Did God Indirectly Cause Job To Suffer, Be Sick, And Be In Poverty?

[JimB]

Are we going to ignore the goodness of God to elevate ourselves to perfection?

If you continue on with your devil description of God, He must at some point regect you.

Do you understand your own evil admonitions?

Tell me, Tree, since you are so superior to me, how exactly would you interpret Job 42.11?

Note: This ought to be good for a laugh if it is even responded to.

~Jim

 

[JimB]

What? I clearly refuted your arguement and this is your response?

Get a grip man.

You “clearly refuted” something I said? Well, that’s a first. But you’ll have to remind me what it was since I cannot find it in this thread.?

~Jim

 

[probinson]

I would like to repent.


I have been arguing (pointlessly) about the word "behold" and whether permission was granted or even needed for at least 2 days now. Actually, none of that even really matters. I got tied up in the argument and trying to prove my point so much that I glossed over the real point of the story of Job. For this, I repent.

The lesson that we should all learn from Job is this:

Job 9:32-35
32 For he is not a man, as I am, that I should answer him, and we should come together in judgment.
​

33 Neither is there any daysman betwixt us, that might lay his hand upon us both. ​

34 Let him take his rod away from me, and let not his fear terrify me: 35 Then would I speak, and not fear him; but it is not so with me.​

Job did not have a daysman. We do. His name is Jesus. That is the moral of the story. It was not so for Job, but it is for you and me.

 

[Trish1947]

I would like to repent.


I have been arguing (pointlessly) about the word "behold" and whether permission was granted or even needed for at least 2 days now. Actually, none of that even really matters. I got tied up in the argument and trying to prove my point so much that I glossed over the real point of the story of Job. For this, I repent.

The lesson that we should all learn from Job is this:

Job 9:32-35
32 For he is not a man, as I am, that I should answer him, and we should come together in judgment.
​

33 Neither is there any daysman betwixt us, that might lay his hand upon us both. ​

34 Let him take his rod away from me, and let not his fear terrify me: 35 Then would I speak, and not fear him; but it is not so with me.​

Job did not have a daysman. We do. His name is Jesus. That is the moral of the story. It was not so for Job, but it is for you and me.

Amen..

 

[JimB]

I would like to repent.


I have been arguing (pointlessly) about the word "behold" and whether permission was granted or even needed for at least 2 days now. Actually, none of that even really matters. I got tied up in the argument and trying to prove my point so much that I glossed over the real point of the story of Job. For this, I repent.

The lesson that we should all learn from Job is this:
Job 9:32-35
32 For he is not a man, as I am, that I should answer him, and we should come together in judgment.
33 Neither is there any daysman betwixt us, that might lay his hand upon us both.
34 Let him take his rod away from me, and let not his fear terrify me: 35 Then would I speak, and not fear him; but it is not so with me.

Job did not have a daysman. We do. His name is Jesus. That is the moral of the story. It was not so for Job, but it is for you and me.

Good, Pete. Thank you and thanks to this thread, I am developing a new appreciation for the Book of Job and am discovering, thanks to you and others, that there is a whole lot more to this marvelous book than I had previously thought.

~Jim

 

[JimfromOhio]

Good, Pete. Thank you and thanks to this thread, I am developing a new appreciation for the Book of Job and am discovering, thanks to you and others, that there is a whole lot more to this marvelous book than I had previously thought.

~Jim

Job is a great book to read. The book reminds me of us today.

 

[razzelflabben]

Actually, a more appropriate analogy would be "Look, that is my house. Don't take my TV." Now if you think that I've just given you permission to walk into my house and steal everything but my TV, I pray you never become a lawyer.

Now, I will accept this but you must also understand that you are talking to a known and convicted theif when you make the claim. Which is the same as God here, He talks to a known assasine and says, Look this man is a great man, do anything you like only don't hurt him. So you take a known theif and say here is my house, take anything you want, just leave my tx. Hummm? and the theif interperts that how exactly? Maybe instead you are saying God is a fool for showing satan Job?

Agreed. The hedge was there, and then it wasn't. So? The Bible does not say that God removed the hedge. You must read that into the text to come to that conclusion. We can debate all day long where the hedge went, but the plain reading of scripture simply does not say.

Agreed, but what we do have that you are missing is according to satan, God made the hedge. Would seem to me that it would be a huge streatch to assume that satan removed what God placed. Seems to me that if God places His protection, it would be up to God to remove it. Just some logic.

Criminy. "All the time". Real specific.

I so wish that if people were going to make accusations that they would do with corroborating evidence to back up said accusation. Otherwise, you are running perilously close to bearing false witness against people.

Havn't seen otherwise yet, review some of the threads, I realive you cant grasp it because you believe otherwise, but the evidence is all over the place. I would be thrilled beyond belief to talk to a wofer and find a consistant discussion of scripture rather than always but that is another discussion.

 

[razzelflabben]

Exactly my point Razzy!

No, kitty does not ask permission. Yes, she has permission to scratch without my permission. She has "standing" scratch rights. And yes, I may intrude into her scratching and place limits: only the dog if he chases you, and only mice if you can catch them.

But they do have permission and they can be corrected and changed. Point is until recently you have been denying Satan had the permission. At least we have finnaly come to the beginnings of an agreement. See how far we get.

Lets apply that same logic to satan, God and Job:

Satan (like kitty) has standing, pre-existing permission to get anyone he wants.

Yet there was a hedge that was a problem for him. Let's say, a door or window that keeps kitty from you. Thus prevents her from her right to scratch.

Satan (like kitty) does not need to ask permission to get his victims when they are within his grasp, any more than kitty needs "special" permission to to scratch the dog when the he corners her.

Right, but that hedge is the problem and satan sees it as such as well. So kitty is on one side of the window and the dog is on the other. Satan sees Job but Job is protected by this troublsome hedge.

So you agree with me that satan did not need permission from God to do what he wanted with Job any more than kitty needs permission from me to scratch the mean ol' dog?

Satan needed the hedge moved just as kitty needs the window opened. Now I would guess that someone else could open the window, but seems to me that if you shut it andyou are the authority, only you would be allowed to open that window. God is the authority, according to satan God placed that hedge, so it would seem logical to conclude that the hedge could only be removed by God/God's authority. Now if you remove the problematic window, aren't you now giving kitty permission to scratch?

If so, we are on the same page. Satan did not ask God for permission to get Job because permission already existed! Therefore no permission was granted AT THAT TIME. It did not have to be. He already had it.

ASking permission is nothing to the story.
1.One does not have to ask permission for it to be granted
2.Permission doesn't have to be stated it can be implied.
3.Satan's permission was limited and God removed the limits, it is still permission. (God removing the limits here is referring to God's command not the knit picky arguement of who removed the hedge)

So "look, all he has is in your hands" is not a granting of permission.. it is merely a statement of fact.
All satan had was within satan's power... in this case, it was available to satan because there was in fact NO hedge.

You keep repeating this but overlooking the rest of the statement. Why? they are part of the same sentence and thought.

Why did God inform on Job regarding the existence or absence of a hedge?

He said the above words merely to point out to satan that his statement: "Job only worships you because of the hedge you have around him."
God was pointing out "NO, there is no hedge! Take a look (behold!) all he has is (in fact) within your power. Your accusation about a "hedge" is incorrect. Job is worshipping without the existence of a hedge."

Now I might be able to accept this interpretation except that satan sees the hedge as a problem. I don't think anyone would know what power satan has more that satan himself would know, unless maybe God. So we have satan saying, this hedge is a problem and you coming along and saying see, satan doesn't even know what he is allowed to do. I have 5 children, everyone of them tests their boundries to see what they can get away with. When I taught in school and day care, they all did the same thing. Do you honestly think that satan didn't push the boundries enough to know what he could and could not do/get away with. Yet he says this pesky hedge is a problem, I can't do all I want because you fix all his problems for him. What an amazing concept, that God gives satan more power than satan knows he has. I'm speachless, I really hope that isn't what you believe.

This all makes pure and simple common sense once we rid ourselves of this old fashion mindset that satan needed permission and God granted it. It was not, and He did not. He did not have to... it was already there!

Quite frankly, if I doubted even for one second that God wasn't more more powerful and in control of even satan, I couldn't believe in God.

It is circular reasoning to say:
"He needed permission because God gave permission because He needed permission because God gave permission..."

I didn't say that so I will assume you intended this for a different poster.

 

[probinson]

Now, I will accept this but you must also understand that you are talking to a known and convicted theif when you make the claim. Which is the same as God here, He talks to a known assasine and says, Look this man is a great man, do anything you like only don't hurt him. So you take a known theif and say here is my house, take anything you want, just leave my tx. Hummm? and the theif interperts that how exactly? Maybe instead you are saying God is a fool for showing satan Job?

God did not say DO anything you like, only don't hurt Him. God said all He has IS in your power.

Neither did I in my statement say "take anything you want". You're adding to my words to try and make your point. What I actually said was "Look here is my house. Don't take my TV."

Agreed, but what we do have that you are missing is according to satan, God made the hedge.

The Bible also says that the devil is the father of lies, and that the truth is not in him at all. I don't know that I'd take anything "according to Satan" to the bank.

Havn't seen otherwise yet, review some of the threads, I realive you cant grasp it because you believe otherwise, but the evidence is all over the place. I would be thrilled beyond belief to talk to a wofer and find a consistant discussion of scripture rather than always but that is another discussion.

More sweeping generalizations. If it is truly, as you say, "all over the place", it shouldn't be hard to present one instance.

 

[razzelflabben]

Now if God is giving permission case by case, for Satan to rob kill and destroy, then we would have to ask God why wasn't He watching. Or was he referring that the goodman is us as believers? We put up the hedges.

Several people have over the years equated me with Job, something I am uncomfortable with, but a fact none the less. Now here is what I can tell you from that perspective. There was a time in my life when God was very vocal and showed love, mercy, grace, strength, etc. in abundance. I could do almost/if not anything and it would come out okay. Then came a time in which nothing went right. I sought God, I longed to hear His voice, I couldn't understand. I prayed that if it was sin, God would reveal it to me and no amount of searching revealed sin. The "church" (body of believers) blamed me, sin, etc. And I can not say in words how hard it is to be blamed for what is not mine, or to love a vocal God when He remains silent, yet for years now, the greatest fear in my life has been my reality, God has been silent. Recently, He has begun talking again and with great anticipation and fear I look forward to the future and the day. But the one truth that I have from all of this that relates to this post, is that God allowed these things to happen, not because of anything I did or didn't do, but because He is God. (amazing it's the same lesson Job learned isn't it?) And when we learn to trust God the knowledge that He controls even satan's attacks is comforting because it means just as the word says, that everything and anything that happens will be small enough that I can handle it. If I didn't understand that, I couldn't sit here with you right now and say God is good and loving and powerful and kind and my provider, etc. In fact, if I didn't understand that, I would have been dead long ago. I can only say that today, because I know in my heart that satan can do no more than God allows him to do. Read Job as you will, the truth is in the entire bible, Job is just a summary of such.

 

[TreeOfLife]

Several people have over the years equated me with Job, something I am uncomfortable with, but a fact none the less. Now here is what I can tell you from that perspective. There was a time in my life when God was very vocal and showed love, mercy, grace, strength, etc. in abundance. I could do almost/if not anything and it would come out okay. Then came a time in which nothing went right. I sought God, I longed to hear His voice, I couldn't understand. I prayed that if it was sin, God would reveal it to me and no amount of searching revealed sin. The "church" (body of believers) blamed me, sin, etc. And I can not say in words how hard it is to be blamed for what is not mine, or to love a vocal God when He remains silent, yet for years now, the greatest fear in my life has been my reality, God has been silent. Recently, He has begun talking again and with great anticipation and fear I look forward to the future and the day. But the one truth that I have from all of this that relates to this post, is that God allowed these things to happen, not because of anything I did or didn't do, but because He is God. (amazing it's the same lesson Job learned isn't it?) And when we learn to trust God the knowledge that He controls even satan's attacks is comforting because it means just as the word says, that everything and anything that happens will be small enough that I can handle it. If I didn't understand that, I couldn't sit here with you right now and say God is good and loving and powerful and kind and my provider, etc. In fact, if I didn't understand that, I would have been dead long ago. I can only say that today, because I know in my heart that satan can do no more than God allows him to do. Read Job as you will, the truth is in the entire bible, Job is just a summary of such.

Bravo for being honest about why you believe what you believe. I may disagree with your conclusions, but I applaud you for your openess. Thank you.

 

[razzelflabben]

I would like to repent.


I have been arguing (pointlessly) about the word "behold" and whether permission was granted or even needed for at least 2 days now. Actually, none of that even really matters. I got tied up in the argument and trying to prove my point so much that I glossed over the real point of the story of Job. For this, I repent.


The lesson that we should all learn from Job is this:

Job 9:32-35​

32 For he is not a man, as I am, that I should answer him, and we should come together in judgment. ​

33 Neither is there any daysman betwixt us, that might lay his hand upon us both. ​

34 Let him take his rod away from me, and let not his fear terrify me: 35 Then would I speak, and not fear him; but it is not so with me.​

Job did not have a daysman. We do. His name is Jesus. That is the moral of the story. It was not so for Job, but it is for you and me.

Sorry, I disagree, the point of Job is chapter 42, two verses I would like to quote from v. 2-3 I know that thou canst do everything, and that no thought can be withheld from thee. Who is he who hideth counsel without knowledge? Therefore have I uttered that which I understood not; things too wonderful for me, which I knew not. and vs.5 I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear, but now mine eye seeth thee.

This also I have mentioned and been attacked for. God is so much more than we can know and when you get a glimpse of God you begin to fathom all things, from who God is to what His will is, to how minor a thing like health really is. When we have a glimpse of God we begin to put things into perspective and see things through God's eyes and not our own. We begin to understand that the wonders of God are too great for us to know. And all that is only the beginning. A glimpse of God reveals how lowly we really are and how magnificient God is, how our righteousness compared to God is filthy rags. And when we have a glimpse of God, the scriptures become more than verses we quote but become alive, transforming us daily into the image and heart of Christ. That is the lesson of Job.

 

[probinson]

Sorry, I disagree
............

There's a shocker

 

[razzelflabben]

God did not say DO anything you like, only don't hurt Him. God said all He has IS in your power.

Neither did I in my statement say "take anything you want". You're adding to my words to try and make your point. What I actually said was "Look here is my house. Don't take my TV."

The Bible also says that the devil is the father of lies, and that the truth is not in him at all. I don't know that I'd take anything "according to Satan" to the bank.

Right he says, "only upon himself put not foth thine hand" a statment of limitations. Thus implied permission but this is beyond your understanding. So answer the question, do you consider God stupid to showing satan a known assasine His servant Job a known righteous man, just as you would be a fool to show a known theif your house?

More sweeping generalizations. If it is truly, as you say, "all over the place", it shouldn't be hard to present one instance.

How about if we discuss this in detail after this thread is over. I think the appropriate topic would be how to rightly handle the word of God.

 

[probinson]

As I said in my post yesterday, this has become a fruitless, pointless, meaningless conversation. I'm gonna take my own advice now and bail out.

 

[KingZzub]

I know MY redeemer LIVES.

Blessings,
|ZZ|

 

[JustAFadedMemory]

Great thread...
I have enjoyed re-reading it.
Good points on both sides.