My view on end-time prophecy symbols and Christian salvation in light of the book of Revelation

[RandyPNW]

To be honest I think that the Enlightment actually came when the world was relieved after the dark ages have subsided, which was filled with inquisitions and other horrible things being committed by the western church against those it viewed as apostates or enemies, including a failed excursion to the east against the Orthodox Russia. I think people in Europe just had enough of religion back then, since they saw that what it did, and went secular or found alternatives like Protestantism. So, I cannot really agree with you that the world was a better place Christian-wise before the Enlightment

In my view the Enlightenment was an attempt to reform Christian decadence using non-Christian means, eg humanistic reason. It led to various non-Christian ideologies that were as bad as failed Christian schemes. What was worse--Catholic political excesses or dictatorships that have resulted since the French Revolution? They are both bad.

That the Enlightenment was a turn *away from Christianity* is beyond dispute. I wonder why you would defend a distinctly *antiChristian* ideological movement? Perhaps it is because the supposed "neutrality" created by humanistic democracy appears to have allowed a semblance of Christian morality? Democratic pluralism does have a certain amount of allure to it. And it has successfully stained Christian government as "evil theocracy."

 

[RandyPNW]

When I said "Orthodox stronghold in the east" I didn't mean eastern Europe. By "east" I meant Russia, which lies on Great European Plain only in its western part. Historically Russia had become the successor of the Eastern, Byzantine Christianity, which is the other biggest Christianity that came about the Great Schism around the end of the first millennium. This Eastern Christianity started with Constantine the Great around 300AD and is now centered in Russia, as other Orthodox denominations have apostatised by servings mass with the Pope. Orthodox Christians do not believe in their works for salvation, but that they are saved if they die in the Lord, receiving the Blood and Body of Christ on the death bed after confession (Holy Spirit and clear conscience). Faith in salvation is generally avoided, but only hope is entertained, and a faith in the goodness of God who saves the humble. Though some fathers of the church advocate that one cannot be called a Christian if he/she doesn't believe they have the Holy Spirit, or that the goal of Christian life is to maintain the Holy Spirit within.

Yes, I know the history of the Eastern part of the ancient Roman Empire. Constantinople became the eastern capital, and gradually, the Orthodox Church began to be captured by the Slavs to the North. Some of my relatives came from the region of Ukraine, though they were largely German, I think.

Salvation is likely to be indicated by more concrete rituals like the Communion because they provide a clear contrast for those who make their faith evident in the adoption of these rituals in a serious way, perhaps like Water Baptism would be to a new convert. Anybody can understand, however, that Christian rituals can be misused to convey a certain amount of religiosity without spiritual substance. We probably agree on that?

My point involved a reference to Europe in the East, which certainly does include Russia. Russia is part of the extension of European Christianity. The monarchies of all Europe seem to have been somewhat related at times.

As a matter of personal interest I can tell you that many years ago a Russian dissident visited a local community college I was attending, and he took questions. I asked him if he had a religious conviction, and he answered that he was Russian Orthodox. I think that even Putin would claim that he is Russian Orthodox?

 

[Water and Fire]

I believe the hands represent our works, because it is written in OT "the works of their hands". But Jesus said we cannot do anything without Him, so it is by His Spirit we work the good deeds of the Gospel. And it is with the spirit of this world that we work everything that God rejects. For example it is by the spirit of this world we lay in wait to slay the righteous, or backstab, or fornicate, or commit adultery, or bear false witness, or reject the plight of the poor and persecuted, or believe for salvation in things that cannot hear or talk. And when we work these things, it is because the seal of this world is on us.

It is not just Revelation that is made up of these symbols, the entirety of scripture is. Old and new testaments.

 

[eleos1954]

I want to share with you what I think the main symbols of Revelation mean, because I haven't really heard anyone preaching it like that. There is nothing harsh ethically or otherwise in it. Please comment on what you think, and whether you think it fits with the rest of the Bible.

Basically, I think that when it says "buy and sell" in chapter 13, it means to teach teachings that are untrue, just as in the Prophets a prophet mentioned buying wine and milk "for free" in the sense of receiving true teachings, the truth here being God -- the only uncreated being in existence, while everything is something created.

And just as for 6 days God created everything, so also all creation can be symbolized by a six, while He Himself -- by a seven -- the eternal Day for rest, the eternal Sabbath. And so, all the "created truth", can be represented by a six.

And in the end times, whoever will receive a false teaching, and believe it, would receive the spirit of faith in something created yet not true. While the true believers would continue to have the Holy Spirit of faith in things that are true (Spirit is the spirit of faith in truth).

And this is where the Revelation mentions image of the beast. Image is something worshipped. And if the image speaks, it means it's a human being, or the words of this human being, which are received by people instead of the words of Christ. These other words can't find justification in the Bible that is.

But not only the teaching of people can be something created -- our goods deeds can be too. They are after all the creations of our hands, even though they come with the help of God. And so they cannot be worshipped either, aka believed in for salvation. I.e. we do them knowing they save because of Matthew 25, yet after we worked them, we don't remember them and don't trust in them as the foolish farmer in his crop. We forget them like the right hand mustn't know what the left hand does, and we just say: we did what we had to, we are unprofitable slaves of God. The danger from these works come because they don't have eyes to see or ears to hear, and so trusting in them for salvation would seem to only make God angry -- provided God is the same God as He was in the Old Testament.

So what are we left with, is to only believe for salvation in the presence of the Holy Spirit in us, which *is* the Blood of Jesus, because the "blood of every creature is its life", yet the Spirit is Eternal Life -- "my Words are Spirit and they are Life". When our heart has the Holy Spirit, the inner, shabby, sin-nature-ridden garments of our heart are made clean. Yet if guilty conscience shipwrecks our faith, the wine of the Spirit flows out through the holes, burnt by these hot coals (a seared conscience just doesn't feel them, yet the effect on our wine sack is the same). And we become naked, and our shame can be seen -- the Wedding Garment gone. Yet, if we have not trusted in our grapes for salvation (meaning the works of Matthew 25) and haven't been lucky to go the Lord with the oil of the Spirit filling to the brim the lamp of heart, these grapes will provide the last washing of the Blood of Jesus at the Great Judgement ("the blood of grapes"). But if we do die in the Lord, we go to heaven right away, as it's written (I'm paraphrasing): they who have the Spirit of faith to the brim, because of the wine sack without holes and works of praise to the Lord, shall not come to the Judgment, but have already passed from death to life.

But if we do die in the Lord, we go to heaven right away,

Bible teaches all wait dormant in the grave until they are resurrected .. and the 1st resurrection don't happen until Jesus returns .... that is when the saved are taken to heaven .... not before.

Paul sums it up nicely here ...

1 Thessalonians 4

The Return of the Lord

13Brothers, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you will not grieve like the rest, who are without hope. 14For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, we also believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him.

15By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. 17After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.

18Therefore encourage one another with these words.

 

[dmitry677]

It is not just Revelation that is made up of these symbols, the entirety of scripture is. Old and new testaments.

I agree. And I agree with the common idea that the Bible has all the keys to unlock itself. The symbols of Revelation all can be unlocked using the words of Christ and those of the Apostles, and parts of the Old Testament. One just need to "run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased".

 

[dmitry677]

Bible teaches all wait dormant in the grave until they are resurrected .. and the 1st resurrection don't happen until Jesus returns .... that is when the saved are taken to heaven .... not before.

Paul sums it up nicely here ...

1 Thessalonians 4

The Return of the Lord

13Brothers, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you will not grieve like the rest, who are without hope. 14For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, we also believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him.

15By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. 17After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.

18Therefore encourage one another with these words.

You may be right. Thank you for letting me be aware of these details. I have not noticed these things. But the main point was that those that die in the Lord do not come to the Judgement, but only those, who have died without the Spirit. And actually according to Young's Literal Translation the verse 14 speaks not of those who "have fallen asleep in Him", but of those who God "through Jesus he will bring with him". But yes, in verse 16 we read "dead in Christ", which I believe is sufficient to support you point.

 

[dmitry677]

Anybody can understand, however, that Christian rituals can be misused to convey a certain amount of religiosity without spiritual substance.

I agree. But the power of the rituals is real, if the priest has power of God in truth. And if you ask me, I personally believe that there is God's power even in the Catholic church, though I do not agree with its teaching about works or the filioque. I believe Catholic church is one of the seven churches of revelation, just as the Orthodox one, but is the one where the devil dwells, because of its history in the middle ages.

That the Enlightenment was a turn *away from Christianity* is beyond dispute. I wonder why you would defend a distinctly *antiChristian* ideological movement?

You must have misunderstood me. I wasn't actually defending or supporting anything. I was just stating a neutral opinion about why I think the Enlightment happened. I believe people have a natural tendency to turn away from harsh and overly controlling ideologies when the situation allows it.

many years ago a Russian dissident visited a local community college I was attending, and he took questions. I asked him if he had a religious conviction, and he answered that he was Russian Orthodox. I think that even Putin would claim that he is Russian Orthodox?

I agree people can call themselves something, yet not be it. But as for Putin, I believe he is a good and ethical person (and I do not believe that I have a right to judge anyone anyway, because I'm an imperfect sinner myself), who was just demonised by the western powers as part of a war strategy. The global, western media machine has brainwashed the global population to believe in so many horrible lies, that if you now knew the real truth, you would start crying, trust me.

 

[Water and Fire]

I agree. And I agree with the common idea that the Bible has all the keys to unlock itself. The symbols of Revelation all can be unlocked using the words of Christ and those of the Apostles, and parts of the Old Testament. One just need to "run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased".

Just one point though... unless Christ heals you of your blindness, and gives you eyes to see... you will not know anything.

 

[dmitry677]

Just one point though... unless Christ heals you of your blindness, and gives you eyes to see... you will not know anything.

Well, I think I would agree. Christ needs to give it to you first. For example, I was trying to piece all the symbols together by drawing line connections on an e-tablet. But what served as the breaking point was when I fell down on my knees and cried out with all my being, asking that He lets me understand these symbols (and I thanked Him by faith that I receive). This as though opened a tap in me and things just started to pour out -- it just kept coming and coming. In the beginning it was all rusty and dirty water, like after opening a long-unused tap, but overtime it clarified and stabilized.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Actually, I wasn't confusing teaching control with market control as you put it. I meant that the market itself is only symbolic -- the market of teachings about salvation, where people "buy" by receiving certain teachings and "sell" by teaching them.

But I believe that there were at some points in history moments where the market control would be used as a tool to enforce control of the teaching market and make it sell only certain things and not other. For example there already was an antichrist at one point (it even says plainly in the Bible: "and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come") -- a caesar that made it a decree that no one buys or sells except they who worship him by burning him incense. People would be given special certificates that prove they worshipped caesar and it would let them buy and sell. Here we see how the false teaching that caesar is God was enforced in the teaching market by enforcing rules about non-symbolic market.

And I guess this may happen again, yet this is not the point I was trying to make. But following this route, I would like to add that soon there will be electronic currency and it is something that can be controlled as per how it is used. And some people -- those who disagree with certain things -- can be just switched out of using it altogether, being left with no means to participate fully in the socio-economic system. I watched a recent youtube video of Snowden even advocating the adoption of the Nostr protocol to enable people to trade despite of the future restrictions.

As for what you said the antichrist is yet to come, I believe it already came. There were several of them. All of them don't have the Father and the Son because they have not the Son -- the words of the Son are not in them, but their own.

Revelation 13:16-17: “And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.”

Is the buying here literal or spiritual?

• If the beast is a spiritual entity and the mark is spiritual, why would the buying and selling not be spiritual?
• There is other Scripture that spiritualizes buying and selling, including Revelation. So, there is compelling grounds for coming to such a deduction!
• Why would we not conclude that in such a highly symbolic and deeply-figurative book.

The book of Revelation is written in metaphorical language. It is a spiritual book written to spiritual people revealing spiritual truths about spiritual matters. I am sure we would all agree with that. It is therefore appropriate to consider the mark of the beast and the buying and selling connected to that to be in keeping with that. Basically: it is figurative language in a figurative book. Our literalist Western mind-set will often not allow for a symbolic or spiritual interpretation.

When one initially sees the phrase “buy or sell” we immediately think of economic transactions, however, a person’s salvation is not, or ever has been, dependent upon his ability or inability to financial buy or sell. Buying and selling in this passage are clearly symbolic terms for those trading in the devil’s degenerate marketplace (the world antichrist system) with the devil’s currency. The child of God is manifestly of another kingdom, his treasure is in heaven, and he has no authorization to trade with the devil's supply in the arena of sin and iniquity.

Christians are not going to be accepted in this world. They are going to be rejected because of their beliefs. It is going to be increasingly difficult for Christians to feel at home any more in this sin-cursed world the closer it gets to the end.

 

[Matt5]

Maybe we need to look at Matthew 13. Here, we learn that Jesus doesn't want to open our eyes, because then he would have to heal us. Instead, he wants to punish us. Hence, the use of very confusing language that is especially used for prophecy.

Matthew 13:13-15
13 This is why I speak to them in parables:

“Though seeing, they do not see;
though hearing, they do not hear or understand.
14 In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah:

“‘You will be ever hearing but never understanding;
you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.
15 For this people’s heart has become calloused;
they hardly hear with their ears,
and they have closed their eyes.
Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
hear with their ears,
understand with their hearts
and turn, and I would heal them.’[a]

The use of parables and other confusing language hides bad news - really bad news. The only real way to understand is when you get close to the actual event and work backwards to the Bible. But nobody cares.

Concerning the mark, imagine you can see into the future and write down what you saw? What would you write down? Would you write down NOT what you saw? John saw the actual mark and wrote it down: XEc. XEc is the actual mark. That happens to be Greek for 600, 60 and 6. It also happens to be the name of Allah in Arabic with two swords underneath. The symbol is rotated for us. Now show your allegiance to Allah (Islam) by taking his mark.

 

[Water and Fire]

Maybe we need to look at Matthew 13. Here, we learn that Jesus doesn't want to open our eyes, because then he would have to heal us. Instead, he wants to punish us. Hence, the use of very confusing language that is especially used for prophecy.

Matthew 13:13-15
13 This is why I speak to them in parables:

“Though seeing, they do not see;
though hearing, they do not hear or understand.
14 In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah:

“‘You will be ever hearing but never understanding;
you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.
15 For this people’s heart has become calloused;
they hardly hear with their ears,
and they have closed their eyes.
Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
hear with their ears,
understand with their hearts
and turn, and I would heal them.’[a]

The use of parables and other confusing language hides bad news - really bad news. The only real way to understand is when you get close to the actual event and work backwards to the Bible. But nobody cares.

Concerning the mark, imagine you can see into the future and write down what you saw? What would you write down? Would you write down NOT what you saw? John saw the actual mark and wrote it down: XEc. XEc is the actual mark. That happens to be Greek for 600, 60 and 6. It also happens to be the name of Allah in Arabic with two swords underneath. The symbol is rotated for us. Now show your allegiance to Allah (Islam) by taking his mark.

He only wants certain people to see.