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Was 911 an inside job?

Was 911 carried out by the Government?

  • Yes or more likely than not

  • No.

  • I dont want to say.


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brother daniel

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Sure, I'll agree that it is hypocritical. Ignoring Israel's violations underscores that the UN is pretty much a hollowed out shell, having no real legitimacy as an organization because it is unwilling to enforce the resolutions they pass.

In Christ,

Acts6:5
Beloved brethren,
As I see it

The United States of America, The UN, Zionist Israel and Islam are all false fronts for the Synagogue of Satan and its bankers.

9/11 was a inside job of the Synagogue of Satan and its WAR RACKET

Christians have been lulled to sleep by false teachers.

With love in Christ
brother daniel

 
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djbcrawford

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But secession of hostilities from the Gulf war was dependent on Saddam adhering to UN resolutions, and he purposefully violated over 16 of them. You said the UN didn’t find any WMD’s, but Saddam refused to adhere to UN resolutions 707 and 715, which demanded immediate, unconditional and unrestricted access to inspection areas, and he refused to cooperate fully with UN and IAEA inspectors.

That’s because the UN isn’t willing to enforce the resolutions they draft. It’s like a school board who admonishes a bully for beating up students. The board threatens to suspend the bully if he doesn’t adhere to school policies, but the bully keeps beating up students while the board refuses to issue a suspension. Punishment for the bully is fully justified but the board isn't willing to enforce it's own rules.

But bringing in a bigger bully to beat up the first bully doesn't make it right.

And it’s no surprise the UN didn’t approve because several UN officials have been accused of taking oil bribes from Saddam through the Oil for Food program. You don’t bite the hand that feeds you.

Don't talk about oil bribes, America has been doing it for years. Weren't they responsible for putting Sadam in power the first place? They certainly sold him enough weapons.


If that’s true, then the trumped up evidence is inexcusable. But the reality is the US and Britain had every right to resume hostilities against Saddam, even without the trumped up evidence, because Saddam had been violating UN resolutions for over a decade and the UN refused to take action against him. Is it any wonder the UN passes resolution after resolution against N. Korea and Iran, and those two countries just laugh and ignore them?

Regardless of public opinion, nations within the UN had every right to enforce the resolutions Saddam flagrantly disobeyed. The UN has proven over and over again that it isn’t willing to do it’s job.

In Christ,

So America/Britain use the excuse of ignored UN resolutions to invade Iraq, thereby ignoring UN resolutions themselves. Isn't it hypocritical of America with it's vast nuclear reserves to insist no-one else can have them. Russia offered to get rid of it's WMD's years ago if America agreed and America turned them down.

Would America/Britain been happy to to take out Sadam or Oslama if it was going to cost the lives of 100,000 of their own citizens - I think not. But if they're Afgans or Iraqi's - well that's just collateral damage. Sounds more like racism to me where one life is worth less than another.

Talking of weapons, didn't America make use of banned weapons during both wars against Afganistan and Iraq (land-mines, carpet bombing and depleted urainium rounds to name but a few). Isn't America's treatment of captured prisoners of war in Guantanimo Bay in direct violation of the Geneva Convention and the European Convention on Human Rights. Maybe the UN should invade them? Oh yes, I almost forgot, America would just use their WMD's...
 
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NumberOneSon

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djbcrawford said:
But bringing in a bigger bully to beat up the first bully doesn't make it right.

No, not bringing in another bully – enforcing school policy by suspending the child. Cessation of the Gulf War was predicated on Saddam’s willingness to adhere to UN resolutions, but he has flagrantly violated those resolutions for over a decade. So the US and Britain enforced the “suspension” Saddam and his government rightfully deserved.

djbcrawford said:
Don't talk about oil bribes, America has been doing it for years. Weren't they responsible for putting Sadam in power the first place? They certainly sold him enough weapons.

Yes, I will talk about oil bribes, because bribery and the Oil for Food scandal are valid reasons why many UN officials weren’t willing to approve of action against Saddam even though it was fully justified. You’re trying to change the subject by talking about US hypocrisy, but that won’t fly. You’re certainly justified to see the US as being hypocritical, but that doesn’t change the fact that Saddam was lining the pockets of UN officials and Allied countries with oil bribes, hoping to influence their decision-making when it came to Iraq.

djbcrawford said:
So America/Britain use the excuse of ignored UN resolutions to invade Iraq, thereby ignoring UN resolutions themselves.

Again, they didn't need “excuses”; the first Gulf War was halted based on Saddam’s willingness to adhere to the UN’s resolutions. If he ignored those resolutions, then a completion of military action was fully justified. The UN has shown repeatedly that it is unwilling to enforce the resolutions they draft.

djbcrawford said:
Isn't it hypocritical of America with it's vast nuclear reserves to insist no-one else can have them. Russia offered to get rid of it's WMD's years ago if America agreed and America turned them down.

Sure it’s hypocritical, but again, America’s hypocrisy is a completely different issue than the fact that Saddam’s government was not toppled by the Allies in 1991 because he agreed to a ceasefire, and the conditions for that ceasefire have been violated repeatedly for over a decade. If you agree to a truce and then you violate it, then the truce is off.

djbcrawford said:
Would America/Britain been happy to to take out Sadam or Oslama if it was going to cost the lives of 100,000 of their own citizens - I think not.

A hypothetical argument based purely on emotion, and again, not one that deals with the fact Saddam violated the terms of the ceasefire. You could make that argument about almost any war. Would Allied countries have been happy to take out Hitler pre-WWII if they knew beforehand that it was going to cost the lives of over 50 million of their own citizens, 34 million being civilians?

djbcrawford said:
But if they're Afgans or Iraqi's - well that's just collateral damage. Sounds more like racism to me where one life is worth less than another.
Who’s saying that? I certainly don't think that way. If you want to find people who truly look upon the Afgans and Iraqi peoples as collateral damage, you can focus your anger at the Taliban, Iraqi militant groups, and Sunni/Shiite death squads who intentionally target civilians to accomplish their goals. They are the ones intentionally blowing up schools, buses, markets, police stations, and hotels, and civilian vehicles.

djbcrawford said:
Talking of weapons, didn't America make use of banned weapons during both wars against Afganistan and Iraq (land-mines, carpet bombing and depleted urainium rounds to name but a few). Isn't America's treatment of captured prisoners of war in Guantanimo Bay in direct violation of the Geneva Convention and the European Convention on Human Rights. Maybe the UN should invade them? Oh yes, I almost forgot, America would just use their WMD's...

Once again, you’re changing the subject. Stop using America’s past hypocrisies to justify the UN’s inaction in Iraq. I have already admitted several times that America has acted hypocritical in the past, so why can’t you just admit the UN is also being hypocritical by refusing to enforce their resolutions against Iraq? It’s a simple question.

In Christ,

Acts6:5
 
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NumberOneSon

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catlover said:
Exactly, Rumsfield was shaking hands with that horrible evil dictator 20 years ago...

So what? Roosevelt and Churchill shook hands with Stalin, and were allies during WWII. Stalin was a far worse evil dictator than Saddam was, and the US ended up in a 40 year Cold War with the Soviets only a couple years after being allies. Is that hypocrisy...or is it a simple matter of "the enemy of my enemy is my friend"? Alliances come and go.





In Christ,

Acts6:5
 
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gwynedd1

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America puts in power (sometimes by force) whoever they want in power, as long as they are useful to america. Its all a game.
The US houses the tools of economic warefare to accomplish this. It is not even that it is useful to America but those that rule through finance. The IMF/World bank emulate the tactice of usury that Israel used against their enemies.

35 ' If one of your brethren becomes poor, and falls into poverty among you, then you shall help him, like a stranger or a sojourner, that he may live with you.
36 'Take no usury or interest from him; but fear your God, that your brother may live with you.
37 'You shall not lend him your money for usury, nor lend him your food at a profit. (Leviticus 25:35-37)
---------------
19 " You shall not charge interest to your brother -- interest on money or food or anything that is lent out at interest.
20 "To a foreigner you may charge interest, but to your brother you shall not charge interest, that the LORD your God may bless you in all to which you set your hand in the land which you are entering to possess. (Deuteronomy 23:19,20)
The World Bank has all the pedigree of Rothschilds where loans are secured by taxing power. Money is lent at interest to govenments which natually empowers the regime, not of its own devices, but a a grant. Policing and military power is a natural result to enforce the taxing power to secure the debt.

http://www.globalexchange.org/campaigns/wbimf/TopTenIMF.html

Inflation and deflation is a means to gain control of a nation
 
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djbcrawford

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No, not bringing in another bully – enforcing school policy by suspending the child. Cessation of the Gulf War was predicated on Saddam’s willingness to adhere to UN resolutions, but he has flagrantly violated those resolutions for over a decade. So the US and Britain enforced the “suspension” Saddam and his government rightfully deserved.


How can you use violation of a resolution as an excuse for war, if you do it yourself to go to war. How can you compare "suspension" with destruction of a country and killing of it's citizens.

Yes, I will talk about oil bribes, because bribery and the Oil for Food scandal are valid reasons why many UN officials weren’t willing to approve of action against Saddam even though it was fully justified. You’re trying to change the subject by talking about US hypocrisy, but that won’t fly. You’re certainly justified to see the US as being hypocritical, but that doesn’t change the fact that Saddam was lining the pockets of UN officials and Allied countries with oil bribes, hoping to influence their decision-making when it came to Iraq.


Hmmm, spending resources to influence political decisions. Sounds pretty democratic to me...

Again, they didn't need “excuses”; the first Gulf War was halted based on Saddam’s willingness to adhere to the UN’s resolutions. If he ignored those resolutions, then a completion of military action was fully justified. The UN has shown repeatedly that it is unwilling to enforce the resolutions they draft.



Sure it’s hypocritical, but again, America’s hypocrisy is a completely different issue than the fact that Saddam’s government was not toppled by the Allies in 1991 because he agreed to a ceasefire, and the conditions for that ceasefire have been violated repeatedly for over a decade. If you agree to a truce and then you violate it, then the truce is off.


Had he invaded another country - No. Had he created more WMD's - No. Had he got rid of his existing WMD's - Yes. Had he anything to do with 9/11 or Al Queda - No (despite the American Governments attempts to link the two events). So all he was doing was being a bit cagey over weapons inspections.

Yes he was an evil dictator, but we were told this war had nothing to do with regime change. Of course now the WMD's haven't been found, suddenly that has become the justification. How many other evil dictators in the world are happily feted when it suits. How many were actually put in power by america in the first place.

A hypothetical argument based purely on emotion, and again, not one that deals with the fact Saddam violated the terms of the ceasefire. You could make that argument about almost any war. Would Allied countries have been happy to take out Hitler pre-WWII if they knew beforehand that it was going to cost the lives of over 50 million of their own citizens, 34 million being civilians?

Different arguement all together. Hitler invaded another country which started WW2. If we're using the Hitler example, then Bush's actions are closer to Hitler's initial rise to power than Sadam's are. Warnings of mysterious enemies, reduction of civil liberties, invading other countries to 'protect your citizens and borders'. The fact remains. Would America have accepted the losses if they had been their own citizens. Would it have been justifiable to nuke Germany pre-WW2 to take out Hitler? This is not fighting an invader. It is invading another country, Why was Sadam removed from power? Is the world a safer place - No. Is Iraq a safer place - No. Because it suited American oil interests - could be...


Who’s saying that? I certainly don't think that way. If you want to find people who truly look upon the Afgans and Iraqi peoples as collateral damage, you can focus your anger at the Taliban, Iraqi militant groups, and Sunni/Shiite death squads who intentionally target civilians to accomplish their goals. They are the ones intentionally blowing up schools, buses, markets, police stations, and hotels, and civilian vehicles.

Isn't that changing the subject. Pointing out the atrocities of the Taliban, etc doesn't mean America can get away with it. It is often pointed out how many of his own citizens Sadam killed during his years in power. Well considering how long he had, we could well have reached that total in a lot less time since America and Britain blundered in.



Once again, you’re changing the subject. Stop using America’s past hypocrisies to justify the UN’s inaction in Iraq. I have already admitted several times that America has acted hypocritical in the past, so why can’t you just admit the UN is also being hypocritical by refusing to enforce their resolutions against Iraq? It’s a simple question.

In Christ,

Acts6:5

I would make that hypocritical in the present. And yes, the UN is hypocritical too, I'm not defending them, but they seemed more interested in avoiding war and countless deaths regardless of their motives.

But this thread is really about 9/11 and we have diverted somewhat. Do you think if 9/11 hadn't happened, America would have still gone into Iraq? I don't think so, yet Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11.
 
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Micahyah

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Is American Democracy Too Feeble To Deal With 9/11?
By Paul Craig Roberts, VDare.com, 9/11/06


I would be more confident of the survival of democracy and civil liberty in the United States if, on this fifth anniversary of the September 11 attacks, a majority of Americans were reading David Ray Griffin’s challenging new book, Christian Faith and the Truth Behind 9/11.

It is an inexpensive book and available quickly from online booksellers. A person only needs to read the first 56 pages to realize that the official account of the collapse of the three World Trade Center buildings has many problems and that defenders of the official account have no hard evidence upon which to stand. [...]

Griffin expects no further investigation from Congress, official commissions, and government agencies, such as the National Institute for Standards and Technology. Although Griffin calls on the New York Times to take up the investigation, he does not expect any investigative interest on the part of the media, which has served as a propagandist for the government’s story.

Instead, Griffin places his hope in Christian churches. He calls upon the churches to confront the evil that has America in its grip.

Is the hope that Griffin places on Christian churches realistic? Many of the right-wing evangelical churches are fanatical supporters of the Bush Administration and Republican Party. The Rapture churches actually look forward to the Armageddon that they believe Bush is brewing in the Middle East as they think it will bring about their ascent into Heaven.
[...]
 
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NumberOneSon

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CREATING CRAZED '9/11 TRUTH'

ON Feb. 7, 2005, I became a member of the Bush/Halliburton/Zionist/CIA/New World Order/Illuminati conspiracy for world domination. That day, Popular Mechanics, the magazine I edit, hit newsstands with a story debunking 9/11 conspiracy theories. Within hours, the online community of 9/11 conspiracy buffs - which calls itself the "9/11 Truth Movement" - was aflame with wild fantasies about me, my staff and the article we had published. Conspiracy Web sites labeled Popular Mechanics a "CIA front organization" and compared us to Nazis and war criminals.

For a 104-year-old magazine about science, technology, home improvement and car maintenance, this was pretty extreme stuff. What had we done to provoke such outrage?

Research.

Conspiracy theories alleging that 9/11 was a U.S. government operation are rapidly infiltrating the mainstream. These notions are advanced by hundreds of books, over a million Web pages and even in some college classrooms. The movie "Loose Change," a slick roundup of popular conspiracy claims, has become an Internet sensation.

Worse, these fantasies are gaining influence on the international stage. French author Thierry Meyssan's "The Big Lie," which argues that the U.S. military orchestrated the attacks, was a bestseller in France, and his claims have been widely repeated in European and Middle Eastern media. And recent surveys reveal that, even in moderate Muslim countries such as Turkey and Jordan, majorities of the public believe that no Arab terrorists were involved in the attacks.

"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion," Sen. Daniel Patrick Moynihan was fond of saying. "He is not entitled to his own facts." Yet conspiracy theorists want to pick and choose which facts to believe.

Rather than grapple with the huge preponderance of evidence in support of the mainstream view of 9/11, they tend to focus on a handful of small anomalies that they believe cast doubt on the conventional account. These anomalies include the claim that the hole in the Pentagon was too small to have been made by a commercial jet (but just right for a cruise missile); that the Twin Towers were too robustly built to have been destroyed by the jet impacts and fires (so they must have been felled by explosives), and more. If true, these and similar assertions would cast serious doubt on the mainstream account of 9/11.

But they're not true. Popular Mechanics has been fact-checking such claims since late 2004, and recently published a book on the topic. We've pored over transcripts, flight logs and blueprints, and interviewed more than 300 sources - including engineers, aviation experts, military officials, eyewitnesses and members of investigative teams.

In every single case, we found that the very facts used by conspiracy theorists to support their fantasies are mistaken, misunderstood or deliberately falsified.
Here's one example: Meyssan and hundreds of Web sites cite an eyewitness who said the craft that hit the Pentagon looked "like a cruise missile with wings." Here's what that witness, a Washington, D.C., broadcaster named Mike Walter, actually told CNN: "I looked out my window and I saw this plane, this jet, an American Airlines jet, coming. And I thought, 'This doesn't add up. It's really low.' And I saw it. I mean, it was like a cruise missile with wings. It went right there and slammed right into the Pentagon."

We talked to Walter and, like so many of the experts and witnesses widely quoted by conspiracy theorists, he told us he is heartsick to see the way his words have been twisted: "I struggle with the fact that my comments will forever be taken out of context."
Here's another: An article in the American Free Press claims that a seismograph at Columbia University's Lamont-Doherty Earth Observatory picked up signals indicating that large bombs were detonated in the towers. The article quotes Columbia geologist Won-Young Kim and certainly looks authoritative. Yet the truth on this issue is not hard to find. A published Lamont-Doherty report on the seismic record of 9/11 says no such thing. Kim told Popular Mechanics that the publication's interpretation of his research was "categorically incorrect." Yet the claim is repeated verbatim on more than 50 Web sites as well as in the film "Loose Change."

Every 9/11 conspiracy theory we investigated was based on similarly shoddy evidence. Most of these falsehoods are easy to refute simply by checking the original source material or talking to experts in the relevant fields. And yet even the flimsiest claims are repeated constantly in conspiracy circles, passed from Web site to book to Web site in an endless daisy chain. And any witness, expert - or publication - that tries to set the record straight is immediately vilified as being part of the conspiracy.

The American public has every right to ask hard questions about 9/11. And informed skepticism about government and media can be healthy. But skepticism needs to be based on facts, not fallacies. Unfortunately, for all too many, conspiratorial fantasies offer a seductive alternative to grappling with the hard realities of a post-9/11 world.
James B. Meigs is editor-in-chief of Popular Mechanics. The magazine's new book, "Debunking 9/11 Myths: Why Conspiracy Theories Can't Stand up to the Facts," is just out.
 
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gwynedd1

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CREATING CRAZED '9/11 TRUTH'

ON Feb. 7, 2005, I became a member of the Bush/Halliburton/Zionist/CIA/New World Order/Illuminati conspiracy for world domination. That day, Popular Mechanics, the magazine I edit, hit newsstands with a story debunking 9/11 conspiracy theories. Within hours, the online community of 9/11 conspiracy buffs - which calls itself the "9/11 Truth Movement" - was aflame with wild fantasies about me, my staff and the article we had published. Conspiracy Web sites labeled Popular Mechanics a "CIA front organization" and compared us to Nazis and war criminals.

For a 104-year-old magazine about science, technology, home improvement and car maintenance, this was pretty extreme stuff. What had we done to provoke such outrage?

Research.

Conspiracy theories alleging that 9/11 was a U.S. government operation are rapidly infiltrating the mainstream. These notions are advanced by hundreds of books, over a million Web pages and even in some college classrooms. The movie "Loose Change," a slick roundup of popular conspiracy claims, has become an Internet sensation.

Worse, these fantasies are gaining influence on the international stage. French author Thierry Meyssan's "The Big Lie," which argues that the U.S. military orchestrated the attacks, was a bestseller in France, and his claims have been widely repeated in European and Middle Eastern media. And recent surveys reveal that, even in moderate Muslim countries such as Turkey and Jordan, majorities of the public believe that no Arab terrorists were involved in the attacks.

"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion," Sen. Daniel Patrick Moynihan was fond of saying. "He is not entitled to his own facts." Yet conspiracy theorists want to pick and choose which facts to believe.

Rather than grapple with the huge preponderance of evidence in support of the mainstream view of 9/11, they tend to focus on a handful of small anomalies that they believe cast doubt on the conventional account. These anomalies include the claim that the hole in the Pentagon was too small to have been made by a commercial jet (but just right for a cruise missile); that the Twin Towers were too robustly built to have been destroyed by the jet impacts and fires (so they must have been felled by explosives), and more. If true, these and similar assertions would cast serious doubt on the mainstream account of 9/11.

But they're not true. Popular Mechanics has been fact-checking such claims since late 2004, and recently published a book on the topic. We've pored over transcripts, flight logs and blueprints, and interviewed more than 300 sources - including engineers, aviation experts, military officials, eyewitnesses and members of investigative teams.

In every single case, we found that the very facts used by conspiracy theorists to support their fantasies are mistaken, misunderstood or deliberately falsified.
Here's one example: Meyssan and hundreds of Web sites cite an eyewitness who said the craft that hit the Pentagon looked "like a cruise missile with wings." Here's what that witness, a Washington, D.C., broadcaster named Mike Walter, actually told CNN: "I looked out my window and I saw this plane, this jet, an American Airlines jet, coming. And I thought, 'This doesn't add up. It's really low.' And I saw it. I mean, it was like a cruise missile with wings. It went right there and slammed right into the Pentagon."

We talked to Walter and, like so many of the experts and witnesses widely quoted by conspiracy theorists, he told us he is heartsick to see the way his words have been twisted: "I struggle with the fact that my comments will forever be taken out of context."
Here's another: An article in the American Free Press claims that a seismograph at Columbia University's Lamont-Doherty Earth Observatory picked up signals indicating that large bombs were detonated in the towers. The article quotes Columbia geologist Won-Young Kim and certainly looks authoritative. Yet the truth on this issue is not hard to find. A published Lamont-Doherty report on the seismic record of 9/11 says no such thing. Kim told Popular Mechanics that the publication's interpretation of his research was "categorically incorrect." Yet the claim is repeated verbatim on more than 50 Web sites as well as in the film "Loose Change."

Every 9/11 conspiracy theory we investigated was based on similarly shoddy evidence. Most of these falsehoods are easy to refute simply by checking the original source material or talking to experts in the relevant fields. And yet even the flimsiest claims are repeated constantly in conspiracy circles, passed from Web site to book to Web site in an endless daisy chain. And any witness, expert - or publication - that tries to set the record straight is immediately vilified as being part of the conspiracy.

The American public has every right to ask hard questions about 9/11. And informed skepticism about government and media can be healthy. But skepticism needs to be based on facts, not fallacies. Unfortunately, for all too many, conspiratorial fantasies offer a seductive alternative to grappling with the hard realities of a post-9/11 world.
James B. Meigs is editor-in-chief of Popular Mechanics. The magazine's new book, "Debunking 9/11 Myths: Why Conspiracy Theories Can't Stand up to the Facts," is just out.

This is like looking into a mirror. As one that questions the Fema report I am considered a lunatic and THAT is a conspricy theory. Just repeat it outloud just like the other conspriracy theories. "A global network of islamo-fascist terror cells used trained suicide bombers to infultrate US security and destroy US targets because they hate our freedom"....? That looses on motive alone.

What do we have?

  1. Operation Northwoods . Now consider what this REALLY means. All the joint chiefs of staff signed off on this. That it was not done is hardly relevent. They ALL thought it could be done. So they having knowledge of there own apparatus and command chain seems to have more credibility than those who cannot see this possibilty.
  2. We have evidence being hidden. The reason is what exactly? Just release the footage for the Pentagon.
  3. 3 buildings collapse? Especially building 7 that looks like a controlled demolision to nearly EVERYONE and we have the lease holder using demolition jargon by mistake?
  4. No one saw this coming but we knew who it was in days?
  5. We are in 2 trouble spots for oil?
Is that not enough to be even suspicious? If one who questions the other theories now enjoys the same kind of hysteria directed at them as those that question the Fema report then they are just the latest to have encountered such things
 
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NumberOneSon

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Is that not enough to be even suspicious?

"The American public has every right to ask hard questions about 9/11. And informed skepticism about government and media can be healthy. But skepticism needs to be based on facts, not fallacies. Unfortunately, for all too many, conspiratorial fantasies offer a seductive alternative to grappling with the hard realities of a post-9/11 world."

In Christ,

Acts6:5
 
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gwynedd1

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"The American public has every right to ask hard questions about 9/11. And informed skepticism about government and media can be healthy. But skepticism needs to be based on facts, not fallacies. Unfortunately, for all too many, conspiratorial fantasies offer a seductive alternative to grappling with the hard realities of a post-9/11 world."

In Christ,

Acts6:5

I would agree. I see more emotion going into it on either side. As a result of your posts I now think a commerical plane hit the pentagon.
 
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