Sabbath and the New Covenant

[Gary K]

indeed - as noted in my previous post.

And Rom 2 says "26 So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will his uncircumcision not be regarded as circumcision? 27 And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a violator of the Law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from people, but from God.

Is this news to you ? Have you been thinking that the "New Covenant is not for you"???

If so - I have learned something new today.


If they are born-again Christians under the New Covenant -- then "yes".

The Bible never says the lost are under the New Covenant - rather in Rom 2:19-20 we see that they are still under the old covenant "obey and live" and since all have sinned - they are lost under that covenant.

Perhaps this is the part you knew all along -- so not sure why it is such a question in your mind at this point.

Certainly you are right - a very large group of humans do not have that New Covenant condition of the Law of God written on the heart.

I cannot argue with that.

You will need to prove that accusation first.


ad hominem may be fun for you - but it is not a compelling form of argument.
State a fact instead.

Bob,

This is where we part ways. The condition of salvation has always been obey and live. The NC just makes true obedience possible. Do you really believe that a person can be saved living in conflict with God's law?

Here is one of many of Ellen White's comments on this.

All true obedience comes from the heart. It was heart work with
Christ. And if we consent, He will so identify Himself with our
thoughts and aims, so blend our hearts and minds into conformity to
His will, that when obeying Him we shall be but carrying out our
own impulses. The will, refined and sanctified, will find its highest
delight in doing His service. When we know God as it is our privilege
to know Him, our life will be a life of continual obedience. Through
an appreciation of the character of Christ, through communion with
God, sin will become hateful to us.
As Christ lived the law in humanity, so we may do if we will
take hold of the Strong for strength. But we are not to place the
responsibility of our duty upon others, and wait for them to tell us
what to do. We cannot depend for counsel upon humanity. The Lord
will teach us our duty just as willingly as He will teach somebody
else. If we come to Him in faith, He will speak His mysteries to us
personally. Our hearts will often burn within us as One draws nigh
to commune with us as He did with Enoch. DofA p. 668

 

[AbbaLove]

Hi BobRyan

Is that a Yes, you do believe the seventh day Sabbath was written on the hearts of people from the very beginning?

If so, do you believe that a sacred day gathering was also written on the hearts of people from the very beginning?

Am just now reading (p.1) into this thread ...

Was not the "Law" written for uncircumicsed hearts? There is no longer a need for 613 commands/statutes once hearts are circumcised by the Word (John 1:1,14,18) via His Spirit.

Only God knows for sure those having a truly born again circumcised heart.

 

[Leaf473]

BobRyan said:

Already answered here #5 - (for those who read the entire posts)

Obviously your practice not actually reading the post is not actually helping your argument here.


Where I "read it for you" in terms of the post section that you are carefully not reading.

No Bible text says that all humans are under the New Covenant.

Not what I asked.

As we all know -- not sure why this is still confusing to you even though it has been pointed out a few times.

How in the world do you even get to that idea??

 

[Leaf473]

BobRyan said:
Already answered here #5 - (for those who read the entire posts)
And I noted the "please repeat what you just said" element that some choose as their response to it -- here #34

I find your usual practice of 'read it for me again please' rather odd but you seem to enjoy it , predictably

That is where we find this -



And this

and this

and this

and this

Notice that I predicted I would be asked to post that same info "again and again".

And then a sort of "well then read it for me" series of responses

Not what I'm saying, though it may be what you're hearing.

Peace be with you, my brother

 

[Leaf473]

Am just now reading (p.1) into this thread ...

Was not the "Law" written for uncircumicsed hearts? There is no longer a need for 613 commands/statutes once hearts are circumcised by the Word (John 1:1,14,18) via His Spirit.

Only God knows for sure those having a truly born again circumcised heart.

Yes, sounds good

Bible Gateway passage: 1 Timothy 1:9 - New International Reader's Version

We also know that the law isn’t made for godly people. It is made for those who break the law. It is for those who refuse to obey. It is for ungodly and sinful people. It is for those who aren’t holy and who don’t believe. It is for those who kill their fathers or mothers. It is for murderers.

www.biblegateway.com

 

[Bob S]

Don't you believe in the work of the Holy Spirit?

Who needs the ten when we have the Holy Spirit dwelling in us. THANKS FOR THE QUESTION. This is exactly what Paul was writing to the church at Corinth there in 2Cor3:6-11 6 He has given us the power to serve under a new covenant. The covenant is not based on the written Law of Moses. It comes from the Holy Spirit. The written Law kills, but the Spirit gives life...........

Amen!!! Brother

 

[Leaf473]

Who needs the ten when we have the Holy Spirit dwelling in us. THANKS FOR THE QUESTION. This is exactly what Paul was writing to the church at Corinth there in 2Cor3:6-11 6 He has given us the power to serve under a new covenant. The covenant is not based on the written Law of Moses. It comes from the Holy Spirit. The written Law kills, but the Spirit gives life...........

Amen!!! Brother

That's right. We don't need a written copy of the 10, either on paper or stone, if the same thing is written on our hearts.

 

[Gary K]

Who needs the ten when we have the Holy Spirit dwelling in us. THANKS FOR THE QUESTION. This is exactly what Paul was writing to the church at Corinth there in 2Cor3:6-11 6 He has given us the power to serve under a new covenant. The covenant is not based on the written Law of Moses. It comes from the Holy Spirit. The written Law kills, but the Spirit gives life...........

Amen!!! Brother

What's all that have to do with what I asked you?

Let's look at the results of the NC,

Jeremiah 31: 31 ¶ Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

What is the result of having the law of God written in our hearts? Those who participate in the new covenant will all know God personally. That's how we get to know Him.

Now notice the exact parallel in Jesus' prayer in John 17.

John 17: 1 THESE words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

So salvation is simply based upon knowing who God is by having the 10 commandments written in our heats because we find out just how loving, kind, just and merciful He truly is. That knowledge melts our cold hard hearts and causes us to obey Him. Thus this is righteousness by faith for it changes us on the inside. It reveals God's creative power to each of us who desire to be made into His image. That is participating in the NC.

I am daily learning this by experience.

 

[Bob S]

What's all that have to do with what I asked you?

Let's look at the results of the NC,

Jeremiah 31: 31 ¶ Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

The Word was speaking to Jeremiah Gary. The Word is Jesus in the flesh. In the flesh Jesus gave us a new command to love others as he loves us, Jesus kept His Father's Torah and asks us in turn to love. Love is what is written on our hearts and with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and Jesus shed blood for our sins how could we go wrong by abiding in Him?

Jesus didn't give the new covenant to Gentiles Gary, He gave it to Judah and Israel. We gentiles have the covenant of grace through faith just as it was given to Abraham. All mankind is free of the Mosaic covenant. Israel and Judah do not have to submit to Torah. That covenant ended at Calvary. It is so very easy to understand, and I certainly do not understand why you keep fighting that fact.

Once again, why did Paul write to the Jews in Corinth that the ten were actually the ministry of death and they were no longer under those TEMPORARY commands? 2Cor3:6-11

What is the result of having the law of God written in our hearts? Those who participate in the new covenant will all know God personally. That's how we get to know Him.

We get to know Jesus and our fellow man by the love we show them.

Now notice the exact parallel in Jesus' prayer in John 17.

John 17: 1 THESE words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

JASON UPTON​

They Will Know We Are Christians By Our Love Lyrics



We are one in the Spirit
We are one in the Lord
We are one in the Spirit
We are one in the Lord
And we pray that all unity
May one day be restored

And they'll know we are Christians
By our love, By our love
Yes, they'll know we are Christians
By our love

We will walk with each other
We will walk hand in hand
We will walk with each other
We will walk hand in hand
And together we'll spread the news
That God is in our land

And they'll know we are Christians
By our love, By our love
Yes, they'll know we are Christians
By our love

So salvation is simply based upon knowing who God is by having the 10 commandments written in our heats because we find out just how loving, kind, just and merciful He truly is. That knowledge melts our cold hard hearts and causes us to obey Him. Thus this is righteousness by faith for it changes us on the inside. It reveals God's creative power to each of us who desire to be made into His image. That is participating in the NC.

I am daily learning this by experience.

I am so happy you are learning, I am too.

As I have reiterated many times the ten were just the beginning of all the sins we can commit. They were a 101 course for Israel to get started. Again, I submit to you that there is not one word in the ten that is about love which is the greatest command. Why won't you recognize this? They became a curse to Israel. Paul called them the ministry of death and told us they were no longer the guide for Israel. All mankind now has the indwelling of the Holy Spirit as our guide unless we do the unpardonable sin.

 

[Gary K]

The Word was speaking to Jeremiah Gary. The Word is Jesus in the flesh. In the flesh Jesus gave us a new command to love others as he loves us, Jesus kept His Father's Torah and asks us in turn to love. Love is what is written on our hearts and with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and Jesus shed blood for our sins how could we go wrong by abiding in Him?

Jesus didn't give the new covenant to Gentiles Gary, He gave it to Judah and Israel. We gentiles have the covenant of grace through faith just as it was given to Abraham. All mankind is free of the Mosaic covenant. Israel and Judah do not have to submit to Torah. That covenant ended at Calvary. It is so very easy to understand, and I certainly do not understand why you keep fighting that fact.

Once again, why did Paul write to the Jews in Corinth that the ten were actually the ministry of death and they were no longer under those TEMPORARY commands? 2Cor3:6-11

We get to know Jesus and our fellow man by the love we show them.

JASON UPTON​

They Will Know We Are Christians By Our Love Lyrics



We are one in the Spirit
We are one in the Lord
We are one in the Spirit
We are one in the Lord
And we pray that all unity
May one day be restored

And they'll know we are Christians
By our love, By our love
Yes, they'll know we are Christians
By our love

We will walk with each other
We will walk hand in hand
We will walk with each other
We will walk hand in hand
And together we'll spread the news
That God is in our land

And they'll know we are Christians
By our love, By our love
Yes, they'll know we are Christians
By our love

I am so happy you are learning, I am too.

As I have reiterated many times the ten were just the beginning of all the sins we can commit. They were a 101 course for Israel to get started. Again, I submit to you that there is not one word in the ten that is about love which is the greatest command. Why won't you recognize this? They became a curse to Israel. Paul called them the ministry of death and told us they were no longer the guide for Israel. All mankind now has the indwelling of the Holy Spirit as our guide unless we do the unpardonable sin.

The results, Bob. The results. Identical to Jesus' prayer in John 17: 1-3.

 

[BobRyan]

Am just now reading (p.1) into this thread ...

Was not the "Law" written for uncircumicsed hearts? There is no longer a need for 613 commands/statutes once hearts are circumcised by the Word (John 1:1,14,18) via His Spirit.

1. There are 1050 commands in the NT - and 613 in the Old .. is it your claim that we can limit God?
2. John 1 speaks about the heart before the cross. John 3:16 - new birth -- before the cross. A pre-cross teaching known to OT scholars according to Christ in John 3.
3. Only ONE Gospel Gal 1:6-9
4. That on and only gospel "preached to Abraham" Gal 3:8
5. The Gospel preached to us just as it was to them also Heb 4:2

God's Law says "Love Me and keep My Commandments" Ex 20:6
Jesus said "If you Love Me Keep My commandments" John 14:15
the saints "KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12
"This IS the LOVE of God that we KEEP His Commandments" 1 John 5:3

where "The first commandment with a promise is Honor your father and mother" Eph 6:2

 

[BobRyan]

That's right. We don't need a written copy of the 10, either on paper or stone,

People often assume they do not need scripture.,

History has proven them in error on that point

What we do not see in history is that all of God's commandments are written on the heart of all humanity - such that all are under the New Covenant.

details matter.

 

[BobRyan]

then is this law also written on the hearts of all humans from the beginning?

No Bible text says that all humans are under the New Covenant Jer 31:31-34 (which is where we find the promise of God's Law written on the heart) . As we all know --

not sure why this is still confusing to you even though it has been pointed out a few times.

How in the world do you even get to that idea (of all humans having God's law written on their heart) ??

Not what I asked.

I am ok with following the details in the post.

Are you not ok with that???

 

[BobRyan]

Bob,

This is where we part ways. The condition of salvation has always been obey and live

In Eden - Gen 2 we find "obey and live". One sin, one mistake - and then it was "death" -- not "eternal life". Gen 2 was not the covenant of "even if you do not obey - I will obey for you and you will be just fine". God was not "offering salvation" in Gen 2 - He was stating the covenant condition for eternal life -- for paradise. And they already had it - they were not trying to gain it - they had it.

But Adam and Eve gave all that away.

All humans today live under the "obey and live" -- Old Covenant of Gen 2 -- still and as Rom 3:19-20 shows - that is why all are condemned - all are destined for the lake of fire. Because Rom 3:23 - all have sinned.

But under the Gospel - we have the New Covenant of Jer 31:31-34 which includes "forgiveness of sins". The agreement in Gen 2 did not include that. The old covenant only had "death" in the case of disobedience.

Rom 3:19 says the result of that is that the whole world is guilty, condemned, doomed. Even to this day for those who do not choose to accept the New Covenant.

------------- and since you asked about this -

"The terms of the “old covenant” were, Obey and live: “If a man do, he shall even live in them” (Ezekiel 20:11; Leviticus 18:5); but “cursed be he that confirmeth not all the words of this law to do them.” Deuteronomy 27:26. The “new covenant” was established upon “better promises”—the promise of forgiveness of sins and of the grace of God to renew the heart and bring it into harmony with the principles of God’s law. “This shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts.... I will forgive their iniquity, and will remember their sin no more.” Jeremiah 31:33, 34. {PP 372.1}

 

[Leaf473]

JASON UPTON​

They Will Know We Are Christians By Our Love Lyrics

I love that song

 

[Leaf473]

People often assume they do not need scripture.,

That would be straw man reasoning, BobRyan my man

What I wrote in post #67 is,
"We don't need a written copy of the 10, either on paper or stone, if the same thing is written on our hearts."

History has proven them in error on that point

What we do not see in history is that all of God's commandments are written on the heart of all humanity - such that all are under the New Covenant.

details matter.

 

[Leaf473]

No Bible text says that all humans are under the New Covenant Jer 31:31-34 (which is where we find the promise of God's Law written on the heart) . As we all know --

not sure why this is still confusing to you even though it has been pointed out a few times.

How in the world do you even get to that idea (of all humans having God's law written on their heart) ??

I am ok with following the details in the post.

Are you not ok with that???

I asked about "all humans from the beginning" not "all humans who are under the New Covenant".

But it sounds like your answer to my question in post #51 is "No". Good, we agree there

 

[Leaf473]

Now, regarding the New Covenant, does everyone in the New Covenant have the Sabbath commandment written in their hearts?

If so, is it written in letters that can be reproduced here?

If yes to the first two questions, it seems like it follows that someone who does not have the Sabbath commandment written in their heart in letters is not in the New Covenant.

 

[Bob S]

Hi Leaf, I have asked the question about the Sabbath being written in/on our hearts so many times. If it were then it would seem like everyone would know about it, but as we can see so plainly people around the World are not ceasing from doing their own thing on the supposedly Holy Day. It is quite the contrary, most of the Earth's population uses that day to recreate. And the odd thing is no one seems to have any miss feelings. The indwelling of the Holy Spirit isn't prompting anyone to have any compulsion to observe the old covenant Israelite Sabbath. For years the SDA church I belonged to would send countless dollars putting on evangelistic meetings in expensive places and almost literally beg the attendees to accept the Sabbath with very little response. Even of the ones who did feel the need, at the time soon left out the back door.

There are hundreds of societies around the World that have never heard of the old Israelite Sabbath, so I have to believe the SDAs are completely off track with their claim that the ten are written on our hearts. It is a complete fable.

 

[Leaf473]

Hi Leaf, I have asked the question about the Sabbath being written in/on our hearts so many times. If it were then it would seem like everyone would know about it, but as we can see so plainly people around the World are not ceasing from doing their own thing on the supposedly Holy Day. It is quite the contrary, most of the Earth's population uses that day to recreate. And the odd thing is no one seems to have any miss feelings. The indwelling of the Holy Spirit isn't prompting anyone to have any compulsion to observe the old covenant Israelite Sabbath. For years the SDA church I belonged to would send countless dollars putting on evangelistic meetings in expensive places and almost literally beg the attendees to accept the Sabbath with very little response. Even of the ones who did feel the need, at the time soon left out the back door.

There are hundreds of societies around the World that have never heard of the old Israelite Sabbath, so I have to believe the SDAs are completely off track with their claim that the ten are written on our hearts. It is a complete fable.

Hi Bob, Yep! And especially when it comes to the New Covenant, why do many otherwise devout Christians not observe a Seventh-Day Sabbath?

The reason I've often heard given is that they've been deceived. This passage from Acts is often cited.

Bible Gateway passage: Acts 17:30 - King James Version

And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

www.biblegateway.com

The idea is that God winked at the times of ignorance about the seventh day Sabbath. But since God writes his laws on our hearts in the New Covenant, there could be no times of ignorance regarding the Sabbath.