How is Once Saved Always Saved not a license to sin? (moved)

[Bible Highlighter]

How would God not know it was if it were a license to sin? And therein not persevere with his promise in those who love him and are reborn in the spirit?

I don't think you seem to understand where I am coming from. You are basically saying that once a person is saved, they are forever saved. But this presents a problem, though. It tells a person that they do not need to worry about the consequences of sin anymore in regards to their salvation. Let me use a real world example to illustrate. If modern medicine provided a free natural miracle cure for weight loss (no matter what kind of diet you had), what do you think will happen in time? More people would not worry about what they would eat as much anymore. They would then have no consequences whatsoever in worrying about what they would eat. So they could eat all the junk food, and fatty foods they liked and enjoyed and have no ill side effects because of this new natural medical cure in modern medicine that was free to all. It's the same when you tell someone that there is no real consequence to them sinning in regards to their salvation. If you say that, then they are going to do a particular sin or two that they enjoy and think God just automatically forgives them for it because of some type of false OSAS belief. But the Bible says he that confesses and forsakes sin shall have mercy (Proverbs 28:13).

Also, if you are proposing that all born again saved believers are going to automatically forgive, then you have to explain who Jesus was talking to in Matthew 6:15.

 

[Blank Stair]

I don't believe I misunderstood you. I appreciate how you see it. I just shared my own opinion.
There's no cause for argument.

I don't think you seem to understand where I am coming from. You are basically saying that once a person is saved, they are forever saved. But this presents a problem, though. It tells a person that they do not need to worry about the consequences of sin anymore in regards to their salvation. Let me use a real world example to illustrate. If modern medicine provided a free natural miracle cure for weight loss (no matter what kind of diet you had), what do you think will happen in time? More people would not worry about what they would eat as much anymore. They would then have no consequences whatsoever in worrying about what they would eat. So they could eat all the junk food, and fatty foods they liked and enjoyed and have no ill side effects because of this new natural medical cure in modern medicine that was free to all. It's the same when you tell someone that there is no real consequence to them sinning in regards to their salvation. If you say that, then they are going to do a particular sin or two that they enjoy and think God just automatically forgives them for it because of some type of false OSAS belief. But the Bible says he that confesses and forsakes sin shall have mercy (Proverbs 28:13).

Also, if you are proposing that all born again saved believers are going to automatically forgive, then you have to explain who Jesus was talking to in Matthew 6:15.

 

[Steeno7]

“But all the while, there was one thing we most needed even from the start, and certainly will need from here on out into the New Jerusalem: the ability to take our freedom seriously and act on it, to live not in fear of mistakes but in the knowledge that no mistake can hold a candle to the love that draws us home. My repentance, accordingly, is not so much for my failings but for the two-bit attitude toward them by which I made them more sovereign than grace. Grace - the imperative to hear the music, not just listen for errors - makes all infirmities occasions of glory.”

"The life of grace is not an effort on our part to achieve a goal we set ourselves. It is a continually renewed attempt simply to believe that someone else has done all the achieving that is needed and to live in relationship with that person, whether we achieve or not. If that doesn't seem like much to you, you're right: it isn't. And, as a matter of fact, the life of grace is even less than that. It's not even our life at all, but the life of that Someone Else rising like a tide in the ruins of our death.”

― Robert Farrar Capon, Between Noon & Three: Romance, Law & the Outrage of Grace

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I don't believe I misunderstood you. I appreciate how you see it. I just shared my own opinion.
There's no cause for argument.

It is not intention to argue but to merely reason with you according to the Scriptures and or by way of using a real world example. But I do value your kind words back. It is much appreciated.

May God's love shine upon you even amongst our disagreement. But please know that any time you want to talk about such said topic, I will always be here for you (God willing) to talk with love about what I believe to be good, true, and right according to God's Word.

Peace be unto you.
And please be well.

Sincerely,

~ Jason.

...

 

[Blank Stair]

Thank you and peace be unto you and yours.

 

[LynnC]

How is "Once Saved Always Saved" not a license to sin?

Greetings Jason,

To give a very simple answer to the question above...

'because no one who appreciates the sacrifice that was made for us (through the life and blood of Yshwe, known as Jesus) would trample underfoot the blood of that sacrifice.'

Peace and blessings to you.

 

[Albion]

It is not intention to argue but to merely reason with you according to the Scriptures and or by way of using a real world example. But I do value your kind words back. It is much appreciated.

~ Jason.

...

The problem is that the starting premise is incorrect. To say that God elects someone and changes him cannot logically (or in any other way) lead to the conclusion that, therefore, he won't be changed.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Let's understand something here. I do not believe God's Elect are unfaithful. These are the ones who have eternal security BECAUSE they heard His Word by enduring in God's Word to the end of their life. However, that does not mean all born again believers are God's Elect, though. For starters: we know that names can be blotted out of the book of life and that the believing widows in 1 Timothy 5 turned aside after Satan and cast off their first faith.

 

[Albion]

Let's understand something here. I do not believe God's Elect are unfaithful. These are the ones who have eternal security BECAUSE they heard His Word by enduring in God's Word to the end of their life. However, that does not mean all born again believers are God's Elect, though. For starters: we know that names can be blotted out of the book of life and that the believing widows in 1 Timothy 5 turned aside after Satan and cast off their first faith.

You say you believe that the Elect are saved and you do NOT believe that they are unfaithful, and that they endure...

...but then you present an analogy of a person who is freed from worrying about his weight by a medical breakthrough and so begins to eat junk food. What kind of analogy is that? The comparison would say that the Elect start living like heathens once they know that they are saved!?

For one thing, it is not an article of faith that the Elect DO know that they are among the Elect, and, second, if they did begin sinning at will, that would mean that they did NOT live faithfully to the end or live like one who had been chosen by God. Both of those propositions you've already ruled out only to speculate on them happening anyway.

 

[JaapAap]

Depends on the person. Some use it as a license to sin, but I know people who believe OSAS and live holy. For them it's just normal that you're not gonna sin when you're saved.
I believe we must make our call and election sure, but they just do that.

 

[Jacque_Pierre22]

It's pretty simple to me. Seeming contradictions are paradoxes.
The problem is that both sides are partly right here. There is an over-use of reason in both Calvinism and Arminianism. And what is the obvious reality? Certain scriptures in the NT seemingly contradict each other. On the one hand, your name can be "blotted out" of the book of life, and on the other hand, the elect are saved no matter what. It seems to miss the point that both are true; however if you create 5 point systems out of them (whether Arminian or Calvinist) you inevitably have to reinterpret the Greek or Hebrew languages to fit a preconceived notion; and then you are no longer Sola Scriptura but Roman Catholicism--- making inferences into the text--- this is what led to new doctrines in the church. For example, in Eastern Orthodoxy, because of their view that man has total free will, could not reconcile that with total depravity, so they denied the doctrine of original sin that Roman Catholicism still holds. Rome holds to the idea of original sin which is inconsistent with their belief in free will. So I would ask, if you hold to free will, how can you affirm original sin? Why not convert to Orthodoxy for consistency? here is a blog post about this
https://blogs.ancientfaith.com/orth...riginal-and-ancestral-sin-a-brief-comparison/

 

[Jacque_Pierre22]

Just curious how you understand these verses,

Romans 3:24
"Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:"

"justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God."(1 Corinthians 6:11)

Titus 3:7
That being justified by his grace..."

By grace are ye saved

"
James 2:21
Was not Abraham our father justified by works,"

This would be Gods works in him. Galatians 3 Abraham had Christ in him.

Yea Abraham was justified by faith first; and then later by works. Justification by works is before men, other people.

Romans 5:9
Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him."

Romans 4:25
Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification."

 

[Albion]

I like that you recognize that there are verses which support each POV. It's gotten pretty stale reading from one poster or another "there's nothing in Scripture that says _____." On the other hand, I can't agree with what you go on to say after that because the logic of 4 or 5 point Calvinism is almost impeccable, whereas Free Will-ism is full of holes. IT must rely upon throwing a verse at the reader and never, ever, venturing into logic.

If I say that I don't know which side is the more correct BASED UPON SCRIPTURE, I still can say that the Predestinarians have the stronger case based upon the logic of their argument, backed up, of course, with Scripture.

 

[twob4me]

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[Bible Highlighter]

You say you believe that the Elect are saved and you do NOT believe that they are unfaithful, and that they endure...

...but then you present an analogy of a person who is freed from worrying about his weight by a medical breakthrough and so begins to eat junk food. What kind of analogy is that? The comparison would say that the Elect start living like heathens once they know that they are saved!?

For one thing, it is not an article of faith that the Elect DO know that they are among the Elect, and, second, if they did begin sinning at will, that would mean that they did NOT live faithfully to the end or live like one who had been chosen by God. Both of those propositions you've already ruled out only to speculate on them happening anyway.

I believe there are two groups of born again believers.

#1. The Elect (i.e. those who endure in their faith to the End).
#2. Those who receive the Word (are born again and saved) for a short time but they fall away from the faith (In some cases this falling away is due to persecution and or sometimes it is due because of the cares (riches) of this life - See the Parable of the Sower).

That is why John says in 1 John 2:19 that "They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us". The "us" is speaking about the Elect. The Elect can have an assurance that they are of the Elect because the Word confirms that they are Elect by passing certain criteria (or tests) within God's Word. We are told to make sure our calling and election are sure if we are told to do certain things (Which will then assure we will never fall). But we have to do those things within the Word, though.

Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall (2 Peter 1:10).


....

 

[Bible Highlighter]

In addition, 1 John 3:6-10 is spoken in the present tense. But what about 1 John 3:6 that says, "he that sins has never known him?" Well, this Scripture is also keeping in mind that if a believer falls back into a sinful lifestyle again, God will then remember no more their past righteousness. This is based on Ezekiel 18:24 that says,

"But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die"
​

In other words, if God forgets a person's past righteousness, then it is as if He never knew them. For God identifies with the righteous; And God cannot willingly or directly condone sin and or abide with a person who is rebelling against Him (Which is unrighteousness). God will no longer remember a person if they fall back into sin. The reverse is also true. For the reverse of what God does when a person asks God to forgive them of their sins is forever cleansing them of their past transgression and remembering those sins no more. For if we confesses our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness (1 John 1:9). If we walk in the light as He is in the light, then the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin (1 John 1:7). For he that confesses and forsakes sin shall have mercy (Proverbs 28:13).


...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

For God identifies with the righteous; ...

Now we know that God heareth not sinners: but if any man be a worshipper of God, and doeth his will, him he heareth (John 9:31).

The LORD is far from the wicked, but he hears the prayer of the righteous. (Proverbs 15:29).

He fulfills the desires of those who fear him; he hears their cry and saves them. (Psalm 145:19).

The eyes of the LORD are on the righteous, and his ears are attentive to their cry. (Psalm 34:15).


...

 

[Winken]

@Jason0047 .... No one saved by Grace through Faith can depart from it. The scriptures that you quote in favor of departure are taken out of context. It is not helpful for the seeker of Jesus Christ to read them, nor is it helpful for those who have been born again. The born-again experience is once-in-a-lifetime. HE sustains it, not me.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

@Jason0047 .... No one saved by Grace through Faith can depart from it. The scriptures that you quote in favor of departure are taken out of context. It is not helpful for the seeker of Jesus Christ to read them, nor is it helpful for those who have been born again. The born-again experience is once-in-a-lifetime. HE sustains it, not me.

First, if the verses are taken out of context, then please explain how. However, please keep in mind that in 1 John 2:19, when John alludes to the 70 disciples (Who eventually stopped following Jesus in John 6:66), we have to remember that Jesus said to the 70 that they were to rejoice because their names were written in Heaven (See Luke 10:17-20). This means that the 70 were saved at one point in time (during their discipleship), but afterwards, when their faith was challenged, they became unsaved because they chose to not have anything more to do with Jesus (Because His new words were troubling to them). So the "us" in 1 John 2:19 is speaking of the "Elect" or those who had "root in God's Word" (i.e. See the Parable of the Sower).

Second, if there is one thing the Bible is clear about, it is that a believer has to endure in their faith to the end so as to be saved. Mark 13:13 says: - And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end, the same shall be saved (Also see Matthew 10:22, Matthew 24:13, Colossians 1:22-23, 1 Timothy 4:16, Hebrews 10:35-39, Revelation 2:10).

Furthermore, this faith is more than a mere belief or mental acknowledgement alone. Faith is described as both an action and a belief in Hebrews 11. James 2:17 says faith without works is a dead kind of faith.

Plus, Jesus also does not have faith for a person, either. In Hebrews 5:9, it says, Jesus is the author of eternal salvation to all who OBEY Him. If such were not the case (and Jesus had faith and obeyed for a believer), then everyone would be saved (And there would be no Judgment for the wicked and the children of the Kingdom would not be cast into outer darkness). Also, if believers did not have to obey or have faith, then the believer could not depart from the living God because of an evil heart of unbelief as mentioned in Hebrews 3, too.

In addition, John 3:19-20 says in "The Condemnation" that those who loved darkness hate the Light because they loved the pleasure of their own evil deeds, unless of course their deeds should be reproved (that is).

Also, Romans 11:20-22 says - If the Gentile believer does not continue to have faith (i.e. unbelief), they will be cut off just like the OT Jews.


...

 

[Albion]

I believe there are two groups of born again believers.

#1. The Elect (i.e. those who endure in their faith to the End).
#2. Those who receive the Word (are born again and saved) for a short time but they fall away from the faith (In some cases this falling away is due to persecution and or sometimes it is due because of the cares (riches) of this life - See the Parable of the Sower).

That is why John says in 1 John 2:19 that "They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us". The "us" is speaking about the Elect. The Elect can have an assurance that they are of the Elect because the Word confirms that they are Elect by passing certain criteria (or tests) within God's Word. We are told to make sure our calling and election are sure if we are told to do certain things (Which will then assure we will never fall). But we have to do those things within the Word, though.

Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall (2 Peter 1:10).


....

OK, I'd say that there are 1) the Elect and then there are those that are 2) not among the Elect. Many people may seem to be among the Elect but they later show by their beliefs and behavior that they were not.