Are these icons Orthodox?

[MariaRegina]

Another question - related to the OP.

What makes an Icon Orthodox?

 

[Michael G]

Another question - related to the OP.

What makes an Icon Orthodox?

An icon is Orthodox if it adheres to the canons of iconography which are set forth by the Orthodox Church.

 

[ibba23]

An icon is Orthodox if it adheres to the canons of iconography which are set forth by the Orthodox Church.

Hi michael,

You seem to be very knowledgable about icons and the theology which surrounds them. So im just wondering what you think of Coptic Orthodox icons? Have you ever heard of the coptic iconographer Isaac Fanous? I personally love his work but I would like to find your opinion on them.

 

[MariaRegina]

I love Coptic Orthodox Icons, but perhaps we should be discussing this in the other forum so that all the other Coptic Orthodox can also share?

I would like to see more websites with Coptic Orthodox Icons.

Los Angeles has quite a few Coptic Churches. I have visited St. Mary's Cathedral near Eagle Rock and the newly constructed Coptic Church in the San Fernando Valley.

 

[Happy Orthodox]

I understand what has been said, by you and the others. However, it comes across in a wrong tone. The OP set that tone by stating "Another iconographer struts his stuff." This has a negative tone to it. Rather, it could have been said "A question about this iconographer and his work." The judgement was made before the statement was written in the op.

In addition, it would appear, appear mind you, that an Orthodox chapel or cathedral can only be built by Orthodox Christians in good standing with the Church. And yet I know this is not true.

As was already pointed out by another post, judgement seems to win over compassion and crticism over true critique. And that was my point.

The Reader Peter

Sorry, wether that's judgement or criticism, but I just feel personally offended and even betrayed by seeing my dearest Bysantine Theotokos written by the same hand that all those Catholic dudes in Western robes are. That's just plain lack of tact. And concistency. An iconographer is the one who adhers to the rules. And if he did write icons according to the rules, he wouldn't have attempted to write all those Catholic dudes in Bysantine style! Especially those that are not even Saints. And gild their halos. Man! If he did paint legitimate Bysantine icons, I would have had no problem with that. You see, you need humility to be iconographer. You need to obey the rules and cut out your own will. I don't see that happening here. I'm just

 

[MariaRegina]

Sorry, wether that's judgement or criticism, but I just feel personally offended and even betrayed by seeing my dearest Bysantine Theotokos written by the same hand that all those Catholic dudes in Western robes are. That's just plain lack of tact. And concistency. An iconographer is the one who adhers to the rules. And if he did write icons according to the rules, he wouldn't have attempted to write all those Catholic dudes in Bysantine style! Especially those that are not even Saints. And gild their halos. Man! If he did paint legitimate Bysantine icons, I would have had no problem with that. You see, you need humility to be iconographer. You need to obey the rules and cut out your own will. I don't see that happening here. I'm just

I agree. In addition the fact that this particular iconographer was somewhat misleading in his biography irked me. Even his profile on the other messageboard didn't mention which church he considers 'home.' And, yes, this would affect his style of iconography.

 

[Michael G]

Hi michael,

You seem to be very knowledgable about icons and the theology which surrounds them. So im just wondering what you think of Coptic Orthodox icons? Have you ever heard of the coptic iconographer Isaac Fanous? I personally love his work but I would like to find your opinion on them.

I do not know this iconographer, but I am very fond of the Coptic school of iconography. I personally have a few coptic icons that will be in my chapel, and find the simplicity and style of Coptic icons to be quite beautiful.

 

[nutroll]

Have you ever heard of the coptic iconographer Isaac Fanous? I personally love his work but I would like to find your opinion on them.

I have a copy of an interview with Dr. Isaac Fanous from the Sacres Art Journal (Dec. 1993). I think one of the most interesting things mentioned in the article is that he sees his art as having a moderrn influence. He feels tied to tradition, but sees the work as dynamic. He maintains that the Coptic icons and Byzantine Icons say the same thing but with a different language. It is interesting to read about some of the differences in that language, and to see that there is room for iconography to be more than a stagnant art form. Iconography can change in terms of its expression, so long as the truth behind it never changes. I have to say that I never fully appreciated Coptic iconography as I don't understand the language as well as i understand the language of Byzantine iconography.

 

[Michael G]

I have a copy of an interview with Dr. Isaac Fanous from the Sacres Art Journal (Dec. 1993). I think one of the most interesting things mentioned in the article is that he sees his art as having a moderrn influence. He feels tied to tradition, but sees the work as dynamic. He maintains that the Coptic icons and Byzantine Icons say the same thing but with a different language. It is interesting to read about some of the differences in that language, and to see that there is room for iconography to be more than a stagnant art form. Iconography can change in terms of its expression, so long as the truth behind it never changes. I have to say that I never fully appreciated Coptic iconography as I don't understand the language as well as i understand the language of Byzantine iconography.

Yes, that is a very good point. A good friend of mine who is also an iconographer (who I am sure you probably know) has often made that very same point: that iconography is not a stagnant art form, but rather a living dynamic art form. I also made the same point in the paper that I recently wrote and have submitted to WORD for publishing.

I would also suggest that while the languages of Byzantine and Russian iconography are very similar, they are indeed different. Understanding the subtle differences and the reasons behind those differences can help you to further appreciate the true genius in both the Byzantine and Russian schools of iconography. I must admit that when I first started to look at the classical Russian icons over a decade ago, I could not see what my teacher was getting at about the beauty of Russian work. It was only by learning what was being said and done in the icons that I was able to slowly gain a profound appreciation for them.

 

[Argent]

Could someone recommend a book that explains the history of iconography and the differences in the styles? Thanks.

 

[Peter]

Well, now I'm confused. The See of Rome is not in communion with the EP. And, unless I have been misinformed, niether is the Pope of the Coptic Church. So why is it okay to have Coptic icons and not Roman ones? Neither is Eastern Orthodox.

The Reader Peter

 

[MariaRegina]

I have a Roman Catholic Icon that I purchased from a Catholic bookstore in 1993 before I was in the Eastern Church.

The back of the icon of the Theotokos holding the Christ Child reads:

MADONNA
Neroccio (1447-1500)
Musee de Dijon

ars liturgica
Kunstverlag Maria Laach (Germany)

Nr. 13591

Distributed by Printery House, Conception
MO 64433

My Orthodox Priest blessed it.

It depicts the Theotokos in a moment of motherly tenderness. She gazes downward as almost imperceptible tears swell up in her eyes and gently cascade down her cheeks. During this intimate moment, the Christ Child embraces her and tries to comfort her as if saying, "Mother, don't cry."

This is one of my favorite icons and speaks to me as a mother.



Note: The second /e/ in the French word 'Musee' should be accented. However, if I use another font, others complain that they see one of those little squares. So, I hope you understand why I didn't attempt to use another font to display that accent.

 

[Peter]

There has been some mention of canons of the Church regarding iconography. Could someone post those, or at least a link?

The Reader Peter

 

[Petronius]

I visited a Catholic Church / Center of Conferences and in their Shop there was plenty of EO icons....

So I would say that since icons are not a Sacrament, we can use Catholic icons provided that the saint there is recognised by the EO Church plus all other necessary elements to make the work an ICON.

Other opinions ?

 

[MariaRegina]

I visited a Catholic Church / Center of Conferences and in their Shop there was plenty of EO icons....

So I would say that since icons are not a Sacrament, we can use Catholic icons provided that the saint there is recognised by the EO Church plus all other necessary elements to make the work an ICON.

Other opinions ?

Many churches in Russia had their Icons painted by Italian Catholics. My priest brought back some video recordings showing the spiritual history of Russia including iconography.

St. Sophia Greek Orthodox Church in Los Angeles and St. Nicholas Antiochian Church in Los Angeles both had their main icons painted by Italian Catholics.

 

[Michael G]

The canons of iconography can be found by reading the writings of the Fathers on iconography and by reading the canons of the various councils (local and ecumenical) which have dealt with iconography.

 

[Peter]

But surely there's a summation of these canons. We've been at this an awefulyl long time now.

While I do own the Antenicene and Nicene Fathers writings, I do not own the time to read every volume and pick out what they have to say regarding the subject. Nor do I possess the time to read every transcript of every council.

Are there NO summations anywhere? Even a very well written basic outline? I've read St. John of Damascus, but that was not on how to write an icon, but in defense of them.

The Reader Peter

 

[Cecilytwin1]

Here is what St. John of San Francisco has to say about iconography.

http://www.fatheralexander.org/booklets/english/johnmx_sermons_2.htm#n8

 

[Happy Orthodox]

Thank you, Cecilytwin1, that's a good sourse.

A canonical icon has specific elements, symbolism in the way it is written, what colors are used, what mediums, what patterns. The icon must have a name written in a specific place, Jesus Christ our Lord has "OWN" (read as "aw-aw-n", it's Greek for "He Who remains") in His halo, and so forth. These symbols point our minds and hearts to the true worship (ortho-doxy) of one Holy God, and they were chosen over the centuries by holy men as best among other symbols. To learn about the rules just attend an icon-writing workshop, or observe it if that's possible. You can also read about symbolism in books for iconographers. If an icon is done incorrectly, it will not have the same effect of directing our minds and spirit to everything righteous. I just don't have enough words to explain the importance of an icon done in a canonical way. I'm not even talking about all the prayers that must be done during creation of an icon, and the proper humility and godly predesposition of the iconographer. It is truly a holy work, that which brings blessings to the flock of God. And actually one might have temptations during that, because the enimy of humankind hates anything holy. Michael can probably tell you about that. It's just such a great deal, one must be carefull about it.

A Church might be built by heterodox men, but it must be done according to the rules, too.

Ok, I shut up. Forgive me, I love you all, guys

 

[MariaRegina]

While I do own the Antenicene and Nicene Fathers writings, I do not own the time to read every volume and pick out what they have to say regarding the subject. Nor do I possess the time to read every transcript of every council.

Are there NO summations anywhere? Even a very well written basic outline? I've read St. John of Damascus, but that was not on how to write an icon, but in defense of them.

Although Christian Forums is a Christian Ministry, Internet message boards do not exist to do research for a particular user. Individual members should attempt to do some research on their own. Libraries and Internet search engines can provide that indepth information.

When I have a question for which a ready answer is not found in my own personal library, I will ask Father John of the OCA website or I will visit my university and ask one of the college librarians. I have found that asking a good question can stimulate the librarian's interest in the Orthodox Church. In this way we can act as missionaries.