Is Mary a source of Holiness?

[vrunca]

Done, Sister.

Thank you!!

 

[Benedicta00]

I ask you again. Can you show ANY one of MY posts where I have said you worship Mary? I just made the statement, I do NOT think more highly of her than I ought, or scripture teaches. She is blessed. Yes. BUT....that is it. Nothing more.

I can't really recall if you have... but others have insinuated that I do but I may not realize that I do...

 

[HisBelovedMelody]

Well,I am not going to tell you you do, if you are telling me you aren't. That is cool.

On that note, I bid you all a good night. I have a massive headache and I am hurting with my shoulder. I am looking forward to worshipping God tomorrow in church...be blessed everyone...Good night.

 

[Benedicta00]

People seem to forget Joseph. He could've said no too!

No, we totally honor him too. In fact he is the highest Saint in heaven next to Mary.

"t" Tradition says that when Christ opened the gates of heaven, he lead St Joesph in first with special honers.

We believe next to Mary, he is the most powerful saint to have pray for you.

 

[PassthePeace1]

Well,I am not going to tell you you do, if you are telling me you aren't. That is cool.

On that note, I bid you all a good night. I have a massive headache and I am hurting with my shoulder. I am looking forward to worshipping God tomorrow in church...be blessed everyone...Good night.

Nite...Get well soon.

Peace be with you...Pam

 

[HisBelovedMelody]

Nite...Get well soon.

Peace be with you...Pam

Thanks!! Bless you all!

 

[Benedicta00]

No, he couldn't..he was an old man just there to watch out for Mary. Come on, you should know this. They weren't married...just 'betrothed'...IF Jospeh had other kids from some previous marriage..I wonder why they didn't go to the census with him and help him and Mary along. I mean, come on...honor the mother/father thing. She is 9 months pregnant, making a grueling trip...and his kids didn't respect her enough to go and help the 'old' man out and Mary? Just does NOT make sense. Any depiction I have seen of Joseph, he was young...I do say this tongue in cheek. Some of this stuff is just so ridiculous.

if he was as old as we all think he was, then it's very possible he could not have been able to have relations with Mary- if you know what i mean... was no Viagra in those days.

 

[MaideninWaiting]

Romans 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God

Quote:

Originally Posted by MaideninWaiting
No, the moderator is merely reminding people to respond with love.
In Christ,
Bridgette

And I admire your gentle spirit.


We all (the rest of us here) should shape up a bit lol.


Note to self:

2 Timothy 2:23-25
23 But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes. 24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient
25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves


Nice to know you,
sunlover

Nice to know you too! I admire your gentle spirit as well.Have a good night.


In Christ,
Bridgette

 

[Myriah]

You need to go back and re read the exchange.

he said he has seen some ppl worship Mary... I said that I have never seen that, extreme devotion maybe but not worship...

he came back and said "a whisper away perhaps" from worship...

again, I asked how? In what way is someone just a whisper away? You either worship something or someone or you don't.

How can anyone almost worship something? you either worship it or you don't...

I have never personally seen any Catholic worship Mary- I have see extreme devotion to her shown, but never worship... I don't think it's a possibility to almost worship, you either will take her for God or you won't- I have never seen any almost take her for god, never see anyone take her for god, i have never seen anyone worship her as if she was...

That is what I meant.

Whew! I was waiting a long time for an explanation last night, but had to go to bed due to a cold.

so do most ppl but IAA said something but must have edited because it isn't there... but she did say that she does not honor the birth of Jesus, just his death... which is why I asked if she celebrated Christmas.

I haven't read all the rest of this thread yet, but I know the post you are talking about. I also know what IAA meant when she wrote that... and I do think she was eluding to the scriptures that say "we are to teach Christ crucified"... no where does it say we are teach about the birth.

It took a very strong, grown up man to carry that cross.

Anyhow, just thought I'd point that out to you in case you didn't know the scriptures regarding the purpose is to teach Christ crucified. I am sure that is what IAA meant.

As far as Christmas, it's nice, but it's still not even Christ's real date of birth. So, for me, it's just a remembrance day of the birth, but a baby cannot save anyone. That baby grew up and became Savior of the World!!!!!!!!!!!

And I see Mary no more special than Abraham for one example, who was pretty awesome himself!!!!!!!!!! So were the Apostles, etc.

 

[HisBelovedMelody]

if he was as old as we all think he was, then it's very possible he could not have been able to have relations with Mary- if you know what i mean... was no Viagra in those days.

point being, only 'tradition' tells you he was old. I really don't think so. I think he was young. BUT the point is, some traditions are just men 'thinking'. We have no proof either way.

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

We choose to respect and love instead of tear apart and demean and disrespect the Mother of God.

I think you may well be misinterpreting and incorrectly evaluating most of the Protestants here.


As a Protestant, I honor, esteem, revere, adore, and in a sense worship Mary - not only for her great faith, her being great among the saints, her being a part of the Holy Family, but above all for being the Mother of God.


But that does NOT mean that I accept as dogma the Immaculate Conception or the Assumption or the Perpetual Virginity of Mary or Coredemptrix or the Mediator of all Graces. Like most Protestants, I don't deny them - I just don't accept them as dogma. Some Lutherans accept some of these (the Perpetual Virginity of Mary for example) as an article of personal faith, a pious opinion of sorts, but it's not dogma that Lutherans are required to believe or declared a heretic if they don't. It's considered unnormed but ancient Tradition.


IF these things are true, they MIGHT honor her (I'm not so sure), and IF these things are false they dishonor Our Blessed Lady, offend and hurt her - and therefore her Son.


Therefore, to ME, it's not moot but critical if these things are true. My interest in whether these things are true is NOT because I dishonor her but because I honor her - and desire to not offend or hurt her (and her Son!) with lies, however well meaning. It's critical to know if these dogmas of the Catholic denomination are true because we're not talking about how many days God took to create the world, we're not talking about St. Peter's wife, we're talking about St. Mary!!!!!!!!!!!



My $0.01


Pax!


- Josiah



.

 

[Axion]

I think the problem is with those who want to pick and choose between the historic teachings of the Christian Church, following only those bits that please them and their companions and denigrate all the rest.

This has led to the situation of thousands of protestant denomnations all teaching different things, which they claim are true through their personal interpretation of certain verses.

This leads to nothing but confusion

 

[HisBelovedMelody]

I think the problem is with those who want to pick and choose between the historic teachings of the Christian Church, following only those bits that please them and their companions and denigrate all the rest.

This has led to the situation of thousands of protestant denomnations all teaching different things, which they claim are true through their personal interpretation of certain verses.

This leads to nothing but confusion

ya know, I keep hearing of all these thousands of protestant denominations...could you name a few thousand of them for me?? I mean come on...there are NOT 30+thousand denominations....

 

[Uphill Battle]

ya know, I keep hearing of all these thousands of protestant denominations...could you name a few thousand of them for me?? I mean come on...there are NOT 30+thousand denominations....

every time a churh has a different name, it's claimed by RCC to be a different denomination.

So, something like a Mercy Baptist church and Grace Baptist church would be considered different denoms, despite being pretty much the same thing in a different area.

I don't think the beliefs of each "denomination" are examined at all.

 

[Uphill Battle]

ya know, I keep hearing of all these thousands of protestant denominations...could you name a few thousand of them for me?? I mean come on...there are NOT 30+thousand denominations....

every time a churh has a different name, it's claimed by RCC to be a different denomination.

So, something like a Mercy Baptist church and Grace Baptist church would be considered different denoms, despite being pretty much the same thing in a different area.

I don't think the beliefs of each "denomination" are examined at all.

 

[vrunca]

I think you may well be misinterpreting and incorrectly evaluating most of the Protestants here.

Let me try to fix this then...

As a Protestant, I honor, esteem, revere, adore, and in a sense worship Mary - not only for her great faith, her being great among the saints, her being a part of the Holy Family, but above all for being the Mother of God.

I live in a small rural community surrounded by many faiths and because it is small, I know just about everyone. Of course the Catholics I know do have a different regard for the Blessed Mother as accepting certain things as Dogma. The Non-Catholics that I know also only show respect, honor, esteem... I've never seeen such blatent disrespect for anyone, let alone the Mother of God, until I have come in here... but, and this is very important, so I am going to say it loudly...ONLY BY A VERY FEW!!!...most people in here are respectful to Jesus, to each other and to each others beliefs not to be disrespectful about Jesus' mom.

But that does NOT mean that I accept as dogma the Immaculate Conception or the Assumption or the Perpetual Virginity of Mary or Coredemptrix or the Mediator of all Graces. Like most Protestants, I don't deny them - I just don't accept them as dogma. Some Lutherans accept some of these (the Perpetual Virginity of Mary for example) as an article of personal faith, a pious opinion of sorts, but it's not dogma that Lutherans are required to believe or declared a heretic if they don't. It's considered unnormed but ancient Tradition.

That's perfectly fine, I as a Catholic can say that you are no less a Christian because of this...or you are not less of a Christian than a Catholic who does. And I also know that there are a few Catholics that will say things like that, but they are wrong to say that. No one knows what is in your heart but you and God!

IF these things are true, they MIGHT honor her (I'm not so sure), and IF these things are false they dishonor Our Blessed Lady, offend and hurt her - and therefore her Son.

True. I know in my heart and soul that these are true, so by the few people who do tear up the Blessed Mother and disrespect her, it is very hurtful. And by the way, I for one completely respect those that are continually searching for truth. It is wrong in my eyes to just jump into a belief because someone else claims it to be true....search out the facts and pray, pray, pray!!

Therefore, to ME, it's not moot but critical if these things are true. My interest in whether these things are true is NOT because I dishonor her but because I honor her - and desire to not offend or hurt her (and her Son!) with lies, however well meaning. It's critical to know if these dogmas of the Catholic denomination are true because we're not talking about how many days God took to create the world, we're not talking about St. Peter's wife, we're talking about St. Mary!!!!!!!!!!!

And again this is how I see most people who are Non-Catholic look at the Blessed Virgin Mother. This is huge!!

But, let's just say for a moment that their is no perpetual virginity, no Queen of Heaven, no Immaculate Conception, or Assumption, or Mediatrix... Mary is still the Mother of Jesus, which is due a tremendous amount of respect, she did say yes. Would people talk the same way about their own mothers they way some

of the people mostly around here talk about Jesus' mom?

Most everyone here are very respectful about the Blessed Mother, but some are not and they are loud and hurtful about it. I just pray that all will just keep in mind that they are talking about the Mother of Jesus.

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

I think the problem is with those who want to pick and choose between the historic teachings of the Christian Church, following only those bits that please them and their companions and denigrate all the rest.

I think that blindly accepting whatever a teacher says because the self-same teacher self-claims to alone be the sole individual authority, the sole individual interpreter of Scripture and anything else he considers to be equally authoritative, the sole individual arbiter for faith and practice - including his own, and predeclares that he alone is infallible and thus unaccountable for all the above is a dangerous epistemology. A quick look at a few religious groups we'd both renounce should make that obvious.


Frankly, with no particular teacher or denomination in mind, I can think of nothing a false teacher (or the Devil himself) would appreciate more than to b accepted as infallible and thus unaccountable, unquestioned. The Bible warns us - repeatedly and boldly - of false prophets, false teachers, antichrists, those that would lead many astray, all that suggests accountability to ME. The Bible commands us to "test the spirts" to see if they are true. Jesus praised the Ephesian Christians for "testing" the claims of some among them and finding them to be FALSE - He praised them for questioning their claims. If a teacher insists that he alone is the sole individual authority, interpreter and arbiter - infallible and unaccountable in all of that - then there is no accountability, no way to "test" that teacher, whether that teacher be a person, congregation or denomination. Whether that teacher be Pope Benedict or Jerry Kieschnick (the head of my denomination) or Joseph Smith; whether it be the Catholic denomination or the Methodist denomination or the JW denomination. Do you understand my perspective here? Can you see this from the Protestant perspective? Can you see the dangers we see? Can you appreciate our emphasis on accountability?


Now, I think we need a balance here - and GREAT care. On the one hand, skepticism is fundamentally antireligion and if unbridled, can only destroy. We must be careful not to throw the proverbial baby out with the bathwater (I fault some of my Protestant brothers and sisters in this regard). Protestants must not fall into the same individual and unaccountable position we see in Catholicism (and yes, that happens - how often we see the speck in the other guy's eye and not the log in our own - and I mean that to ALL Christians, including me). On the other hand, how can we question Joseph Smith if we are unwilling to question our own religious teachers? How will our Mormon friends discover the errors there if they do what the RCC insists upon - accepting their denomination as infallible and thus unaccountable, using the Rule of the denomination's own teachings for the evaluation of the denomination's own teachings as arbitrated by the denomination's own leaders? What's good for the goose is good for the gander. No one said it's easy, but I reject both extremes: Blind unquestioning and unaccountability on one hand, unbrideled skepticism and individualism on the other. I reject self-claims of infallibility and unaccountability and instead embrace humility and community. It's one reason why I'm conservative/traditional "first wave" Protestant.



Thank you.


Sorry for the diversion from the topic.


Pax!


- Josiah

 

[Benedicta00]

every time a churh has a different name, it's claimed by RCC to be a different denomination.

So, something like a Mercy Baptist church and Grace Baptist church would be considered different denoms, despite being pretty much the same thing in a different area.

I don't think the beliefs of each "denomination" are examined at all.

Every 'bible only' or 'non denominational' church that is independent and self run is considered a denomination and there are thousands of those world wide.

 

[Myriah]

[/size]

Let me try to fix this then...





I live in a small rural community surrounded by many faiths and because it is small, I know just about everyone. Of course the Catholics I know do have a different regard for the Blessed Mother as accepting certain things as Dogma. The Non-Catholics that I know also only show respect, honor, esteem... I've never seeen such blatent disrespect for anyone, let alone the Mother of God, until I have come in here... but, and this is very important, so I am going to say it loudly...ONLY BY A VERY FEW!!!...most people in here are respectful to Jesus, to each other and to each others beliefs not to be disrespectful about Jesus' mom.



That's perfectly fine, I as a Catholic can say that you are no less a Christian because of this...or you are not less of a Christian than a Catholic who does. And I also know that there are a few Catholics that will say things like that, but they are wrong to say that. No one knows what is in your heart but you and God!





True. I know in my heart and soul that these are true, so by the few people who do tear up the Blessed Mother and disrespect her, it is very hurtful. And by the way, I for one completely respect those that are continually searching for truth. It is wrong in my eyes to just jump into a belief because someone else claims it to be true....search out the facts and pray, pray, pray!!




And again this is how I see most people who are Non-Catholic look at the Blessed Virgin Mother. This is huge!!

But, let's just say for a moment that their is no perpetual virginity, no Queen of Heaven, no Immaculate Conception, or Assumption, or Mediatrix... Mary is still the Mother of Jesus, which is due a tremendous amount of respect, she did say yes. Would people talk the same way about their own mothers they way some

of the people mostly around here talk about Jesus' mom?

Most everyone here are very respectful about the Blessed Mother, but some are not and they are loud and hurtful about it. I just pray that all will just keep in mind that they are talking about the Mother of Jesus.

We don't focus on the birth the way RCC's and Orthodox do.

I think Catholics put far to much focus on the "nativity" rather than the Gospel Message of Jesus Christ. Which does not include Mary... she is not omnipresent nor did she die for us.

She was merely a human redeemed by our Lord and Savior as she spoke "My soul doth magnify my Lord and Savior". Mary was humble. I think the RCC takes away from Mary's humility. She didn't want any glory for herself.

 

[Benedicta00]

So, something like a Mercy Baptist church and Grace Baptist church would be considered different denoms, despite being pretty much the same thing in a different area.

These are some of the baptist denominations and they all claim independence.

Baptists
Note: All Baptist associations are congregationalist affiliations for the purpose of cooperation, in which each local church is governmentally independent. See also: List of Baptist sub-denominations

Alliance of Baptists
American Baptist Association
American Baptist Churches USA
Association of Baptist Churches in Ireland
Association of Grace Baptist Churches
Association of Reformed Baptist Churches of America
Association of Regular Baptist Churches
Baptist Bible Fellowship International
Baptist Conference of the Philippines
Baptist Convention of Ontario and Quebec
Baptist Convention of Western Cuba
Baptist General Conference (formally Swedish Baptist General Conference)
Baptist General Conference of Canada
Baptist General Convention of Texas
Baptist Missionary Association of America
Baptist Union of Australia
Baptist Union of Great Britain
Baptist Union of New Zealand
Baptist Union of Scotland
Baptist Union of Western Canada
Baptist World Alliance
Bible Baptist
Canadian Baptist Ministries
Canadian Convention of Southern Baptists
Central Baptist Association
Central Canada Baptist Conference
Christian Unity Baptist Association
Colored Primitive Baptists
Conservative Baptist Association
Conservative Baptist Association of America
Conservative Baptists
Continental Baptist Churches
Convención Nacional Bautista de Mexico
Convention of Atlantic Baptist Churches
Cooperative Baptist Fellowship
Crosspoint Chinese Church of Silicon Valley
European Baptist Convention
European Baptist Federation
Evangelical Baptist Mission of South Haiti
Evangelical Free Baptist Church
Fellowship of Evangelical Baptist Churches in Canada
Free Will Baptist Church
Fundamental Baptist Fellowship of America
General Association of Baptists
General Association of General Baptists
General Association of Regular Baptist Churches
General Conference of the Evangelical Baptist Church, Inc.
General Six-Principle Baptists
Ghana Baptist Convention
Global Independent Baptist Fellowship
Grace Baptist Assembly
Independent Baptists
Independent Baptist Church of America
Independent Baptist Fellowship International
Independent Baptist Fellowship of North America
Interstate & Foreign Landmark Missionary Baptist Association
Landmark Baptist Church
Liberty Baptist Fellowship
Myanmar Baptist Convention
National Baptist Convention of America, Inc.
National Baptist Convention, USA, Inc.
National Baptist Evangelical Life and Soul Saving Assembly of the U.S.A.
National Missionary Baptist Convention of America
National Primitive Baptist Convention of the U.S.A.
New England Evangelical Baptist Fellowship
New Testament Association of Independent Baptist Churches
Nigerian Baptist Convention
North American Baptist Conference
Norwegian Baptist Union
Old Baptist Union
Old Regular Baptists
Old Time Missionary Baptists
Primitive Baptists
Progressive Baptists
Progressive National Baptist Convention
Reformed Baptists
Regular Baptist Churches, General Association of
Regular Baptists
Separate Baptists
Separate Baptists in Christ
Seventh Day Baptists
Sierra Leone Baptist Convention
Southeast Conservative Baptists
Southern Baptist Convention
Southern Baptists of Texas
Sovereign Grace Baptists
Strict Baptists
Two-Seed-in-the-Spirit Predestinarian Baptists
Union d'Églises baptistes françaises au Canada
United American Free Will Baptist Church
United American Free Will Baptist Conference
United Baptist Convention of the Atlantic Provinces
United Baptists
United Free Will Baptist
Unregistered Baptist Fellowship
World Baptist Alliance
World Baptist Fellowship



Spiritual Baptists
Note: The Spiritual Baptist Archdiocese of New York, Inc has congregationalist affiliations for the purpose of cooperation, in which each local church is governmentally independent.

The Spiritual Baptist Archdiocese of New York, Inc.