Did God Indirectly Cause Job To Suffer, Be Sick, And Be In Poverty?

[DiscipleWhomJesusLoves]

What do so many folks still have an old covenant mentality when it comes to Job?

What's this obession with trying to be identified with Job?

If you insist on seeing youself as a modern Job, then for goodness sake be consistent in your theology -- see youself also being blessed with double at the end of your troubles and living to a ripe old age.

The NT says consider Job's ENDING.

Job longed for a daysman or middle-man. His dream is our reality -- Christ Jesus our Advocate.

Don't understand why Christians talk about Job as though Christ did not die. Their condemnation is just!

 

[JimfromOhio]

What do so many folks still have an old covenant mentality when it comes to Job?

What's this obession with trying to be identified with Job?

If you insist on seeing youself as a modern Job, then for goodness sake be consistent in your theology -- see youself also being blessed with double at the end of your troubles and living to a ripe old age.

The NT says consider Job's ENDING.

Job longed for a daysman or middle-man. His dream is our reality -- Christ Jesus our Advocate.

Don't understand why Christians talk about Job as though Christ did not die. Their condemnation is just!

Let's go to the NEW TESTAMENT where I will list the verses that talks about a Christian's faith during tough situations.

Matthew 13:20-22 (New King James Version)
But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles. Now he who received seed among the thorns is he who hears the word, and the cares of this world and the deceitfulness of riches choke the word, and he becomes unfruitful.

Mark 4:16-18 (NKJV)
These likewise are the ones sown on stony ground who, when they hear the word, immediately receive it with gladness; and they have no root in themselves, and so endure only for a time. Afterward, when tribulation or persecution arises for the word’s sake, immediately they stumble. Now these are the ones sown among thorns; they are the ones who hear the word,

James 1:2-4 (NKJV)
My brethren, count it all joy when you fall into various trials, knowing that the testing of your faith produces patience. But let patience have its perfect work, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking nothing.

Romans 11:17-19 (NKJV)
And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree, do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you.

Ephesians 3:16-18 (NKJV)
that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with might through His Spirit in the inner man, that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; that you, being rooted and grounded in love, may be able to comprehend with all the saints what is the width and length and depth and height—

2 Timothy 4:4-6 (NKJV)
and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables. But you be watchful in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry.

Also, I should point out that Job is mentioned in the New Testament in the book of James which James draws upon the example of Job to comfort the suffering, proving the point that God is merciful. He commends the endurance of Job (Jas. 5:11).

I do agree with you about Jesus. Jesus is the Great Deliverer, through whom I have victory over sin, death and hell. In Christ I have all the power I will ever need. In our spiritual training of the Cross, certain number of distractions are bound to come to each one of us; but if we learn to be inwardly still these can be rendered relatively harmless. Grace of God will enable us to overcome distractions. God's promise is great, but it is as great as we experience spiritual growth from God's perspectives by cultivating the knowledge of God while at the same time cultivate our faith. As we are training for our spiritual growth, we look NOT AT our faith but in Christ of WHO we have faith in, who is THE author and finisher. "Let us run with patience the race that is set before us." (Hebrews 12:1). The Holy Spirit tells us to keep our eyes on Jesus not on others who are also running the race! There are important things each of us should know and understand about our struggles as the faithful people of God. Jesus provides both strong warning and loving encouragement, for there is always the danger of losing the race, but there is also the victor's reward awaiting those who run with patience and endurance.

 

[DiscipleWhomJesusLoves]

Let's go to the NEW TESTAMENT where I will list the verses that talks about a Christian's faith during tough situations.

If you want to be a Job, help yourself.

 

[Questioning Christian]

If you want to be a Job, help yourself.

Personally, I relate a lot to prophet Samuel.

 

[DiscipleWhomJesusLoves]

Personally, I relate a lot to prophet Samuel.

Ah yes, he represents the new cov priesthood whereas Eli typified the old. The new replacing the old is hidden in that story.

Anyway it's better than seeing yourself as a Job.

 

[Questioning Christian]

Ah yes, he represents the new cov priesthood whereas Eli typified the old. The new replacing the old is hidden in that story.

Anyway it's better than seeing yourself as a Job.

Hmm ... never viewed the story of Samuel this way. I was more referring to his sensitivity as a child, his emotional makeup, his prophetic sensitivity, his intercessory nature, his longsuffering with others, his pleading with people to repent with tears, his inability to give up when a person seems lost, his focus on relationships

But what you've stated is very interesting! Never thought of that. I identify with him greatly.

 

[KingZzub]

I am greater than Job or Samuel.

Blessings,
|ZZ|

 

[JimfromOhio]

I am greater than Job or Samuel.

Blessings,
|ZZ|

Isn't that pride?

 

[JimfromOhio]

If you want to be a Job, help yourself.

Never said I wanted to be "a Job". I am living like a Job. There is a big difference that you don't really acknowledge.

I can identify with Andrew (one of the disciples). Andrew is the picture of all those who labor quietly in humble places. Not with eye service as men pleasers but as servants of Christ doing the will of God from the heart. Andrew is not the pillar like Peter, James and John, he is a humbler stone. He could have anticipated the sentiment of the poet Christina Rossetti who wrote: "Give me the lowest place, not that I dare ask for that lowest place, but Thou hast died that I might live and share Thy glory by Thy side. Give me the lowest place or if for me the lowest place is too high, then make one more low where I may sit and see my God and love Him so." That's Andrew. I mean, after all, he was one of the original two called and yet he wasn't in the inner three but it didn't seem to bother him. He was always Peter's brother.

He's one of those rare people who's willing to take second place. One of those rare people who wants to be in support. Or one of those rare people who doesn't mind being hidden as long as the work is done. He is the kind of man that all leaders depend on. He's the kind of person that everyone knows is the backbone of every ministry. The cause of Christ is dependent, beloved, on self-forgetting souls who are content to occupy a small sphere and an obscure place, free from self-seeking ambition and yet he will sit on the throne judging the tribes of Israel.

Daniel Mc Lean, a Scotsman, who has a special affection for Andrew who has become the patron saint of Scotland, writes about his beloved Apostle these words: "Gathering together the traces of character found in Scripture found about Andrew we find neither the writer of an epistle nor the founder of a church nor a leading figure in the apostolic age but simply an intimate disciple of Jesus Christ, ever anxious that others should know the spring of spiritual joy and share the blessing he so highly prized. A man of very moderate endowment, who scarcely redeemed his early promise, simple minded and sympathetic without either dramatic power or heroic spirit. Yet he had that clinging confidence in Christ that brought him into that inner circle of the twelve. A man with deep religious feeling with little power of expression. He was more magnetic than he was electric. Better suited for the quiet walks of life than the stirring thoroughfares. Yes, Andrew is the Apostle of the private life."

 

[Bobber]

You'll get opinions from both sides, but I happen to believe what you speak is truth. God DID bring up the subject of Job, and He was the one who told satan "go for it, just don't touch his soul, that's mine." So, who is ultimately responsible?
God is.

This is an interesting statement you made that God brought up the subject of Job, but he didn't say to anyone prior Job needs this test. All he said was have you considered my servant Job. Interesting thing what if God didn't even bring this up. What if he was silent about Job? Would Satan not want to have attacked Job? We can never know I guess for the scritpure does not say. But it is interesting I think though that it does not say that Job needed this test or trial. It seems to me that God created this world but God because of his love has to allow each of his creation to be faced with the question.

Lets not call it right now a trial or a hard time although it is but perhaps the way that God views the issue is that its really a question being asked of an individual. Will you love God and serve him regardless of your outward surroundings or not. But again its not that this test needs to take place but living in this world it will. Again there is no indication that God thought a test needed to take place. It seems that God allowed it to take place for if he didn't he would no longer have been love. Love must allow an expression or at least an outlet for the other not to serve him. So in no sense of the word was the trial commissioned by God to occur. It just happened because it happened and that is the thought that Satan had at the time.

 

[Trish1947]

Never said I wanted to be "a Job". I am living like a Job. There is a big difference that you don't really acknowledge.

I can identify with Andrew (one of the disciples). Andrew is the picture of all those who labor quietly in humble places. Not with eye service as men pleasers but as servants of Christ doing the will of God from the heart. Andrew is not the pillar like Peter, James and John, he is a humbler stone. He could have anticipated the sentiment of the poet Christina Rossetti who wrote: "Give me the lowest place, not that I dare ask for that lowest place, but Thou hast died that I might live and share Thy glory by Thy side. Give me the lowest place or if for me the lowest place is too high, then make one more low where I may sit and see my God and love Him so." That's Andrew. I mean, after all, he was one of the original two called and yet he wasn't in the inner three but it didn't seem to bother him. He was always Peter's brother.

He's one of those rare people who's willing to take second place. One of those rare people who wants to be in support. Or one of those rare people who doesn't mind being hidden as long as the work is done. He is the kind of man that all leaders depend on. He's the kind of person that everyone knows is the backbone of every ministry. The cause of Christ is dependent, beloved, on self-forgetting souls who are content to occupy a small sphere and an obscure place, free from self-seeking ambition and yet he will sit on the throne judging the tribes of Israel.

Daniel Mc Lean, a Scotsman, who has a special affection for Andrew who has become the patron saint of Scotland, writes about his beloved Apostle these words: "Gathering together the traces of character found in Scripture found about Andrew we find neither the writer of an epistle nor the founder of a church nor a leading figure in the apostolic age but simply an intimate disciple of Jesus Christ, ever anxious that others should know the spring of spiritual joy and share the blessing he so highly prized. A man of very moderate endowment, who scarcely redeemed his early promise, simple minded and sympathetic without either dramatic power or heroic spirit. Yet he had that clinging confidence in Christ that brought him into that inner circle of the twelve. A man with deep religious feeling with little power of expression. He was more magnetic than he was electric. Better suited for the quiet walks of life than the stirring thoroughfares. Yes, Andrew is the Apostle of the private life."

While your lowering yourself if it's not done that the "power of God might rest on me", then it's all for nothing. This thinking brings no deliverance to the captives, no healing to the blind, the infirmed, cancer, or anyother tragedy in a persons life.. Also while your lowering yourself, make sure that you have the truth along with why we do this. While your making yourself of no reputation..make sure it's done that the delivering power may be seen in another persons life, or your own, so when they do see it, we give all the glory to God. But to think lowering yourself without the power of God brings glory to God, it doesn't. Because you have failed to recognize why we lower ourselves, and make ourselves of no reputation. Self effacing through sickness that I might suffer for Him, is not a form of "lowering" yourself. It's done that the "power of God rest on me"..Being afraid of poularity or being reviled, for the Gospels sake is one of those risks no doubt the other Apostles had to deal with. But it didn't prevent them from preaching the Gospel, healing the sick, raising the dead, going from town to town, being seen by everybody. They were willing to suffer that, for the truths sake.

 

[JimfromOhio]

So in no sense of the word was the trial commissioned by God to occur. It just happened because it happened and that is the thought that Satan had at the time.

Umm... are you reading the same Bible that I am reading? God gave Satan permission. Its just that certain groups such as Word of Faith who follows the Word do not acknowledge the interpretation in order to protect their doctrines.

 

[JimfromOhio]

While your lowering yourself if it's not done that the "power of God might rest on me", then it's all for nothing. This thinking brings no deliverance to the captives, no healing to the blind, the infirmed, cancer, or anyother tragedy in a persons life.. Also while your lowering yourself, make sure that you have the truth along with why we do this. While your making yourself of no reputation..make sure it's done that the delivering power may be seen in another persons life, or your own, so when they do see it, we give all the glory to God. But to think lowering yourself without the power of God brings glory to God, it doesn't. Because you have failed to recognize why we lower ourselves, and make ourselves of no reputation. Self effacing through sickness that I might suffer for Him, is not a form of "lowering" yourself. It's done that the "power of God rest on me"..Being afraid of poularity for the Gospels sake is one of those risks I'm sure the other Apostles had to deal with. But it didn't prevent them from preaching the Gospel, healing the sick, raising the dead, going from town to town, being seen by everybody. They were willing to suffer that, for the truths sake.

I don't see where you get this but I see alot of reasoning where you are coming from. Do the words that describe belief actually make up that belief? Can you choose to believe? Can you choose not to? How does belief come? Does your belief have power resident within itself to accomplish the desired end? On the opposite end of a scale from "doubt". Is belief and doubt manifestations of the same substance? Or are they apples and oranges, one effecting the other? Is the lack of belief unbelief? Or is unbelief simply belief in something opposite of what you are desiring? Example: Belief in sickness is unbelief in health & belief in health unbelief in sickness?

As a Christian, we don't need intelligence to decide because we have the Holy Spirit that convicts us to listen rather than focusing on our own pride of reasonings. What does our action (or lack of it) reveal about your faith and mine? The key to holiness is submitting to the Spirit's control in daily life that will enable us to overcome the human nature and live through grace's sufficiency. The key is we are to be trustful faith in Him rather than be trustful in faith. Holiness is our spiritual relationship with God alone.

2 Peter 1:3-11 His divine power has given us everything we need for life and godliness through our knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness. Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires. For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; and to godliness, brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness, love. For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. But if anyone does not have them, he is nearsighted and blind, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins. Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never fall, and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

Through the Word of god, I have learned great importance of spiritual decision-the act of faith (those who understand the concept of faith) by submitting our entire futures to God. Flesh often rules over Spirit when we decide against God's will. A Christian has the responsibility to put his faith in Christ, but God gives him the ability to make that decision through the Holy Spirit. Proverbs 16:33 The lot is cast into the lap, but its every decision is from the LORD. One great example is located in Hebrews 11:24-26 when Moses made a decision to reject comfort and join with his fellow Jews to suffer affliction. Galatians 3:12-14 The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, "The man who does these things will live by them." Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree." He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit. I truly believe that Christians need to understand that true success is to view from God's perspective. The key is to approach life from God's point of view. "But seek first His kingdom and His righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well" (Matthew 6:33) is not about healing but more about God's will and His plans according to each of our lives. We must make God's kingdom and righteousness a priority and leave our happiness up to Him regardless our circumstances. To truly have faith is to suffer and still praise His name, to have difficulties and still know God cares, to be in pain and still remember that one day there will be no pain, to experience trials and still know God is listening, to know that God does not always heal and still believe that He is God.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

Well Ecclisatise is a bummer sometimes. A guy that hates life, but at the end he sees a reason to live. Psalms, no..I see a man of God with like feelings as we do. Very prophetic.
Proverbs, a mans wisdom, but Jesus said a man greater than Solomon is here.
Songs of Solomon?

People who pull raw verses out of Ecclisaties and use them to develop doctrine would do well to actually read the whole book. It is written as the memories of a fallen or apostate preacher. It is offered to us as an example of human religion and logic applied from a sense knowledge point of view.
I always cringe when someone tries to prove anything by cold quotes from this book.

 

[JimfromOhio]

People who pull raw verses out of Ecclisaties and use them to develop doctrine would do well to actually read the whole book. It is written as the memories of a fallen or apostate preacher. It is offered to us as an example of human religion and logic applied from a sense knowledge point of view. I always cringe when someone tries to prove anything by cold quotes from this book.

Cold quotes of the Bible? I thought THE WORD is all quotes of the Bible. Not one verse is excluded. Every word is God's. Anyway, people say these things to protect their doctrines. This statement also similar to Jesus' complains to the Pharisees. Jesus said to the Pharisees, “Why do you break the command of God for the sake of your doctrines?”

 

[Trish1947]

Cold quotes of the Bible? I thought THE WORD is all quotes of the Bible. Not one verse is excluded. Every word is God's. Anyway, people say these things to protect their doctrines. This statement also similar to Jesus' complains to the Pharisees. Jesus said to the Pharisees, “Why do you break the command of God for the sake of your doctrines?”

Most of the time with help from the Holy Spirit, you will find in some places, that all things are truely stated, but not necessarily stated truely.
Example if we only had the discourse of Peter to go by, we would accept that what Peter said about "let everything be Yea or Nay, lest you fall into condemnation" would be true. But when you go over to Paul he basicly is disputing what Peter said, "that everything is yes and amen to the glory of God the Father." It's decision time on what is true. Some things that Peter did or said was straigtened out by Paul, and Peter appreciated it. But it was written anyway.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

Cold quotes of the Bible? I thought THE WORD is all quotes of the Bible. Not one verse is excluded. Every word is God's. Anyway, people say these things to protect their doctrines. This statement also similar to Jesus' complains to the Pharisees. Jesus said to the Pharisees, “Why do you break the command of God for the sake of your doctrines?”

Here is a good quote.

Luke 22:57
57 And he denied him, saying, Woman, I know him not.

So I guess Peter did not know Jesus huh?

Guess what Jim... sometimes thinking is a good thing!

 

[JimfromOhio]

Most of the time with help from the Holy Spirit, you will find in some places, that all things are truely stated, but not necessarily stated truely.
Example if we only had the discourse of Peter to go by, we would accept that what Peter said about "let everything be Yea or Nay, lest you fall into condemnation" would be true. But when you go over to Paul he basicly is disputing what Peter said, "that everything is yes and amen to the glory of God the Father." It's decision time on what is true. Somethings that Peter did or said was straigtend out by Paul, and Peter appreciated it. But it was written anyway.

Before New Testament came along, Old Testament and traditions were relied on. Now that God have provided the completed Holy Scriptures that have been AGREED by the "CHURCH". Holy Scripture in the FINAL authority. We are to Honor the Word (not the Bible). Studying the scriptures requires the Holy Spirit which is inward, not outward. The Holy Spirit is within us believers, Christ dwells in our hearts, and "Christ in you, the hope of glory" (Colossians 1:27) is the burning core of the Christian faith.

If we studied carefully between Paul and Peter as well as Paul and Barnabas, we would understand better why they disagree.

 

[JimfromOhio]

Guess what Jim... sometimes thinking is a good thing!

Thinking can be dangerous. You can have GREAT knowledge but if you don't have spiritual wisdom, your knowledge is worthless. The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge. Proverbs 19:2 Titus 1:1-2 The knowledge of the truth that leads to godliness— a faith and knowledge resting on the hope of eternal life, which God. Proverbs 2:10 For wisdom will enter your heart, and knowledge will be pleasant to your soul. Proverbs 18:15 The heart of the discerning acquires knowledge; the ears of the wise seek it out. Proverbs 23:12 Apply your heart to instruction and your ears to words of knowledge. We are to know God and His Word from our hearts. Isaiah 11:2 The Spirit of the LORD will rest on him— the Spirit of wisdom and of understanding, the Spirit of counsel and of power, the Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD - 1 Corinthians 12:8 To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit. Proverbs 2:10 For wisdom will enter your heart, and knowledge will be pleasant to your soul. Proverbs 18:15 The heart of the discerning acquires knowledge; the ears of the wise seek it out. Proverbs 23:12 Apply your heart to instruction and your ears to words of knowledge.

People can reason all they want as LONG as they don't contradict the Word of God. Especially when they reason without any support from the Word of God.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

Thinking can be dangerous.

That about sums it up.
You must have gotten that from Ecc:

Ecclesiastes 7:16
16 So don't knock yourself out being good, and don't go overboard being wise. Believe me, you won't get anything out of it.