Are these icons Orthodox?

[Orthocat]

There is a man who stands 5 feet from me for most services. He can't carry a tune at all, yet he joins in the singing. I am the choir director. I guess I should publicly criticize this mans lack of skill because it is not equal to my own superior talent.
What say ye, Mr. Iconographer?

The Reader Peter

I'm gonna have to go with Michael on this.

The man singing isn't mixing hymns from other denominations/churches in with the current hymns is he? If you were singing one thing and suddenly he started singing "Amazing Grace" would everyone just turn away out of fear of "publically criticizing" him?

What got me is the mixture of church saints and the fact that some of them aren't considered saints at all. He is following no standards for iconography at all.

We are to be defenders of the faith, period. And this is one of those things to be defended. If we are to become like those that won't speak out in defense of our beliefs out of fear of "offending" someone then we are nothing more than the E********l church and shouldn't even call ourselves Christian - after all, those that believe in everything will soon believe in nothing.

When you mix the impure with the pure you don't get something new and wonderful - you get swill.

Forgive me.

 

[Peter]

Okay, for my sake, let's turn this toward a teaching thread.

Question 1: Must an iconographer be Orthodox to produce authentic icons? Please cite specific quotes from the Fathers, saints, Bishops, etc.

Question 2: Can an iconographer work for other Christian expressions? Again, please cite your answer with appropriate quotes.

Thank you.

The Reader Peter

 

[Petronius]

I have nothing polite to say about the work depicted here. I could totally dissect it artistically, but again it would not be prudent of me to do so.

If you are not offended enough by this site, I can show you many other sites of similar "iconographers" who do just the same thing.

To quote Fr. Vasily: "IS OUTRAGE!"

A very real feeling of anxiety came to me after viewing the paintings and I can not say why. Even the mix of Orthodox and Catholic saints depicted in a Byzantine style is not to the cause for this feeling.... Mr Mastorberte is claiming to play well in both Orthodox and Uniate Environment ..... as long as he is accepted and and gets orders, why not ? Ecumenism is on the wave.
He is making a honest living ....

But could you explain me what is this:

Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Greek Catholic Diocese ?

So it is Carpatho-Russian Orthodox or Greek Catholic ?

 

[Michael G]

A very real feeling of anxiety came to me after viewing the paintings and I can not say why. Even the mix of Orthodox and Catholic saints depicted in a Byzantine style is not to the cause for this feeling.... Mr Mastorberte is claiming to play well in both Orthodox and Uniate Environment ..... as long as he is accepted and and gets orders, why not ? Ecumenism is on the wave.
He is making a honest living ....

But could you explain me what is this:

Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Greek Catholic Diocese ?

So it is Carpatho-Russian Orthodox or Greek Catholic ?

The Carpatho-Russians are headed by Metropolitan Nicholas (in Johnstown) and are under the EP. Metropolitan Nicholas is a wonderful man who I have had the occasion to meet two times. He even sung "God Grant You Many Years" to me on my 29th Birthday (because he was visiting the parish I was attending at the time and my birthday happened to be on a sunday and he happened to visit that day).

 

[Petronius]

Should icons be used for humor and amusement?

The Reader Peter

NO

 

[Petronius]

Ok. New term for me. Uniate?

Uniate> Orthodox who united with Pope or or Byzantine Catholics or Greek Catholics

 

[Michael G]

Uniate> Orthodox who united with Pope or or Byzantine Catholics or Greek Catholics

Who owe their very existence to the prostelytizing work of the Jesuits in the slavic lands in the 17th century.

 

[Happy Orthodox]

Reader Peter, an iconographer must have a blessing from a bishop in order to write icons! His hands indeed are tools of the Holy Spirit, and whatever is related to a holy work must have a blessing! Writing a holy image is NOT the same as painting religious art!!! You just can't take a brush, mix colors, and there you go -- an icon! An icon must be done according to the strict rules, just as we build our churches, or set up altars, or do the service -- in Orthodoxy, everything holy is done according to the traditional rules. I think you know this, but i'm just saying this to emphasize. That man is not an iconographer. He is a religious artist. Period. His iconography is not done according to the rules. Even I can see that! Whatever the skill is it does not matter. What matters is whether he follows Orthodox doctrine, as his site claims "theology in color". Which theology, the question arises? Not Orthodox by any means.
I think the gravest crime that this man does is that he calls his icons and his "theology" Orthodox.


Here's a website of a friend of mine, who writes real icons. Note the sign on top of the page. Now compare her work with his.
http://www.iconarts.com/gallery.html

 

[ElenaS]

Here's a website of a friend of mine, who writes real icons. Note the sign on top of the page. Now compare her work with his.
http://www.iconarts.com/gallery.html

I love the icons your friend writes! If I had the money to commission one I would, but alas I am a recent college grad with not enough money quite yet to do that.

 

[Petronius]

Reader Peter, an iconographer must have a blessing from a bishop in order to write icons! His hands indeed are tools of the Holy Spirit, and whatever is related to a holy work must have a blessing! Writing a holy image is NOT the same as painting religious art!!! You just can't take a brush, mix colors, and there you go -- an icon! An icon must be done according to the strict rules, just as we build our churches, or set up altars, or do the service -- in Orthodoxy, everything holy is done according to the traditional rules. I think you know this, but i'm just saying this to emphasize. That man is not an iconographer. He is a religious artist. Period. His iconography is not done according to the rules. Even I can see that! Whatever the skill is it does not matter. What matters is whether he follows Orthodox doctrine, as his site claims "theology in color". Which theology, the question arises? Not Orthodox by any means.
I think the gravest crime that this man does is that he calls his icons and his "theology" Orthodox.


Here's a website of a friend of mine, who writes real icons. Note the sign on top of the page. Now compare her work with his.
http://www.iconarts.com/gallery.html

These ARE icons indeed.

 

[Peter]

Reader Peter, an iconographer must have a blessing from a bishop in order to write icons! His hands indeed are tools of the Holy Spirit, and whatever is related to a holy work must have a blessing! Writing a holy image is NOT the same as painting religious art!!! You just can't take a brush, mix colors, and there you go -- an icon! An icon must be done according to the strict rules, just as we build our churches, or set up altars, or do the service -- in Orthodoxy, everything holy is done according to the traditional rules. I think you know this, but i'm just saying this to emphasize. That man is not an iconographer. He is a religious artist. Period. His iconography is not done according to the rules. Even I can see that! Whatever the skill is it does not matter. What matters is whether he follows Orthodox doctrine, as his site claims "theology in color". Which theology, the question arises? Not Orthodox by any means.
I think the gravest crime that this man does is that he calls his icons and his "theology" Orthodox.


Here's a website of a friend of mine, who writes real icons. Note the sign on top of the page. Now compare her work with his.
http://www.iconarts.com/gallery.html

I understand what has been said, by you and the others. However, it comes across in a wrong tone. The OP set that tone by stating "Another iconographer struts his stuff." This has a negative tone to it. Rather, it could have been said "A question about this iconographer and his work." The judgement was made before the statement was written in the op.

In addition, it would appear, appear mind you, that an Orthodox chapel or cathedral can only be built by Orthodox Christians in good standing with the Church. And yet I know this is not true.

As was already pointed out by another post, judgement seems to win over compassion and crticism over true critique. And that was my point.

The Reader Peter

 

[Orthocat]

Reader Peter, an iconographer must have a blessing from a bishop in order to write icons! His hands indeed are tools of the Holy Spirit, and whatever is related to a holy work must have a blessing! Writing a holy image is NOT the same as painting religious art!!! You just can't take a brush, mix colors, and there you go -- an icon! An icon must be done according to the strict rules, just as we build our churches, or set up altars, or do the service -- in Orthodoxy, everything holy is done according to the traditional rules. I think you know this, but i'm just saying this to emphasize. That man is not an iconographer. He is a religious artist. Period. His iconography is not done according to the rules. Even I can see that! Whatever the skill is it does not matter. What matters is whether he follows Orthodox doctrine, as his site claims "theology in color". Which theology, the question arises? Not Orthodox by any means.
I think the gravest crime that this man does is that he calls his icons and his "theology" Orthodox.


Here's a website of a friend of mine, who writes real icons. Note the sign on top of the page. Now compare her work with his.
http://www.iconarts.com/gallery.html

yep yep - agreed!

Your friend's are beautiful.

 

[MariaRegina]

I understand what has been said, by you and the others. However, it comes across in a wrong tone. The OP set that tone by stating "Another iconographer struts his stuff." This has a negative tone to it. Rather, it could have been said "A question about this iconographer and his work." The judgement was made before the statement was written in the op.

In addition, it would appear, appear mind you, that an Orthodox chapel or cathedral can only be built by Orthodox Christians in good standing with the Church. And yet I know this is not true.

As was already pointed out by another post, judgement seems to win over compassion and crticism over true critique. And that was my point.

The Reader Peter

I'm sorry that my thread title upset you. I will see if Uncle Clem can change the title for me.

I was upset that this particular iconographer is using another message board to advertise his questionable icons and that he doesn't even identify his faith in his profile. He remains ambiguous. I find that to be rather misleading on his part. I still don't know if he has reverted back to Orthodoxy or is still under the Byzantine Catholics because of his claim that he served (past tense) as a cantor from 2002-2006 in the Byzantine Catholic Church.

He writes his biography as if it were an obituary notice. LOL

From his website:
He served as a cantor at Saint Mary of the Assumption Byzantine Catholic Church in Wilkes-Barre, Pennsylvania from 2002 to 2006

 

[Peter]

I guess an OCA Church commisioned these "iconographers" to do an icon for them..hmm

Scroll down to the 2nd to last one, the Crucifix...

http://www.theologyincolor.com/david/newericons.html

I copied the picture and emailed my Dean. I asked if a similar icon was not found in his church (frequented by the Bishop.)Here is his response:

Yes, indeed. We purchased it from St. Isaac of Syria Skete. Built the Cross ourselves and mounted the icon (it is removable) to it. We place it in the altar on the rear wall most of the year. This is Greek and Antiochian practice, but certainly, acceptable OCA. Most Russian Churches have such an icon but it is kept in the nave to one side. It is referred to as "the Golgotha." We follow Greek practice and use it during Holy Week in a particular manner - I could detail it sometime. What we do is done in a number of other OCA Churches.

The corpus (icon) is removed during one of the services of Holy Week (I'd have to look up the details) and wrapped in cloth and hidden in the altar area. The cross is replaced in the high place at the Pascha Matins. But the icon is not replaced until the liturgy for Ascension.

That's a nice one in the picture.
--
God's Peace,
Fr. XXXXXXX XXXXXXXXX

 

[nutroll]

I never actually understood the point of the post as that is pretty much a standard corpus for a cross. I'm wondering if repentant thought that the whole image was a crucifixion scene that was really weird.

I have to say that there are many iconographers who are within the Orthodox Church who are not very talented and that there are many outside the Orthodox Church who are talented. We can't take talent as the be all and end all. I have also seen icons painted by Orthodox Iconographers that are not within the canons of the church, and icons painted by non-Orthodox that are thoroughly within the canons of the church. I don't think that there is any difference between the two. That being said, I can understand why there are people who would advocate that only Orthodox paint icons as it makes sure that there is oversight by the clergy and adherence to the canons can be enforced. Once the icon has been painted by an Orthodox or non-Orthodox, however, I don't think we ought to judge them differently. Insofar as they follow the canons of the church, I think that we ought to treat them with the same respect. I don't like Monastery Icons for many, many reasons, but once they are blessed, as long as they follow the canons of the church, far be it from me to judge the end product.

I also want to address the issue of painted/written. I only ever say written when it is obvious that someone prefers to call it that. The controversy stems from translation issues. There is one word in Greek that means paint/draw/write/sketch and a host of similar words. When it is translated into English which has a distinction, we ought to use the word that most closely approximates the act, which given the use of paint brushes and paints would be paint. I understand that there are those who say that icons are like the gospel and therefore written, but that distinction is nothing more than trying to add more layers of theology onto something that is plenty deep already. There is nothing in the actual theology of the church that specifies that icons are written rather than painted. That being said, I don't care what anyone else calls it, it just drives me a little bit nuts when someone points out to me that icons are written when I have been painting them for 15 years.

 

[choirfiend]

I personally know the Mastrobertes. I've been friends with Dave since I was 16. His, father's icons are lovely whether or not he is now Catholic. While he was Orthodox, he painted an icon that is displayed in my church. It's a good idea not to critique others' work unless one's own work is above reproach. Let's play nice.

 

[Virgil the Roman]

I thought most icons, especially those done by Orthodox Iconographers, were done anonymously? Or is this a myth?

 

[Michael G]

I thought most icons, especially those done by Orthodox Iconographers, were done anonymously? Or is this a myth?

Traditionally icons are not signed, but if they are signed they are usually signed "By the hand of (name)."

 

[Peter]

First, thanks for the change of title.

Now here's a change of direction question. Who owns an icon? Can an icon be copyrighted? What if it left unsigned as Michael has indicated?

The Reader Peter

 

[Michael G]

First, thanks for the change of title.

Now here's a change of direction question. Who owns an icon? Can an icon be copyrighted? What if it left unsigned as Michael has indicated?

The Reader Peter

Icons are not copyrightable, however, the image created by the iconographer is his copyright. Only the artist who created the image may make reproductions of it for sale, by US law. Thus if you make copies of my work and in any way profit from them, you have wronged me. That being said, I do not own the copyright to any iconographic idea I originate. Thus the icon of The Livegiving Tree which I designed may be recreated by any other iconographer.