Is American Exceptionalism a lie??

[Cromulent]

The Irish are the descendants of the tribe of Dan, and tomorrow being St. Patty's Day makes my comments timely. That they govern (judge) themselves, even while under the umbrella of common state and national laws, is a phenomenon that is talked about whenever Irish-American history is discussed (as it is right now on many PBS stations). They even took over the priesthood of the Catholic churches in their communities so they would have Irish priests giving them instruction and communion. No other ethnic minority has so thoroughly taken over and entrenched themselves in the local power and government structures, for their own benefit and protection, as have the Irish in America.

Seems to me like a lot of biased thinking is going on there. What about the Catalans, the Scottish, the Basques? All of these actually have their own official parliaments, under the authority of a central government. And that's only when you restrict that prophecy to the very present day, as opposed to any of the other semi-autonomous tribes who have existed over the past 2800 years since the tribes of Israel were scattered or destroyed.

 

[TheReasoner]

We are a democratic republic with oligarchic tendencies.

No matter how much political influence the rich weild, the vote of the individual is still more powerful than Super PACs and lobbyists.

Well... Ish. That's all nice and neat in theory, but money=power. You can buy some very efficient tools to convince the masses to support you. It works, too. Just be well spoken enough, handsome enough and tell them of dangers to induce some fear in their hearts and you can get their support for the rich and powerful regardless of what would be wise for the people at large. And that most certainly does happen. Consider the republican aversion to unions for example. The right to organize is rather fundamental and a great way for the average joe to get a voice through unity with others. However, even many workers in the states dont want to be in unions, in part as far as I understand it because it's considered 'socialist', corrupt and - apparently - in league with the mafia. Weird stuff. Anyway, the point is: Wealth can be used for a wealthy elite to cement their position, in effect nullifying the freedom of the people while ensuring an illusion of freedom still exists.
One can easily spot techniques for doing this from both Plato, Machiavelli, Caesar and others. All speak of methods to herd the people into what the leaders want. Plato spoke of controlling the breeding of the people to create a master race (not his words) Machiavelli had several points concerning arming the populace, using religious lingo and apparent religious belief and more in order to strengthen a totalitarian ruler's position. And caesar (the one of these three I know the least about) can of course be quoted on this as well, "bread and circus" he says should be used to ensure a stable rule.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Seems to me like a lot of biased thinking is going on there. What about the Catalans, the Scottish, the Basques? All of these actually have their own official parliaments, under the authority of a central government. And that's only when you restrict that prophecy to the very present day, as opposed to any of the other semi-autonomous tribes who have existed over the past 2800 years since the tribes of Israel were scattered or destroyed.

A good place to start is determining whether God destroyed or scattered the tribes:

Amos 9
:8 Behold, the eyes of the Lord GOD are upon the sinful kingdom, and I will destroy it from off the face of the earth; saving that I will not utterly destroy the house of Jacob, saith the LORD.

:9 For, lo, I will command, and I will sift the house of Israel among all nations, like as corn is sifted in a sieve, yet shall not the least grain fall upon the earth.

This clearly shows that although the nation (the kingdom) of Israel was destroyed, the individual tribes survived and were scattered and traveled (were 'sifted') among the (gentile) nations. The 'least grain' refers to the 'least' of the tribes.

Succeeding verses indicate the millenial return to the middle east.

Then there's the endtime prophecies concerning every tribe, found in Genesis 49. To be fair these prophecies would begin when the 'last days' began, which was the advent of Christ. We don't know exactly when all were fulfilled, but some have clearly been within the last 200-300 years, mainly the ascent of Great Britain and America (Ephraim and Manasseh).

 

[disciple2011]

I think that God has preserved the tribal 'bloodlines' to his satisfaction. He said speaking of the tribes moving through the gentile nations that, "Not a 'grain' would fall to earth". He would preserve the 'seed' and 'plant' it in the place of his choosing.

He also commanded his subjects to love others as they love themselves.

King commands, subjects follow without question or hesitation. If they do not they are called what?

 

[disciple2011]

Ok, I'll give you that. But in theory, it is a unique Presidential system. It is not in theory an oligarchy, in practice it may be.

And I never said it was exceptional.

The US Constitution show clearly it is an oligarchy when it empowered the Electoral College.

It is by plan and by practice. An elite body gets to choose who leads. Just like it has since the days of tribal elders.

Humans are primates and so they follow the same primate ways.

 

[disciple2011]

We are a democratic republic with oligarchic tendencies.

No matter how much political influence the rich weild, the vote of the individual is still more powerful than Super PACs and lobbyists.

If that is so then why are only the wealthy chosen to run and are in power?

Where is the common man president? Where is the common man congressman or judge? Can anyone any single income person under 35k a year run for and be elected to legislative, judicial or executive branch in the federal government? Can anyone under 100k be elected?

Find me someone that has one of those positions that makes under 35k a year. Bring him forth.

 

[disciple2011]

They were still here technically before all others (save Native Americans, who were [in theory] here first).

First doesn't mean squat when we all are immigrants.

 

[SmellsLikeCurlyFries]

First doesn't mean squat when we all are immigrants.

So what?

 

[Suomipoika]

You haven't seen us particularly more inclined toward Imperialism and warmongering in the last thirty years?

Last 30 years?

When and why was the Canal of Panama built again and how was the U.S. involved?

Wasn't anyone in the U.S. seriously talking about "paternally" conquering Mexico and all of South America in the name of the Manifest Destiny already in the mid 1800's?

 

[SmellsLikeCurlyFries]

Last 30 years?

When and why was the Canal of Panama built again and how was the U.S. involved?

Wasn't anyone in the U.S. seriously talking about "paternally" conquering Mexico and all of South America in the name of the Manifest Destiny already in the mid 1800's?

I said "particularly more inclined," as in we always have been but especially in the last thirty years.

 

[Suomipoika]

I said "particularly more inclined," as in we always have been but especially in the last thirty years.

That's very true. Different periods have seen different degrees of deviation from the Monroe Doctrine, the past few decades belonging to the farthest of them.

 

[Suomipoika]

Ok, I'll give you that. But in theory, it is a unique Presidential system. It is not in theory an oligarchy, in practice it may be.

And I never said it was exceptional.

What exactly do you mean by a "unique Presidential system"?

Back on topic......I agree with this. If you work hard in this country, you can be anything you want.

Anything you want? C'mon now..

 

[TheReasoner]

Anything you want? C'mon now..

Mmm. Cyborg ninja pirate astronaut!

Seriously though, that's of course nonsensical. You can't be anything you want if you just work hard enough. Not everyone have the personality or innate abilities to do whatever they want. I work extremely hard and do rather well at my field, but I have friends who work less and are much more skilled. Sure, they're (literally) geniuses and I'm not quite at that level, but even so it's a case in point. Not everyone can be Einstein, not everyone can be a highly successful musician. Only a few select can. No matter how much they work at it.

 

[Cromulent]

Yeah, the only reason these guys are still doing a horrible job, in hazardous conditions, getting up at half past four in the morning, is because they aren't working hard enough.

 

[rturner76]

Mmm. Cyborg ninja pirate astronaut!

Seriously though, that's of course nonsensical. You can't be anything you want if you just work hard enough. Not everyone have the personality or innate abilities to do whatever they want. I work extremely hard and do rather well at my field, but I have friends who work less and are much more skilled. Sure, they're (literally) geniuses and I'm not quite at that level, but even so it's a case in point. Not everyone can be Einstein, not everyone can be a highly successful musician. Only a few select can. No matter how much they work at it.

Maybe not a rock star but I know a few people that make enough money gigging around and doing small tours that they make a living doing what they love....playing music

It seems nieve [sic] but it doesn't mean you will be the best that ever did it. If you work hard enough long enough, you will make shift leader at Arby's.

What I really mean is I've been places where you really can not move from your station in life. If you as an individual decide at a young age you are going to take advantage of every educational opportunity and work opportunity, work hard, don't quit, move up the ladder, make a name for yourself, you will eventually make it to a place where you imagined yourself as a child. Maybe not Billboard but a place of success for sure. You just can't quit or loose sight of that goal and have a plan.

Not everyone but anyone. On an individual level, the masses don't do all it all 100% until they get there. We get side tracked or settle for something else.

 

[rturner76]

Yeah, the only reason these guys are still doing a horrible job, in hazardous conditions, getting up at half past four in the morning, is because they aren't working hard enough.

Believe me, I had my share of stinky jobs where I cleaned toilets at the mall on 3rd [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] scraping feces off the wall. It was no fun but it did it and made it shiny! I worked at it long enough to get a transfer to somewhere better and worked hard there until I was a manager and did more administrative work. Then I realized I didn't even like the business so I went back to school when I had a chance. I was blessed to not have a wife and kids of I would still be there. That's what I mean about getting side tracked or working a certain plan. I'm on plan # 6 I think. Realtor. Plan #7 is in the works hehe.

BTW Any of you guys need an inexpensive condo in the States? Minnesota is Awesome. The Twin Cities is a great place to raise a family or enjoy the night life all ages and lifestyles are welcome and enjoy the "City of Lakes" Mississippi River mile is beautiful any time of year! Condos prices starting at 30k for something simple

 

[Suomipoika]

Maybe not a rock star but..

Whoa whoa wait, you said "anything you want"...

Not everyone but anyone.

Of course, this isn't a uniquely American characteristic among the nations of the world. There are countries that have more de facto social mobility than the U.S. today. The U.S. I believe used to be no.1 in this category back in the day...

BTW Any of you guys need an inexpensive condo in the States? Minnesota is Awesome. The Twin Cities is a great place to raise a family or enjoy the night life all ages and lifestyles are welcome and enjoy the "City of Lakes" Mississippi River mile is beautiful any time of year! Condos prices starting at 30k for something simple

Cool, appreciated!

 

[rturner76]

Whoa whoa wait, you said "anything you want"...

Yeah, anything is a big word you got me. Just about anything. If it were one of my kids I would say anything so they work hard in school.

Yeah, it's just an American thing but I think there's more room here than a lot of places. The country used to have a different idea about immigration when it was western Europeans coming over it was open borders.

 

[Suomipoika]

Yeah, anything is a big word you got me. Just about anything. If it were one of my kids I would say anything so they work hard in school.

Yep, that is a good way to encourage kids. Works as a "pragmatic truth" in their upbringing...

The country used to have a different idea about immigration when it was western Europeans coming over it was open borders.

I'm actually just writing my Master's Degree thesis about Finnish-American immigrant Lutherans in the 1920's - the time when the strict new immigration laws took place and things started to change.

Lots of stuff from Minnesota in my sources btw..

 

[TheReasoner]

Yeah, anything is a big word you got me. Just about anything. If it were one of my kids I would say anything so they work hard in school.

Yet many opportunities are closed due to financial concerns which are bigger for citizens in the states than in other western countries. Ones hopes may be dashed by mistakes or mishaps that would be trivial elsewhere. Consider a family wracked by disease and trouble said family could neither predict nor prevent. That might - and does - seriously hamper the possibility for success among that family's members. IF they live in the US. The chance of such events being crippeling would be less evident in other western countries.

Yeah, it's just an American thing but I think there's more room here than a lot of places. The country used to have a different idea about immigration when it was western Europeans coming over it was open borders.

Did it?
Are you familiar with the "Know Nothing" movement and the antebellum American party, 1845-1860? Hardly the warm open arms you describe. Same deal with the anti-chinese sentiments during the 1800s, and the anti-German sentiments of the 18-1900s. Since then this has continued.

In fact, you had your war of independence which lasted till 1783, and in 1798 the first law (The first one I know of anyway) limiting the rights and opportunities of immigrants was passed in the states...

So when was the US displaying the so much talked about openness to immigrants? 1783-1798?

Alright, this is a little overdone. However, the point I am trying to make is that nothing is all that simple. A golden past is seldom nearly as golden as we like to make it out to be.