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Birth Control

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elsbeth

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Isn't that what birth control makes her? The woman poisons her bodies, aborts her children or has her reproductive organs sliced up so the man can get sexual gratification without the responsibility of a blessed child.

I know the above wasn't directed to me, but you are being so outrageous that I'm putting my 2cents worth in. There are MANY, MANY forms of birth control that DO NOT do any of the above. And I don't know any women who are using the bc only because the man doesn't want the child. The woman doesn't always want the child. It ISN'T always a blessing to become pregnant. In a perfect world it would be, but our world isn't perfect.

My husband and I have 2 sons. After the second was born he had a vasectomy. Yes, we would have loved more children BUT I had the second at 38 and the chance of births defects goes up dramatically with the woman's age, I was worn out physically and couldn't have sttod another pregnancy soon, AND we could not have managed financially with another pregnancy/birth and the expenses involved. It was a simple procedure for him. We have raised our sons in a loving home, and God has blessed our marriage and our family. I don't FOR A MOMENT believe that God condemns us using a vasectomy to prevent further pregnancies.

NO ONE has the right to tell others that they are wrong for using bc.
 
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Ino

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I had two misscarriages as well. What's your point? Shouldn't I have been cursed with twenty kids by now due to my lack of faith in rubbers and horse urine tablets?
Kids aren't a curse, baby.
I know a lot of people who don't believe in BC. Most of them have 9-14 kids. All of them have over 6 though.

Now, I've suffered a miscarriage, it isn't easy but maybe you're aiming your disappointment at the wrong direction?
Judging other women won't make you feel any better.
Only God can heal.
 
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desmalia

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...so the man can get sexual gratification without the responsibility of a blessed child.
It's been mentioned a few times that sex for any other reason than to make babies is supposedly for "his gratification". Very interesting...
 
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desmalia

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One more thing.
What's dangerous is birth control. Most people are totally uninformed of the side effects because they are downplayed by pharmacists and doctors.
The issue of potential side effects caused by hormonal birth control are an entirely different topic and should be moved to a new thread if you want to discuss them. This thread is about whether general use of birth control is condemned in the Bible. Let's please stay on topic. Thanks.
Edit: I realize that when the subject of hormonal b/c came up I did respond to it. I would not have done so if I'd known how out of control the subject would get. I apologize for discussing it at all.
 
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Dannager

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The woman poisons her bodies, aborts her children or has her reproductive organs sliced up so the man can get sexual gratification without the responsibility of a blessed child.
Perhaps one of the problems you're having adjusting your worldview is that you don't enjoy sex.
 
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TwinCrier

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Perhaps one of the problems you're having adjusting your worldview is that you don't enjoy sex.

Exactly. Towncrier seems to think a woman cannot enjoy sex. Maybe it makes me a bad person but I enjoy it.
I enjoy sex very much thank you. Making personal attacks against me to avoid addressing the issue will not work. I used to use the same lame tactics when I would argue the subject with Catholics. I refused to even consider the possibility that contraception could be wrong because it went against what I "wanted" to believe. But the bible truth was undeniable. Barrenness was never viewed as something to be valued. I pray you all will re-examine this issue with an open mind.
http://www.noroomforcontraception.com/Articles/Graduation-Speech-Selfish-contraception-020.htm
So yes, I enjoy sex, but I can do so without altering my body with devices, chemicals or surgery.
 
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rmwilliamsll

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I refused to even consider the possibility that contraception could be wrong because it went against what I "wanted" to believe. But the bible truth was undeniable. Barrenness was never viewed as something to be valued.

of course the Bible is written from a POV that lots of children are a morally good thing and represent a blessing from God. so what? that doesn't mean that we must adopt the same attitudes. These things are not commanded of us, but rather they form the basic framework for the worldview of the ancient Hebrews. Just as God does not command me to believe that the world is flat, that the sun revolves around the earth, that slavery is a just and morally good form of economic activity, God does not command me to believe that having lots of kids is a morally good thing and that He is blessing me with them, the more the better. Nor is the flip side true, that barrenness**** or voluntary non-parenthood is an unmitigated evil.

You really need to separate the culture and history of the Bible from the commands and principles that God wishes for all people to believe in all times*(transcultural). It is not all that difficult to do, the OT was written to a pastoral people who did not use even a portion of the total biomass of their land, who did not build factories, mine the ground or shoot rockets into space. If i believed, as you apparently do, that the life style and world view of the Hebrews is commanded by God to be my lifestyle and worldview, then i would be out in the desert herding donkeys, living in tents with at least 4 wives and 12 kids. It's a package deal, don't pull the kids out of the lifestyle as binding without pulling the whole deal.

Our interpretation of Scripture is dependent on separating what God commands from what God uses in the Scripture. I do not live a nomadic lifestyle, nor am i commanded to in order to love and honor God. I am not commanded to keep slaves, to have multiple wives nor am i commanded to have as many children as i ** can have. Apply this wooden literal point-by-point hermeneutic all you want, but it is just plain bad exegesis which no one really does, and certainly no one can do very consistently. You pick out of all the elements of Hebraic nomadism, only the blessing to have lots of children as binding on Christians today. How come? because you desire to see this as a command, you want kids and you find the command in Scripture as a result. Well i'd love to marry the cute 14 year old next door and have that big burly strong guy across the street as a slave, should i apply these elements of the ancient world as well? Should i get a group of like minded people together, enslave the neighbors and rape their daughters***, and foyst the whole thing on the Old Testament commands to do these things, because i'd like it to be so?

pick and choose all you want, but don't bind our consciences with your foolish and inconsistent hobgloblin of a hermeneutic. You may think that God is telling you to have as many kids as physically possible, fine, but don't force me to as well because you have a faulty and inconsistently applied hermeneutic up your nose.

lest you think this strong, you are creating an 11th commandment and trying to bind all Christians to it, thanks but no thanks, i'd prefer God's original 10. As well as Jesus's summary of the Law as love God and love your neighbor, curiously i don't see NO CONTRACEPTION in any of this.


notes:
* it is this failure to distinguish the culture of the Hebrews from the commands of God for us, that had the missionaries in Hawaii put muu-muus on all the women to cover their naked breasts, while at the same time destroying their culture, killing them with diseases and stealing their land.
the missionaries came to do good and their children did very well indeed.

** actually my wives, but everything then was addressed to males, we don't do that anymore either, understanding that my wife has a soul as well as i do.

*** raping virgins was a time honored custom that still leaves traces in our wedding ceremonies, the best man was there to help capture the bride, to fight off her family getting her back until after the marriage was consummated and she was now damaged goods that no one wanted. why not bring back all those attitudes as well? they form the basic elements of Hebraic culture's atitude towards sex, marriage and women.

**** if my wife is infertile should i follow the Hebraic custom of buying the next door neighbor's young daughter as a slave and bedwarmer? and expect that God will bless this union with lots of kids as well? after all we have fundamentalist LDS sects in my area that believe exactly this, for the same hermeneutical reasons you propose that contraception is a morally wrong thing to do. it all stems from the same systematic error, lifestyle and cultural principles specific to the Hebrews in the Old Testament are not being commanded by God as binding on all subsequent readers of Scripture in order to be God's children in the same way as they were. We are believer's ingrafted and adopted, not natural children, not genetic descendents.
 
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fuzzymel

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The reason I mentioned I enjoy sex is because all your posts are about the man using the woman for sex if you use contraception. It couldnt be further from the truth. I make love to my husband and there is nothing selfish about that even though we dont want a child (for a start the though that I could get pregnant would put me off wanting sex).

I have looked at your link and its just one mans opinion sorry thats just not good enough. Plus he was asking for a donation at the bottom of the page. So not only is he telling people his opinions with no biblical backup, he is begging for money.

If you find someone who is a doctor, has Biblical backup and is not begging for money I will consider the link.
 
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Chie

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I would hope people would have enough sense of responsiblity bringing children in the world with no means of taking care of them, because they feel any form of bc is against the will of God in our lives.
To my knowledge there is no evidence in the bible from God or the men he used to instruct us in our lives concerning bc.
The things he is silent on , he gives us common sense to do what is good for us. Sex is not just intended to be for making babies and populating the world.
I respect the opinions of bc , for or against, but that is what they all are is opinions not commandments from God.
 
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desmalia

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I enjoy sex very much thank you.
Good. Then we can establish that sex is not just for the "husband's gratification", and cross that silly argument off the list.
 
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TwinCrier

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The reason I mentioned I enjoy sex is because all your posts are about the man using the woman for sex if you use contraception. It couldnt be further from the truth. I make love to my husband and there is nothing selfish about that even though we dont want a child (for a start the though that I could get pregnant would put me off wanting sex).
So, if your birth control fails, then what? :confused:
I have looked at your link and its just one mans opinion sorry thats just not good enough. Plus he was asking for a donation at the bottom of the page. So not only is he telling people his opinions with no biblical backup, he is begging for money.

If you find someone who is a doctor, has Biblical backup and is not begging for money I will consider the link.
How rude! Asking for donations is not "begging for money." Certainly you don't make that comment when the offering plate is passed. Birth control costs money, are those billion dollar pharmacutical companies begging?
It's not one man's opinion, it's many peoples' opinion.
Here's a doctor:http://www.omsoul.com/pamview.php?idnum=105

I would hope people would have enough sense of responsiblity bringing children in the world with no means of taking care of them, because they feel any form of bc is against the will of God in our lives.
Psalm 37:25 I have been young, and now am old; yet have I not seen the righteous forsaken, nor his seed begging bread.
To my knowledge there is no evidence in the bible from God or the men he used to instruct us in our lives concerning bc.
The things he is silent on , he gives us common sense to do what is good for us. Sex is not just intended to be for making babies and populating the world.
I respect the opinions of bc , for or against, but that is what they all are is opinions not commandments from God.
Your confusing "common sense" with "sinful desires."
The bible is repeatedly clear:
Children are a blessing
Barreness is a curse
Exodus 23:25-26; Deut. 7:13-14 Lev.18:22-23;20:13 Lev. 21:17,20 Mal. 2:15
The bible instructs husbands to love their wives as Christ loved the Church, by giving his entire body to her and holding nothing back. With contraception, husbands tell their wives, I love you except your fertility, and you can have me except for my fertility. This is self-centered, and not self-giving, life-giving or God-honoring.
 
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elsbeth

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I've tried looking back in this thread (and it is HARD to make much sense of). Am I right that no one has really come up with anywhere that it says clearly yea or nay in the Bible about birth control? Or did I miss a post?
 
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Dannager

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With contraception, husbands tell their wives, I love you except your fertility, and you can have me except for my fertility. This is self-centered, and not self-giving, life-giving or God-honoring.
The Bible so vehemently supports childbirth because when it was written families needed to have large numbers of children to ensure that they would survive to be able to work the family trade (whether it be farming, crafting, or whatever). That isn't an issue nowadays. Families can have a single child and not have to worry about losing that child somewhere along the way. Likewise, the cost of raising a child has increased many times over, so that families with a dozen children can be driven into poverty attempting to support them. What you are supporting, TwinCrier, is an out-dated, impractical, and potentially dangerous lifestyle for the sake of your nearsighted interpretation of the Bible.
 
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tulc

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I've tried looking back in this thread (and it is HARD to make much sense of). Am I right that no one has really come up with anywhere that it says clearly yea or nay in the Bible about birth control? Or did I miss a post?

I get the impression the bible is pretty much silent on it so everyone can read into it what they want. :)
tulc(it's a lot easier that way) ;)
 
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desmalia

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I've tried looking back in this thread (and it is HARD to make much sense of). Am I right that no one has really come up with anywhere that it says clearly yea or nay in the Bible about birth control? Or did I miss a post?
You are correct.
 
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rmwilliamsll

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The Bible so vehemently supports childbirth because when it was written families needed to have large numbers of children to ensure that they would survive to be able to work the family trade (whether it be farming, crafting, or whatever). That isn't an issue nowadays. Families can have a single child and not have to worry about losing that child somewhere along the way. Likewise, the cost of raising a child has increased many times over, so that families with a dozen children can be driven into poverty attempting to support them. What you are supporting, TwinCrier, is an out-dated, impractical, and potentially dangerous lifestyle for the sake of your nearsighted interpretation of the Bible.
One of the complications of this is that the Abrahamic covenant is in terms of children and possession of the land. So that this great motif runs throughout Scripture like a melody in a song. God will reward obedience with lots of kids and possession of the Holy Land and will curse disobedience with barreness and exile.

The question becomes if this is a metaphor, as the land is a figure of heaven to come, or if the physical blessings and curses are eternal, or at least as long as there is a physical earth.

The problem comes with taking the most literal POV, that is, God's continuing covenant in Christ means possession of the land and big families as a blessing and a sign of God's favor. This is what those who argue that BC is immoral seem to point at. If you wish God to bless you with children then you morally ought to, which means open to pregnancy every time. Something like the "quiverful" movement teaches.see: http://quiverfull.com/

but if those physical blessings are tied not to the faith but to the particular expression of the faith as taught to the ancient Hebrews then the number of kids is now adiaphora or things indifferent, and controlled by reason and our social customs.

so it boils down to how you read the blessings of a large family in the OT. is it addressed to you or was it fulfilled in Christ?
 
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Chajara

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So... what happens when we need the birth control pill to offset wonky hormones that cause great pain and wailing and gnashing of teeth each month?

I've been on the pill since I was 15 and don't intend to stop until I either want a child, hit menopause, or someone comes up with a better way to fix hormonal problems (cramps, heavy bleeding, horrid PMS, bad acne, etc).
 
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TwinCrier

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I've tried looking back in this thread (and it is HARD to make much sense of). Am I right that no one has really come up with anywhere that it says clearly yea or nay in the Bible about birth control? Or did I miss a post?
Yes, you and everyone else missed that. Pay no attention to the bible verses I posted. Put spin on the whole Onan scenario. Just rely on your own sinless nature and vast intellect.
The Bible so vehemently supports childbirth because when it was written families needed to have large numbers of children to ensure that they would survive to be able to work the family trade (whether it be farming, crafting, or whatever). That isn't an issue nowadays. Families can have a single child and not have to worry about losing that child somewhere along the way. Likewise, the cost of raising a child has increased many times over, so that families with a dozen children can be driven into poverty attempting to support them. What you are supporting, TwinCrier, is an out-dated, impractical, and potentially dangerous lifestyle for the sake of your nearsighted interpretation of the Bible.
I'm saddened to hear a Catholic say this. God doesn't change and neither has sin. But if you don't trust God to decide when you have offspring, it's at least consistent that you don't trust Him to provide for their needs either.
Psalm 37:25 I have been young, and now am old; yet have I not seen the righteous forsaken, nor his seed begging bread.
Those of you supporting contraception are falling in lock step with Planned Parenthood and the worldly view of children being a burden and not a blessing.
 
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