks their separate ancestries (Fig. 1). First, the coding regions flanking the AFGP repeats in the Arctic cod (including the signal peptide region) are not at all similar to notothenioid AFGP nor trypsinogen; indeed these regions in the Arctic cod AFGP are not identifiably similar to any known sequence. Second, the gene structure of the Arctic cod is quite different from the notothenioid AFGP, with each having different numbers and locations of introns, for example, in differing positions within the signal peptide. Since intron positions are highly conserved in vertebrate genes, they are reliable indicators of homology. Third, the repeating Thr-Ala-Ala of the AFGPs appears to be of different genetic origins. In the notothenioid, there is a strong bias for the specific codons aca-gct/g-gca, whereas many of the Arctic cod repeats are not this sequence, but instead use codons rarely if ever observed in the notothenioid AFGP gene. Finally, the spacers (which provide sites of posttranslational proteolytic cleavage) between AFGP repeats are clearly unrelated (having no sequence similarity) and are presumably processed by different proteases. Given all of this, Chen et al. (2) make a very strong case for the independent origins of AFGP genes.
 
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random_guy

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Hold on -- are you saying that we can see negative and neutral mutations because they are common enough, but we have not seen experimental confirmation of a positive structural mutation because it is so rare?

Well, depends on what you mean by structure. Again, look at the nylon eating bacteria. I'd say that is a new structure (in this case, an enzyme). In fact, I'd go as far to say as any form of resistance to pesticides or antibotics would count because it changes existing structures into something different. But if you want more dramatic and complex examples, just as the development of the immune system to the development of the antifreeze protein, then you'll need to wait a very long time for that. That's just the nature of how biology works.

Of course, if you want something very specific, there's always the MHC genes. From what I remember, mutations are vital to the MHC genes because every mutation adds variation, which is necessary for the immune system to adapt and combat new organisms. That's why there are a whole lot of different MHC alleles. As for observability, the genes mutate at a high rate,

a rate of [SIZE=-1]MHC alleles mutate at a frequency m host =10 &#376;5 per allele per host generation[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]

Since each mutation results in a different binding factor, I assume these count as new structures. Again, this is just a simple example, more complex things like eyes, wings, feathers, etc... must be inferred from the fossil record.

EDIT:

Of course, this thread seems to imply that if it isn't directly observable, it's somehow less scientific. This reasoning is incorrect since many things in science are unobservable (especially in physics) but are the foundation for our technology structure (like electrons).

EDIT2:
I'll find better source on MHC genes later so ignore this stuff for now.
[/SIZE]
 
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random_guy

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Why do you discount metabolic changes as examples of beneficial mutations?

Because if he didn't, then we could find an example. He wants to make the task impossible. It'd be like asking a geologists if they've ever observed a mountain being formed. If not, then mountain formation theory is incorrect. We all know that it takes a long time to form mountains, but there's ample evidence that it's occurred. However, by phrasing the question in such a way that it's impossible to satisfy the conditions, he can claim a win. What I want to know is if he's actually truly interested and wants to learn, or he's trying to see if he can "win".
 
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laptoppop

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Why do you discount metabolic changes as examples of beneficial mutations?
I discount metabolic changes because frankly, I don't know enough about the processes to judge accurately. Its hard to know when something is *new* and when something is old within expected variation. I'm open to folks helping me understand.

But what I'm finding fascinating is that there doesn't appear to be any example that is more accessible. There are tons of examples of negative mutations manifesting in various deformities. Why no "good" ones that add to the critter? Are they that rare?

If they are that rare that they have not been observed, then I would start to feel like one of the core foundations for evolution is resting on quicksand -- inferred not observed.
 
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gluadys

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If they are that rare that they have not been observed, then I would start to feel like one of the core foundations for evolution is resting on quicksand -- inferred not observed.

Not really. Darwin, after all, developed his theory with no knowledge whatsoever of mutations. All he knew was that within any population, characteristics varied.

Today, we know that varying characteristics have a genetic basis. But we also know that there is no simple correlation of genes with characteristics. The simple high-school examples based on Mendel's experiments would lead one to believe there is one gene each for flower colour, seed colour, seed texture, etc. But in most cases a gene has multiple effects and each characteristic depends on the interaction of multiple genes. Furthermore how a gene will express can be further modified by regulatory factors and environmental conditions. This makes the correlation of genes to characteristics extremely complex and difficult to study.

Mutations, or changes in gene sequence, add another level of complexity. Sometimes a mutation has no effect at all on the protein product. Sometimes it may substitute one amino acid for another, yet change nothing in the functioning of the protein. Sometimes a small change, especially in a gene that regulates embryonic development may have a remarkable effect.

So basically, there are several levels of complexity leading to variations in characteristics and we are only at the threshold of disentangling them. How do mutations affect genes? How do genes affect protein products? How do regulatory genes affect other genes? How do any of these affect metabolic, physiological, morphological, developmental and/or behavioural characteristics.

It is these complexities that make it difficult to tie the observation of a specific mutation to a specific change in a characteristic. It is much easier to observe the variations themselves and see how they are affected by natural selection. But sometimes we can see a variation and not be able to identify the genetic difference(s) that generate it, and sometimes we can see genetic differences without being able to determine what difference, if any, it makes in its possessor.

Nevertheless, we also have sufficient knowledge of genetics to know that the variations are the consequence of genetic differences. And to know that mutations do affect genes and how they operate.


The whole matter gets another level of complexity from the fact that there is a lot of motivation to discover a treatment in the case of things going wrong, and not a concomitant commitment to researching why things go right. So the bulk of investigation into the effects of mutations has been into those that cause problems, whether in ourselves or in the domesticated animals and plants we depend on. Hence we know a lot more about mutations that cause problems than about those that do not.

Finally, we should note that really there is no such thing as a good or bad mutation. Mutations are not good or bad in themselves. It is the consequence for survival and reproduction that is important, and that is not directly determined by the mutation per se, but by the impact of the environmental conditions. "Good" or "bad" always has to be understood in terms of this relationship. And that actually brings us back to variation--the observable differences among individuals in a population. Just where Darwin began.

Variation is what natural selection acts on directly. It is at the level of variation that the interaction between creature and environment takes place. Indirectly this has implications for genes and their mutations, since they are the source of variation. But connecting the levels between mutations and variations is not easy. It is a huge learning curve requiring a lot of research, and we have only just begun.
 
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laptoppop

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Good solid post - thanks. The complexities of the systems are mind-boggling and amazing.

OK, so without getting into the mechanism of how, have there been any observed changes of characteristics that show a positive increase in information within the normal environment of the critter?

For example, we see fruit flys that develop an extra set of wings. However, that is not a good thing because they fly worse, if at all. This is a characteristic that would be eliminated by natural selection.

Have we seen an increase in information -- in complexity -- in a good direction?
 
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gluadys

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Good solid post - thanks. The complexities of the systems are mind-boggling and amazing.

OK, so without getting into the mechanism of how, have there been any observed changes of characteristics that show a positive increase in information within the normal environment of the critter?

Since no one has come up with a way to measure biological information it is not possible deal with variations in this framework.

What has been observed is that under particular conditions certain changes are favoured. Take the research on the Galapagos finches done by Peter and Rosemary Grant. Under drought conditions, larger beaks were favoured. Under rainy conditions, smaller beaks were favoured. But do finches with larger beaks have more or less or the same amount of information as those with smaller beaks.

For example, we see fruit flys that develop an extra set of wings. However, that is not a good thing because they fly worse, if at all. This is a characteristic that would be eliminated by natural selection.

We don't know that it would always be eliminated by natural selection. Many insects do have two sets of wings and survive quite nicely. Some have two sets of wings, but one set is vestigial and no longer used in flight. So while the trait may be detrimental to fruit flies in their current environment, it does not imply that it would be detrimental in a different species and/or a different environment.

Have we seen an increase in information -- in complexity -- in a good direction?

Life has certainly become more complex over time--though there is no directionality in evolution that requires this. Simpler life forms continue to thrive as well. As for information, no telling until we know what the term means and how to measure it.

A simplistic answer equates information with amount of DNA, and in that case we have definitely seen increases in information. But this increase does not seem to correlate well with complexity.

Of course, measuring complexity, beyond the obvious fact that multi-cellular forms are more complex than unicellular forms, is another complex matter. What are the grounds for saying an apricot is more or less complex than a frog?
 
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random_guy

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Have we seen an increase in information -- in complexity -- in a good direction?

Thank goodness I saved this reply. Whenever a Creationist argues against evolution using genetic information, it's always pointless. This is because they have no idea what genetic information is or how to measure it.

What is genetic information, because according to information theory, you should have a metric to measure information. So how do you measure the information in a mutated and non mutated animal?

Genetic information, as used by Creationists is useless. Rice has 12 chromosome pairs, humans have 23 chromosome pairs, and potatoes have 24 chromosome pairs. Which one has more information? If you say humans, how did you measure it? If you say humans, does a human with blonde hair have more or less information than one with red hair? What about one with the sickle cell anemia allele and one without? What if we measure the information of both of these people in Africa, where malaria is prevalent and only those with a copy survive?

Genetic information is nothing more than hand waving and hoping that no one pays attention that it is never defined.
 
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laptoppop

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Interesting. I ask for examples and I'm getting semantics.

Changes which hurt animals are well known. Heck - I had a 5th wisdom tooth compared to normal folks having 4. (it *HURT*) There are tons and tons of examples of deformities. Shouldn't it be easy to list a few that are positive?

If not - why not? Are they that rare such that they have never been observed?
 
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random_guy

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Interesting. I ask for examples and I'm getting semantics.

Changes which hurt animals are well known. Heck - I had a 5th wisdom tooth compared to normal folks having 4. (it *HURT*) There are tons and tons of examples of deformities. Shouldn't it be easy to list a few that are positive?

If not - why not? Are they that rare such that they have never been observed?

Semantics are very important. How can we define something that increases in information when you won't even give a definition of information or any way to measure it? If I asked you to show that x is greater than y, then don't define x or y, and not give any mathematical relationship between them, is this a possible task?

There's a very simple reason why Creationist never define information, but use it all the time. The second it's defined, it's the second it's falsified. That's why they use vague terms and hope nobody notices. That's another reason why science is different than Creationism. Science requires hard definitions so there can be debate. Creationism tends to shivel in debate so they don't offer anything concrete (see hydrological sorting. Still no method mentioned that accounts for all the differences in fossil location).

EDIT: Of course, I wouldn't even need to ask for the definition of information had you not brought it up. If it's so easy to figure out what you mean by information, then why can't you answer simple questions like if having red or blonde hair has more information?
 
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gluadys

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Interesting. I ask for examples and I'm getting semantics.

Changes which hurt animals are well known. Heck - I had a 5th wisdom tooth compared to normal folks having 4. (it *HURT*) There are tons and tons of examples of deformities. Shouldn't it be easy to list a few that are positive?

If not - why not? Are they that rare such that they have never been observed?

You are getting into an area where I have had a long-running debate with mark kennedy.

Just what is the evolutionary significance of mutation-induced deformities?

I contend they have no evolutionary significance, because they are not selected for. They are selected against. They do not become part of the species norm precisely because they are harmful and interfere with reproduction (if only by making the individual less attractive to a potential mate) and sometimes survival.

The traits that have been selected for in the past are those that we now call normal. So every normal characteristic of a species was due to a variation--rooted in one or more mutations--which was favored by selection.

So there are also tons and tons of of examples of normal characteristics. The difficulty lies in connecting these characteristics to their genetic basis and beyond that to particular mutations.

Some potential connections have been suggested e.g. the role of the ASPM gene in the development of brain size in humans. http://www.hhmi.org/research/investigators/lahn.html

There is also the co-option of a gene (I forget which one) to become important in placental attachment.

These may not meet your condition of "observed". But it takes time for normalcy to emerge. We can only discuss what is normal in hindsight. How would we decide among the many non-harmful mutations that routinely occur today which, if any, will become a normal, species-wide characteristic of tomorrow? Which ones are candidates for the investment of time and money in research?
 
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laptoppop

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I apologize -- this is back of the envelope, not rigorous. I understand and agree that negative mutations would be eliminated by natural selection. Its a great corrective process.

What I find interesting is that the ratio of easily seen good versus bad changes appears to be so high. Its easy to see lots of significant bad changes. But I am a bit surprised that there aren't easy examples of good ones.

For example - start with a batch of fruit flies. Measure their flight speed. Take them through a lot of generations (maybe with light irradiation, I don't know). At the end show that there are some new outliers of extra fast flies compared to the original distribution.

OK, its a lousy experiment. But shouldn't there be some way to demonstrate good changes?
 
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random_guy

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I apologize -- this is back of the envelope, not rigorous. I understand and agree that negative mutations would be eliminated by natural selection. Its a great corrective process.

What I find interesting is that the ratio of easily seen good versus bad changes appears to be so high. Its easy to see lots of significant bad changes. But I am a bit surprised that there aren't easy examples of good ones.

For example - start with a batch of fruit flies. Measure their flight speed. Take them through a lot of generations (maybe with light irradiation, I don't know). At the end show that there are some new outliers of extra fast flies compared to the original distribution.

OK, its a lousy experiment. But shouldn't there be some way to demonstrate good changes?

Not really, since it's so hard to figure out what is good. Take the speed example, what if by making them quicker, you also speed up the metabolism which makes them expend more energy. This may be good or bad or neutral in the real world. Good if they need to get away from fast predators, bad if it's hard to find food, neutral if it doesn't really matter if they fly a bit faster.

It's easy to see the really bad ones, creatures die right away. It's very hard to figure out what's good/neutral/or bad in the long run. That's why we keep seeing all these studies that suggest having xxx gene may protect against heart disease. It seems that the gene is involved, but we always need more study. Throw in things like the environment, and it just gets so much more complicated.

Also, remember that evolution works on a population level, so it's easy to pick out the bad ones (individuals die), but you must look at a population level for good mutations. Of course, I still maintain that variation of any sort is good because it keeps our gene pool from being stagnant, and variation must have some kind of modified structure (as in new) like in our immune system.
 
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laptoppop

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OK, fair enough -- but wouldn't that just result in false positives as opposed to a lack of examples? If there were a fast fly, and you could see that it was because of a fully functioning new muscle, it would be quite plain. Perhaps a false positive, but it would at least look like an example.
 
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random_guy

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OK, fair enough -- but wouldn't that just result in false positives as opposed to a lack of examples? If there were a fast fly, and you could see that it was because of a fully functioning new muscle, it would be quite plain. Perhaps a false positive, but it would at least look like an example.

I don't think you'd see a new muscle because that's not how evolution works. The only way I see a new muscle coming around is if a massive mutation occurred (gene duplication and modification of that gene). More likely, I'd think we'd see modified muscle in some form.
 
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