Michael Moore Insults Sniper...

SoldierOfTheKing

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Supreme said:
I've just never liked the idea of soldiers not getting to look to see where the bullet that'll kill them is coming from.

How do you feel about soldiers not getting to look to see where the artillery shell that'll kill them is coming from? You know in modern warfare, probably since the Napoleonic War actually, artillery inflicts more casualties than anything else does.
 
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ChristsSoldier115

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How do you feel about soldiers not getting to look to see where the artillery shell that'll kill them is coming from? You know in modern warfare, probably since the Napoleonic War actually, artillery inflicts more casualties than anything else does.

I got a 1SG partially crippled from a rocket attack hitting the dfac he was in. My friend got a purple heart surviving a mortar round hitting the gym he was in. The guys we fought over there aren't exactly "honorable" themselves. Whatever that means. There is no "honorable" fighting in war today. People need to quit watching war movies as it makes them think war is some sort of honor thing of mano-e-mano. It isn't. It is cold, brutal, merciless, and not all of us can shut it off when we get home.
 
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AvilaSurfer

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I've just never liked the idea of soldiers not getting to look to see where the bullet that'll kill them is coming from.
Well too bad. War is hell. It's not a court where you face your accuser. Once you step into the arena, the rules change.

How do you feel about soldiers not getting to look to see where the artillery shell that'll kill them is coming from? You know in modern warfare, probably since the Napoleonic War actually, artillery inflicts more casualties than anything else does.
Exactly. Once you declare war, your job is to kill the enemy.

There is no "honorable" fighting in war today. People need to quit watching war movies as it makes them think war is some sort of honor thing of mano-e-mano. It isn't. It is cold, brutal, merciless, and not all of us can shut it off when we get home.

Let's don't pretend it was all honorable in the past. It wasn't.
 
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TLK Valentine

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Well too bad. War is hell. It's not a court where you face your accuser. Once you step into the arena, the rules change.


Exactly. Once you declare war, your job is to kill the enemy.



Let's don't pretend it was all honorable in the past. It wasn't.

Yeah, as much as I get the complaint of sniping=cowardice, it really doesn't add up to more than sour grapes.

A sniper puts himself in a position where he can kill the enemy, while (ideally) not getting killed by him. Isn't that the whole point of combat in a nutshell?

"Kill them; don't let them kill you." Not exactly West Point-level strategizing, is it?
 
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SuperCloud

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@ title....and why shouldn't the sniper be insulted? He was a loathsome creature, far from being hailed as any sort of "hero".

As Laura Miller wrote in Salon: “In Kyle’s version of the Iraq war, the parties consisted of Americans, who are good by virtue of being American, and fanatic Muslims whose ‘savage, despicable evil’ led them to want to kill Americans simply because they are Christians.”

The real American Sniper was a hate-filled killer. Why are simplistic patriots treating him as a hero? | Lindy West | Comment is free | The Guardian

"Savage, despicable evil. That's what we were fighting in Iraq," Kyle wrote. "I only wish I had killed more."

'American Sniper' Triggers Flood Of Anti-Muslim Venom, Civil Rights Group Warns

Okay, I finished reading the first three of the four articles you linked.

The drunk brawls can be an indicator of PTSD. Does not mean a person has it but it can be an indicator one has it. I remember reading years ago some Vietnam veteran writing about all the many knife scars he acquired after the Vietnam War due to all the many drunken bar brawls he got into--all due in large part to his PTSD he had not yet dealt with.

Of course, substance addiction like alcoholism is an indicator of PTSD too. Without any fights.

The "savages" thing is troublesome but tempered some (for myself) when understood in the light of dehumanizing one's opponent(s) being common among people engaged in battles.

Gang members due this all the time. Black-American gangs dehumanize Black-American members of their rival gangs.

Most people have trouble killing someone whom they give full respect to their humanity. Members of the KKK have in the past dehumanized the black citizens of the United States they lynched.

It's a little more mature to kill someone that you respect, acknowledging their fully humanity, and possibly even admire. Not quite but kind of like boxing in the ring an opponent you fully respect and fully respecting their skills.

The main protagonist in this movie whom the Mel Gibson played was like this. He respected his enemy and studied his enemy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wYK4jrhepdU

From the articles and descriptions I get the sense Chris Kyle was a genuinely humble guy on some level. But a complex enough character that he also had some levels of false humility. And possibly insecurities that drove him to success. I get the sense he would probably make a better neighbor than most of your American gang members. I think he would help someone injured in the road too. He seems to have had many good qualities to him. But like most people I get the impression he had areas of himself he could have worked on.

I'm not sure what to make out of his enjoyment of sniping. Knowing some things about the military craft and having personally felt my own "rush" (adrenaline high) when running to General Quarters battle stations during the 1st Gulf War, I understand combatants can develop highs and likes for combat. This does not indicate they are evil. I think it's just the way the brain often (perhaps not always) works.

His not caring for politics (sympathies I share) is not entirely unusual in the military. He may or may not have read Clausewitz--and Claus was right that war is an extension of politics--but being an enlisted man in the Navy SEALs rather than an officer in the SEALs, it probably served him well to forgo the deep political inquiries and embroiling himself into emotionally charged political controversies. SEALs have their missions at hand to carry out and the objective to achieve. The enlisted ranks at least... have little need to debate the deeper politics.

After being discharged you might think more deeply and take stronger political positions. Though, Chris Kyle didn't seem to evolve that way after service, not in the time allotted he had left to live, or so that is the impression I've gotten.

But I'm happy SEALs, snipers, gang bangers, undercover cops, mafia soldiers and captains all write books. They allow normal, everyday people like myself some glimpses into their worlds.

I wish at least one member of the Milwaukee mafia had written about the Milwaukee mafia. But none have. According to the daughter of Frank Balisteiri (the former mob boss of Milwaukee) after his retirement from the mob, he spoke with a book agent in California about writing a book about his life. It never went down. I don't know if he got orders from Chicago not to make a book or not.

But the Milwaukee mafia has always been a lot more silent than Navy SEALs or Army Special Forces or Marine Force Recon. Not that members of the mafia are humble. The Black-American Larry Hoover former leader of the GD's gang would make millions off of writing an autobiography (I for one would buy it). But his apparently sworn oath to the Black-American street gang code of "omerta" seems to have won out.

SEALs and Army Special Forces are always talking about they are "silent warriors" as if they're as silent as the Milwaukee mafia has been with their sworn omerta, but in reality SEALs and Special Forces run their mouths more than street snitches.

And Chris Kyle in his book, apparently, going by quotes in the articles above, implies he's so humble he never has and does not talk to non-SEALs about being a SEAL. But he doing the exact opposite of that by having a book written about himself, approving no less of the title "America's most lethal sniper." This is false and pretended humility and omerta.
 
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brewmama

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I watched the movie, sweetiepie. Didn't contribute to it monetarily while doing so, though.

But good to see you don't deny that the film is nothing but conservative pro-war propaganda.

If you think that movie was pro-war propaganda, you either DIDN'T see it or didn't understand it at all.
 
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SoldierOfTheKing

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"While speaking at the Producers Guild Award Nominees Breakfast on Saturday, Clint Eastwood hit back at critics of his latest film American Sniper. "The biggest antiwar statement any film" can make is to show "the fact of what [war] does to the family and the people who have to go back into civilian life like Chris Kyle did," Clint Eastwood said. The film has faced heated criticism as some believe it portrays the Iraq War in a positive light. It has also dominated at the box office, raking in more than $100 million in its first week at the box office".

Eastwood: Film an 'Anti-War Statement'
 
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South Bound

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If you think that movie was pro-war propaganda, you either DIDN'T see it or didn't understand it at all.

I now have that particular poster on ignore, so I guess I'll never know, but that's what I thought when she said that.

Which part of the movie, exactly, are we supposed to believe is "pro-war propaganda"? The part where he becomes more sullen and withdrawn between tours? The part where he becomes so alienated from his family that he goes to a bar and gets drunk alone instead of going home after returning from his third deployment? The part where he anguishes over having to shoot women and children? The part where he watches his comrades die and visits them in the hospital? The disillusionment and death of his friend in an ambush? Or is it the toll it takes on his family? On his wife who is in constant fear for him? His children who don't see him for nine months at a time?

Either she did not see the film, as I believe is evident to all reading her posts, or she has a very warped view of "pro-war".
 
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wing2000

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"While speaking at the Producers Guild Award Nominees Breakfast on Saturday, Clint Eastwood hit back at critics of his latest film American Sniper. "The biggest antiwar statement any film" can make is to show "the fact of what [war] does to the family and the people who have to go back into civilian life like Chris Kyle did," Clint Eastwood said. The film has faced heated criticism as some believe it portrays the Iraq War in a positive light. It has also dominated at the box office, raking in more than $100 million in its first week at the box office".

Eastwood: Film an 'Anti-War Statement'

....except that Mr Eastwood did exclude some aspects of the man's character after he returned to civilian life.

Another reason for the backlash against American Sniper is the fantastical stories Kyle told about himself after he left the Navy. He said he killed two men who tried to carjack him in Texas. He said he went to New Orleans in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina and shot people from the roof of the Superdome. On the radio Opie & Anthony Show, he claimed to have punched former Minnesota governor (and Navy veteran) Jesse Ventura at a bar after Ventura supposedly made disparaging remarks about soldiers. 'American Sniper' Draws Some Fire From Critics : NPR

None of which occurred....
 
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South Bound

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....except that Mr Eastwood did exclude some aspects of the man's character after he returned to civilian life.



None of which occurred....

I think it would be more accurate of you to say "none of which has been verified", since you don't actually know that none of which has occurred.

In any event, none of those things are relevant to the film.
 
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