Is Mary a source of Holiness?

[CaliforniaJosiah]

IMHO, the fact that there are over 2 billion individual Christians, millions of individual congregations and thousands of individual denominations has nothing to do with whether Mary makes us holy or whether the Catholic Marian dogmas are correct or not. Nor, IMHO, does it have anything to do with the Protestant belief that there is one holy catholic and apostolic church.



Back to the topic?


Thank you!


Pax!


- Josiah



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[Benedicta00]

and I uphill, you said that the beliefs were not that far apart...

you need to google some of those baptists denominations and and see for your self.

I recommend the 'two- seed-baptist" which is spin off of the "anti mission" (yes that's right, anti mission) baptist, it is very interesting stuff...

 

[Myriah]

point being, only 'tradition' tells you he was old. I really don't think so. I think he was young. BUT the point is, some traditions are just men 'thinking'. We have no proof either way.

I can't find your other post Melody, but you said why wouldn't these supposed step-brothers be there for the birth? That's a very good point!

Also, it has been summized that Jesus was born during the Feast of the Tabernacles which takes place in the Fall, and that is WHY Mary and Joseph were traveling and that is WHY there was no room at the "inn" nor anywhere else, because people had to pilgrimage to one place to attend The Feast of the Tabernacles. Therefore, these step brothers or cousins would have had to have been there with their family for this Feast [of the Tabernacles].

So, that is an excellent point Melody! because there is no mention of these family supposed step- brothers/step-sisters nor cousins at the birth.

 

[IamAdopted]

Everyone needs prayer...and again I would love it if you would pray for me!!

have been praying for you and will continue to pray for you..

 

[Myriah]

Every 'bible only' or 'non denominational' church that is independent and self run is considered a denomination and there are thousands of those world wide.

I've been to lots of Protestant churches, and they were all based upon the Bible.

The only reason non-denominationals are different is because we do not see a need for being involved in the scandals of churches with heirarchies. The head of our church is Christ, and the teachings of our church are from The Bible. We merely want to distance ourselves from the corrupt "church" and their scandals, of which we want no part. Each church keeps itself accountable in non-denominationals; whereas, we view other churches as sweeping scandals under the rug, which is truth and has gone on for centuries.

Another reason we call ourselves non-denominational is because we truly do not believe we are "protesting" anything. We feel the Medieval RCC left US behind, not the other way around, and thus, in truth, we are not actually protesting anything. That is why we are called non-denominational, although we agree with the five solos or tenets.

 

[Benedicta00]

I can't find your other post Melody, but you said why wouldn't these supposed step-brothers be there for the birth? That's a very good point!

Also, it has been summized that Jesus was born during the Feast of the Tabernacles which takes place in the Fall, and that is WHY Mary and Joseph were traveling and that is WHY there was no room at the "inn" nor anywhere else, because people had to pilgrimage to one place to attend The Feast of the Tabernacles. Therefore, these step brothers or cousins would have had to have been there with their family for this Feast [of the Tabernacles].

So, that is an excellent point Melody! because there is no mention of these family supposed step- brothers/step-sisters nor cousins at the birth.

i think it's important to note here that Joesph having other kids from another marriage is just speculation and it's what the eastern church chooses to piously believe (it's not infallible to them).

I personally do not think Joesph had other kids... I think these 'brothers' were cousins because in Jewish tradition, in those days if you were an only child, your cousin was considered your brother.

Combine that with the fact the bible never says Jesus had blood siblings, nor does it speak of Mary giving birth to anyone but Christ.

The thing is, we can all have our opinions but none of us are infallible, we can be wrong... and in this situation, the bible is ambiguous at best.

 

[Benedicta00]

I've been to lots of Protestant churches, and they were all based upon the Bible.

The only reason non-denominationals are different is because we do not see a need for being involved in the scandals of churches with heirarchies. The head of our church is Christ, and the teachings of our church are from The Bible. We merely want to distance ourselves from the corrupt "church" and their scandals, of which we want no part. Each church keeps itself accountable in non-denominationals; whereas, we view other churches as sweeping scandals under the rug, which is truth and has gone on for centuries.

Another reason we call ourselves non-denominational is because we truly do not believe we are "protesting" anything. We feel the Medieval RCC left US behind, not the other way around, and thus, in truth, we are not actually protesting anything. That is why we are called non-denominational, although we agree with the five solos or tenets.

all being based on the bible but yet when associate pastor Bob disagrees with lead pastor Joe, he takes his bible with him and goes down the street and opens his own church based on the bible thus creating yet another division.

As far as scandal go- non denominational independent churches have scandal too that are swept under the rug, you just don't hear about them that's all.

 

[IamAdopted]

Wow this thread has spread tee hee.. Lets look at some of the things posted here.. Protestants are to have 30 thousand denominations.. Catholics I don't know.. So if Christ were to come back today.. Would He look upon the denomination or would He look upon the Hearts of Man and those whom Follow Him in His word? Or would he say well lets put the Baptists over here and the Luthrens over here and the non over here. Jesus came to save the souls of Men.. He came that we might have life where we had death. His death on the Cross was a one time event that has changed the heart of Many a man and woman and Child. THese changed Hearts that have been circumsized by Him are the Ones that He will choose.. So how can we put denomination above What Christ has Done for us.. This is what I ask?

 

[Benedicta00]

Catholics I don't know

just one. we have different rites but we are one Church.

 

[Myriah]

all being based on the bible but yet when associate pastor Bob disagrees with lead pastor Joe, he takes his bible with him and goes down the street and opens his own church based on the bible thus creating yet another division.

As far as scandal go- non denominational independent churches have scandal too that are swept under the rug, you just don't hear about them that's all.

That's because they are dealt with appropriately within the church.

However, if it's a high profile TV person/minister, that will get publicized.

Yet, what I said above, still remains to be the truth.

If Pastor Joe starts a new church, it is still based upon the Bible as non-denominationals are sola scriptura, not a Jim Jones like thing. Anyone can start a church but it's what the people get out of the message and the Word that makes it successful (some people are better speakers than others, etc), and Jesus never had a church building. He made us His temple so we could be anywhere and everywhere with HIM.

Yet still, what I am trying to say is we are called non-denominational because we don't see ourselves as protesting anything. If we were protesting some important Biblical truth, that would be different. But, we use the Bible and teach the Bible.

Come and visit and see for yourselves what Word is taught there. It's strictly Biblical. So, if you've never been, you just might be bearing false witness. Something to consider there.

 

[IamAdopted]

all being based on the bible but yet when associate pastor Bob disagrees with lead pastor Joe, he takes his bible with him and goes down the street and opens his own church based on the bible thus creating yet another division.

As far as scandal go- non denominational independent churches have scandal too that are swept under the rug, you just don't hear about them that's all.

That is okay if Pastor Bob wants to take His bible and preach the word else where.. And if Joe wants to stay there and preach the word there thats okay. Maybe God in all of His sovereignty needed this to be done to reach others with the Gospel?

 

[Benedicta00]

That is okay if Pastor Bob wants to take His bible and preach the word else where.. And if Joe wants to stay there and preach the word there thats okay. Maybe God in all of His sovereignty needed this to be done to reach others with the Gospel?

Even if they don't agree? God wants different interpretation being preached? he wants independence and division?

 

[Myriah]

Even if they don't agree? God wants different interpretation being preached? he wants independence and division?

Well that is a pretty far fetched type of hypothetical question. As I have stated, I've never heard a protestant church veer off the word of God, nor the Gospel.

Oh anyhow, back on topic......................................

 

[IamAdopted]

Even if they don't agree? God wants different interpretation being preached? he wants independence and division?

Depends on what they disagree about.. The basics or the nit pick like what some can wear and not wear and so on and so forth...

 

[Benedicta00]

That's because they are dealt with appropriately within the church.

However, if it's a high profile TV person/minister, that will get publicized.

Yet, what I said above, still remains to be the truth.

If Pastor Joe starts a new church, it is still based upon the Bible as non-denominational are sola scriptura, not a Jim Jones like thing. Anyone can start a church but it's what the people get out of the message and the Word that makes it successful (some people are better speakers than others, etc), and Jesus never had a church building. He made us His temple so we could be anywhere and everywhere with HIM.

Yet still, what I am trying to say is we are called non-denominational because we don't see ourselves as protesting anything. If we were protesting some important Biblical truth, that would be different. But, we use the Bible and teach the Bible.

Come and visit and see for yourselves what Word is taught there. It's strictly Biblical. So, if you've never been, you just might be bearing false witness. Something to consider there.

I could invite you to do the same- go to Holy Mass anywhere and you will see the bible is read and preached at every Mass daily.

But you would claim that Catholics are not bible based...

Everyone has their opinion on what is biblical and what is not. That's the point. There are as many bible only Churches as there are bibles out there.


Ad not all scandals are dealt with correctly. I know some personal cases where pastor do horrible things and he he goes unpunished because the congregation handles it.

It's usually all hush hush just as it is in any larger denomination. The dealing with is usually a promise to never do it again.

 

[Benedicta00]

Well that is a pretty far fetched type of hypothetical question. As I have stated, I've never heard a protestant church veer off the word of God, nor the Gospel.

Oh anyhow, back on topic......................................

what about the liberal Christians? you go into the sub forum here and.. they're pretty bible based too, so they say...

saying you are bible based don't make it so. point is, anyone can open a bible only church and that is what we consider a denomination. They are independent- self run, and they teach what they feel is bible based. That makes them a denomination.

 

[Benedicta00]

Depends on what they disagree about.. The basics or the nit pick like what some can wear and not wear and so on and so forth...

Did you know that Martin Luther King Jr. disbelieved in the Trinity as we understand it to be?

I'm not picking on him but trying to point out- they're are all kinds of 'bible based' independent churches out there who preach what 'they think' rather than what the bible says.

 

[IamAdopted]

I could invite you to do the same- go to Holy Mass anywhere and you will see the bible is read and preached at every Mass daily.

But you would claim that Catholics are not bible based...

Everyone has their opinion on what is biblical and what is not. That's the point. There are as many bible only Churches as there are bibles out there.


Ad not all scandals are dealt with correctly. I know some personal cases where pastor do horrible things and he he goes unpunished because the congregation handles it.

It's usually all hush hush just as it is in any larger denomination. The dealing with is usually a promise to never do it again.

Aye and this does not happen in the Catholic church? Don't throw stones in glass houses here.. I cannot condone the sin of any man.. For sin is sin..

 

[IamAdopted]

Jesus tells us we will know His true followers by their fruit.. The fruit of the Holy Spirit..

 

[IamAdopted]

what about the liberal Christians? you go into the sub forum here and.. they're pretty bible based too, so they say...

saying you are bible based don't make it so. point is, anyone can open a bible only church and that is what we consider a denomination. They are independent- self run, and they teach what they feel is bible based. That makes them a denomination.

well that is okay for you to believe that..