Did God Indirectly Cause Job To Suffer, Be Sick, And Be In Poverty?

[probinson]

Where does it "clearly say" that God gave Satan permission to afflict Job?

Job 1:12
And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.

Job 2:6
And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, he is in thine hand; but save his life.
​

 

[TreeOfLife]

Where does it "clearly say" that God gave Satan permission to afflict Job?

Job 1:12​

And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.​

Job 2:6​

And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, he is in thine hand; but save his life.​

Does the word "behold" mean "look" or "you have permission"?

It can't mean both. (BTW, my reference material says it means "look". )

 

[DiscipleWhomJesusLoves]

Again, they are talking as if Jesus did not die. No wonder the confusion.

 

[TreeOfLife]

Again, they are talking as if Jesus did not die. No wonder the confusion.

Are we to be disciples of Job, or of Jesus?

 

[probinson]

Does the word "behold" mean "look" or "you have permission"?

It can't mean both. (BTW, my reference material says it means "look". )

From studylight.org:

Behold: idou - [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Geneva] behold, see, lo

Incidentally, "behold" in Job 1 and 2 is the same word as it is here:
[/FONT]

Genesis 1:29
And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.
​

 

[JimfromOhio]

Where does it "clearly say" that God gave Satan permission to afflict Job?

Job 1:12
And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.

Job 2:6
And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, he is in thine hand; but save his life.
​

Read in RED. If you want to be literal about finding the word "Permission".

Job 1:12:
NIV....The LORD said to Satan, "Very well, then, everything he has is in your hands, but on the man himself do not lay a finger." Then Satan went out from the presence of the LORD.

NAS.....Then the LORD said to Satan, "Behold, all that he has is in your power, only do not put forth your hand on him." So Satan departed from the presence of the LORD.

The Message: God replied, "We'll see. Go ahead—do what you want with all that is his. Just don't hurt him." Then Satan left the presence of God.

NLT......."All right, you may test him," the LORD said to Satan. "Do whatever you want with everything he possesses, but don't harm him physically." So Satan left the LORD's presence.

ESV.......And the LORD said to Satan, "Behold, all that he has is in your hand. Only against him do not stretch out your hand." So Satan went out from the presence of the LORD.

Job 2:6
NIV......The LORD said to Satan, "Very well, then, he is in your hands; but you must spare his life."

NAS......So the LORD said to Satan, "Behold, he is in your power, only spare his life."

The Message......God said, "All right. Go ahead—you can do what you like with him. But mind you, don't kill him."

NLT......All right, do with him as you please," the LORD said to Satan. "But spare his life."

ESV......And the LORD said to Satan, "Behold, he is in your hand; only spare his life."

If some can't see what God said, then they are blinded by their own doctrines.

 

[JimfromOhio]

Are we to be disciples of Job, or of Jesus?

We care disciples of Christ. Becoming a disciple, following Jesus Christ requires personal cost, giving up your selfish "me" and become like Christ. Jesus might have grieved over His Cost of Discipleship requirements, but He never ran after them to try to win them with rosy promises. Remember the story about the rich ruler? Jesus looked after the rich young ruler as he walked away, but Jesus did not follow him or attempt to coerce him. Jesus wants people make their own moral choices; and Christ knew this and permitted rich ruler to go his own chosen way. Jesus is saying that He cannot do our repenting for us. He died for our sins, now it is up to us to pick up the cross.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

If Satan do not need permission, then God is not control of this creations.

Satan, like men... has free will to do whatever he can get away with. There is not a single verse in scripture that says satan needs, asks for, or is given permission by God to do what he does. There are instances where God limits him... but the permission to do is simply standing.

What about all those people whom Jesus healed that were "oppressed of the devil?" Do you think God gave the devil permission to oppress all these folks only to have His will countermaded by Jesus?

What about when Jesus rebuked the waves and the sea? Do you think Jesus rebuked God's actions here?

And what about the concept of a hedge?
Why would someone need a hedge if satan could only attack with God's permission? And if God gave permission to attack, what use would any hedge do anyway? Is a "hedge" going to twart the will of God? I do not think so. This would render the entire concept of "hedges" moot. Not only hedges, but the entire concept of protection and shielding. Why would there be shields or protections of any sort if in fact God was in total control of creation at all times? What would their purpose be? Satan could not afflict unless God gave "permission," and so these concepts would be moot. Useless.
What are they protecting people from if no permissions were granted, and what good would they be if it was?

It is simply too full of holes.

The idea that God is in total control of every atom of the universe just does not jibe with scripture. He is aware of it all to be sure. He CAN assume control any part of it He wants... that is a fact. But the idea that the devil, demons, and all men are puppets and that ALL their actions are the results of His pulling strings is not only unscriptural, but obviously wrong to anyone who chooses to look out their window at the world around them.

Yes, God CAN exert control over any part of the universe.. but that control is intervention, and not piloting.

 

[probinson]

Read in RED. If you want to be literal about finding the word "Permission".

Job 1:12:
NIV....The LORD said to Satan, "Very well, then, everything he has is in your hands, but on the man himself do not lay a finger." Then Satan went out from the presence of the LORD.

NAS.....Then the LORD said to Satan, "Behold, all that he has is in your power, only do not put forth your hand on him." So Satan departed from the presence of the LORD.

The Message: God replied, "We'll see. Go ahead—do what you want with all that is his. Just don't hurt him." Then Satan left the presence of God.

NLT......."All right, you may test him," the LORD said to Satan. "Do whatever you want with everything he possesses, but don't harm him physically." So Satan left the LORD's presence.

ESV.......And the LORD said to Satan, "Behold, all that he has is in your hand. Only against him do not stretch out your hand." So Satan went out from the presence of the LORD.

Job 2:6
NIV......The LORD said to Satan, "Very well, then, he is in your hands; but you must spare his life."

NAS......So the LORD said to Satan, "Behold, he is in your power, only spare his life."

The Message......God said, "All right. Go ahead—you can do what you like with him. But mind you, don't kill him."

NLT......All right, do with him as you please," the LORD said to Satan. "But spare his life."

ESV......And the LORD said to Satan, "Behold, he is in your hand; only spare his life."

If some can't see what God said, then they are blinded by their own doctrines.

The bottom line is, the Bible says "Behold". It does not say, "Go ahead and test Him". It does not say "Do with Him as you please", it does not say "Very well then". It says BEHOLD, which incidentally, simply means LOOK. You can pull paraphrases up to support your claim if you so desire. The bottom line is, God said BEHOLD, nothing less, and nothing more. To arrive at the conclusion that permission was granted is to read into the text what simply is not there.

If some can't see what God said, then they are blinded by their own doctrines.

 

[JimfromOhio]

The bottom line is, the Bible says "Behold". It does not say, "Go ahead and test Him". It does not say "Do with Him as you please", it does not say "Very well then". It says BEHOLD, which incidentally, simply means LOOK. You can pull paraphrases up to support your claim if you so desire. The bottom line is, God said BEHOLD, nothing less, and nothing more. To arrive at the conclusion that permission was granted is to read into the text what simply is not there.

If some can't see what God said, then they are blinded by their own doctrines.

There are 13 definitions of "Behold" in the Hebrew Language.
01887 behold ah he'
02005 behold !h hen
02009 Behold hnnh hinneh
02372 behold hzx chazah
0431 behold wla 'aluw (Aramaic)
05027 behold tbn nabat
06822 behold hpc tsaphah
0718 behold wra 'aruw (Aramaic)
07200 behold har ra'ah
07207 beholding hwar ra'avah
07212 beholding tyar r@'iyth
07789 behold rwX shuwr
07891 behold ryX shiyr

Pick one definition that ties with the two verses you have listed and let me know what you find out.

 

[probinson]

Courtesy of Dids post earlier in this thread:

(ASV) And Jehovah said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thy hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of Jehovah.

(Darby) And Jehovah said to Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy hand; only upon himself put not forth thy hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of Jehovah.

(DRB) Then the Lord said to Satan: Behold, all that he hath is in thy hand: only put not forth thy hand upon his person. And Satan went forth from the presence of the Lord.

(HNV) The LORD said to Hasatan, "Behold, all that he has is in your power. Only on himself don't put forth your hand." So Hasatan went forth from the presence of the LORD.

(KJV) And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.

(KJV+) And the LORD3068 said559 unto413 Satan,7854 Behold,2009 all3605 that834 he hath is in thy power;3027 only7535 upon413 himself put not forth408, 7971 thine hand.3027 So Satan7854 went forth3318 from4480, 5973 the presence6440 of the LORD.3068

(KJVA) And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.

(LITV) And Jehovah said to Satan, Behold, all that is his is in your hand! Only, do not lay your hand on him. And Satan went out from the face of Jehovah.

(MKJV) And Jehovah said to Satan, Behold, all that he has is in your power. Only do not lay your hand upon him. And Satan went forth from the presence of Jehovah.

(NASB) Then the LORD said to Satan, "Behold, all that he has is in your power, only do not put forth your hand on him." So Satan departed from the presence of the LORD.

(WEB) Yahweh said to Satan, "Behold, all that he has is in your power. Only on himself don't put forth your hand." So Satan went forth from the presence of Yahweh.

(Webster) And the LORD said to Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thy hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.

(YLT) And Jehovah saith unto the Adversary, `Lo, all that he hath is in thy hand, only unto him put not forth thy hand.' And the Adversary goeth out from the presence of Jehovah.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

Go back and look at many of the instances where this same word "behold" is used in the OT. It is never used in itself as the awarding of permission. It always and only means "look."

"Behold, the man"

This is not a statement that is giving that man permission to be a man. It is just a statement telling us that the man IS a man, and to look at him.

 

[JimfromOhio]

Satan, like men... has free will to do whatever he can get away with. There is not a single verse in scripture that says satan needs, asks for, or is given permission by God to do what he does. There are instances where God limits him... but the permission to do is simply standing.

What about all those people whom Jesus healed that were "oppressed of the devil?" Do you think God gave the devil permission to oppress all these folks only to have His will countermaded by Jesus?

What about when Jesus rebuked the waves and the sea? Do you think Jesus rebuked God's actions here?

And what about the concept of a hedge?
Why would someone need a hedge if satan could only attack with God's permission? And if God gave permission to attack, what use would any hedge do anyway? Is a "hedge" going to twart the will of God? I do not think so. This would render the entire concept of "hedges" moot. Not only hedges, but the entire concept of protection and shielding. Why would there be shields or protections of any sort if in fact God was in total control of creation at all times? What would their purpose be? Satan could not afflict unless God gave "permission," and so these concepts would be moot. Useless.
What are they protecting people from if no permissions were granted, and what good would they be if it was?

It is simply too full of holes.

The idea that God is in total control of every atom of the universe just does not jibe with scripture. He is aware of it all to be sure. He CAN assume control any part of it He wants... that is a fact. But the idea that the devil, demons, and all men are puppets and that ALL their actions are the results of His pulling strings is not only unscriptural, but obviously wrong to anyone who chooses to look out their window at the world around them.

Yes, God CAN exert control over any part of the universe.. but that control is intervention, and not piloting.

From a human reasoning, it is too many holes. How could a human mind comprehend? Learn this thought from Solomon when he thought he knew everything but realized that he didn't. He may be the wisest person in the world to this day, but he was never wiser than God. Ecclesiastes 8:17 I saw all that God has done. No one can comprehend what goes on under the sun. Despite all his efforts to search it out, man cannot discover its meaning. Even if a wise man claims he knows, he cannot really comprehend it. God is in control and He will allow us to have freewill only if its according to His will. We have to understand that God controls everything including our freewill. The "freewill" is always subject to God's sovereignty and His divine freewill. The key is that God is ALWAYS in control even in our own freewill. Jesus gave an example about God's will when He revealed His holiness when He cried in His agony, "Not my will, but thine, be done" (Luke 22:42). Here two wills, the lower will of the human who was God and the higher will of the God who was Man, and the higher will always prevail. So, by following Christ's example, we are to follow God's will and decisions. Every Christian must decide whether they will us their liberty to decide on their moral decisions. We are free, but our freedom must prove a source of real temptation of this world. We are free from the chains of sin because by grace we are saved by Christ that we are forgiven. It is God's gift that we have the complete spiritual freedom and loving dependence upon one another.

 

[TreeOfLife]

The bottom line is, the Bible says "Behold". It does not say, "Go ahead and test Him". It does not say "Do with Him as you please", it does not say "Very well then". It says BEHOLD, which incidentally, simply means LOOK. You can pull paraphrases up to support your claim if you so desire. The bottom line is, God said BEHOLD, nothing less, and nothing more. To arrive at the conclusion that permission was granted is to read into the text what simply is not there.

If some can't see what God said, then they are blinded by their own doctrines.

Amen P.

 

[Trish1947]

Read in RED. If you want to be literal about finding the word "Permission".

Job 1:12:
NIV....The LORD said to Satan, "Very well, then, everything he has is in your hands, but on the man himself do not lay a finger." Then Satan went out from the presence of the LORD.

NAS.....Then the LORD said to Satan, "Behold, all that he has is in your power, only do not put forth your hand on him." So Satan departed from the presence of the LORD.

The Message: God replied, "We'll see. Go ahead—do what you want with all that is his. Just don't hurt him." Then Satan left the presence of God.

NLT......."All right, you may test him," the LORD said to Satan. "Do whatever you want with everything he possesses, but don't harm him physically." So Satan left the LORD's presence.

ESV.......And the LORD said to Satan, "Behold, all that he has is in your hand. Only against him do not stretch out your hand." So Satan went out from the presence of the LORD.

Job 2:6
NIV......The LORD said to Satan, "Very well, then, he is in your hands; but you must spare his life."

NAS......So the LORD said to Satan, "Behold, he is in your power, only spare his life."

The Message......God said, "All right. Go ahead—you can do what you like with him. But mind you, don't kill him."

NLT......All right, do with him as you please," the LORD said to Satan. "But spare his life."

ESV......And the LORD said to Satan, "Behold, he is in your hand; only spare his life."

If some can't see what God said, then they are blinded by their own doctrines.

Behold does not mean.. "Well allright"
Behold does not mean.."Go ahead"
Behold does not mean.."you may test him"

Behold, "all that he has, in in your hands"..is a statement of fact of the condition of Job. It was Jobs condition before Satan even went before God.

And Satan took it one step further in his attack, by being disobediant, and did cover Job with boils when God told him not to touch Job. Where was Gods soverienty at this point, if Satan didn't have certain rights over mankind?
My KJV doesn't even say "but save his life".. it says "but upon Himself do not touch him."..

 

[JimfromOhio]

Where does it "clearly say" that God gave Satan permission to afflict Job?

Job 1:12
And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.

Job 2:6
And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, he is in thine hand; but save his life.
​

Behold also means "observe".

If "Behold" is the only word focused, tell me what the following words really mean after "behold". all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. he is in thine hand; but save his life.

How else did Job suffered? Directly from God or indirectly from Satan with God's permission? Definition of "Indirectly" basically means: not direct: as deviating from a direct line or course, not directly aimed at or achieved. Satan was direct hit on Job with God's permission. Then they both, God and Satan observe Job's reaction to his sufferings.

 

[JimfromOhio]

And Satan took it one step further in his attack, and did cover Job with boils when God told him not to touch his body. Where was Gods soverienty at this point, if Satan didn't have certain rights over mankind.
My KJV doesn't even say "but save his life".. it says "but upon Himself do not touch him."..

The first attack, Satan didn't touch Job at all because God told him not to touch him. "all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand."

The second attack, God said not kill Job but didn't say not to touch him. "he is in thine hand; but save his life."

 

[JimfromOhio]

Courtesy of Dids post earlier in this thread:

(ASV) And Jehovah said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thy hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of Jehovah.

(Darby) And Jehovah said to Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy hand; only upon himself put not forth thy hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of Jehovah.

(DRB) Then the Lord said to Satan: Behold, all that he hath is in thy hand: only put not forth thy hand upon his person. And Satan went forth from the presence of the Lord.

(HNV) The LORD said to Hasatan, "Behold, all that he has is in your power. Only on himself don't put forth your hand." So Hasatan went forth from the presence of the LORD.

(KJV) And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.

(KJV+) And the LORD3068 said559 unto413 Satan,7854 Behold,2009 all3605 that834 he hath is in thy power;3027 only7535 upon413 himself put not forth408, 7971 thine hand.3027 So Satan7854 went forth3318 from4480, 5973 the presence6440 of the LORD.3068

(KJVA) And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.

(LITV) And Jehovah said to Satan, Behold, all that is his is in your hand! Only, do not lay your hand on him. And Satan went out from the face of Jehovah.

(MKJV) And Jehovah said to Satan, Behold, all that he has is in your power. Only do not lay your hand upon him. And Satan went forth from the presence of Jehovah.

(NASB) Then the LORD said to Satan, "Behold, all that he has is in your power, only do not put forth your hand on him." So Satan departed from the presence of the LORD.

(WEB) Yahweh said to Satan, "Behold, all that he has is in your power. Only on himself don't put forth your hand." So Satan went forth from the presence of Yahweh.

(Webster) And the LORD said to Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thy hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.

(YLT) And Jehovah saith unto the Adversary, `Lo, all that he hath is in thy hand, only unto him put not forth thy hand.' And the Adversary goeth out from the presence of Jehovah.

Yes.. I am reading and seeing that God gave Satan permission.

 

[Strong in Him]

Satan, like men... has free will to do whatever he can get away with. There is not a single verse in scripture that says satan needs, asks for, or is given permission by God to do what he does. There are instances where God limits him... but the permission to do is simply standing.

Except Luke 20:31;
"Simon, Simon, Satan has asked to sift you as wheat."

This theory may be "full of holes" but so is the alternative - that Satan went ahead and did it without God knowing or noticing. This means that the devil sometimes gets the better of God; there are times when he has more power. So God isn't ALL mighty. He created the universe and the devil - who was an angel before he fell - but somehow his creation has got to be more powerful than he is.

I'd rather follow and worship a God who knows everything that goes on and has control over what happens, even if things happen that I don't like or understand, than a god who sometimes takes his eye off the ball and lets someone else temporarily control his world.

 

[JimfromOhio]

This is like Job sitting listening to his friends regarding his situations mentioned in the Book of Job. No matter how ridiculous and unscriptural it may be, no matter how these critical Christians who will not without question accept the opposite doctrine. Many people have a wrong concept of the Story of Job and didn't understand the theology behind the story. Job's friends acted like God's prophets sent to straighten out Job's life. They claimed to know more than Job did. Not all of their doctrines are false but they used their doctrines wrongly. Job didn't sinned and he was not opposing God but at the same time, Job was trying to understand why his trials were happening.

Job knew in his own heart that his friends were wrong. Finally, after listening to his friends for so long (20 plus chapters), in Job 21:27, Job said, "Behold, I know your thoughts, and the devices which ye wrongfully imagine against me." There are many of those who believes such doctrines. There are so many Elphazs, Bildads, and Zophars. God allowed Satan to inflict Job (i.e. boil which is a skin disease). The fact of Job's story is that there are no answers when disaster strikes. We can't explain everything. Faith is to keep trusting God no matter what happens.