can you tithe to missionaries instead of church

[Starcrystal]

I totally agree with you - I don't see the Tithe in the NT anywhere (Unless they're verses I missed).
I'll check out your link. thanks.

But we can still freely give 10% - I know alot of people who give 10% becuz it was an original amount (or guideline) given by God in the Old Test. We actually go by that ourselves... but I don't lay that onto others like they have to!

As I read the story about the woman who gave her few shekels, she actually gave all she had becuz she was so poor even tho it was so much less than the rich people were giving.

I think the NT teaches that it's all a HEART issue - God just wants us to be happy in our giving to Him.
& it's not our place to judge anyone on their amounts (it's none of my business what others give anyways).

This thread on CF has all the details:

http://www.christianforums.com/t4208906&page=2

And I agree about not judging anyone on amounts.... the problem is when pastors preach 10% 10% 10% all the time and "you'll be under a curse if you don't because Malachi says so!"

 

[Nadiine]

This thread on CF has all the details:

http://www.christianforums.com/t4208906&page=2

And I agree about not judging anyone on amounts.... the problem is when pastors preach 10% 10% 10% all the time and "you'll be under a curse if you don't because Malachi says so!"

Yep exactly - I agree w you even tho I'm in favor of tithing personally - I think it is a good guideline since God asked it of His people.

You know, John Hagee is one of my favorite tv pastors (um, not that i have alot i even listen to! lol). I love his non compromising stance, and straightforward teachings.

But he does preach that if you aren't tithing, you're stealing from God.
He also preaches that if you're married & don't decide to have children that you're doing wrong.

Well, I don't have kids nor do I want any. But I don't take that personally becuz it's just HIS view of it. I don't divide from Christians on non essential issues that don't alter our salvation any. (where Christianity isn't in question).

I have to practice what I preach - IF WE COMPLAIN ABOUT DIVISIONS IN CHRISTIANITY, THEN WE CAN'T DIVIDE WITH THOSE WE DISAGREE WITH EITHER.
you know?

Change starts with US. 1 Christian at a time.
I disagree with John Hagee in his view children & tithing, YET HE'S ONE OF MY FAVORITE TEACHERS.

nice post

 

[seekthetruth909]

Originally Posted by ElderofEphesus
"As you all well know, noone in the church is to receive a salary for church work. If anyone sells products in the name of Christ, you know they are not right before God."

Paul worked but he also took donations. How are the people in ministry full-time suppose to pay their bills? Granted there are some who go too far the other way but to say that no one is to get a salary ??.

Where is it scripturally that "they are not right before God" for selling products?"

Some verses to ponder regarding this:

1 Corinthians 9

17 If I preach voluntarily, I have a reward; if not voluntarily, I am simply discharging the trust committed to me. 18 What then is my reward? Just this: that in preaching the gospel I may offer it free of charge, and so not make use of my rights in preaching it.

2 Corinthians 2 17Unlike so many, we do not peddle the word of God for profit. On the contrary, in Christ we speak before God with sincerity, like men sentfrom God.

Acts 20
33 I have not coveted anyone's silver or gold or clothing. 34 You yourselves know that these hands of mine have supplied my own needs and the needs of my companions. 35In everything I did, I showed you that by this kind of hard work we must help the weak, remembering the words the Lord Jesus himself said: 'It is more blessed to give than to receive.'

1 Thessalonians 2

As apostles of Christ we could have been a burden to you, 7 but we were gentle among you, like a mother caring for her little children. 8 We loved you so much that we were delighted to share with you not only the gospel of God but our lives as well, because you had become so dear to us. 9Surely you remember, brothers, our toil and hardship; we worked night and day in order not to be a burden to anyone while we preached the gospel of God to you.

2 Corinthians 12
14 Now I am ready to visit you for the third time, and I will not be a burden to you, because what I want is not your possessions but you. After all, children should not have to save up for their parents, but parents for their children. 15 So I will very gladly spend for you everything I have and expend myself as well. If I love you more, will you love me less?

2 Thessalonians 3
6 In the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, we command you, brothers, to keep away from every brother who is idle and does not live according to the teaching[a] you received from us. 7 For you yourselves know how you ought to follow our example. We were not idle when we were with you, 8nor did we eat anyone's food without paying for it. On the contrary, we worked night and day, laboring and toiling so that we would not be a burden to any of you. 9 We did this, not because we do not have the right to such help, but in order to make ourselves a model for you to follow. 10For even when we were with you, we gave you this rule: "If a man will not work, he shall not eat."


1 Corinthians 9

11 If we have sown spiritual seed among you, is it too much if we reap a material harvest from you? 12 If others have this right of support from you, shouldn't we have it all the more? But we did not use this right. On the contrary, we put up with anything rather than hinder the gospel of Christ.
Acts 18
1 After this, Paul left Athens and went to Corinth. 2 There he met a Jew named Aquila, a native of Pontus, who had recently come from Italy with his wife Priscilla, because Claudius had ordered all the Jews to leave Rome. Paul went to see them, 3and because he was a tentmaker as they were, he stayed and worked with them.

2 Corinthians 11
7 Was it a sin for me to lower myself in order to elevate you by preaching the gospel of God to you free of charge? 8 I robbed other churches by receiving support from them so as to serve you. 9 And when I was with you and needed something, I was not a burden to anyone, for the brothers who came from Macedonia supplied what I needed. I have kept myself from being a burden to you in any way, and will continue to do so.
1 Thessalonians 4:11-12

11 Make it your ambition to lead a quiet life, to mind your own business and to work with your hands, just as we told you, 12 so that your daily life may win the respect of outsiders and so that you will not be dependent on anybody.
1 Corinthians 4
8 Already you have all you want! Already you have become rich! You have become kings—and that without us! How I wish that you really had become kings so that we might be kings with you! 9 For it seems to me that God has put us apostles on display at the end of the procession, like men condemned to die in the arena. We have been made a spectacle to the whole universe, to angels as well as to men. 10 We are fools for Christ, but you are so wise in Christ! We are weak, but you are strong! You are honored, we are dishonored! 11 To this very hour we go hungry and thirsty, we are in rags, we are brutally treated, we are homeless. 12 We work hard with our own hands. When we are cursed, we bless; when we are persecuted, we endure it; 13 when we are slandered, we answer kindly. Up to this moment we have become the scum of the earth, the refuse of the world.

 

[Rick Otto]

to hear danibethb tell us she found a church with transparent finances, and that at last Sunday's service, she announced that the 8 group members will be attending there, since no one in this congregation is interested in what they've been doing for 3yrs, and the "cost of doing business"(tithe) at this location is impossible to determine as far as its effectiveness, & prohibitive in yielding fruit on the missions field.

All 8 should be standing with her, & make a beeline out the door after danibeth concludes with "Thank you for support & kind attention."

Give freely & cheerfully, or not at all.
Tithing was for Levites & wasn't money!

 

[Nadiine]

Some verses to ponder regarding this:

1 Corinthians 9

17 If I preach voluntarily, I have a reward; if not voluntarily, I am simply discharging the trust committed to me. 18 What then is my reward? Just this: that in preaching the gospel I may offer it free of charge, and so not make use of my rights in preaching it.

Thank you for posting scriptures... but I'm a little surprised that you didn't post the verses in the same chapter about a Pastor making his living from the church?
I'm wondering why this was left out?:

1 Cor 9:13-14 Do you not know that those who perform sacred services eat the food of the temple, and those who attend regularly to the altar have their share from the altar?
14 So also the Lord directed those who proclaim the gospel to get their living from the gospel. ​

And Paul was a Traveling missionary... this is why he didn't visit a church and DEMAND INCOME FROM THEM.
What missionaries do we know who go church-to-church, demand that we PAY THEM an income for their visit???
None I've ever known.
It's actually not even fair to use Paul's verses to relate to home Pastors/leaders of the local church, becuz they don't have the same duties or responsibilities OR costs. (it costs alot of $$ to keep a church operating today!)

One other interesting aspect to me too is, Everything we expect a Pastor to do: study for sermons, visit the sick, counsel the hurting, do weddings & funerals, be at every function, teach sermons (oftentimes Wed. nites, & several services on Sunday), run the church, take constant criticism from congregants (lets not forget, he's constantly being scrutinized for his every word & action which is a pressure all its own), be on call 24/7 for everyone's needs & problems & questions, PLUS find time to be with his family & do his own workload at home.. all WHILE WE DON'T THINK HE SHOULD BE PAID.??

I hear alot of Christians complaining about how they don't even have the time to get to church 1 day a week, yet this is what we expect a Pastor to do for us while HE keeps a steady job & family?

I have a big problem with that. (hopefully it's just ignorance).
Is THAT how we would want to be treated? Do we want to treat our Pastors this way? Is this love?

Here's a link regarding this if anyone's interested, I checked the site's statement of faith & I'm satisfied with it.
http://www.joyfulheart.com/church/sweatshop.htm

 

[rosiecotton]

Thank you for posting scriptures... but I'm a little surprised that you didn't post the verses in the same chapter about a Pastor making his living from the church?
I'm wondering why this was left out?:

1 Cor 9:13-14 Do you not know that those who perform sacred services eat the food of the temple, and those who attend regularly to the altar have their share from the altar?
14 So also the Lord directed those who proclaim the gospel to get their living from the gospel. ​

And Paul was a Traveling missionary... this is why he didn't visit a church and DEMAND INCOME FROM THEM.
What missionaries do we know who go church-to-church, demand that we PAY THEM an income for their visit???
None I've ever known.
It's actually not even fair to use Paul's verses to relate to home Pastors/leaders of the local church, becuz they don't have the same duties or responsibilities OR costs. (it costs alot of $$ to keep a church operating today!)

One other interesting aspect to me too is, Everything we expect a Pastor to do: study for sermons, visit the sick, counsel the hurting, do weddings & funerals, be at every function, teach sermons (oftentimes Wed. nites, & several services on Sunday), run the church, take constant criticism from congregants (lets not forget, he's constantly being scrutinized for his every word & action which is a pressure all its own), be on call 24/7 for everyone's needs & problems & questions, PLUS find time to be with his family & do his own workload at home.. all WHILE WE DON'T THINK HE SHOULD BE PAID.??

I hear alot of Christians complaining about how they don't even have the time to get to church 1 day a week, yet this is what we expect a Pastor to do for us while HE keeps a steady job & family?

I have a big problem with that. (hopefully it's just ignorance).
Is THAT how we would want to be treated? Do we want to treat our Pastors this way? Is this love?

Here's a link regarding this if anyone's interested, I checked the site's statement of faith & I'm satisfied with it.
http://www.joyfulheart.com/church/sweatshop.htm

Amen! I'm our church secretary (which is a 40 hour a week job and YES I get paid for it!!) And there is no way I could do it voluntarily. For one, I need the money and I don't know anyone who would work a fulltime 40 hour a week job for the fun of it.
It amazes me sometimes when people think that ministers shouldn't get paid for what they do. Most ministers do not have time to work another full time job to support their family. And if they did work a full time job to support their family, plus everything ministers do, they would never have any time to relax and be with their families!

 

[seekthetruth909]

Thank you for posting scriptures... but I'm a little surprised that you didn't post the verses in the same chapter about a Pastor making his living from the church?
I'm wondering why this was left out?:

1 Cor 9:13-14 Do you not know that those who perform sacred services eat the food of the temple, and those who attend regularly to the altar have their share from the altar?
14 So also the Lord directed those who proclaim the gospel to get their living from the gospel. ​

And Paul was a Traveling missionary... this is why he didn't visit a church and DEMAND INCOME FROM THEM.
What missionaries do we know who go church-to-church, demand that we PAY THEM an income for their visit???
None I've ever known.
It's actually not even fair to use Paul's verses to relate to home Pastors/leaders of the local church, becuz they don't have the same duties or responsibilities OR costs. (it costs alot of $$ to keep a church operating today!)

One other interesting aspect to me too is, Everything we expect a Pastor to do: study for sermons, visit the sick, counsel the hurting, do weddings & funerals, be at every function, teach sermons (oftentimes Wed. nites, & several services on Sunday), run the church, take constant criticism from congregants (lets not forget, he's constantly being scrutinized for his every word & action which is a pressure all its own), be on call 24/7 for everyone's needs & problems & questions, PLUS find time to be with his family & do his own workload at home.. all WHILE WE DON'T THINK HE SHOULD BE PAID.??

I hear alot of Christians complaining about how they don't even have the time to get to church 1 day a week, yet this is what we expect a Pastor to do for us while HE keeps a steady job & family?

I have a big problem with that. (hopefully it's just ignorance).
Is THAT how we would want to be treated? Do we want to treat our Pastors this way? Is this love?

Here's a link regarding this if anyone's interested, I checked the site's statement of faith & I'm satisfied with it.
http://www.joyfulheart.com/church/sweatshop.htm

You are correct. Please read the entire chapter: 1 Corinthians 9 The Rights of an Apostle. Paul does say that they have a right to make a living from the gospel, but he refuses this right, in order to not hinder the gospel. Here is a good article on this subject: http://batteredsheep.com/pastors_salaried.html

God Bless

 

[Starcrystal]

Thank you for posting scriptures... but I'm a little surprised that you didn't post the verses in the same chapter about a Pastor making his living from the church?
I'm wondering why this was left out?:

1 Cor 9:13-14 Do you not know that those who perform sacred services eat the food of the temple, and those who attend regularly to the altar have their share from the altar?
14 So also the Lord directed those who proclaim the gospel to get their living from the gospel. ​

And Paul was a Traveling missionary... this is why he didn't visit a church and DEMAND INCOME FROM THEM.
What missionaries do we know who go church-to-church, demand that we PAY THEM an income for their visit???
None I've ever known.
It's actually not even fair to use Paul's verses to relate to home Pastors/leaders of the local church, becuz they don't have the same duties or responsibilities OR costs. (it costs alot of $$ to keep a church operating today!)

One other interesting aspect to me too is, Everything we expect a Pastor to do: study for sermons, visit the sick, counsel the hurting, do weddings & funerals, be at every function, teach sermons (oftentimes Wed. nites, & several services on Sunday), run the church, take constant criticism from congregants (lets not forget, he's constantly being scrutinized for his every word & action which is a pressure all its own), be on call 24/7 for everyone's needs & problems & questions, PLUS find time to be with his family & do his own workload at home.. all WHILE WE DON'T THINK HE SHOULD BE PAID.??

I hear alot of Christians complaining about how they don't even have the time to get to church 1 day a week, yet this is what we expect a Pastor to do for us while HE keeps a steady job & family?

I have a big problem with that. (hopefully it's just ignorance).
Is THAT how we would want to be treated? Do we want to treat our Pastors this way? Is this love?

Here's a link regarding this if anyone's interested, I checked the site's statement of faith & I'm satisfied with it.
http://www.joyfulheart.com/church/sweatshop.htm

I agree a pastor should be able to live from what their congregation provides, and I think members should give gifts accordingly. The only thing I don't agree with is when they preach tithing - whether they think it's a scriptural doctrine, or in some few cases they do it so they can live a lavish lifestyle. (filthy lucre).

Your earlier comment about John Haggee. Of course I don't believe your stealing from God if you don't tithe (for reasons I've already mentioned), but I do sort of agree with what he says about having kids. I wouldn't judge anyone on it, but I do know "be fruitful and multiply" was not a part of the law that was nailed to the cross.... in fact it wasn't even part of the law.

 

[New_Wineskin]

We all know that most groups have expenses - many have huge expenses . The members have agreed to it ( sometimes generations ago and current members are stuck with the decisions ) .

Be that as it may , why not simply have a membership fee or club dues ? Why use a religious term and make it a law for obtaining righteousness ? "Tithe" has no fit if one looked at the Scriptures . Giving doesn't fit , either since it is usually demanded .

So , why *not* just call it what it is - a membership fee ? I know , religious words make things seem so pious and "godly" . But , it isn't *true* . And , isn't *truth* to be the center of Christianity ?

Now , people can still actually give to the group as donations beyond their fees or they can pay for the fees of those who would not be able to afford it but still desire to be members .

One could then go to a group and , while choosing to be a member or not , they can inquire on the fee .

To come up with the fee , all one has to do is add up the yearly expenses and divide by the number of members . If more members come in , the fee can be reduced the next year . It isn't that complicated .

 

[Nadiine]

Be that as it may , why not simply have a membership fee or club dues ? Why use a religious term and make it a law for obtaining righteousness ? "Tithe" has no fit if one looked at the Scriptures . Giving doesn't fit , either since it is usually demanded .

So , why *not* just call it what it is - a membership fee ? I know , religious words make things seem so pious and "godly" . But , it isn't *true* . And , isn't *truth* to be the center of Christianity ?

AGREED. I don't see tithing in the NT.

The way I see it, God also shouldn't have to BEG, GRAVEL or pull teeth to get something back from us either.

Here's a way my husband looks at it, Waiters & Waitresses expect a 15-20% tip for their service at a restaurant, yet we complain about giving God 10%. (granted, the price of a meal isn't your weekly paycheck... errr, at least I hope not! lol).

Here's how the site link I gave puts it:
"Things haven't changed a great deal to our day. In Christian congregations all over our land, people who pride themselves on their faith in Jesus Christ bring a $20 bill every Sunday and place it in the offering plate each week and feel good about it. But let's look at it closely. Let's say the family receives $25,000 per year in gross income, or $35,000, or $45,000. What would a weekly tithe -- 10% of those salaries or wages -- amount to?

Get your calculator and figure it out. If you divide $25,000 by 52 weeks you get an income of $480 per week. A tithe on $480 is $48 per week. The weekly tithe for a family making $35,000 is $67.31; for $45,000 it is $86.54 per week."

Even if it were a membership fee, I have no problem w/ that. It's who I'm giving to: GOD.
We give money/gifts when we go to events, sports, clubs, weddings, birthdays..
I don't place as much view as doing anything or giving anything to PEOPLE because the money is being used for God's kingdom which benefits us all.

But i agree, we aren't under tithe in the NT (not that it's a bad concept since God initiated it).

 

[seekthetruth909]

AGREED. I don't see tithing in the NT.

The way I see it, God also shouldn't have to BEG, GRAVEL or pull teeth to get something back from us either.

Here's a way my husband looks at it, Waiters & Waitresses expect a 15-20% tip for their service at a restaurant, yet we complain about giving God 10%. (granted, the price of a meal isn't your weekly paycheck... errr, at least I hope not! lol).

Here's how the site link I gave puts it:
"Things haven't changed a great deal to our day. In Christian congregations all over our land, people who pride themselves on their faith in Jesus Christ bring a $20 bill every Sunday and place it in the offering plate each week and feel good about it. But let's look at it closely. Let's say the family receives $25,000 per year in gross income, or $35,000, or $45,000. What would a weekly tithe -- 10% of those salaries or wages -- amount to?

Get your calculator and figure it out. If you divide $25,000 by 52 weeks you get an income of $480 per week. A tithe on $480 is $48 per week. The weekly tithe for a family making $35,000 is $67.31; for $45,000 it is $86.54 per week."

Even if it were a membership fee, I have no problem w/ that. It's who I'm giving to: GOD.
We give money/gifts when we go to events, sports, clubs, weddings, birthdays..
I don't place as much view as doing anything or giving anything to PEOPLE because the money is being used for God's kingdom which benefits us all.

But i agree, we aren't under tithe in the NT (not that it's a bad concept since God initiated it).

I agree we should give generously to God. But how do we accomplish this?
In the Old Testament priests represented God and people were required to tithe to them. In the New Testament who represents God? Who has a right to collect the money on his behalf? The New Testament says that we are all priests now. 1 Peter 2:5

When Jesus speaks of giving, he is always [except for one exception] referring to the poor. Paul [as you previously noted] stated that apostles were entitled to receive support, but the apostles traveled spreading the gospel and resembled missionaries more than pastors. From New Testament scripture we can conclude that the most efficient way to give to God is to support missionaries and give to the poor. There is no scripture I know of in the New Testament that requires us to support the modern definition of church. The bible does say, "The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by hands.” Acts 17:24

I believe giving to missionaries and the poor would better serve God than paying for new social programs in our local church. Although if we choose to attend a church we do have a responsibility to contribute to it’s expenses just as we would if we belonged to any other social club. But preaching, “You must give to God,” to raise money for new church baseball uniforms, while there are poor people in need just down the street, or missionaries overseas struggling to survive, does not seem to serve God’s purpose.
World Vision and Compassion are excellent Christian organizations to contribute generously to. Although we may not receive the social benefits that a local church provides in return for our giving, the spiritual benefits are far greater. We would be helping to spread the gospel and feed the poor just as Jesus commanded.

May God grant you wisdom in your search for truth

 

[Nadiine]

I agree we should give generously to God. But how do we accomplish this?

Good points... (altho I do find the NT giving offerings in their local churches). God had them give to the Priests in the OT becuz they were to have their full focus on God's work & serving the people (I believe).
(which is what i want of my own Pastor at my church).

& you touched on the social issue that I find MOST important.
I do like that you mentioned that if you go to a church, that you should be financially supporting it (otherwise, you'll HAVE no church)

Here's my claim: if NO christians support their LOCAL churches, all churches planted in the communities FAIL and dissappear. (***equally an issue when the big push today is to attack church attendance altogether; as if it's some great 'evil'***)

I'D LIKE TO THINK THAT EACH LOCAL CHURCH IS A MISSIONARY, planted in that area to serve the local community & be a LIGHT there.

But when all local Christian churches are GONE, where are the lost and needy to go for spiritual help? For counsel? Aid? Prayer from Christians? Support, etc?

Society is left with the Mormon, Jehovah Witness, Islam, Scientology, Christian science, Buddhist & Kabballah centers to seek God or get help. THAT'S MY MAIN CONCERN.

People need "one on one" human contact as much as I love the benefits of the internet, tv & radio outlets.... they just don't do the job as well.

So while your points are well taken & understood, this is what your left with if every church stops being funded and/or we all decide it's not important to attend one anymore.

 

[mont974x4]

Nadine, I have agreed with you on just about every post you've made, until now. lol Thats ok tho.

The Church is the people. So whether or not we support a local fellowship or attend services in a designated builing or not there is a church in the community. The key is whether or not the people act like it or not.


Also, I actually prefer a preaching elder or pastor that has at least had a regular job. Too often I have come across these men who while know the Scripture have a hard time relating it to real world circumstabces and it hurts how they relate to and counsel people.


I do think we should support the place where we are fed, so long as that place doesn't become the focus when we need to look outside not inside. Does that make sense?

 

[Nadiine]

Nadine, I have agreed with you on just about every post you've made, until now. lol Thats ok tho.

The Church is the people. So whether or not we support a local fellowship or attend services in a designated builing or not there is a church in the community. The key is whether or not the people act like it or not.


Also, I actually prefer a preaching elder or pastor that has at least had a regular job. Too often I have come across these men who while know the Scripture have a hard time relating it to real world circumstabces and it hurts how they relate to and counsel people.


I do think we should support the place where we are fed, so long as that place doesn't become the focus when we need to look outside not inside. Does that make sense?

It makes sense to me yes.
& it's fine Monte,

I'm kinda the opposite, I want the pastor/elder to be able to dedicate most all his time to his study & church matters, but I absolutely agree that it has pitfalls of its own. (what doesn't, huh?).

I totally understand why you'de think that way - in fact, we just had to leave our regular church of 5 yrs. for the Pastor becomming 'corrupt' with abusing church finances (for personal usage & other stuff).
We couldn't trust where our offerings were being spent anymore.

I really like hearing other people's ideas & input in these forums becuz I can stay open to seeing other perspectives in how God leads others.

God bless U

 

[mont974x4]

Thanks!

I do understand the desire to have him be available fulltime for ministry at the church. However I often wonder how many are actually busy doing full time ministry.

Of course, I am rather cynical anyways.

We attended a small church where that pastor worked as a self-employed handyman. He was always available when someone called but while he was working on peoples homes..often shut-ins and others who would not or could not go to a traditional church...he was ministering to them.

God Bless


Jay

 

[seekthetruth909]

Thanks!

I do understand the desire to have him be available fulltime for ministry at the church. However I often wonder how many are actually busy doing full time ministry.

Of course, I am rather cynical anyways.

We attended a small church where that pastor worked as a self-employed handyman. He was always available when someone called but while he was working on peoples homes..often shut-ins and others who would not or could not go to a traditional church...he was ministering to them.

God Bless


Jay

The pastor sounds like a great guy! Reminds me of apostle Paul.

 

[mont974x4]

He's not a bad guy...but he is still human. just like the rest of us.

 

[seekthetruth909]

Good points... (altho I do find the NT giving offerings in their local churches). God had them give to the Priests in the OT becuz they were to have their full focus on God's work & serving the people (I believe).
(which is what i want of my own Pastor at my church).

& you touched on the social issue that I find MOST important.
I do like that you mentioned that if you go to a church, that you should be financially supporting it (otherwise, you'll HAVE no church)

Here's my claim: if NO christians support their LOCAL churches, all churches planted in the communities FAIL and dissappear. (***equally an issue when the big push today is to attack church attendance altogether; as if it's some great 'evil'***)

I'D LIKE TO THINK THAT EACH LOCAL CHURCH IS A MISSIONARY, planted in that area to serve the local community & be a LIGHT there.

But when all local Christian churches are GONE, where are the lost and needy to go for spiritual help? For counsel? Aid? Prayer from Christians? Support, etc?

Society is left with the Mormon, Jehovah Witness, Islam, Scientology, Christian science, Buddhist & Kabballah centers to seek God or get help. THAT'S MY MAIN CONCERN.

People need "one on one" human contact as much as I love the benefits of the internet, tv & radio outlets.... they just don't do the job as well.

So while your points are well taken & understood, this is what your left with if every church stops being funded and/or we all decide it's not important to attend one anymore.

Maybe I have a bias from a few bad experiences in churches where there appeared to be an attempt to exploit the poor by telling them they were cursed if they did not give more money to the pastor. I have heard the term, “Give to God,” misused many times.

You are correct to a degree. Churches do provide support and counseling to Christians and may help in their Christian walk, but I have heard many missionaries claim that the strongest Christian church today that resembles the New Testament is in China where there are practically no churches buildings. They meet in secret to avoid being arrested and persecuted.If the same conditions were in America today how many Christians would possibly give up their faith rather than face prison? There is nothing wrong in worshiping in a building and we do need Christian fellowship but the real church is inside of all of us.

I recently visited a pastors website where their was a post titled “Why are so many pastors leaving the church in America?” It listed the top 10 reasons and two of them were, “It sucks working weekends,” and “I don’t get a new car every year.” Many younger pastors replied agreeing. One older pastor was appalled at the responses and wondered, where was the joy and commitment in serving the Lord? Apostle Paul choose to work as a tentmaker and receive no support. This is a sharp contrast to some mega churches where the head pastor receives a huge salary. In some situations a full time paid pastor may be needed, but a pastor’s main motivation should not be about money, it should be about a desire to serve in any way he can.
When Paul says, “It is more blessed to give than receive, he is referring to him the church leader doing the giving. He even refers to his congregation as his children. If a pastor does not feel this way, he should find another profession where he does not have to work weekends.Being a pastor is a calling not a job. In China pastors don’t get salaries, are beaten and spend time in prisons. They are called by God to serve. For better or for worse, they walk in The Spirit.

God Bless


Acts 20 33 I have not coveted anyone's silver or gold or clothing. 34 You yourselves know that these hands of mine have supplied my own needs and the needs of my companions. 35In everything I did, I showed you that by this kind of hard work we must help the weak, remembering the words the Lord Jesus himself said: 'It is more blessed to give than to receive.'
1 Thessalonians 2

As apostles of Christ we could have been a burden to you, 7 but we were gentle among you, like a mother caring for her little children. 8 We loved you so much that we were delighted to share with you not only the gospel of God but our lives as well, because you had become so dear to us. 9Surely you remember, brothers, our toil and hardship; we worked night and day in order not to be a burden to anyone while we preached the gospel of God to you.

2 Corinthians 12
14 Now I am ready to visit you for the third time, and I will not be a burden to you, because what I want is not your possessions but you. After all, children should not have to save up for their parents, but parents for their children. 15 So I will very gladly spend for you everything I have and expend myself as well. If I love you more, will you love me less?

 

[Nadiine]

Maybe I have a bias from a few bad experiences in churches where there appeared to be an attempt to exploit the poor by telling them they were cursed if they did not give more money to the pastor. I have heard the term, “Give to God,” misused many times.

You are correct to a degree. Churches do provide support and counseling to Christians and may help in their Christian walk, but I have heard many missionaries claim that the strongest Christian church today that resembles the New Testament is in China where there are practically no churches buildings. They meet in secret to avoid being arrested and persecuted.If the same conditions were in America today how many Christians would possibly give up their faith rather than face prison? There is nothing wrong in worshiping in a building and we do need Christian fellowship but the real church is inside of all of us.

I recently visited a pastors website where their was a post titled “Why are so many pastors leaving the church in America?” It listed the top 10 reasons and two of them were, “It sucks working weekends,” and “I don’t get a new car every year.” Many younger pastors replied agreeing. One older pastor was appalled at the responses and wondered, where was the joy and commitment in serving the Lord? Apostle Paul choose to work as a tentmaker and receive no support. This is a sharp contrast to some mega churches where the head pastor receives a huge salary. In some situations a full time paid pastor may be needed, but a pastor’s main motivation should not be about money, it should be about a desire to serve in any way he can.
When Paul says, “It is more blessed to give than receive, he is referring to him the church leader doing the giving. He even refers to his congregation as his children. If a pastor does not feel this way, he should find another profession where he does not have to work weekends.Being a pastor is a calling not a job. In China pastors don’t get salaries, are beaten and spend time in prisons. They are called by God to serve. For better or for worse, they walk in The Spirit.

I SO agree w/ the Pastors who serve in China... what do THEY GET? Yet they risk their lives to serve the Lord.
They'll have great reward in heaven!

While I fully agree w/ your statements, financial abuse doesn't warrent throwing out the Baby with the Bathwater imo...

Everything gets abused, I don't think it warrents tearing down the system that was built for us to follow.
We just left my church of 5 years just one month ago for financial misuse by our Pastor (along w/ other things w/ his methods, usurping authority & ethics).
Even after that, I stand by a Pastor earning his wages thru His ministry work.
I think it's sad & horrible, but it doesn't stop me or change my mind.
(GOD will judge Shepherds who abuse.. I always remember, that MY MONEY IS NOT WASTED when a pastor/ministry misuses it sinfully, I RECIEVE HEAVENLY REWARD because I gave faithfully & willingly. It's TO GOD, not man).

RC Sproul had a sermon on seminary graduates over the past decade... what they do and don't believe about God were SHOCKING.
Let's just say, now more than ever, I'm very aware of what I'm being taught.

Jesus warned that as time went on, there would be MANY false teachers.. they multiply & increase.
So it's no wonder we're seeing what you quoted above.
SAD... but a sign of the times we're in.

People are no longer enduring Sound Doctrine.
​

Anyways,I truly understand your position & why you & probably others feel that way & your points are well taken. Bad Shepherds have existed from ancient times to today, nothing's new under the sun.​

peace
​

 

[Starcrystal]

Not only is tithing unscriptural for the church, we need to look at the fruits of the tithing doctrine. In some cases, but not all, we have seen multi million dollar churches and megachurches built. Of course a pastor needs a place to seat a congregation, but some of these buildings are literal palaces. I've also seen some of these ministries turn into a wishy-washy gospel of comprimize: prosperity teaching (which usually benefits the pastor and church staff) and lots of problems with immorality. It becomes the love of money even if they do claim it's for Gods work!
Why don't these same pastors build a humble church without all the glass sparklies, extravagant architecture, and plush furniture? Ezekiel called them "pillow prophets." Or why don't they purchase abandoned buildings that can be restored and used as a church? I've been all over the country and everywhere there are abandoned brick buildings that were once factories, shops, even state hospitals. At a fraction of the cost of a new palace like building, pastors could purchase these and make them into a nice church....

As a teenager we used to go into these old abandoned buildings to party or whatever.... and many of them are structurally sound and quite large enough to seat thousands if converted to churches.

But instaed pastors waste millions on lavish temples when they could have the same seating for less and use the extra money for the poor and missionaries - it also would put far less of a burden on their congregations who end up getting milked by "building fund" messages to build the extravagant churches.