Sabbath and the New Covenant

[Bob S]

Hi Bob, Yep! And especially when it comes to the New Covenant, why do many otherwise devout Christians not observe a Seventh-Day Sabbath?

The reason I've often heard given is that they've been deceived. This passage from Acts is often cited.

Bible Gateway passage: Acts 17:30 - King James Version

And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

www.biblegateway.com

The idea is that God winked at the times of ignorance about the seventh day Sabbath. But since God writes his laws on our hearts in the New Covenant, there could be no times of ignorance regarding the Sabbath.

Amen!

 

[Gary K]

Hi Bob, Yep! And especially when it comes to the New Covenant, why do many otherwise devout Christians not observe a Seventh-Day Sabbath?

The reason I've often heard given is that they've been deceived. This passage from Acts is often cited.

Bible Gateway passage: Acts 17:30 - King James Version

And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

www.biblegateway.com

The idea is that God winked at the times of ignorance about the seventh day Sabbath. But since God writes his laws on our hearts in the New Covenant, there could be no times of ignorance regarding the Sabbath.

What is a remnant and why is it spoken of in both the OT and NT?

Jeremiah 23: 3 And I will gather the remnant of my flock out of all countries whither I have driven them, and will bring them again to their folds; and they shall be fruitful and increase.

Revelation 12: 17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

 

[Canuckster]

What is a remnant and why is it spoken of in both the OT and NT?

Jeremiah 23: 3 And I will gather the remnant of my flock out of all countries whither I have driven them, and will bring them again to their folds; and they shall be fruitful and increase.

Revelation 12: 17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

You find the word remnant in the OT and remnant in the NT and that's your scriptural evidence it's referring to the exact same group?

 

[Leaf473]

What is a remnant and why is it spoken of in both the OT and NT?

Jeremiah 23: 3 And I will gather the remnant of my flock out of all countries whither I have driven them, and will bring them again to their folds; and they shall be fruitful and increase.

Revelation 12: 17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

A remnant is a small number leftover out of a much larger group.

Jeremiah speaks of a remnant of Israelites because the bulk of them had died due to these curses

Bible Gateway passage: Deuteronomy 28:16-17 - King James Version

Cursed shalt thou be in the city, and cursed shalt thou be in the field. Cursed shall be thy basket and thy store.

www.biblegateway.com

The remnant in Revelation 12 could either be those left after the rapture who have decided to get much more serious, or it could be those who are still alive after previous persecutions.

Bible Gateway passage: Revelation 12:11 - King James Version

And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

www.biblegateway.com

 

[Gary K]

You find the word remnant in the OT and remnant in the NT and that's your scriptural evidence it's referring to the exact same group?

Yes. I reject your hyper dispensationalism completely. It's one of the very few things I agree with daq about. You might was well not answer because I will not answer you on this again. The only reason I answered your question was to be polite. I've gone around and around with people who have the same beliefs you do and it has never accomplished anything.

 

[Gary K]

A remnant is a small number leftover out of a much larger group.

Jeremiah speaks of a remnant of Israelites because the bulk of them had died due to these curses

Bible Gateway passage: Deuteronomy 28:16-17 - King James Version

Cursed shalt thou be in the city, and cursed shalt thou be in the field. Cursed shall be thy basket and thy store.

www.biblegateway.com

The remnant in Revelation 12 could either be those left after the rapture who have decided to get much more serious, or it could be those who are still alive after previous persecutions.

Bible Gateway passage: Revelation 12:11 - King James Version

And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

www.biblegateway.com

I've already demonstrated to you from scripture there is no rapture.

Now, to the point of my question to you. Why should you not find a lot of people who agree with your position? God has never had a majority of people who accepted truth. Never was, and never will be, a majority who will believe the truth. Only 8 people believed Him at the time of the flood and Revelation says it will only be a remnant who will be saved.

 

[Leaf473]

I've already demonstrated to you from scripture there is no rapture.

I don't recall you and I ever talking about the rapture If you would like to post a link to what do you remember, that would be great

Now, to the point of my question to you. Why should you not find a lot of people who agree with your position? God has never had a majority of people who accepted truth. Never was, and never will be, a majority who will believe the truth. Only 8 people believed Him at the time of the flood and Revelation says it will only be a remnant who will be saved.

I'm not talking about a majority, or a large number.

Of those who are devout Christians, all would have knowledge of the Sabbath commandment written on their heart, assuming that's what God does. So the defense of "times of ignorance" would not be valid.

And is that what you're saying? That all devout Christians have the Sabbath commandment written on their heart?

 

[Gary K]

I don't recall you and I ever talking about the rapture If you would like to post a link to what do you remember, that would be great


I'm not talking about a majority, or a large number.

Of those who are devout Christians, all would have knowledge of the Sabbath commandment written on their heart, assuming that's what God does. So the defense of "times of ignorance" would not be valid.

And is that what you're saying? That all devout Christians have the Sabbath commandment written on their heart?

I'm not going to attempt to find the post as all I need are two scriptural passages.

Genesis 7: 6 And Noah was six hundred years old when the flood of waters was upon the earth.
7 ¶ And Noah went in, and his sons, and his wife, and his sons’ wives with him, into the ark, because of the waters of the flood.

The people had 100 years of probation and then all decisions were final. When the door of the ark was shut there were no second chances

Revelation 22: 11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

When Jesus comes the 2nd time His reward is with him to judge every man according to his works. He says that the spiritual state they are in is their final choice. No second chances.

I've demonstrated this repeatedly in this forum. Only God know the heart and He says the results of the NC is that those who choose to participate in it will know Him. Nobody else will be saved. John 17: 1-3

 

[Canuckster]

Yes. I reject your hyper dispensationalism completely. It's one of the very few things I agree with daq about. You might was well not answer because I will not answer you on this again. The only reason I answered your question was to be polite. I've gone around and around with people who have the same beliefs you do and it has never accomplished anything.

And Christians have went round and round with SDA beliefs especially when you take a word that appears in the OT and the NT and claim it's referring to the same group when there's zero scriptural evidence to back it up. Does the fact that Christians will be ruling with Christ over the world and Israel offend you? Are the SDA a Christian church or a Judaic church?

SDA are telling Christians 24/7 that God wants them to give up their careers, livelihoods and professions (observe the Sabbath) to be saved and none of you can even provide scriptural evidence to back it up. Whereas I provide solid scriptural evidence in Act 15 that clearly states Christians do not have to keep the law of Moses, which includes the Sabbath, even when you post false translations that leave out the most important part of the scripture. Then you say the law of Moses is not the 10 commandments because of God's finger. What kind of ridiculous doctrine is that? Again... no scriptural evidence to back any of that stuff up. As I mentioned earlier, the SDA have too much to lose ($$) by following scriptural evidence so of course Christians will be going round and round with you.

And going round and round does accomplish something... just not with you but with those who may avoid being deceived by your unproven doctrines

 

[Leaf473]

I'm not going to attempt to find the post as all I need are two scriptural passages.

Genesis 7: 6 And Noah was six hundred years old when the flood of waters was upon the earth.
7 ¶ And Noah went in, and his sons, and his wife, and his sons’ wives with him, into the ark, because of the waters of the flood.

The people had 100 years of probation and then all decisions were final. When the door of the ark was shut there were no second chances

Revelation 22: 11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

When Jesus comes the 2nd time His reward is with him to judge every man according to his works. He says that the spiritual state they are in is their final choice. No second chances.

I have no idea how that relates to whether or not there is a rapture. The word occurs in the scriptures, though what exactly it means is up for debate. But that would be a subject for a different thread

I've demonstrated this repeatedly in this forum. Only God know the heart and He says the results of the NC is that those who choose to participate in it will know Him. Nobody else will be saved. John 17: 1-3

Jeremiah 31 and Hebrews 8 say that the law of God will be written on the hearts of those in the New Covenant.

If the Sabbath commandment is part of the law of God, it would be written on those hearts.

If it is not written, it is not one of the laws of God.

I think a great way to reconcile this is to refer to what we've agreed on in the past, that it's the principles of the Ten Commandments that are written on our hearts.

And that matches my personal experience. I agree that the principle of the Sabbath commandment is written in my heart. And I sense that in other devout Christians that I meet.

Of course, the overall principle written in our hearts is Love, which I believe matches up with what our brother @Bob S is saying.

 

[Gary K]

I have no idea how that relates to whether or not there is a rapture. The word occurs in the scriptures, though what exactly it means is up for debate. But that would be a subject for a different thread


Jeremiah 31 and Hebrews 8 say that the law of God will be written on the hearts of those in the New Covenant.

If the Sabbath commandment is part of the law of God, it would be written on those hearts.

If it is not written, it is not one of the laws of God.

I think a great way to reconcile this is to refer to what we've agreed on in the past, that it's the principles of the Ten Commandments that are written on our hearts.

And that matches my personal experience. I agree that the principle of the Sabbath commandment is written in my heart. And I sense that in other devout Christians that I meet.

Of course, the overall principle written in our hearts is Love, which I believe matches up with what our brother @Bob S is saying.

So scriptural evidence means nothing to you? I just demonstrated there are zero second chances. Once people make up there minds their decision is final.

I agree with Bob S. on basically nothing except Jesus was crucified and He is the Son of God.

 

[Leaf473]

So scriptural evidence means nothing to you?

No, that would be a mistaken conclusion

I just demonstrated there are zero second chances. Once people make up there minds their decision is final.

How does that relate to the question of whether or not there is a rapture?

I agree with Bob S. on basically nothing except Jesus was crucified and He is the Son of God.

I think we all agree that the two greatest Commandments - on which all the law and the prophets hang - are centered around love.

 

[Gary K]

No, that would be a mistaken conclusion


How does that relate to the question of whether or not there is a rapture?


I think we all agree that the two greatest Commandments - on which all the law and the prophets hang - are centered around love.

There is no secret rapture.

If Bob S. did he wouldn't despise Ellen White.

 

[Leaf473]

There is no secret rapture.

I agree. "We will hear a loud command. We will hear the voice of the leader of the angels. We will hear a blast from God’s trumpet."

And then the part about being "caught up" or rapture.

Bible Gateway passage: 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 - New International Reader's Version

The Lord himself will come down from heaven. We will hear a loud command. We will hear the voice of the leader of the angels. We will hear a blast from God’s trumpet. Many who believe in Christ will have died already. They will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be...

www.biblegateway.com

If it's important, I'll agree that the word Rapture doesn't occur in the scriptures - in English translations - I thought it did. But it's there in the Latin, probably some other languages. The concept is definitely in scripture.

If Bob S. did he wouldn't despise Ellen White.

This is not about any particular user, but all of us:
We can give intellectual assent to something that we are still learning and growing in.

We can all aspire to this

Bible Gateway passage: Ephesians 4:29 - New International Reader's Version

Don’t let any evil talk come out of your mouths. Say only what will help to build others up and meet their needs. Then what you say will help those who listen.

www.biblegateway.com

 

[Gary K]

I agree. "We will hear a loud command. We will hear the voice of the leader of the angels. We will hear a blast from God’s trumpet."

And then the part about being "caught up" or rapture.

Bible Gateway passage: 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 - New International Reader's Version

The Lord himself will come down from heaven. We will hear a loud command. We will hear the voice of the leader of the angels. We will hear a blast from God’s trumpet. Many who believe in Christ will have died already. They will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be...

www.biblegateway.com

If it's important, I'll agree that the word Rapture doesn't occur in the scriptures - in English translations - I thought it did. But it's there in the Latin, probably some other languages. The concept is definitely in scripture.


This is not about any particular user, but all of us:
We can give intellectual assent to something that we are still learning and growing in.

We can all aspire to this

Bible Gateway passage: Ephesians 4:29 - New International Reader's Version

Don’t let any evil talk come out of your mouths. Say only what will help to build others up and meet their needs. Then what you say will help those who listen.

www.biblegateway.com

Then what was the point in specifically mentioning Bob S..

 

[Leaf473]

Then what was the point in specifically mentioning Bob S..

When we as Christians agree on things, that can be edifying to talk about.

But if we want to be critical, it's good to be critical of the group as a whole, because we're all learning and growing.

Bible Gateway passage: Philippians 3:12-13 - New International Reader's Version

I have not yet received all these things. I have not yet reached my goal. Christ Jesus took hold of me so that I could reach that goal. So I keep pushing myself forward to reach it. Brothers and sisters, I don’t consider that I have taken hold of it yet. But here is the one thing I do. I forget...

www.biblegateway.com

 

[Gary K]

When we as Christians agree on things, that can be edifying to talk about.

But if we want to be critical, it's good to be critical of the group as a whole, because we're all learning and growing.

Bible Gateway passage: Philippians 3:12-13 - New International Reader's Version

I have not yet received all these things. I have not yet reached my goal. Christ Jesus took hold of me so that I could reach that goal. So I keep pushing myself forward to reach it. Brothers and sisters, I don’t consider that I have taken hold of it yet. But here is the one thing I do. I forget...

www.biblegateway.com

So what was the point of mentioning Bob S.? If you were speaking of Christians in general when why specifically mention him? Because you know he has bitter feelings against Ellen White?

 

[Leaf473]

So what was the point of mentioning Bob S.?

Because of what I wrote earlier:

When we as Christians agree on things, that can be edifying to talk about.

It seems to me that a particular user has gone out of his way to talk about what I was talking about. That's why I wrote this:

Of course, the overall principle written in our hearts is Love, which I believe matches up with what our brother @Bob S is saying.

If you have talked about the same thing, please cite the post number
I'll check it out and tag you as well

If you were speaking of Christians in general when why specifically mention him? Because you know he has bitter feelings against Ellen White?

 

[Gary K]

Because of what I wrote earlier:


It seems to me that a particular user has gone out of his way to talk about what I was talking about. That's why I wrote this:

If you have talked about the same thing, please cite the post number
I'll check it out and tag you as well

I'm not about to go searching for threads we have discussed this as I can give you entire threads where I have talked about this. Bob S. rejects it all as he has never agreed with me on those threads.

It seems the mods have deleted the entire thread I was referring to. Here is the OP from another forum I posted it on.

I'd like to look at the new covenant from a different perspective.

Jeremiah 31: 31 ¶ Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

So what is the result of having God's law written in our hearts? That everyone who participates in the NC knows God. How is it that they know Him? By having His law written in their hearts,

This is an exact parallel to what Jesus said.

John 17: 3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Thus have a personal relation ship with God means Jesus won't be telling us in the judgment I never knew you depart from me you who work iniquity.

Matthew 7: 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.


So salvation is based simply knowing God and having an abiding relationship with Him. Nothing more and nothing less.

The entire chapter of John 17 speaks to the idea of being one with God and God is love.

1John 4: 8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

 

[Leaf473]

I'm not about to go searching for threads we have discussed this as I can give you entire threads where I have talked about this. Bob S. rejects it all as he has never agreed with me on those threads.

It seems the mods have deleted the entire thread I was referring to. Here is the OP from another forum I posted it on.

I'd like to look at the new covenant from a different perspective.

Jeremiah 31: 31 ¶ Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

So what is the result of having God's law written in our hearts? That everyone who participates in the NC knows God. How is it that they know Him? By having His law written in their hearts,

This is an exact parallel to what Jesus said.

John 17: 3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Thus have a personal relation ship with God means Jesus won't be telling us in the judgment I never knew you depart from me you who work iniquity.

Matthew 7: 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.


So salvation is based simply knowing God and having an abiding relationship with Him. Nothing more and nothing less.

The entire chapter of John 17 speaks to the idea of being one with God and God is love.

1John 4: 8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

What I'm talking about is the idea that the overall principle written in our hearts is Love.

Have you talked about that? My impression was that most seventh day observers are reluctant to talk about principles being written in our hearts.