What is your end times view on the rapture?

POLL: What is your end times view on the rapture?

  • No Rapture

    Votes: 16 29.6%
  • Pretribulation

    Votes: 22 40.7%
  • Pre-Wrath/6th Seal

    Votes: 2 3.7%
  • Midtribulation

    Votes: 2 3.7%
  • Posttribulation

    Votes: 12 22.2%

  • Total voters
    54

LastSeven

Amil
Site Supporter
Sep 2, 2010
5,205
1,046
Edmonton, Alberta
✟154,576.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Y'shua proclaimed it was the Father (Grace) in him both speaking, and performing the works, and those among the Priests said he is not casting them out by the Holy Spirit, but by Beelzebub, they were not calling the Messiah Beelzebub, but the one who was performing the works.
But they were wrong. Jesus was not casting our devils by Beelzebub. I must've misunderstood you. I thought you were equating the father with Beelzebub.

As for my second question, it seems you've given me the evidence without giving me an answer first, so let me ask again. Do you believe that the Holy Spirit is just another name for the Father? In other words, they are one and the same, and not two separate persons like the trinity doctrine claims? And please clearly explain your position on that rather than posting more scripture to make me guess how you interpret said scripture.
 
Upvote 0

LastSeven

Amil
Site Supporter
Sep 2, 2010
5,205
1,046
Edmonton, Alberta
✟154,576.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
No such thing as soulsleep. The corpse is what dies upon death and awaits a resurrection. The soul never dies.

Your stubbornness to admit your error reveals more errors in your thinking.
Actually, I'm the opposite of stubborn when it comes to scripture. I used to believe as you do but when the evidence contradicted my beliefs I had no problem changing my mind. You on the other hand, are sticking to your position no matter what the evidence says.
 
Upvote 0

Psalm3704

And He shall give you the desires of your heart.
Aug 10, 2015
1,723
391
✟7,925.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Actually, I'm the opposite of stubborn when it comes to scripture. I used to believe as you do but when the evidence contradicted my beliefs I had no problem changing my mind. You on the other hand, are sticking to your position no matter what the evidence says.

What you're calling evidence is just you throwing out your own opinion. This might surprise you but self opinions are not actual evidence. Real evidence comes from what's documented in the bible, not words from out of one's mouth professing personal ideas.

You still haven't provided any scriptural support of the Last Day (John 6:39-40, 44, 54) except claim that it falls on the day of the Great White Throne judgement. And the only so call evidence you provided was argued "what else can the last day be?" This is not evidence.

Do you have any evidence from the bible showing the Last Day of John 6:39-40 falling on the day of the Great White Throne judgement?







.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Laureate

whatisthebaytreeknown4? What's debate reknown for?
Jan 18, 2012
1,549
422
61
The big island of hawaii 19.5 in the ring of fire
✟58,771.00
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Single
But they were wrong. Jesus was not casting our devils by Beelzebub. I must've misunderstood you. I thought you were equating the father with Beelzebub.

As for my second question, it seems you've given me the evidence without giving me an answer first, so let me ask again. Do you believe that the Holy Spirit is just another name for the Father? In other words, they are one and the same, and not two separate persons like the trinity doctrine claims? And please clearly explain your position on that rather than posting more scripture to make me guess how you interpret said scripture.

Elohym, whom Y'shua refers to as Father is a Spirit, the Spirit of Truth, aka the Holy Spirit, which Y'shua further proclaimed was in him performing the miracles, and speaking;

Y'shua said his Father is Greater than him self, and also indicated that the Holy Spirit was greater than himself when he stated one can be forgiven for blaspheming against him, but not against the Holy Spirit.

According to Y'shua he is subordinate to the Father who is Spirit, and those who worship the Father must worship him in Spirit and Truth, aka the Holy Spirit!
 
Upvote 0

Revealing Times

Well-Known Member
Jun 15, 2016
2,845
420
59
Clanton Alabama
✟108,106.00
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Married
Elohym, whom Y'shua refers to as Father is a Spirit, the Spirit of Truth, aka the Holy Spirit, which Y'shua further proclaimed was in him performing the miracles, and speaking;

Y'shua said his Father is Greater than him self, and also indicated that the Holy Spirit was greater than himself when he stated one can be forgiven for blaspheming against him, but not against the Holy Spirit.

According to Y'shua he is subordinate to the Father who is Spirit, and those who worship the Father must worship him in Spirit and Truth, aka the Holy Spirit!
I think you have all of that convoluted a tad bit. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are the exact same because of what they stand for. They are the same in Love, Joy, Peace, Hope, Kindness, Mercy etc. etc. BUT...They have different offices, Jesus is the Redeemer, the Holy Spirit is the Comforter and the Father has the Abundance of the Glory, no man ca look up the Father because He has the Glory. Its like a 3 Trillion Gallon Reservoir, 100 Gallons is Jesus, 100 Gallons is the Holy Spirit and basically 3 Trillion Gallons is the Father. Pouring a 100 Gallons over your head will soak you, pouring all three trillion Gallons over your head would surely drown you.

The Blaspheming of God and Jesus being forgiven, but the blaspheming of the Holy Spirit has nothing to do with what you seem to be saying, it has to do with the Fact that Jesus' is in Heaven, as is God, but the Holy Spirit had WORK ON EARTH TO DO......Jesus basically was saying do not lie against the Holy Spirit, he has to build the Church, we will not allow him to be BLASPHEMED.....If you do, it will not be forgiven you.
 
Upvote 0

LastSeven

Amil
Site Supporter
Sep 2, 2010
5,205
1,046
Edmonton, Alberta
✟154,576.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
What you're calling evidence is just you throwing out your own opinion. This might surprise you but self opinions are not actual evidence. Real evidence comes from what's documented in the bible, not words from out of one's mouth professing personal ideas.

You still haven't provided any scriptural support of the Last Day (John 6:39-40, 44, 54) except claim that it falls on the day of the Great White Throne judgement. And the only so call evidence you provided was argued "what else can the last day be?" This is not evidence.

Do you have any evidence from the bible showing the Last Day of John 6:39-40 falling on the day of the Great White Throne judgement?
Careful psalm. Your hatred is showing.

There's plenty of scriptural evidence to support what you call "soul sleep". If you don't accept the evidence that's your prerogative, but you can't say there is no evidence.

As for the last day, I don't need evidence to prove that it means what it says. We should always begin by assuming that scripture actually means what it says. If it says Christ will raise us on the last day, then that's our starting point. If you don't believe Christ will raise us on the last day then it's up to you to present evidence, not me.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: keras
Upvote 0

LastSeven

Amil
Site Supporter
Sep 2, 2010
5,205
1,046
Edmonton, Alberta
✟154,576.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Elohym, whom Y'shua refers to as Father is a Spirit, the Spirit of Truth, aka the Holy Spirit, which Y'shua further proclaimed was in him performing the miracles, and speaking;

Y'shua said his Father is Greater than him self, and also indicated that the Holy Spirit was greater than himself when he stated one can be forgiven for blaspheming against him, but not against the Holy Spirit.

According to Y'shua he is subordinate to the Father who is Spirit, and those who worship the Father must worship him in Spirit and Truth, aka the Holy Spirit!
Again, you're presenting evidence while avoiding answering the question. Typically people first state their position, and then follow with evidence to support it. It makes it a lot easier to evaluate the evidence when you know what it's supposed to support.

So please just tell me, yes or no. Do you believe that the Holy Spirit is another name for the Father?
 
Upvote 0

Laureate

whatisthebaytreeknown4? What's debate reknown for?
Jan 18, 2012
1,549
422
61
The big island of hawaii 19.5 in the ring of fire
✟58,771.00
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Single
But they were wrong. Jesus was not casting our devils by Beelzebub. I must've misunderstood you. I thought you were equating the father with Beelzebub.

As for my second question, it seems you've given me the evidence without giving me an answer first, so let me ask again. Do you believe that the Holy Spirit is just another name for the Father? In other words, they are one and the same, and not two separate persons like the trinity doctrine claims? And please clearly explain your position on that rather than posting more scripture to make me guess how you interpret said scripture.

Elohym, whom Y'shua refers to as Father is a Spirit, the Spirit of Truth, aka the Holy Spirit, which Y'shua further proclaimed was in him performing the miracles, and speaking;

Y'shua said his Father is Greater than him self, and also indicated that the Holy Spirit was greater than himself when he stated one can be forgiven for blaspheming against him, but not against the Holy Spirit.

According to Y'shua he is subordinate to the Father who is Spirit, and those who worship the Father must worship him in Spirit and Truth, aka the Holy Spirit!

In light of the scriptural evidence I see the Spirit of our Father as being the True Eve (Life Giver), yet the same is Heaven, aka our Atmosphere (oxygen, breath, air), I see the עב (aʰb) 'Clouds' as being the אב (a'b) 'Father' seated on the Throne, aka heaven, and the Rock and Consuming Fire whose Throne is also שמים (sʰ'méyîm) lit. our Atmosphere, He is the Son, the World knows him as planet earth, aka the Kingdom (of Heaven, our Atmosphere);

Yet we too have our buttocks resting on His Throne (our Atmosphere), and our feet planted on His footstool (Earth).
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Laureate

whatisthebaytreeknown4? What's debate reknown for?
Jan 18, 2012
1,549
422
61
The big island of hawaii 19.5 in the ring of fire
✟58,771.00
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Single
Continue in His word and grow, and increase your knowledge thereby, personally I interpret scripture by scriptural precepts, not imagination, or speculation;

I am careful to paraphrase accurately, and am prepared to substantiate whatsoever I post with scripture only, just as the Spirit of Truth teaches me.


Are we all in preschool, kindergarten, or the first grade? No! Therefore I do not expect anyone who has yet to ascertain certain biblical precepts to comprehend greater knowledge which is predicated on it.
 
Upvote 0

Psalm3704

And He shall give you the desires of your heart.
Aug 10, 2015
1,723
391
✟7,925.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Careful psalm. Your hatred is showing.

Dude, what are you talking about? Why would I hate you when you keep proving my point?

There's plenty of scriptural evidence to support what you call "soul sleep". If you don't accept the evidence that's your prerogative, but you can't say there is no evidence.
What you're calling evidence is just you throwing out your own opinion. This might surprise you but self opinions are not actual evidence. Real evidence comes from what's documented in the bible, not words from out of one's mouth professing personal ideas.

Just as I said. No evidence, just personal opinions. I rest my case.


As for the last day, I don't need evidence to prove that it means what it says. We should always begin by assuming that scripture actually means what it says. If it says Christ will raise us on the last day, then that's our starting point. If you don't believe Christ will raise us on the last day then it's up to you to present evidence, not me.
What you're calling evidence is just you throwing out your own opinion. This might surprise you but self opinions are not actual evidence. Real evidence comes from what's documented in the bible, not words from out of one's mouth professing personal ideas.

Again! Just as I said. No evidence, just personal opinions. I rest my case.

It's kinda hard to hate you when you're making me look good Lastseven.









.
 
Upvote 0

LastSeven

Amil
Site Supporter
Sep 2, 2010
5,205
1,046
Edmonton, Alberta
✟154,576.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Just as I said. No evidence, just personal opinions. I rest my case.

It's kinda hard to hate you when you're making me look good Lastseven.
Well, since we're all feeling the love :rolleyes: maybe you can accept the following scripture as it is and stop bugging me.

Ecclesiastes 9:5
5 For the living know that they will die,
but the dead know nothing;
they have no further reward,
and even their name is forgotten.


Ecclesiastes 9:10
10 Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might, for in the realm of the dead, where you are going, there is neither working nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom.

Psalm 146:4
His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.

Genesis 3:19
By the sweat of your brow you will eat your food until you return to the ground, since from it you were taken; for dust you are and to dust you will return.”

There's some evidence for you. When we die, we actually die. We will know nothing, our thoughts will perish and we return to the dust. That's what the scriptures say and therefore that's what I say.

And of course the most obvious clue of all is the resurrection itself. If we become immortal spirits immediately upon death as you believe, then there would be no point for the resurrection. And yet the resurrection is what it's all about. That's the culmination of God's plan that we should not remain dead forever, but be given a new life in new spiritual bodies.

So there you have both evidence and logic. Now stop saying I have no evidence. You can still say you're not convinced of course, I don't care. But don't say I have no evidence because if you do you're just being disingenuous.

And yes, I know there are scriptures that seem to indicate we go to be with the Lord immediately upon death, so if you want to debate this once again, start a new thread and invite me.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: keras
Upvote 0

LastSeven

Amil
Site Supporter
Sep 2, 2010
5,205
1,046
Edmonton, Alberta
✟154,576.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I see the Spirit of our Father, and the Father as being One as Adam and Eve are to be perceived as One, and I see the Son as being their Express image;
That's a bit confusing. Adam and Eve were two distinct people. And what do you mean by "Express image"?
 
Upvote 0

BABerean2

Newbie
Site Supporter
May 21, 2014
20,614
7,484
North Carolina
✟893,665.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I am curious of the end times views on this forum. I would appreciate if you would vote on this poll to see what the majority view is. Thanks.

***Note: Please don't debate views or argue with others on this thread. There are plenty of threads for that. If you want to post your view, that is great. I know this is a touchy subject for many, I just know it can get heated. I mainly want a poll to just see how views are split.

Based on thousands of pages of commentaries and sermons, no American pastor taught a pretrib removal of the Church at the time of the Revolutionary War.

One of the things that most do not understand is why modern Dispensational Theology needs a pretrib removal of the Church.

They need to remove the Church from the planet so that God can go back and deal with the modern State of Israel under the Old Covenant system. This is what was taught in the original version of the doctrine promoted in the Scofield Reference Bible.

The problem is that based on Hebrews 8:13 the New Covenant of Christ has made the Old Covenant "obsolete". Why would God go back to an obsolete covenant with Moses or Aaron as the mediator instead of Christ?

We also find in Hebrews 13:20 that the New Covenant is "everlasting". Therefore, the "Church Age" cannot end before Christ returns.

We find those under the Blood of the Lamb in Revelation 12:11. A person cannot be under the Blood of the Lamb and not be under the Grace of the New Covenant.

The 144,000 are described as "firstfruits" of the Lamb. The Apostle Paul uses the same language to describe Christians in Romans 16:5.

The New Covenant was promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34 and is found fulfilled in Hebrews 8:6-13. It is found specifically applied to the Church in Hebrews 12:18-24 and 2 Corinthians 3:6-8.

On the Day of Pentecost Peter addressed the crowd as "men of Judea", then as "men of Israel", and in Acts 2:36 as "all the house of Israel". On that day about 3,000 Israelites accepted the New Covenant promised to Jeremiah.

Almost all of the first members of the Church were Israelites. The Gentiles were grafted in among them several years later.

Once one come to understand the New Covenant, the need for a pretrib removal of the Church disappears.

.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Psalm3704

And He shall give you the desires of your heart.
Aug 10, 2015
1,723
391
✟7,925.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Well, since we're all feeling the love :rolleyes: maybe you can accept the following scripture as it is and stop bugging me.

Ecclesiastes 9:5
5 For the living know that they will die,
but the dead know nothing;
they have no further reward,
and even their name is forgotten.


Ecclesiastes 9:10
10 Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might, for in the realm of the dead, where you are going, there is neither working nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom.

Psalm 146:4
His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.

Genesis 3:19
By the sweat of your brow you will eat your food until you return to the ground, since from it you were taken; for dust you are and to dust you will return.”

There's some evidence for you. When we die, we actually die. We will know nothing, our thoughts will perish and we return to the dust. That's what the scriptures say and therefore that's what I say.

And of course the most obvious clue of all is the resurrection itself. If we become immortal spirits immediately upon death as you believe, then there would be no point for the resurrection. And yet the resurrection is what it's all about. That's the culmination of God's plan that we should not remain dead forever, but be given a new life in new spiritual bodies.

So there you have both evidence and logic. Now stop saying I have no evidence. You can still say you're not convinced of course, I don't care. But don't say I have no evidence because if you do you're just being disingenuous.

And yes, I know there are scriptures that seem to indicate we go to be with the Lord immediately upon death, so if you want to debate this once again, start a new thread and invite me.

LS, are you not aware? Those are not passages about the soul.

Do you not know the soul and the body are separated at death? When a person dies, the corpse is what sleeps and await resurrection. The individual's soul never dies. The soul doesn't sleep in the grave. Do you know what a person's soul is and how it works in the spiritual realm? Seems like you're confusing the two as one.










.
 
Upvote 0

Laureate

whatisthebaytreeknown4? What's debate reknown for?
Jan 18, 2012
1,549
422
61
The big island of hawaii 19.5 in the ring of fire
✟58,771.00
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Single
That's a bit confusing. Adam and Eve were two distinct people. And what do you mean by "Express image"?

In the following passage Elohym creates Adam (masculine form of Adamah lit., Earth) after the 'Image and Likeness' of Elohym, specifying Male and Female, thus he was originally Hermaphrodite (having both sexes) Like his Maker;

"So Elohym created man in his own image, in the image of Elohym created he Him; Male and Female created he Them." [Genesis 1:27]

"And I will cleanse them from all their Iniquity, whereby they have sinned against me; and I will pardon all their Iniquities, whereby they have sinned, and whereby they have transgressed against me." [Jeremiah 33:8]

According to Jeremiah 33:8 'iniquity' is the precursor for Sin, yet literally means 'Perversity' i.e, twisted, to miss apply, miss use, and miss interpret;

The 'Perversity' of Adam that precedes the first Sin is a miss interpretation, for Elohym (the true Life Giver) said, 'I will make Adam a suitable helper', referring to the Spirit (aka wife of one's youth, ref. Malachi 2:15);

After declaring this, Elohym proceeded to bring the animals before him to see what he would call them, yet he thought Elohym had proposed to fashion him a Suitable helper, and that is why he did not find one of them Suitable for him;

The mode of operandi of Elohym when someone is found without the Love for Truth (< אמן a'mən, may also translate 'our mother'), he customarily hands them over to their (unwarranted) fear, (immature) imaginations, or (inappropriate) judgements;

No sooner than Adam's realization was communicated, Elohym (being a Jealous deity) cast Adam into a Deep Sleep (coma), which is (biblically) synonymous with Death, then prepares to hand him over to what he was expecting;

Elohym forms the woman from Adam's rib, and then presents her to him, at which time Adam is no longer A-sexual, yet proudly declares, "this is flesh of my flesh, and bone of my bones..."

The scripture is careful to point out that Adam and the woman were both naked, yet were not ashamed, however (biblically) one's nakedness is supposed to be considered a Shame; (ref. Ex. 32:25)

Immediately upon seeing their lack of shame Satan enters the picture, who (according to 1st Chronicles 21:1 and 2nd Samuel 24:1) represents the Anger of Yah;

Now as was stated, Adam was created in the Image and Likeness of Elohym, and in Webster's third DAE in the third entry for 'Reflection' we find "anything reflected, specif. image; likeness (end of entry)"

Seth aka The Son of Adam (Man) was fashioned "In the Likeness, and After the Image" of Adam (carefully notice the mirror reverse order from "in the Image, and After the Likeness;

Thus, Adam was a reflection of Elohym, and Seth was a Reflection of Adam, circumstantially making Seth the Express (not a mirror opposite reflected) Image of Elohym; (ref. Heb. 1:3 Christ is the Express image)

More than any other title Y'shua proclaimed to be the Son of Adam, and since the days of Noah's flood, Adam has only one begotten son inhabiting the earth, consequently, we (the remnant of Adam) constitute the Many Members of the body of Seth; (ref. 1stCorinth Corinthians 6:15)

This is what was meant by "he has a name written that no man knew but he himself." (Rev. 19:13)

For Y'shua did not come in his own name, but in the name of the Father, and the day before he was crucified he said to his disciples, "Up unto this moment you have asked nothing in my name, Ask..." (John 16:24)

"Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created." [Genesis 5:2]

After separating the woman from Adam the concept of marriage became a necessity or we inadvertently might think we are two beings, and not One being, notice how he called them Adam, not Adam and Eve;
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

LastSeven

Amil
Site Supporter
Sep 2, 2010
5,205
1,046
Edmonton, Alberta
✟154,576.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
LS, are you not aware? Those are not passages about the soul.

Do you not know the soul and the body are separated at death? When a person dies, the corpse is what sleeps and await resurrection. The individual's soul never dies. The soul doesn't sleep in the grave. Do you know what a person's soul is and how it works in the spiritual realm? Seems like you're confusing the two as one.
.
On the contrary. It seems that you are not aware that we are souls. A soul is a living creature. Without life, we're just dust, but with the breath of God we've become living creatures. We've become souls.

Genesis 2:7
And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul (nephesh).

The Greek word is "Nephesh" and it's also used in Genesis 1:20

Genesis 1:20
And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life (nephesh), and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.

Yes, even the animals are "souls".
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

BABerean2

Newbie
Site Supporter
May 21, 2014
20,614
7,484
North Carolina
✟893,665.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
On the contrary. It seems that you are not aware that we are souls. A soul is a living creature. Without life, we're just dust, but with the breath of God we've become living creatures. We've become souls.

Genesis 2:7
And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul (nephesh).

The Greek word is "Nephesh" and it's also used in Genesis 1:20

Genesis 1:20
And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life (nephesh), and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.

Yes, even the animals are "souls".

Mat_10:28  And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

.
 
  • Friendly
Reactions: Laureate
Upvote 0