Are these icons Orthodox?

[Peter]

That he clearly is not.

And what difference does this make?

The Reader Peter

 

[Michael G]

And what difference does this make?

The Reader Peter

I think it makes all the difference that he is clearly lacking in skill in some areas in his work. That and I clearly dislike his heterodox approach to iconography.

 

[The Virginian]

I think it makes all the difference that he is clearly lacking in skill in some areas in his work. That and I clearly dislike his heterodox approach to iconography.

Hmmmm, he does seem to lack a certain skill artistically. Not to mention that the mixing of styles, and saintly subjects, throws one off, more than just a bit.

Do iconographers who're recognized by the main jurisdictions, mix their styes?

 

[Michael G]

Hmmmm, he does seem to lack a certain skill artistically. Not to mention that the mixing of styles, and saintly subjects, throws one off, more than just a bit.

Do iconographers who're recognized by the main jurisdictions, mix their styes?

Most iconographers have one style. Many iconographers will show a minor progression in their work as they improve over time, but to mix styles like this man does is not usual. And to mix saints between the Catholic and Orthodox churches is very problematic.

 

[Shubunkin]

Most iconographers have one style. Many iconographers will show a minor progression in their work as they improve over time, but to mix styles like this man does is not usual. And to mix saints between the Catholic and Orthodox churches is very problematic.

a dysfunctional iconographer!

 

[salve]

Salve,

I'm an artist myself. Where could someone learn to 'write' Iconography?

Peace.

 

[nutroll]

There are a number of iconographers who teach classes on iconography, but to become really proficient would take many classes, and a great deal of time spent practicing. It is rare to find someone who will take on an apprentice, but I still think that it is the best way to learn. It should be noted, however, that being an artist is not necessarily helpful in studying iconography as the methods are very different than what most artists are taught, and can require a great deal of "unlearning" in many cases.

 

[MariaRegina]

There are a number of iconographers who teach classes on iconography, but to become really proficient would take many classes, and a great deal of time spent practicing. It is rare to find someone who will take on an apprentice, but I still think that it is the best way to learn. It should be noted, however, that being an artist is not necessarily helpful in studying iconography as the methods are very different than what most artists are taught, and can require a great deal of "unlearning" in many cases.

Yes, I agree. To see the body of The Terminator superimposed on an Icon of Archangel Michael is frightful, yet some artists do depict "modernized" icons that show Mr. Universe muscles on angels.

 

[Michael G]

There are a number of iconographers who teach classes on iconography, but to become really proficient would take many classes, and a great deal of time spent practicing. It is rare to find someone who will take on an apprentice, but I still think that it is the best way to learn. It should be noted, however, that being an artist is not necessarily helpful in studying iconography as the methods are very different than what most artists are taught, and can require a great deal of "unlearning" in many cases.

Ditto to what nutroll said. I spent years working with my teacher for hours a night on a weekly basis, and doing even more work on my own. And that doesn't include all of the reading I have done as well.

 

[InnerPhyre]

Ok so here comes IP once again playing devil's advocate....

So yea maybe this guy isn't the best artist and perhaps he is working in a way that he should not....

But since when did it become ok for us as Christians to start dragging people through the mud? If you feel this guy is misguided, pray for him. Let's remember that many of us are converts and there were times when we were wandering in darkness as well. Many of us preached heresy. Many of us swore allegiance to schismatic churches. We were deceived but have seen the true light. When you see someone like this man, remember what you once were as well.

 

[Michael G]

Ok so here comes IP once again playing devil's advocate....

So yea maybe this guy isn't the best artist and perhaps he is working in a way that he should not....

But since when did it become ok for us as Christians to start dragging people through the mud? If you feel this guy is misguided, pray for him. Let's remember that many of us are converts and there were times when we were wandering in darkness as well. Many of us preached heresy. Many of us swore allegiance to schismatic churches. We were deceived but have seen the true light. When you see someone like this man, remember what you once were as well.

There is a role as defender of the faith that the iconographer plays, which is made very clear by St. John of Damascus and St. Theodore Studite in their works. Thus if someone is in such a state of flux in their faith (to go from being Byzantine Catholic to Orthodox to Roman Catholic) they should not be writing icons. This is because the iconographer has a role beyond that of being an aritst, the role of teacher of the faith. How can anyone teach the faith if they are not sure what faith they belong to in the first place? Iconography is not about art, it is about prayer and learning from the Church. My own Godfather refused to continue my studies in iconography (he being a very noted iconographer himself) until first he helped me get into discussions with an Orthodox priest and until he sponsored my Chrismation. I don't think anyone is being too hard on this man at all.

 

[Peter]

There is a man who stands 5 feet from me for most services. He can't carry a tune at all, yet he joins in the singing. I am the choir director. I guess I should publicly criticize this mans lack of skill because it is not equal to my own superior talent.
What say ye, Mr. Iconographer?

The Reader Peter

 

[Michael G]

There is a man who stands 5 feet from me for most services. He can't carry a tune at all, yet he joins in the singing. I am the choir director. I guess I should publicly criticize this mans lack of skill because it is not equal to my own superior talent.
What say ye, Mr. Iconographer?

The Reader Peter

I never said my talent was superior. So before you cast stones at me, you should re-read what I have said. I did comment on his skin tones, which could use some work. I am able to publicly criticize his lack of direction in his spiritual life, because by his writing icons of saints of all faiths it is confusing to those who are not educated in the faith enough to know there is a problem with the same person writing icons both of western post-schism "saints" and of Orthodox who openly rejected the papacy and converted from Roman Catholicism to Orthodoxy. At one time the person mentioned website made bost of the fact he was brought up in both the Eastern and Western Faiths. The problem is these faiths are mutually exclusive of each other. You are either one, or the other. There is a major disconnect there.

But being you feel like casting stones at me, I will lay a pile of them at your feet and you may begin to cast them at will.

 

[nutroll]

Although I am as guilty of this as anyone else, I think it is important to remember that iconographers' hands are supposed to be an instrument of the Holy Spirit. Though I think we can debate about what is appropriate and what is not from a theological point of view, we must be careful when we talk about the actual icons themselves. I think it is impossible to say what the iconographer is responsible for, and what was done through the action of the Holy Spirit(except in cases where something becomes blasphemous.) Also, I think that it is important to remember that we are on a public forum. I have read flippant comments about icons I have painted which were hurtful and yet based on someone's lack of understanding. I would not want someone reading my words and being offended. That is why at most, I tend to say that I am not fond of the style, rather than saying that someone lacks skill, or that they are a terrible painter, or any number of other things that I could perhaps say about another iconographer.

 

[InnerPhyre]

There is a role as defender of the faith that the iconographer plays, which is made very clear by St. John of Damascus and St. Theodore Studite in their works. Thus if someone is in such a state of flux in their faith (to go from being Byzantine Catholic to Orthodox to Roman Catholic) they should not be writing icons. This is because the iconographer has a role beyond that of being an aritst, the role of teacher of the faith. How can anyone teach the faith if they are not sure what faith they belong to in the first place? Iconography is not about art, it is about prayer and learning from the Church. My own Godfather refused to continue my studies in iconography (he being a very noted iconographer himself) until first he helped me get into discussions with an Orthodox priest and until he sponsored my Chrismation. I don't think anyone is being too hard on this man at all.

All the more reason to pray for him.

 

[MariaRegina]

There is a man who stands 5 feet from me for most services. He can't carry a tune at all, yet he joins in the singing. I am the choir director. I guess I should publicly criticize this mans lack of skill because it is not equal to my own superior talent.
What say ye, Mr. Iconographer?

The Reader Peter

Just do as most choir directors do and ask the guy (in private) to sing softly so that the others can hear themselves sing. If a person cannot hear the others singing around him/her, then they are singing too loudly.

That seems to work.

p.s. The only reason why I mentioned this particular iconographer is because he advertises on the Internet, on public forums, and gives public speaches. I checked his profile on another site and he didn't indicate his parish church or jurisdiction, but he was speaking at an Orthodox Church. So I thought he was Orthodox. Later when I read his biography he mentioned that he was received into Orthodoxy, but later on it says that he served as a cantor in a Byzantine Catholic Church from 2002-2006. So he wasn't clear as to his church status. Is he still Catholic or did he go back to Orthodoxy?

Therefore, I opened this thread to find out more about him. We can critique his works, can't we? Besides, we need to educate ourselves and others, because some icons like those made at Monastery Icons should not be purchased.

 

[Peter]

Should icons be used for humor and amusement?

The Reader Peter

 

[Michael G]

Should icons be used for humor and amusement?

The Reader Peter

Who said they were?

 

[Peter]

Should they be? That's the question. A simple yes or no will suffice. No one said they were.

The Reader Peter

 

[Michael G]

Should they be? That's the question. A simple yes or no will suffice. No one said they were.

The Reader Peter

No they should not. Like I said, you may cast stones any time you like, Mr. Reader.