Michael Moore Insults Sniper...

Supreme

British
Jul 30, 2009
11,890
490
London
✟22,685.00
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Single
For what it's worth, he's right. Snipers hide, and shoot from afar, with little risk of return fire being accurate. Of course, we *need* snipers in our armies, and the jobs they do are important. I've just never liked the idea of soldiers not getting to look to see where the bullet that'll kill them is coming from.
 
Upvote 0

DaisyDay

I Did Nothing Wrong!! ~~Team Deep State
Jan 7, 2003
37,888
17,390
Finger Lakes
✟6,043.00
Country
United States
Faith
Unitarian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
There is a moral dilemma.

I suppose, by Moore's logic, that bomber pilots and drone pilots are as cowardly as snipers.
Bomber pilots get shot at while drone pilots do not. Drone piloting is not a brave endeavor, whatever else it may be.
 
Upvote 0

Bedford

Newbie
May 10, 2013
4,842
161
✟13,490.00
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
Single
Bomber pilots get shot at while drone pilots do not. Drone piloting is not a brave endeavor, whatever else it may be.

The point is killing from a distance, like a sniper. Is it any worse to shoot somebody in the back or to blow their back off of their body with a bomb? I am not making a judgement, just an observation.
 
Upvote 0

TLK Valentine

I've already read the books you want burned.
Apr 15, 2012
64,493
30,319
Behind the 8-ball, but ahead of the curve.
✟541,512.00
Country
United States
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Single
...but how much of that should be put on the soldier personally vs. military leadership.

Unless you're a higher ranking officer, you're taking/following orders.

It's not as if a soldier gets briefed on a mission, and then can say "you know, I thought about it, I decided I don't want to do this one Col...sorry maybe next time"

Sure, the soldier makes the choice to enlist...but from there, they don't know what kind of assignments they will be given.

History has shown us how effective a defense of "I was only following orders" really is.

No matter what uniform you put on, your first sworn duty must always be to your conscience.
 
Upvote 0

He is Risen 72

Colossians 2:14 The Law is nailed to the Cross!!
Sep 3, 2013
1,730
696
Michigan
✟27,787.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Jesse Ventura won a lawsuit against this lying sniper.


I hope the book and movie are classified under fiction, for all the made- up parts.

Of course, one of them happened to be dead and unable to defend themselves, but whatever.
 
Upvote 0

Aureus

Regular Member
May 20, 2014
801
61
✟9,262.00
Faith
Deist
Marital Status
Private
Of course, one of them happened to be dead and unable to defend themselves, but whatever.

The lawsuit was in place before the sniper died. The guy's book seems to be littered with lies and the many of the guy's personal claims seem to either be bravado or just disgusting if true. He's not someone to look up to or admire.

And of course his estate did a perfectly good job of attempting to defend him seeing as the reputation of the sniper is how they get to keep making money.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

ThatRobGuy

Part of the IT crowd
Supporter
Sep 4, 2005
24,587
14,461
Here
✟1,191,086.00
Country
United States
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
History has shown us how effective a defense of "I was only following orders" really is.

No matter what uniform you put on, your first sworn duty must always be to your conscience.

...that's easier said than done.

It's easy for someone to sit back and say "well your first sworn duty is to your conscience", however, they're not the 19-20 year old kid being faced with following orders or spending 2 years in the brig and forfeiting pay for those 2 years.
 
Upvote 0

He is Risen 72

Colossians 2:14 The Law is nailed to the Cross!!
Sep 3, 2013
1,730
696
Michigan
✟27,787.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
The lawsuit was in place before the sniper died. The guy's book seems to be littered with lies and the many of the guy's personal claims seem to either be bravado or just disgusting if true. He's not someone to look up to or admire.

And of course his estate did a perfectly good job of attempting to defend him seeing as the reputation of the sniper is how they get to keep making money.

A book littered with lies! Say it isn’t so!

kb51yv.jpg
 
  • Like
Reactions: nightflight
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Sistrin

We are such stuff as dreams are made on...
Supporter
Jun 9, 2012
6,488
3,399
Location Location Location
✟197,980.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
No matter what uniform you put on, your first sworn duty must always be to your conscience.

The first duty is to the truth. This is followed by the mission, and then the men. But without the truth, any mission will ultimately suffer.
 
Upvote 0

Sistrin

We are such stuff as dreams are made on...
Supporter
Jun 9, 2012
6,488
3,399
Location Location Location
✟197,980.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Upvote 0

TLK Valentine

I've already read the books you want burned.
Apr 15, 2012
64,493
30,319
Behind the 8-ball, but ahead of the curve.
✟541,512.00
Country
United States
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Single
...that's easier said than done.

Doing the right thing often is.

It's easy for someone to sit back and say "well your first sworn duty is to your conscience", however, they're not the 19-20 year old kid being faced with following orders or spending 2 years in the brig and forfeiting pay for those 2 years.

Again, I never said do what was easy; only to do what is right.
 
Upvote 0
Jan 25, 2013
3,501
476
✟58,340.00
Faith
Muslim
Marital Status
Private
@ title....and why shouldn't the sniper be insulted? He was a loathsome creature, far from being hailed as any sort of "hero".

As Laura Miller wrote in Salon: “In Kyle’s version of the Iraq war, the parties consisted of Americans, who are good by virtue of being American, and fanatic Muslims whose ‘savage, despicable evil’ led them to want to kill Americans simply because they are Christians.”

The real American Sniper was a hate-filled killer. Why are simplistic patriots treating him as a hero? | Lindy West | Comment is free | The Guardian

"Savage, despicable evil. That's what we were fighting in Iraq," Kyle wrote. "I only wish I had killed more."

'American Sniper' Triggers Flood Of Anti-Muslim Venom, Civil Rights Group Warns
 
Upvote 0

SuperCloud

Newbie
Sep 8, 2014
2,292
228
✟3,725.00
Faith
Seeker
Marital Status
Single
I agree with the one quote in the article.. War isn't black and white, but many shades of gray. When you're a part of it you try to convince yourself of it in terms of black and white to justify yourself.

Yeah, I agree with that. Ergo, I'm not a "hater" of the Crusades (which modern folks have been propagandized into believing was soooooo terribly wrong).

And even being a young German during the 1930s serving in the Germany military did not necessarily make you an evil person in my view. Especially in light of the astronomical numbers of German soldiers executed on spot--for infractions as minor as giggling in formation--by more senior German soldiers, to maintain unquestioning obedience.

I remember reading a short essay about the Polish fighters during WWII. I found out the Poles were caught between a rock and hard place, fighting Nazis Germans on one hand and fighting the Communist Russians on the other hand. I was like... :scratch: "Can you imagine being in a more screwed position?"
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

SuperCloud

Newbie
Sep 8, 2014
2,292
228
✟3,725.00
Faith
Seeker
Marital Status
Single
Would the same people calling Kyle a coward call a WWII sniper who killed Nazis a coward as well?

I doubt it. Especially the female Russians--who if memory serves me correct--produced a number of successful Russian snipers targeting German soldiers.

I gained a lot of appreciation for the overall craft of the snipers when I read that book on that famous Marine sniper of the Vietnam War. I mean... this guy was going out with his "spotter" (I think they call them) and tracking down, hunting, specific men in the jungles of Vietnam. And one day he sees--according to him--a light flash from possibly a piece of glass. Looking through his scope he sees a counter sniper aiming in on his spotter. And in this shot he supposedly shoots the counter sniper through his own scope lens, thereby saving the life of his spotter. That's where I believe that sniper movie starring Tom Berringer (spelling) got that one scene from.

That was during the age before GPS satellite signals and portable computer devices. So, you had to have some considerable skills to track--literally hunt down--individual men.

Actually, in Latin America they appear to have a small number of men extraordinarily capable in this ancient art of tracking other men and women through jungles. Apparently, they learned these skills from the Amerindians.

America produces good and entertaining movies. It also has produced the most technologically advanced (and largest) military on earth. But if the lights ever went out on computers then U.S. military and its special operations forces would find themselves a lot less lethal, and men of primitive skills (that take decades to develop) a lot more formidable.
 
Upvote 0

SuperCloud

Newbie
Sep 8, 2014
2,292
228
✟3,725.00
Faith
Seeker
Marital Status
Single
Of course, one of them happened to be dead and unable to defend themselves, but whatever.

Why should the testimony of one man be of such astronomical need when living witnesses (and Kyle's own written testimony--vague in identification as it was) are around?

If I need living people to defend their own autobiographical narrative, then what is the use of biographies (not autobiographies), written history, and why should I believe one single think about George Washington or any American hero long gone?

And in fact I regard writing history as more of an art than a science. Every other American can with confidence bump their gums about what they know are facts and truths about the Crusades or some Pope that lived 500 or even 1,000 years ago. But with the best forensic science, best investigative tools and techniques of our modern age, and living witnesses, and even the protagonists own recorded words, they still can't figure out if OJ Simpson is guilty of a double homicide or exactly how truthful Chris Kyle was at times. But yet Americans want me to trust with blind faith their agenda driven renditions of history. This includes subcategories of Americans too be they Protestants, blacks, feminists, LGBT, conservatives or what have you.

That a bunch of SEALs never stampeded to the defense of Kyle's widow, his estate, always bothered me. If someone was about to jack my dead homies wife, estate, out of large sums of money in court, then I would come to my homies widow's aid by testifying in court. I mean if numerous SEALs witnessed Jesse Ventura being punched and knocked down by Kyle then there are living witnesses. Why would Ventura go to court against 5, 10, 20, or however many Navy SEAL witnesses? So, all that put some question marks in my mind.
 
Upvote 0

AvilaSurfer

Well-Known Member
Supporter
May 14, 2015
9,736
4,784
NO
✟925,396.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
I wasn't going to see the movie. I don't care for war movies unless they're really old. But now these idiots spouting off about a situation they're completely ignorant about......well they've inspired me to go see it. They're gonna get my $10.
 
Upvote 0

SuperCloud

Newbie
Sep 8, 2014
2,292
228
✟3,725.00
Faith
Seeker
Marital Status
Single
I never read that Barack Obama book. It would not surprise me if it is has lies or tweaked things in it.

I read a book many years ago co-authored by two philosophers. The book was about how to read books. So, the authors wrote about how to read various genres of literature. One thing they cautioned was trusting too fully in the claims or narratives provided in autobiographies. They also suggested that when it comes to biographies you take into account who the author iis writing the book and if that author was hired by a person, family member, or group to write the book (and presumably paint a specific image of the dead person).

Autobiographies are great--or they can be. They provide a direct insight into the mind and views of a person via their own words. But even if I wrote a book about myself it would have some limitations even if I attempted with all my ability and desire to be as honest about myself as I could. I could not and can not stand from outside myself and view myself from that distant, objective observation point. It's only natural that I will interpret what I see, hear, or read through the filters of my own experiences and my own beliefs.

That's why biographies can be very helpful beside autobiographies. Of course, biographers have to grasp various subject matters from psychology to history and biographers can come with their own biases, agendas, or intellectual flaws as well.

The older I've gotten the far less I've come to believe in the perfect, good boy, hero narratives. I've come to find that most heroes are much more flawed people then that. Which is a good thing to me in that it gives hope for us lesser people in our own potentials.

My honest impression is that most Americans think that men of the special operations units are everything Republicans would picture an ideal man to be. Squeaky clean, religiously capitalist, mean that are self made, super human fighters, martyrs of righteousness led only by modern or traditional American values. And more especially that once these men honorably depart the service they don't become drug addicts, alcoholics, or unemployed. Rather... they become professionally successful men.

I think that is a large part of what is driving the Chris Kyle story. And I suspect it is an indirect assault on the masses of American military veterans. Especially as America's kings and queens endeavor to wage covert war against Russia in the Ukraine and the rich in the United States will look to make financial cuts to Iraqi and Afghan war vets that file for PTSD or have physical injuries or missing limbs resulting from their tours in those wars. And then use that money to welfare finance the Ukrainians as America's kings and queens draw horns on the images of President Putin.

I doubt Putin or Chris Kyle are or were respectively, saints. I doubt either are or were evil. Neither are heroes of mine but I can admire both in areas of their own skill sets where they do or did excel. Chris Kyle by nature of making it through both SEAL training and SEAL life, and by making it through sniper school (no easy school to pass through), and by his incredible success as a sniper, was without doubt an elite naval soldier. No question about that. And he was deadly at his trade. But I don't think the Republicans ought make moves against veteran's benefits because SEALs and other special operations members in other branches are a cut above the average.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

South Bound

I stand with Israel.
Jan 3, 2014
4,443
1,034
✟31,159.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I wasn't going to see the movie. I don't care for war movies unless they're really old. But now these idiots spouting off about a situation they're completely ignorant about......well they've inspired me to go see it. They're gonna get my $10.

I've seen it twice. You won't be sorry.

Normally, so much coarse language would disqualify a movie in our home.

Kyle was frequent guest on the Glenn Beck show before his death and he came across as a decent guy. So, I was interested when the movie came out.

My wife and I went to see it the first night and I was so impressed with its message ad the traits it portrayed and even celebrated, that I took my two older sons back to see it.
 
Upvote 0