Matt Crouch

[Ringo84]

Did you read the word 'alleged'??? I can 'allege' something against you..would that make it true?? NO!

Did you read where I wrote: ' Of course, allegations don't amount to truth. We all know that.'? Don't jump to conclusions.

Am I sticking up for him..no..cause only God and Paul know for sure what happened.

That post wasn't directed solely at you but to the whole thread. I thought that people might want to read those articles for their own information. Don't get so angry; I'm not out to get you but TBN. I don't really have anything against you at all.

Of course only they know what happened. But don't you find it strange that everything about their lifestyles and theology is about money? Don't you find it strange that 'Ministry Watch', a Christian ministry watchdog organization issued no less than three donor alerts about TBN? Don't you find it strange that so many people have an uneasy feeling about TBN and their dealings?

I think your main problem is that you feel that most of the stuff here is simply rumors and allegations. You don't necessarily feel either way about TBN; you just don't want a reputable ministry to fall because of idle gossip. That's admirable. I'm glad you are so conscientous. After having watched TBN for several years, in addition to reading many articles about them, I don't like nor trust them. Of course, there is no absolute smoking gun that proves, without a doubt, that they are crooks. I believe that they are, although that may not have much sway with you. And if I'm correct, then the truth will eventually surface. It always does.

I recommend you read the articles - even if only to educate yourself about the allegations against TBN.

I wouldn't be so quick to call them heretics either...this COULD be turned around on you someday by someone for something YOU did. MERCY triumphs over judgement.[/qote]

The WOF doctrine IS h*resy, in my opinion. Read my post above about WOF. It outlines my entire case against it.
Ringo

 

[Alpine]

Did you read the word 'alleged'??? I can 'allege' something against you..would that make it true?? NO! Am I sticking up for him..no..cause only God and Paul know for sure what happened. I wouldn't be so quick to call them heretics either...this COULD be turned around on you someday by someone for something YOU did. MERCY triumphs over judgement.

To be fair, as to whether the affair actually happened is something only a few people know. What we do know for a fact and TBN agrees with, is that they paid the guy off! The exact same thing that got Jim Baker into hot water too when the big payoff to Jessica Hahn came out into the open. I have to say, them paying this guy off might of been one of the biggest mistakes they have made at TBN. Even if they are not guilty, it's about the same as an admission of guilt. But, hey, I have more links, cept, from actually newspapers, but you reacted exactly as I expected. We could post links until the sky turns yellow, and you'd still not believe.

 

[Alpine]

The WOF doctrine IS h*resy, in my opinion. Read my post above about WOF. It outlines my entire case against it.
Ringo

I have to disagree that Wof is a heresy. Just my opinion of course. I don't consider myself WOF anymore (I used to be) but I wouldn't go as far as to say that. I would even go as far to say I don't really care that they are buying very expensive cars. If they want to be stupid with their money, good for them. (I happen to think very expensive cars are stupid to have, but that's a personal opinion) What does bother me is the misrepresentation of donated money going towards pure ministry functions, and instead being funneled into movie projects that have all lost quite a bit of money. To me that is fraud. And a serious offense.

Even still, I think the issue of WOF and if it is a heresy would be going off topic and better suited to its own topic, of which we've had a million in this forum as it is.

 

[dkbwarrior]

Don't you find it strange that 'Ministry Watch', a Christian ministry watchdog organization issued no less than three donor alerts about TBN?

Mweh, I cannot recollect a scripture reference for the spiritual gift 'watchdog'.

Of course, there is no absolute smoking gun that proves, without a doubt, that they are crooks. I believe that they are...

What a strange thing to put ones faith in...

You do know that love believes the best of others don't you? What do you think the scripture calls believing the worst of others?

I recommend you read the articles - even if only to educate yourself about the allegations against TBN.

Allegations without evidence is called defamation, and it happens to be against the law.

The bible also calls it gossip. And Jesus said that he that hateth his brother without cause is a murderer.

Just sharing...

 

[dkbwarrior]

So, the news media could be trusted when it came to reporting the holocaust? Or the moon landing?

Why would you not believe the media when report after report has something negative to say about TBN's financial dealings? What do you think of the pay off to a Paul Crouch assistant in the hundred's of thousands of dollars to hush up about a supposed homosexual affair? It actually did happen. It's not just a rumour. It's the exact same thing that brought Jim Bakers empire down. This little story has quietly been brewing for awhile amongst all the other dirty ones that are floating out there. At some point, things will come to a head and it will involve either the IRS or some other agency.

Media is a big thing. And, if you noticed, this didn't get alot of national media attention. In fact none of these acusations have gotten alot of legs in the national media. And believe me when I tell you, it is not because the national media would not looooove to stick a finger in the eye of the church.

Precisely, because there is very little or no corroboration to any of the accusations is the reason it has not gotten the attention of the national media in a big way.

Do you think for an instant that if some evidence of wrongdoing came out about TBN, or for that matter Billy Graham, or Oral Roberts, or any other nationally known minister, that it wouldn't be splashed across every national media outlet for weeks and weeks?

I ignore most accusations about ministries. But this one I checked out, quite some time ago I may add, (this happened years ago), because I wanted to satisfy myself that I could continue to trust TBN.

Like the rest of the accusations, it is only half truths, and carefully placed adjectives. You should do the same as I did, and look up all sides of this story, and there are several, before you start inferring guilt.

Jim Bakker was involved in blackmail. That is illegally paying someone to be quiet about something.

This case we are talking about here was a legally binding court arbitrated settlement, one condition (among many) was that the party suing for wrongful termination of employment, (upon payment of the employment settlement,) would not be able to talk about the case publickly thereafter.

This can only be construed as blackmail if one uses the proper adjectives and doesn't tell the whole story, and then of course it is repeated by those darlings of christian love themselves, the christians.

But this was not blackmail, rather, it was a legally binding court arbitrated agreement in writing regarding the alleged wrongful termination of employment.

Not to mention the man that made these accusations is an ex-felon, previoously convicted in unrelated incidents of fraudulent dealings. What does that tell you?

What a shame for Gods children, to 'backbite and devour one another', so they can 'consume one another'.

Add up the facts that we do know.

Paul Crouch is nearly eighty years old, and has been in public life for more than half of that with no rumour or hint of sexual impropriety, let alone homosexuality. The accuser is an felon with fraud on his record. You can only see this one way, unless there is some kind of corroborating evidence, or unless you are truly incapable of obective thinking.

 

[HisBelovedMelody]

Media is a big thing. And, if you noticed, this didn't get alot of national media attention. In fact none of these acusations have gotten alot of legs in the national media. And believe me when I tell you, it is not because the national media would not looooove to stick a finger in the eye of the church.

Precisely, because there is very little or no corroboration to any of the accusations is the reason it has not gotten the attention of the national media in a big way.

Do you think for an instant that if some evidence of wrongdoing came out about TBN, or for that matter Billy Graham, or Oral Roberts, or any other nationally known minister, that it wouldn't be splashed across every national media outlet for weeks and weeks?

I ignore most accusations about ministries. But this one I checked out, quite some time ago I may add, (this happened years ago), because I wanted to satisfy myself that I could continue to trust TBN.

Like the rest of the accusations, it is only half truths, and carefully placed adjectives. You should do the same as I did, and look up all sides of this story, and there are several, before you start inferring guilt.

Jim Bakker was involved in blackmail. That is illegally paying someone to be quiet about something.

This case we are talking about here was a legally binding court arbitrated settlement, one condition (among many) was that the party suing for wrongful termination of employment, (upon payment of the employment settlement,) would not be able to talk about the case publickly thereafter.

This can only be construed as blackmail if one uses the proper adjectives and doesn't tell the whole story, and then of course it is repeated by those darlings of christian love themselves, the christians.

But this was not blackmail, rather, it was a legally binding court arbitrated agreement in writing regarding the alleged wrongful termination of employment.

Not to mention the man that made these accusations is an ex-felon, previoously convicted in unrelated incidents of fraudulent dealings. What does that tell you?

What a shame for Gods children, to 'backbite and devour one another', so they can 'consume one another'.

Add up the facts that we do know.

Paul Crouch is nearly eighty years old, and has been in public life for more than half of that with no rumour or hint of sexual impropriety, let alone homosexuality. The accuser is an felon with fraud on his record. You can only see this one way, unless there is some kind of corroborating evidence, or unless you are truly incapable of obective thinking.

AMEN!!!!!!!!!!!! Thank you. MY point exactly. I can go on the net and make stuff up, find ANYTHING negative I want...and as you say..a few misplaced adjectives and wala...accusation galore. GOODNESS>

 

[CrazyforYeshua]

As i said before, if you give money to a ministry for a specific purpose, and it is used for something else, it is illegal. I have no doubt someone like TBN, with all the money they have, knows this. That's why they have lawyers and accountants.
If it is found to be true that this is what's happening, there will be backlash. They could get sued, or worse, indicted.

 

[HisBelovedMelody]

and wouldn't the media love to expose it and drag it through the mud.

 

[jrlinz]

I have read somewhere (can't remember where, and it may be a lie) that less than 10 cents of every dollar donated to the United Way actually makes it to help someone in need, The rest is supposedly eaten up by administrative expences, huge admin. perks and salaries, transport, and other expenses. Wonder how TBN compares.

 

[BenAdam]

I have read somewhere (can't remember where, and it may be a lie) that less than 10 cents of every dollar donated to the United Way actually makes it to help someone in need, The rest is supposedly eaten up by administrative expences, huge admin. perks and salaries, transport, and other expenses. Wonder how TBN compares.

oh man, united way had a huge scandal about their handling of funds, another group i will not give to

 

[HisBelovedMelody]

oh man, united way had a huge scandal about their handling of funds, another group i will not give to

but then I wonder IF you would give money to ANYone...

 

[BenAdam]

but then I wonder IF you would give money to ANYone...

welcome to the ignore button...

 

[HisBelovedMelody]

welcome to the ignore button...

OH goodness..I am so upset by this...I am going to go and cry!

 

[dkbwarrior]

OH goodness..I am so upset by this...I am going to go and cry!

Thats Ok, I'll listen to ya'...

 

[HisBelovedMelody]

Thats Ok, I'll listen to ya'...

thanks! people putting me on ignore..go figure. WHY can't they do that with TBN!?!? LOL, if it offends them so!

 

[~RENEE~]

thanks! people putting me on ignore..go figure. WHY can't they do that with TBN!?!? LOL, if it offends them so!

Because they've gotta complain about something anything. Your next

 

[HisBelovedMelody]

Because they've gotta complain about something anything. Your next

next? what to get talked about?? ha, oh well. have fun! I say then! I will be in good company!

 

[~RENEE~]

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Judahspraise again.

fine then

 

[HisBelovedMelody]

fine then

aww...ty!

 

[NacDan]

I mean anyone that can live a lavish lifestyle of the donations of others. Now if they were upfront about it, that would be fine. But I wonder how many people would knowingly give to someone that would use the money to dock their boat in Balboa Harbor?

What say you I pay you TWO shillings and we forget about the name?

Danny