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NonBelievers Go To Hell? Seriously...?

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flowerpower711

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Hi, I just want to start saying that this may seem like an angry post and for that I apologize ahead of time. The thing is, this is one of the biggest parts of Christiantiy that boggles my mind. Why do nonbelievers go to hell? How can you be sure that they go to hell? Is that fair?

I know a lot of people say that God or Jesus has spoken to them (people in my own family in fact), but God nor Jesus has ever done so with me. You might say, well maybe you aren't listening...maybe you aren't ready to accept Him. If Jesus wants me to convert...he can go ahead and let me know anytime. Because the thing is...I don't want to belong to a religion that promotes that kind of thinking; the belief that people who simply don't believe or are questioning the hardest and most unconcrete concept that we can ponder (the workings of the world and the "afterlife") are going to Hell. Do people deserve this for not being sure? For Jesus not being in their life? What if they practice most of his tenets: they don't steal, they don't committ adultry, they give to the poor, they are kind, they are overall what you would probably consider good people. Why do they deserve to go to Hell?

The Bible may in fact be the word of God. But how can people know? By having people tell them that if they don't follow it they will go to Hell?

Has any Christian ever thought about these things?

I am an overall good person; sure I have my faults (who doesn't?), but I care about my family and friends. I am kind. I work hard in school and jobs; I strive to be my best. I can tell you all of these things and yet you would still tell me that I am going to Hell. That makes me so sad. I have a friend, she used to be my best friend who since college has turned very Christian. She seems to take everything said in the Bible as literal. Now she won't even return my calls. I'm not a bad person, why is this happening?

I'm sorry if this entry is angry or emotional, the fact is I'm really shook up about this because especially in this country Christians are seen as good, nice, kind people. And I'm not saying that some, or even most aren't. My dad says that not all Christians believe that nonbelievers are going to Hell. Boy do I hope he is right...

Please don't consider this an attack on your religion, I'm just trying to understand where you are coming from...
 

asianangel

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Well for one thing I'm really sorry that your friend doesn't return your calls...I was an athiest turned Christian but I still love my non believer friends cuz I've known them for most of my short life...so..yeh sorry about that... Christians I know ARE very nice and it's hard to make them angry.

Why are you so worried about Hell though? When I was an Athiest I just laughed when people said "oh you're going to hell for that sole reason!" cuz I was like "hell dun exist so what's to be afraid of?" But really...we aren't to judge...God is the judge but don't get too upset...I'm pretty sure they're not saying it to hurt you they're just saying what's in the Bible...it's not a deliberate thing to make people mad. I sincerely do believe in the Bible...anyway I hope you find what you're looking for :thumbsup:
 
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flowerpower711

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Of course I care if people think I am going to Hell or not! Especially my friends! If you are a Christian then I would think that you would believe that whatever the Bible said or whatever God decided (like a good person going to Hell) would be right.

People who have never came in contact with the Bible, people who never heard of Jesus, they are going to Hell? (Some may say that God will speak to them and then they will know Jesus...sorry that's really stretching it in my opinion).

The thing is, to me it seems like a pretty trivial thing to make someone burn in Hell for. And since the Bible says this is the way (right?), then most Christians must feel that this is ok, that it is right, fair.

Can anyone help me understand?
 
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asianangel

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Then I think that's God speaking to you if you feel that way. And the human perception of 'good' is not good by God's standards. We are simply NOT good enough. Violating just ONE of the 10 commandments is enough to classify you as wicked (dun shoot the messenger).

But I believe out of love and not fear (sure I tremble at God's wrath with good reason but I love Him because he is good and wiser than all of us and not just because I want to go to heaven).

It's not about Christians pointing fingers and saying "you're going to hell! you're saved! no you're wrong!". Only God is the judge but I won't lie to you. His word says all who reject his love are to be condemned. That hurts me too because I know many 'good' people who are not saved but I'm not gonna cut stuff out of the Bible just because it seems 'wrong' in my human eyes.
 
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flowerpower711

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That's not God speaking to me...that's me caring about how my friend thinks of me. Just like if I had a Muslim friend who also thought I was going to Hell. That brings up another question I have with Christianity, people seem to think obscure things are God speaking to them. That could turn out really troublesome, like if "God" tells you to hurt yourself or someone else.

I agree that human beings by human nature are flawed; no one is perfect.

How does someone decide that the Bible is right? Is it God speaking to them, is it a feeling they get, is it a leap of faith? Because honestly, when I go to a Church I feel creeped out (no offense at all). When I read the Bible I go "no, thats not right, That doesn't make sense."

I like your point about the difference between God's standards of good and human's standards of good. That's something I never really thought about. But: Is it not dangerous to accept something as right and fundamental doctrine when it gives you a bad feeling?
Why would my heart tell me that this is wrong when for other people it tells them it is right.

Starting around 6th grade I started to have a lot of questions regarding religion. I had some Christian friends, and they made me feel like I had to convert in order to be a good person. I tried; I read the Bible and I asked my friends to answer questions I had. Sooner or later though I had to give up the act...it did not feel right. I guess I shouldn't care if people think I am going to Hell because I know in my heart that I am a good person, although there are many things I need to change and work on to improve myself.

I don't know if my questions can ever be resolved, but your input has been really benefitial and I thank you for your time in responding to my questions.
 
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asianangel

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Nono don't be silly lol I'm happy to answer your questions even if I can't put it in the best words.

Well I don't mean God 'speaks' to people in a physical sense..it's hard to explain. He speaks to people in several ways...through other people AND through the Bible. The Bible really adresses ALL areas of ones life...it doesn't miss anything. If I got a problem...pray..look in the Bible for answers...and if I still can't find it..ask a pastor or Christian friend for guidance. You might think the Bible is not 'right' because as you said 'it doesn't make sense'-yet. Have you studied it in depth? The Gospel can never be mastered...being a Christian is not like a flu shot..its a journey of continually learning and growing spiritually. Even the older Christians on this board are continually discovering new things let alone a baby like me.

But: Is it not dangerous to accept something as right and fundamental doctrine when it gives you a bad feeling?
Why would my heart tell me that this is wrong when for other people it tells them it is right.

What bad feeling? What part of church creeps you out? To be honest my parents don't allow me church and I'm still battling with this problem. They know as well as I do that there is a lot of false preachers out there. I study the bible...download sermons and talk to as many Christians as possible. I look forward to going to church soon but in the meantime I'm learning as much as I can so I don't get sucked into a bad church. But it's good that you're cautious...how old are you if you don't mind me asking? And your comment about what your 'heart' tells you...dun wanna be too biblical when talking to a non-Christian but...see my signature :)

Starting around 6th grade I started to have a lot of questions regarding religion. I had some Christian friends, and they made me feel like I had to convert in order to be a good person. I tried; I read the Bible and I asked my friends to answer questions I had. Sooner or later though I had to give up the act...it did not feel right. I guess I shouldn't care if people think I am going to Hell because I know in my heart that I am a good person, although there are many things I need to change and work on to improve myself.

Well I guess if you don't feel ready to convert then noone should force you and make you feel obliged to. Because if you're not sincere then what's the point right?;) It's better not to lie to God about these things cuz he knows all! I can't force my parents to convert cuz they dun want to. There's nothing I can do but show them support and love and pray. But don't give up...keep searching...seek HARD and you'll find things. Just know that Jesus loves you :thumbsup:
 
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YourChild

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Hi, I just want to start saying that this may seem like an angry post and for that I apologize ahead of time. The thing is, this is one of the biggest parts of Christiantiy that boggles my mind. Why do nonbelievers go to hell? How can you be sure that they go to hell? Is that fair?

Nonbelievers are going to hell not because they are nonbelievers..but they are going to hell because they have sinned by transgressing God's Laws, the 10 commandments, and the penalty for breaking His Law is death.

A criminal is found guilty in the court of law. The criminal has broken the civil law and is sentenced to prison. There is a bail amount which is a debt that he owes. Unless his debts are paid, he is subject to sentencing. but if someone comes in and pays the debt for him, then he is a free man. Likewise, you are heavily in debt to God because you are in violation of His Laws.

If you think you aren't then lets find out....

Have you ever told a lie? Yes or no? if you have then what does that make you? yes you are right, it makes you a liar. Have you ever stolen anything? Yes or no? What does that make you? yes it makes you a thief! Jesus said that if you hate someone, you have already committed murder in your heart. have you ever hated anyone? yes or no? Yes you have? well guess what? In God's eye you are a murderer! We have just gone through 3 of the 10 commandments and by your own admission, you have broken all 3 commandments...you are a lying, thiefing, murderer at heart and you're going to have to face God on Judgment Day.

This debt that you owe God cannot be paid off with all the good works you do, such as feeding the homeless, helping the poor, walking an old woman across the streets, working hard at work, raising your family, loving your family...nothing you do in this lifetime is enough to pay the debt you owe God for breaking His perfect and holy Law. you have sinned against a just and holy God. the just penalty for sinners is hell.

However, someone has already paid your debt for you. Someone you have not yet known, stepped in and paid the debt in full for you so that you will be set free. Your debt was paid by Jesus Christ, who took the heat for you when He was crucified on that Cross.

By rejecting Christ, you are making a statement to God that you do not want your debt to be paid off while you are professing righteousness by your good works. good works while lacking faith in God, the Creator of the universe, is, according to the Bible, filthy rags to Him. the only righteousness there is, is the righteousness in Christ. Man may think he is righteous but that is far from the righteousness that you will find in Christ once you have come to repent of your sins and ask Him for forgiveness. you cannot please God without faith nor can you "earn" your way to Heaven by doing good works. Salvation is a Gift from God through putting your faith and trust in the Savior, Jesus Christ, and turning away from sins. unbelief is a sin as well. Unless a man lives a complete sinless life from beginning to end, then he is not under God's judgment. However, no such person exists, except for the Savior, Jesus Christ.
 
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flowerpower711

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Thanks for being so nice! I'm 20 years old, and agnostic. I have some religious people in my family; my dad is a Christian but he raised me to be able to make my own decisions regarding religion. Admittedly I have not studied the Bible in depth; honestly I don't think I've actually opened the one I own since high school.

I can't really explain the bad feelings I get in a church. I went with my dad to the Christmas service this year and seeing all the people holding candles and repeating scripture as if its the unquestionable word of God creeped me out. The Egyptians believed in their polytheistic religion, and now most people that I've encountered think that's all crazy, silly stuff. To a certain extent that's how I see Christianity, or any established religion really that believes their way is the only way.

In reference to your signature, its funny you mentioned that because I actually thought about asking you about it when I first saw it. I can tell what my heart is telling me (most of the time that is), but believing what "God" tells me is tricky. In a way I believe in the good of people more than something I don't know exists. It's the believing part that gets me. How do I know that the Bible is the true word of God? And if it is, do I agree with what is said. If the Bible said (this is just an example) kill pug puppies, I wouldn't do that because I think its wrong. Just like I think people going to Hell for not believing is wrong. Even if that is what God wants, I don't want to be associated with that.

In the end I think the believing part is what gets most nonbelievers. If you have to see a book as truth, when you have no evidence for it. And that book can be both beautiful and kind as well as hurtful and destructive. I'm not ready to throw all my cards into something that worries me and can cause a lot of hurt (along with a lot of love).

Overall I believe in most Christian beliefs, at least the spreading of love and not causing others hurt or harm. I think/hope Jesus and God love me because if they do exist I love them too. Hopefully they love me enough to accept my inability (at least at this time) to believe.
 
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asianangel

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:) It's no problem flowerpower...but YourChild has basically summarised the foundation of the court of God and his commandments quite well.

Well you mentioned evidence....
And there is a LOT of evidence to support the Bible if you're willing to look...both scientific and historical. In fact the Bible is the most supported book in the world. For example science thought the world was flat and sat on 3 tortoises :scratch: and in the Bible written over 2000 years ago said 'circle of the Earth' and 'hung upon nothing'. There are plenty of lil facts like that and that's just a simple example.

Now I'll tell you why I think Christianity is true as compared to other religions besides the supporting scientific/historical evidence. Every other religion on the face of the planet is a religion of works with the exception of true Christianity. (Works is when people believe they can earn their way to heaven by doing good deeds).

And I quote Paul Washer: "Faith is the opposite of works. Faith is also denial that God could ever be a man's debtor. Why are men glad to recieve a religion of works and will practically kill a messenger who comes to him and says "it's free, its a gift! Recieve it by faith!" Because men want to be God. Men want to be the greater. The lesser is always blessed by the greater. Every other religion says-you have blessed God, God is the one recieving from you and now GOD OWES YOU BECAUSE OF THE THINGS YOU HAVE DONE!!!"

 
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Morgen

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Going to Heaven or Hell is by our choosing. We are ultimately responsible for the ending. :(

Why not take some time to do some research and make some rightful decision... :confused:

Since God is on our side (He loves us), what can stop you from finding the true? Especially, he "promised" to open door for you whenever you seek :sorry:

John 3:16...is not that hard to understand... :sorry:

No doubt, and no "work" is involved.

God bless you ^_^
 
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revmalone

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Hi, I just want to start saying that this may seem like an angry post and for that I apologize ahead of time. The thing is, this is one of the biggest parts of Christiantiy that boggles my mind. Why do nonbelievers go to hell? How can you be sure that they go to hell? Is that fair?

I know a lot of people say that God or Jesus has spoken to them (people in my own family in fact), but God nor Jesus has ever done so with me. You might say, well maybe you aren't listening...maybe you aren't ready to accept Him. If Jesus wants me to convert...he can go ahead and let me know anytime. Because the thing is...I don't want to belong to a religion that promotes that kind of thinking; the belief that people who simply don't believe or are questioning the hardest and most unconcrete concept that we can ponder (the workings of the world and the "afterlife") are going to Hell. Do people deserve this for not being sure? For Jesus not being in their life? What if they practice most of his tenets: they don't steal, they don't committ adultry, they give to the poor, they are kind, they are overall what you would probably consider good people. Why do they deserve to go to Hell?

The Bible may in fact be the word of God. But how can people know? By having people tell them that if they don't follow it they will go to Hell?

Has any Christian ever thought about these things?

I am an overall good person; sure I have my faults (who doesn't?), but I care about my family and friends. I am kind. I work hard in school and jobs; I strive to be my best. I can tell you all of these things and yet you would still tell me that I am going to Hell. That makes me so sad. I have a friend, she used to be my best friend who since college has turned very Christian. She seems to take everything said in the Bible as literal. Now she won't even return my calls. I'm not a bad person, why is this happening?

I'm sorry if this entry is angry or emotional, the fact is I'm really shook up about this because especially in this country Christians are seen as good, nice, kind people. And I'm not saying that some, or even most aren't. My dad says that not all Christians believe that nonbelievers are going to Hell. Boy do I hope he is right...

Please don't consider this an attack on your religion, I'm just trying to understand where you are coming from...
Greetings
Hey, I had a question asked a long time back about this so I put my answer explaining it on here so you could read it, I really hope it help you to re-write your question after you have read this, I hope we can help you here and With the help of Jesus we will try to do our best for you, ok. Here it is.

The Question was? "describe how Gods justice is at work when he punishes a person for all eternity in hell for a temporal crime".

There are a few things to understand to know the answer to that kind of question. I can shed some light on the answer, but be open minded since all this is new for you.

There use to be 3 sections to the underworld area. The first we call hell which is call hades.
The second is the bottomless pit found in (Revelation 9:2) The bottomless pit is were the worst and most evil angels that followed satan out of heaven are Chained until the Great Judgement Day (Jude 1:6)
The third was paradise, this was the temporary place(heaven) that the rightious souls who had faith in God and those who were under that years blood scarifice went to after there life on earth was done, this place was taking away when Jesus arose from the dead and took them all to heaven were they are to this day. Ephesians 4:8-10. Those who were taken to heaven with Christ are all the old testament people in the paradise.
So Now there are only two place there only one gets bigger as I will explain. Just as our universe is always expanding and has no limits God said " hell hath enlarged herself, and opened her mouth without measure:(Isaiah 5:14). Hell has expanded since paradise was taken out and it has no limits, if needed it could hold the whole world.
So lets review, the 3 places of the underworld, paradise-gone now, the bottomless pit-those angels that to wicked to be free, Hell(hades) is the place that the souls of the lost go until the final day of Judgement. Now that you understand what was down there, it will help you see what Hell is.
Hell (hades) is not the place the lost is judged that place would be known as Gehenna
Does a guy that breaks the Law go straight to prison right after being arrested, NO this would be a unjust action and this is not how it works he goes first to a holding cell at the local jail to await all charges to be file against him. Just like hell(hades), all are equal, no crime greater then another until Judgement day, all await there day in court. This is what Hell is being used for.

Hell is not the final place that the lost soul will stay, it is were the soul is held after the body dies because the body goes back to the dust. Everyone who dies lost will receives the same torments as all in this temporary place, there is not different degrees personal punishment in hell( hades) right now because it is just the Holding place not the final place.
There is a Day God has set aside to judge every evil work and to pass down the exact required payment that must be paid. This is were God will bring justice to each and every crime and sin ever commited.Right now during this period of time, we call the age of Grace the only sin God holds a person accountable for right now is rejecting the Sacrifice of Jesus Christ and that's it. He see's every sin we do as being done thru ignorance, this allows him to have complete forgivness on every man, women, boy and girl.No matter what sins you ever did God knows you done them not understanding that they were wrong. Everytime we have done something we knew it was wrong when we were doing it, every person has a conscience, when we lie, we know it's wrong then, when a person cusses, and so on, we are all with this knowledge of right and wrong.
When a person dies lost there soul will stay in the holding cell called Hell, it's only until Gods final day of Judgement.(Rev 20:11) At this Judgement every evil, every secret, every deed, every thought, every cuss word, is added to each account. The Bible calls this Judgement, the Great White Throne judgement. When the lost appear at this judgement they will receive there bodies but this time there bodies that are made to be able to handle the terrible judgement that will be given.
Christians will have a glorified body to face there judgement, but they receive rewards at there judgement not punishment. The lost will have a soul and body to be cast in alive taking every price and tourment received in judgement according to there evil works, cast into the Lake of Fire.
Just think of how hot it could be if a person get's 1 degree of fire per offence. How many cuss words have you said, then add up the dirty thoughts, the jokes, all the people that have been affected by every bad thing you did to them, what about for every lie you have told, It makes me tremble to think of the received punishments.
Everything we do is recorded into our minds, your eyes are recording lens God records your whole life from, some who have died explain there whole life flashed before there eyes, your whole life is recorded inside your mind.Man has created great machines some can even trace every phone conversation, great records are stored on a small computer and at the push of a button, entire history of a person can be traced.
Each person as they walk through this life they are recording there own actions for a witness on that day of judgement. If a person denies they did a act that there accused of God will show it to you, he can show the exact second you did it live right before your own eyes and there will be no excuse for you to use, every small thing you have done, on that day it will be shown to all the hosts of heaven and many are going to add on to there punishment that day, because of all the lies they are going to tell him, he will be just because there will not be one thing left in the universe unpunished after this great judgement day. .
Jesus said in Matthew 12:36-37;" I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment. For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned".
After this great judgement day trial is over, all there will be cast into the Eternal prison known as The Lake of Fire.(Revelation 20:15)

Who is the Judge on that day? It will be none other then Jesus Christ Himself.
Jesus said so in John 5:22;" For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:"
Jesus made the way to be saved and because he is the salvation and the only way, God commited all judgement to him. He knows all who are his and he knows all who are not his. There will be no mistakes on the Day he judges.
John 10:24-30
24. Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.
25. Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
26. But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28. And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
30. I and my Father are one.
Being saved is free, all we have to do is ask to be forgiven, no works to be done to get it, it's all paid for and it is Gods free gift. How could God make it anymore simple for us to receive. If anyone searched all the rest of the worlds religions they will have to do this kind of work or that work to go into there place, but in every other religion there is never no assurance, no promises that you will go this way, the truth is you don't, without Jesus you pay your own crimes and you'll go to the holding cells of hades. That is why Jesus told us nobody can come to heaven except by him.We have the sin infection in our blood, he didn't. That why it took him.
If I owned a house and I told everybody who wants to enter it they must come thru the front door only or be arrested . Suppose then people said he's not serious and started trying to come through my roof or window, would I be wrong to called the law, no.
Is it my fault they went to jail, NO! Why not? I tried to help let them in, I warned them theres one way in. I made the way to get in by invitation, and it wouldn't cost them one thing , but by choosing there own way to get in , they lost it all, but it all came down to there choice on how to get in. This is the same way God has done for all of man kind, he made salvation to be free and every person gets it the same way, asking Jesus.He has told us to come in thru the door and the only door is Jesus, read it.
John 10:1 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.
Is God just in what he is doing, yes when we see the big picture there is nothing left for him to do, it's up to us to decide to get in, his way or pay our own way, which will you choose.
Matthew 7:13-14 ; Jesus said , Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it
John 14:6 6. Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
don't miss your invitation.
Rev Malone
 
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flowerpower711

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However, someone has already paid your debt for you. Someone you have not yet known, stepped in and paid the debt in full for you so that you will be set freed. Your debt was paid by Jesus Christ, who took the heat for you when He was crucified on that Cross.

By rejecting Christ, you are making a statement to God that you do not want your debt to be paid off while you are professing righteousness by your good works. good works while lacking faith in God is, according to the Bible, filthy rags to Him. the only righteousness there is, is the righteousness in Christ. Man may think he is righteous but that is far from the righteousness that you will find in Christ once you have come to repent of your sins and ask Him for forgiveness. you cannot please God without faith nor can you "earn" your way to Heaven by doing good works. Salvation is a Gift from God through putting your faith and trust in the Savior, Jesus Christ, and turning away from sins. unbelief is a sin as well. Unless a man lives a complete sinless life from beginning to end, then he is not under God's judgment. However, no such person exists, except for the Savior, Jesus Christ.

See even if that were true, in my mind it doesn't seem right. Even if people are born with sin, that doesn't justify Hell (obviously we can't control what we are born with). A little kid who steals a cookie and doesn't repent to God or doesn't believe in Jesus does not justify him going to Hell (if there is one).

Why do I need to know or believe that Jesus Christ is my savior in order to go to Heaven? How do I know that he wasn't this nice crazy guy who thought he was the son of God? Because the Bible tells me so? I need something more than a book and a group of people telling me I'm going to Hell if I don't follow their set of rules in order to believe.

You might say that you need to just accept whatever God says in the Bible whether you understand it or agree with it or not. But I can't do that. I can't follow and worship something that is so trivial; something that does not let you question or seek other answers. We were born with flaws but we were also born with the ability to question and to think through things.

Even though I was born with flaws like every other human, I try and counter these everyday. I try to be the best I can and improve myself. Even with all of your scripture, I don't think I deserve Hell. Just like the African who has never heard of Jesus Christ, or the kid whose mother just died and is angry at the world these people do not deserve Hell. They deserve love from other people, because thats the only sure thing we have on earth - each other.
 
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rocklife

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Thanks for being so nice! I'm 20 years old, and agnostic. I have some religious people in my family; my dad is a Christian but he raised me to be able to make my own decisions regarding religion. Admittedly I have not studied the Bible in depth; honestly I don't think I've actually opened the one I own since high school.

I can't really explain the bad feelings I get in a church. I went with my dad to the Christmas service this year and seeing all the people holding candles and repeating scripture as if its the unquestionable word of God creeped me out. The Egyptians believed in their polytheistic religion, and now most people that I've encountered think that's all crazy, silly stuff. To a certain extent that's how I see Christianity, or any established religion really that believes their way is the only way.
It's good and healthy to be careful about churchgoers and churches, flowerpower, that is even a New Testament warning. Jesus often was angry with the religious leaders in His time too, and tells us in the bible to continue to be careful of them, because so many of them are not practicing what they preach, or do it for selfish reasons like money and power and ego. There is a lot of bad things going on in churches, we see it whenever a preacher is arrested for criminally immoral things. The smaller sins are so often ignored, which is not a New Testament teaching either. God knows the hearts, and Jesus says many will say to Him on Judgment Day, "Lord, Lord we did wonderful things" and He will say "get away from me, evildoers" Matthew 7:21 paraphrase

In reference to your signature, its funny you mentioned that because I actually thought about asking you about it when I first saw it. I can tell what my heart is telling me (most of the time that is), but believing what "God" tells me is tricky. In a way I believe in the good of people more than something I don't know exists. It's the believing part that gets me. How do I know that the Bible is the true word of God? And if it is, do I agree with what is said. If the Bible said (this is just an example) kill pug puppies, I wouldn't do that because I think its wrong.
there are some hard things in the Old Testament that this reminds me of. I just remember that God is good and just, and I cannot judge Him. He knows what and why such things have to be. I can imagine societies worse than prisons, but I have been just as evil. I am thankful for His mercy and patience. I don't understand all His ways, but we can't blame evil on Him, He is the only good one, all the rest is evil. this is hard to think about, I just have hope and faith that our Creator has His reasons and He knows why and what is going on, not me. some of these thoughts take more prayerful bible study.
Just like I think people going to Hell for not believing is wrong. Even if that is what God wants, I don't want to be associated with that.
I have been reading and studying the Bible ever since I became a christian 5 years ago. I am still young, but even still, I have seen the bible does not teach hell fires are billions and trillions of years of torturous burning people alive. That is sadistic, and not biblical. It is from misunderstanding that hell has been taught like that. I believe many of the ones preaching such a torturous God have not studied hell much, or just don't care about people. The punishment for sin is death, not torture burning for billions of years. If you would like to see a preaching about hell that is exactly how I have seen it from my own bible studies with a preacher, here is a link, Click Watch (or listen) on "Cities of Ash" http://www.amazingfacts.org/items/storacle_lessons.asp

In the end I think the believing part is what gets most nonbelievers. If you have to see a book as truth, when you have no evidence for it.
there is evidence, changed lives and clean consciences. Jesus has the power to give people hope when they are hopeless and to cleanse our conscience. I used to be terribly burdened by my evil lifestyle, I have been arrested several times, was a terrible person. Jesus changed me and took away that burden I had with depression and hatred, and gave me love and hope. No one else did that, not doctors, not sex, not drugs, not buddha, mohammed, but Jesus did with the Holy Spirit.

And that book can be both beautiful and kind as well as hurtful and destructive. I'm not ready to throw all my cards into something that worries me and can cause a lot of hurt (along with a lot of love).
Yes, the Bible is very hard reading, a lot of things are hard to understand. We need the Holy Spirit to help teach us what is going on in the Bible. Jesus offers us the Holy Spirit. God will reveal Truth to those who persistently seek Truth.

Overall I believe in most Christian beliefs, at least the spreading of love and not causing others hurt or harm. I think/hope Jesus and God love me because if they do exist I love them too. Hopefully they love me enough to accept my inability (at least at this time) to believe.
yes, those are good teachings. Jesus does offer the best assurance for those who put His words into practice and have a heart that really loves Him personally, and that is everlasting life with Him after death. That is a great offer. I hope you continue seeking Truths, and please look to Christ, and not Christians so much. People make mistakes, God can come to you Himself and teach you these things if you ask and really keep at seeking with all your heart. The new Testament has many warnings and is actually very different than a lot of churchgoers make Christianity seem, which should not be the case, but it is a sad reality. Jesus warns of goats among sheep, we can't let the bad ones keep us away from Him. If you really want to know christianity, I recommend New Testament reading prayerfully and diligently.
 
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YourChild

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See even if that were true, in my mind it doesn't seem right.

THe relationship between God and man is like Father and son/daughter. It is like the relationship between a child and his/her loving parent, only it is much more compacted with love and holiness. many times while we were young and made foolish decisions, our parents always stood beside us and constantly tried showing us a wiser and healthier choice. yet, we always found ourselves going with what we felt as "right" because we were always stubborn to sticking with our own way of thinking. in much the same way, many nonbelieving people may feel that the standards of God is not just. they feel this way because they do not realize how exceedingly sinful sin is. when they have completely let go of their self righteousness and put on the righteousness of Christ, they will see clearly how wicked and evil their old lifestyle used to be and then they will see for themselves, that in the Kingdom of God, there is no room for even 1 spec of darkness.



Even if people are born with sin, that doesn't justify Hell (obviously we can't control what we are born with).

We cannot control the fact that we are born with a sinful nature. But we can control the fact of making that decision of letting God clean us from our sins to repair and restore us so that we can walk in holiness. I was a smoker, drug addict, gambler, porn addict, hot tempered mad man for over 7+ years. I witness to the fact that God has restored me. your lifestyle may not reflect my old ways of living, but there isnt a single perfect man walking this earth and every one of us need God to restore us from our wicked, filthy, sinful ways.

Why do I need to know or believe that Jesus Christ is my savior in order to go to Heaven? How do I know that he wasn't this nice crazy guy who thought he was the son of God? Because the Bible tells me so? I need something more than a book and a group of people telling me I'm going to Hell if I don't follow their set of rules in order to believe.

What you are doing here is calling God a liar. He has provided a way for you to get to know Him...through His Word. Yet, some refuse to ever take the time to read it with the motive of getting to know him...instead, they are too busy looking for faults in Him (something you will not find). Have you honestly looked into the Bible and done some researching to find out for yourself, or are you making remarks from merely speculating what you see around you..ie. people holding candles in church? The Bible is not just some common book. It is the Word of God. It is the instruction manual for the man who seeks to live a life pleasing to Him. there are many prophecies in the Bible that has been fullfilled. there are many scientific evidence in the Bible that were shown.

I will name some...these examples are taken from the "The Biblical School of Evangelism", by Ray Comfort.

Science expresses the universe in five terms: time, space, matter, power, and motion. Genesis 1:1,2 revealed such truths to the Hebrews in 1450 B.C.: "In the beginning[time] God created [power] the heaven [space] and the earth [matter]...And the Spirit of God moved [motion] upon the face of the waters." The first thing God tells man is that He controls of all aspects of the universe.

It is also interesting to note that scientists now understand the universe is expanding or stretching out. Nine times in Scriptures we are told that God stretches the heavens like a curtain (e.g., Psalm 104:2).

At time when it was believed that the earth sat on a large animal or giant (1500 B.C.), the Bible spoke of the earth's free float in space: "He...hangs the earth upon nothing" (Job 26:7).

The prophet Isaiah also tells us that the earth is round: "It is he that sits upon the circle of the earth" (Isaiah 40:22). This is not reference to a flat disk, as some skeptics maintain, but to a sphere. Secular man discovered this 2,400 years later. At a time when science believed that the earth was flat, it was Scriptures that inspired Christopher Columbus to sail around the world.

For ages, scientists believed in a geocentric view of the universe. The difference between night and day were believed to be caused by the sun revolving around the earth. Today, we know that the earth's rotation on its axis is responsible for the sun's rising and setting. But 4,000 or more years ago, it was written, "Have you commanded the morning since your days; and caused the day spring [dawn] to know his place? ... It [the earth] is turned as clay to the seal" (Job 38:12, 14). The picture here is of a clay vessel being turned or rotated upon the potter's wheel - an accurate analogy of the earth's rotation.

Luke 17:34-36 says the Second Comming of Jesus Christ will occur while some are asleep at night and others are working at daytime activities in the field. This is another clear indication of a revolving earth, with day and night occuring at the same time.

Science has discovered that stars emit radio waves, which were received on earth as a high pitch. God mentioned this in Job 38:7: "When the morning stars sang together..."

Solomon described a "cycle" of air currents 2,000 years before scientists "discovered" them. "The wind goes toward the south, and turns about to the north; it whirls about continually, and the wind returns again according to his circuits" (Ecclesiates 1:6).

THe Bible speaks of "the fish of the sea, and whatsoever passes through the paths of the seas" (Psalm 8:8). What does the Bible mean by "paths of the seas"? Man discovered the existence of ocean currents in the 1850s, but the Bible declared the science of oceanography 2,800 years ago. Matthew Maury (1806-1873), considered the father of oceanography, noticed the expression "paths of the sea" in Psalm 8:8. "If God said there are paths in the sea," Maury stated, "I am going to find them." Maury took God at His Word and went looking for these paths. We are indebted to his discovery of the warm and cold continental currents. His book on oceanography remains a basic text on the subject and is still used in universities. Maury used the Bible as a guide to a scientific discovery; if only more would use the Bible as a guide in their personal lives.

Only in recent years has man discovered that there are mountains on the ocean floor. This was revealed in the Bible thousands of years ago. While deep in the ocean, Jonah cried, "I went down to the bottoms of the mountains..." (Jonah 2:6). The reason the Bible and true science harmonize is that they have the same author.

Genesis 3:15 reveals that a female possesses a "seed" for childbearing. This was not common knowledge until a few centuries ago. It was widely believed that only the male possessed the "seed of life" and that the woman was nothing more than a "glorified incubator."

These are just a few examples to show you that the Bible is no ordinary book but that it is the Word of God.
 
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Merlin

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Hi, I just want to start saying that this may seem like an angry post and for that I apologize ahead of time. The thing is, this is one of the biggest parts of Christiantiy that boggles my mind. Why do nonbelievers go to hell? How can you be sure that they go to hell? Is that fair?
the Bible says so.
No, it's not fair. But it is just.
I know a lot of people say that God or Jesus has spoken to them (people in my own family in fact), but God nor Jesus has ever done so with me.

Um.. yes He has. Even if you don't recognise it.
Evidence?
You are here posting.

You might say, well maybe you aren't listening...maybe you aren't ready to accept Him. If Jesus wants me to convert...he can go ahead and let me know anytime. Because the thing is...I don't want to belong to a religion that promotes that kind of thinking; the belief that people who simply don't believe or are questioning the hardest and most unconcrete concept that we can ponder (the workings of the world and the "afterlife") are going to Hell. Do people deserve this for not being sure? For Jesus not being in their life? What if they practice most of his tenets: they don't steal, they don't committ adultry, they give to the poor, they are kind, they are overall what you would probably consider good people. Why do they deserve to go to Hell?
The way to heaven is by one path. Jesus.
If you wanted to go to London, and you boarded a plane to Hong Kong, is it fair that you didn't get to London?

Shall you blame the pilot??
You can't really blame anyone else if you don't get on board.

The Bible may in fact be the word of God. But how can people know?[/quote

By its accuracy in prophecy.
By having people tell them that if they don't follow it they will go to Hell?

Why should it be a problem for someone to warn you that if you take the wrong path, you'll end up at the wrong place?

Has any Christian ever thought about these things?

Of course we have :)

I am an overall good person; sure I have my faults (who doesn't?), but I care about my family and friends. I am kind. I work hard in school and jobs; I strive to be my best. I can tell you all of these things and yet you would still tell me that I am going to Hell. That makes me so sad.

Why is it a problem for you to be told only the London bound plane goes to London?

I have a friend, she used to be my best friend who since college has turned very Christian. She seems to take everything said in the Bible as literal. Now she won't even return my calls. I'm not a bad person, why is this happening?

She is a human and has free will.
She too can do right or wrong.
 
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flowerpower711

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I have read the Bible. I read it like any other book. I haven't read it several times, like most of the books I have read.

In reference to YourChild's post on the legitimacy of the Bible, some of your evidence seems farfetched in my opinion: when the stars sang together equals radio waves being received in a high pitch? That seems to be stretching it a bit.

And I am not calling "God a liar". I'm saying I don't know what God wants or is saying. I'm not sure anyone will ever know.


Merlin, in your analogy of the plane trip to London, I understand that you and most Christians believe that Chrisitianity is the only way to get to Heaven. If it were that easy then wouldn't everybody be Christian? For a lot of people, it takes more than what is said in the Bible.

Also, just because I am posting on this does not mean God is speaking to me. I'm on here because 1. I feel like my friend has deserted me for no reason and I want her to read my posts on how I am feeling and 2. A lot of what Christianity says distrubs me. The fact that so many people believe these hurtful things is incredibly disheartening.

The only way someone can know for sure if the Bible, or any doctrine, is the word of God or right is by reading everything that has ever been written, everything that has ever been thought, even things that have never even been pondered. Only then can you really decided whether the ideas in the Bible are as prophetic or true as you say they are. Thats a pretty daunting, and impossible task.

It hurts me that people feel this way. It hurts more that my friend thinks I deserve Hell for trying to live life the best I can. Belief is just that, Belief. The fact that someone should be punished for that disgusts me.

I'll probably stop posting here. Because its not going to change how you feel, it won't change how my friend feels about me.
 
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YourChild

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In reference to YourChild's post on the legitimacy of the Bible, some of your evidence seems farfetched in my opinion: when the stars sang together equals radio waves being received in a high pitch? That seems to be stretching it a bit.

Yet you seem to be ignoring all the other real and true evidence that is in front of you..such as - the shape of the earth mentioned in the Bible, the fact that Luke said the earth is revolving, the mountains found in the ocean by Jonah, the bones of sea creatures found on mountain top which came from the flood during Noah's ark...and what about the ocean paths found by Maury and many other evidences that I can list for you...what do you do with them? you just throw them out the window and ask for other "signs and proofs". Its similar to what the Pharisees did when they saw Jesus do miracles right before their eyes. THey looked for a way to excuse themselves from submitting to the full authority of God. Instead, they slander and mocked Christ, saying that His miraculous work is not of God but is of the enemy.

Even if God poked His face out of the sky, unbelievers will make some sort of excuse to explain what is happening..this will be seen during the rapture at the ending of the earth when unbelievers will try to use some scientific explaination to explain the disappearance of millions around the world. they're going to say these people were "radioactively evaporated" or something rediculous as such.

all the evidence you need is here. the question is..are you willing to accept His Gift of Salvation?
 
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flowerpower711

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Have you read other works (or every piece of work ever created) in as much depth as the Bible in order to see if they are in fact prophetic and true?

When someone actually does that maybe I'll take their comments more seriously.

If all of the evidence I need is here, why wouldn't I accept his gift of salvation? Or perhaps, there isn't enough evidence?
 
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calidog

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whether or not the unbeliever goes to a ever burning hell is disputed even among some bible-read christians.

What IS clear to us is sin brings death:
Jesus Christ brings eternal life.

"For God had such love for the world that he gave his only Son, so that whoever has faith in him may not come to destruction but have eternal life".
 
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