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Birth Control

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Dannager

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I'm saddened to hear a Catholic say this. God doesn't change and neither has sin.
Fortunately, our interpretations of the Bible have changed. I'm saddened to hear a
But if you don't trust God to decide when you have offspring, it's at least consistent that you don't trust Him to provide for their needs either.
Oh, I trust God to decide when I have offspring, just like I trust God to decide when I contract the flu. That doesn't prevent me from getting vaccinated, though.
Those of you supporting contraception are falling in lock step with Planned Parenthood and the worldly view of children being a burden and not a blessing.
You'll kindly let our mouths do the talking when it comes to how we view children. You needn't insult us by putting words into our mouths. Children are a blessing to be cherished and cared for, when they can be cherished and cared for.
 
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rainbowbright

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Wow, I can't believe how much support FOR birth control there is in this thread, especially from Catholics. You say that the Bible has changed to fit our society and doesn't apply to us. Let me ask you this, when has Christianity changed? God has not changed. Birth control may be out dated for our modern times, but Christianity is also outdated. You don't have to try to read the Bible to find a reason why God is against birth control: first of all if we have something that is natural and is working perfectly (ie our reproductive organs) and it is meant for us to reproduce, then why do we play god and take nature in our own hands? We don't need to purposely break something that God intended to work.
My hat is off to you TC for defending this issue.
 
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desmalia

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You say that the Bible has changed to fit our society and doesn't apply to us.
Excuse me, but WHO here ever said this? Could you please quote whoever it was instead of generalizing?
 
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rainbowbright

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Excuse me, but WHO here ever said this? Could you please quote whoever it was instead of generalizing?
sorry I don't have time to answer you, I have to go pick my son up from preschool
 
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elsbeth

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why do we play god and take nature in our own hands?
This is always brought up regarding bc. Do we leave everything else in God's hands? I don't think so. Do we take antibiotics and other medicines? Do we get flu shots and other vaccinations? Get mammograms? X-rays? Cat scans?
When we DO have babies do we "leave it up to nature" or do we go to a doctor, take vitamins, have sonograms, have the baby in a hospital "just in case"?
If we have cancer do we have surgery and radiation treatment?
And on a lighter note do men take viagra? Why don't they leave THAT up to God?
Let's face it. We, as a society, take nature into our own hands ALL THE TIME. Why do people get so pious about this issue?
 
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catlover

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The Bible says absolutely nothing about birth control...what dictated the prohibition of birth control was/is a lack of understanding of basic biology, and a tradition that should really die out.

The thought was, sperm were little babies. If sperm didn't get to the womb little people were being killed.
Fortunately, science has proved this misinformation wrong.
 
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Lotar

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The Bible says absolutely nothing about birth control...what dictated the prohibition of birth control was/is a lack of understanding of basic biology, and a tradition that should really die out.

The thought was, sperm were little babies. If sperm didn't get to the womb little people were being killed.
Fortunately, science has proved this misinformation wrong.
Where did you ever hear that from? :D

The argument has always been that sex is meant to be both unative and procreative, and that children are a blessing from God and the physical manifestation of the union created by marriage.

Birth control deprives the act of one of its purposes, and is a rejection of God's gift of children. In one sense it is akin to bulimia as a form of gluttony.
 
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Lotar

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Christians and Jews through out history have always interpreted God's commandments concerning children and condemnation of Onan to be condemnations of contraception in general. It isn't that you can't find it in the Bible, its that you have changed your interpretation and have become blind to it.
 
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catlover

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And on a lighter note do men take viagra? Why don't they leave THAT up to God?
Let's face it. We, as a society, take nature into our own hands ALL THE TIME. Why do people get so pious about this issue?

Because it involves women. There is a notion in society that women should be slaves to their biology because we are not people.
On the other hand, the "almighty" penis should not be a slave to biology. If a man lacks the ability to maintain an erection or even get one, that should not be left up to nature. God forbid nature may inconvenience a male from feeling pleasure.
 
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catlover

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Christians and Jews through out history have always interpreted God's commandments concerning children and condemnation of Onan to be condemnations of contraception in general. It isn't that you can't find it in the Bible, its that you have changed your interpretation and have become blind to it.

If we must be that literal about Scripture I suppose when a woman's husband dies she must sleep with his brother??
 
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desmalia

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So, if your birth control fails, then what? :confused:
I can't help but wonder if this question was more of a suggestion that people who use birth control must automatically be pro-abortion.
Just because some people don't want kids, that doesn't mean they automatically support abortion or that they would have one. This might shock you, but I (the child-free freak) have actually volunteered extensively in anti-abortion charities and programs.
Your confusing "common sense" with "sinful desires."
Actually you're confusing sin with free will.
Children are a blessing
For you perhaps they are. For many people in Bible times they were. But note, no where does God command us to accept this "blessing", nor does He force them on us. Blessings are freely given and received. It is not a sin to refuse a blessing. It is a sin to go against a command. But again, there is no command in the Bible that says we are to refrain from using birth control.

Also, that's quite an eclectic combination of verses you quoted! A couple about how God sent many blessings, including offspring, livestock, health, etc. (note, no commands given! Not to mention, does that mean that all barren, sick, poor, etc. people must be cursed by God???); and then a bunch about totally unrelated commands like refraining from having homosexual sex or sex with animals, etc. I'm surprised you would venture so far out of context to try and support your argument. :eek:

With contraception, husbands tell their wives, I love you except your fertility, and you can have me except for my fertility. This is self-centered, and not self-giving, life-giving or God-honoring.
This one gave me a laugh. What does fertility have to do with love between a husband and wife?

Are you suggesting that couples who don't have kids must love each other less than people who do have kids?
 
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catlover

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Where did you ever hear that from? :D

The argument has always been that sex is meant to be both unative and procreative, and that children are a blessing from God and the physical manifestation of the union created by marriage.

Birth control deprives the act of one of its purposes, and is a rejection of God's gift of children. In one sense it is akin to bulimia as a form of gluttony.

The argument, against birth control, stems from a misunderstanding of biology.

The marriage bed was made for sex and to unify the couple.

Now, if a man and women are somehow sterile should they refrain from sex?
 
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desmalia

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I noticed this post was basically glossed over, so I'm going to post it one more time. Lots of great points here.

I refused to even consider the possibility that contraception could be wrong because it went against what I "wanted" to believe. But the bible truth was undeniable. Barrenness was never viewed as something to be valued.

of course the Bible is written from a POV that lots of children are a morally good thing and represent a blessing from God. so what? that doesn't mean that we must adopt the same attitudes. These things are not commanded of us, but rather they form the basic framework for the worldview of the ancient Hebrews. Just as God does not command me to believe that the world is flat, that the sun revolves around the earth, that slavery is a just and morally good form of economic activity, God does not command me to believe that having lots of kids is a morally good thing and that He is blessing me with them, the more the better. Nor is the flip side true, that barrenness**** or voluntary non-parenthood is an unmitigated evil.

You really need to separate the culture and history of the Bible from the commands and principles that God wishes for all people to believe in all times*(transcultural). It is not all that difficult to do, the OT was written to a pastoral people who did not use even a portion of the total biomass of their land, who did not build factories, mine the ground or shoot rockets into space. If i believed, as you apparently do, that the life style and world view of the Hebrews is commanded by God to be my lifestyle and worldview, then i would be out in the desert herding donkeys, living in tents with at least 4 wives and 12 kids. It's a package deal, don't pull the kids out of the lifestyle as binding without pulling the whole deal.

Our interpretation of Scripture is dependent on separating what God commands from what God uses in the Scripture. I do not live a nomadic lifestyle, nor am i commanded to in order to love and honor God. I am not commanded to keep slaves, to have multiple wives nor am i commanded to have as many children as i ** can have. Apply this wooden literal point-by-point hermeneutic all you want, but it is just plain bad exegesis which no one really does, and certainly no one can do very consistently. You pick out of all the elements of Hebraic nomadism, only the blessing to have lots of children as binding on Christians today. How come? because you desire to see this as a command, you want kids and you find the command in Scripture as a result. Well i'd love to marry the cute 14 year old next door and have that big burly strong guy across the street as a slave, should i apply these elements of the ancient world as well? Should i get a group of like minded people together, enslave the neighbors and rape their daughters***, and foyst the whole thing on the Old Testament commands to do these things, because i'd like it to be so?

pick and choose all you want, but don't bind our consciences with your foolish and inconsistent hobgloblin of a hermeneutic. You may think that God is telling you to have as many kids as physically possible, fine, but don't force me to as well because you have a faulty and inconsistently applied hermeneutic up your nose.

lest you think this strong, you are creating an 11th commandment and trying to bind all Christians to it, thanks but no thanks, i'd prefer God's original 10. As well as Jesus's summary of the Law as love God and love your neighbor, curiously i don't see NO CONTRACEPTION in any of this.


notes:
* it is this failure to distinguish the culture of the Hebrews from the commands of God for us, that had the missionaries in Hawaii put muu-muus on all the women to cover their naked breasts, while at the same time destroying their culture, killing them with diseases and stealing their land.
the missionaries came to do good and their children did very well indeed.

** actually my wives, but everything then was addressed to males, we don't do that anymore either, understanding that my wife has a soul as well as i do.

*** raping virgins was a time honored custom that still leaves traces in our wedding ceremonies, the best man was there to help capture the bride, to fight off her family getting her back until after the marriage was consummated and she was now damaged goods that no one wanted. why not bring back all those attitudes as well? they form the basic elements of Hebraic culture's atitude towards sex, marriage and women.

**** if my wife is infertile should i follow the Hebraic custom of buying the next door neighbor's young daughter as a slave and bedwarmer? and expect that God will bless this union with lots of kids as well? after all we have fundamentalist LDS sects in my area that believe exactly this, for the same hermeneutical reasons you propose that contraception is a morally wrong thing to do. it all stems from the same systematic error, lifestyle and cultural principles specific to the Hebrews in the Old Testament are not being commanded by God as binding on all subsequent readers of Scripture in order to be God's children in the same way as they were. We are believer's ingrafted and adopted, not natural children, not genetic descendents.
 
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Lotar

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The argument, against birth control, stems from a misunderstanding of biology.

It helps your rationalization to think so, but the real reason has always been theological. Roman and Greek medicine was more advanced than many today give it credit for, and bishops of the early Church made distictions between abortion and contraception. St. John Chrysostom (4th century), for example, gave homilies on the sin of preventing the creation of life through contraceptive practices.


The marriage bed was made for sex and to unify the couple.

That is a very low and narrow view of marriage.


Now, if a man and women are somehow sterile should they refrain from sex?


It is God who opens and closes the womb. If a couple is sterile, they can continue to have relations and a miracle may happen, as has happened many times in the past.
 
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Lotar

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It seems odd that people make comparrisons to other practices of medicine. There is a difference between that which is meant to repair what has been broken and to sustain life, and that which is meant to break what is working and prevent the formation of life.
 
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catlover

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That is a very low and narrow view of marriage.
************************************************************************************


Who had a narrow view of marriage and women was this man:

I fail to see what use woman can be to man," Augustine said, "if one excludes the function of bearing children."

That is the mind set which got us where we are today with the prohibition of birth control.
 
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Lotar

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That is a very low and narrow view of marriage.
************************************************************************************


Who had a narrow view of marriage and women was this man:

I fail to see what use woman can be to man," Augustine said, "if one excludes the function of bearing children."

That is the mind set which got us where we are today with the prohibition of birth control.
St. Augustine had zero influence on the formation of the Orthodox understanding of marriage and sexuallity.

Read St. John Chrysostom's book On Marriage and the Family Life.


The purpose of Marriage is salvation. It is the uniting of two into one, and the martyrdom of our self will to the will of the other. This first and foremost is the purpose of marriage.

Sex bonds us, tames our passions and provides us with children, the physical manifestation of the union that took place in marriage. Removing one of these purposes, is a rejection of God's gifts and an improper use of what He has given to us.
 
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icedtea

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Tough subject. On one hand, women have been giving birth without birth control for thousands of years and never felt like slaves; in fact, many women wish they could get pregnant (hopefully they are married women).

I always figured birth control was for unmarried women who wanted to bop around having sex and not have a child especially since it wouldn't have a father.
I suppose if a woman was very much against having children, she could stay single.

I always disliked kids, never babysat, wanted no where near them.
Then I married and suddenly wanted my husband's child. It was normal to want that.
Now I get to tell my son I risked my very life just to conceive him.
 
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