How is Once Saved Always Saved not a license to sin? (moved)

[Job8]

If all Scripture is profitable for me to be PERFECT unto EVERY good work, then what do I need of these outside sacraments or church traditions for?

In the context of 2 Tim 3:16,17 "perfect" means complete. It does not mean absolute perfection. We are absolutely perfect (righteous) because God imputes His own righteousness to us through Christ. So when Christ says we are to be as perfect as our Heavenly Father, it means that He will make us perfect by His grace. That is definitely not a license to sin, but an incentive to be holy.

That also answers both your questions: (1) you do not need sacraments and church traditions to ADD to Christ's perfection and (2) you cannot lose your salvation because imputed righteousness is a GIFT from God, and sinning saints will be dealt with in a number of ways according to Scripture, without losing their salvation.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

In the context of 2 Tim 3:16,17 "perfect" means complete. It does not mean absolute perfection. We are absolutely perfect (righteous) because God imputes His own righteousness to us through Christ. So when Christ says we are to be as perfect as our Heavenly Father, it means that He will make us perfect by His grace. That is definitely not a license to sin, but an incentive to be holy.

That also answers both your questions: (1) you do not need sacraments and church traditions to ADD to Christ's perfection and (2) you cannot lose your salvation because imputed righteousness is a GIFT from God, and sinning saints will be dealt with in a number of ways according to Scripture, without losing their salvation.

For one, "sacraments" are rooted in Catholicism. Catholicism is unbiblical for many reasons: Two big ones is that they pray to other god like entities like Mary and the saints and they bow down to statues or idols.

Second, life teaches us that free gifts come with responsibilities or otherwise those free gifts can be taken away, destroyed, or lost. For example: Bob can give Rick a car as a free gift, but if Rick ran red lights and drank while he was driving all the time, I guarantee you, he would not have his free gift for very long.

Third, here is a list of verses that makes it absolutely clear that believers can fall away from the faith.

1 Samuel 16:14
1 Samuel 31:4
Ezekiel 18:24
Hebrews 3:12-14
Hebrews 4:11
Hebrews 6:4-9
Hebrews 10:26-30
Hebrews 12:15
1 Timothy 1:18-20
1 Timothy 4:1-7
Galatians 3:1-5
2 Peter 2:20-22
2 Peter 3:17
Matthew 13:18-23
1 Corinthians 10:12
2 Thessalonians 2:3

Now, do not misunderstand me, believers cannot lose their salvation, but they can forfeit their salvation (i.e. they can willingly throw it away by rebelling against God). In fact,

Here is a list of believers who have forfeited their salvation:

• Saul (1 Samuel 16:14) (1 Samuel 31:4)

• Demas (2 Timothy 4:10)

• The Prodigal Son (Luke 15:11-32)

• Judas Iscariot (Psalm 41:9) (Luke 6:16) (Acts 1:25)

• Hymenaeus and Philetus (2 Timothy 2:17, 18)

• Unnamed Christians destroyed by false teaching (2 Timothy 2:17, 18)

• Many Unnamed Disciples (John 6:66)

• Some Younger Christian Widows (1 Timothy 5:14, 15)

• Some Christians Eager For Money (1 Timothy 6:8, 9, 10)

• Ananias and Sapphira (Acts 5:1-11)

• Balaam (Numbers chapters 22, 23, 24) (Numbers 31:8) (Joshua 13:22) (Jude 1:11)

And here is a list of potential fallen believers:

• The Servant Who is Not Looking For Him (Luke 12:45, 46)

• Recent Convert Who is a Potential Spiritual Leader (1 Timothy 3:6)

• The Unforgiving in Heart (Matthew 6:14, 15)

• Luke Warm Unrepentant Believer (Revelation 3:14-22)

• Fruitless Christians (John 15:1-10) (Matthew 25:14-30)

• Widows That Live in Pleasure (1 Timothy 5:5, 6)

• Believers Whose Seed Fell Upon the Rocks (Luke 8:13)

• Believers Whose Seed Was Choked by Thorns (Matthew 13:22)

• Gentile Believer Who Did Not Have on a Wedding Garment (Matthew 22:1-14) (Revelation 19:7, 8)

• The Potential Fellow Believer Who Erred From the Truth & Was Converted Back
  (James 5:19, 20)

For Jesus is the Light and we are to shine the Light of Christ within our lives. For there are those who think they can serve Jesus and also live for oneself, sin, and evil; But this is wrong, though. "For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God" (John 3:20-21).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

As for 2 Timothy 3:16-17: Well, it says perfect unto EVERY good work. You are made perfect unto the type of work you are doing for the LORD (by you allowing Him to do the "good work" in you). So this is talking about the Sanctification process and it is not talking about Justification (or initial salvation when one accepts the LORD).

 

[Steeno7]

"We delude ourselves into thinking that our own salvation can be achieved by keeping books on others…’I know I’m no prize, but at least I’m better than that lecher, Harry’ – as if putting ourselves at the head of a whole column marching in the wrong direction somehow made us less lost than the rest of the troops. It would be funny if it were not fatal; but fatal it is, because grace works only in those who accept their lostness. Jesus came to call sinners, not the pseudo-righteous; he came to raise the dead, not to buy drinks for the marginally alive.”

- Robert Farrar Capon

 

[Bible Highlighter]

We aren't talking about examples of men taking back gifts from other men in this fallen world.

Life is fickle. The Word of God will last forever. Stick with the scriptures.

We are talking about what the Word of God says about gifts given from God to men in this fallen world.

You know full well where it tells us that salvation is a gift and you know full well where it tells us that the gifts of God are irrevocable. To pretend that you don't is disingenuous to say the very least.

I won't play games with you. Look it up yourself.

My tendency is to say things a little more bluntly and crudely than that. But I'm resisting the temptation to tell it like it is concerning your method of discussing doctrine with fellow believers.

God may well favor one sinful man over another in this world and it appears from scripture that He does. Any favor He gives one fallen man over another considering that they are, in their natural state, enemies of God is purely by grace - and He's full of grace.

As you well know - that passage about "respect" has to do with the fact that both Jews and gentiles are to both be presented the gospel by the Lord. One who writes as many articles as you do would know that. Don't play games with the scriptures. It's beneath your obvious talents.

The Word of God says nothing about Adam and Eve receiving any gifts from God. It most certainly says nothing about whether they were in the exact same state as believers are today after us having become new creatures in Christ. Don't assume and don't go beyond what is written.

Jesus used real world examples to illustrate spiritual truth. For even a Canaanite woman had used a parable or real world example with Jesus. In other words, if one's doctrine is true, it should line up with some kind of real world example. Also, again, the Scriptures say God is not a respecter of persons. Meaning, he is not going to show favoritism. If Adam and Eve fell because of their sin, then man today will also fall because of their sin, too. The only way out is thru repentance and acceptance of the Messiah (Jesus Christ) and in allowing Him to do the good work within us.

A believer cannot do both good and evil and expect to be in God's good graces. Jesus said that a person cannot serve two masters, for they will hate the one and love the other.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

"We delude ourselves into thinking that our own salvation can be achieved by keeping books on others…’I know I’m no prize, but at least I’m better than that lecher, Harry’ – as if putting ourselves at the head of a whole column marching in the wrong direction somehow made us less lost than the rest of the troops. It would be funny if it were not fatal; but fatal it is, because grace works only in those who accept their lostness. Jesus came to call sinners, not the pseudo-righteous; he came to raise the dead, not to buy drinks for the marginally alive.”

- Robert Farrar Capon

Jesus said, repent for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand. For the Law was not made for the righteous, but for the lawless and disobedient. For if a righteous man scarcely be saved, then how shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

In fact, Jesus defined repentance for us. He said the Ninevites will rise up in Judgment against this generation because they repented at the preaching of Jonah. If one were to turn to Jonah chapter 3, they would see at the end of that chapter that the Ninevites had turned from their wicked ways as a part of their repentance.

 

[LoveofTruth]

Yea well if you want to exclude every Christian pre- 1500s reformation as a believer as well as baptism for 2000 years; I would encourage you to research the other side of the story. Justification does not change you, it is a legal declaration; change takes place in sanctification. If you believe that then you will kick all your bad habits and sins right away; thats Roman Catholicism where there is only theosis; no distinction between justification and sanctification. The sacraments have been around for over 2000 years and many RC were saved like St. Augustine in the past.

water baptism does not save.

and if a believer comes to God through faith, Christ dwells n their heart and they are now in a new and living way, not in the old law of carnal commandments

no outward washing can clean the conscience. The conscience is clean by the blood of Christ Hebrews 9. So the saving baptism is into Christ by one Spirit 1 Cor 12:13 Galatians 3, and 1 peter 3;21. It is not an outward washing with water but the answer of a good conscience, by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

 

[LoveofTruth]

.

Hello, lots of interesting points. Just a quick question do you believe that The Son of God existed before he came to the Earth as the Son of God?

I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God eternally existant as the Son and the Father and the Spirit sent the Son.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Hello, lots of interesting points. Just a quick question do you believe that The Son of God existed before he came to the Earth as the Son of God?

I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God eternally existant as the Son and the Father and the Spirit sent the Son.

Yes, I believe the Son of God existed eternally as the Son of God as spirit or as the second person of the Godhead or the Trinity. For I said this in my Statement of Faith about Jesus Christ.

"2. Jesus Christ

(a) Christ is God Almighty (Second person of the Godhead (the Living Word)).
(b) Christ is Eternal and uncreated."​

This means Jesus was always God eternally as spirit and that He never had a beginning.

Side Note:

Yes, and I also believe God the Father sent the Son, too. I believe the LORD our God is one God who exists as three distinct persons.

 

[LoveofTruth]

Yes, I believe the Son of God existed eternally as the Son of God as spirit or as the second person of the Godhead or the Trinity. For I said this in my Statement of Faith about Jesus Christ.

"2. Jesus Christ

(a) Christ is God Almighty (Second person of the Godhead (the Living Word)).
(b) Christ is Eternal and uncreated."​

This means Jesus was always God eternally as spirit and that He never had a beginning.

Side Note:

Yes, and I also believe God the Father sent the Son, too. I believe the LORD our God is one God who exists as three distinct persons.

Ok great, I just noticed you didnt say he was the Son of God eternally, you used the word "Word of God. While that is true the Word is the Son. Just was curious. I have been trying to help some heretics who say that Jesus was not the Son of God in the past and that he was only the Son in the flesh when he came to the earth, They actually say the father came in the flesh and the father died for our sins. etc.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Ok great, I just noticed you didnt say he was the Son of God eternally, you used the word "Word of God. While that is true the Word is the Son. Just was curious. I have been trying to help some heretics who say that Jesus was not the Son of God in the past and that he was only the Son in the flesh when he came to the earth, They actually say the father came in the flesh and the father died for our sins. etc.

The Trinity is saying that the Lord our God is one God who exists as three distinct persons.

However, Modalism is Unbiblical (Which denies the truth of the Trinity).

For Modalism teaches that God just puts on a mask or takes on a title or name. It teaches that there is no difference between the Father, or the Son, or the Holy Spirit. Which is is not what the Bible teaches.

Why is it unbiblical?

Well, the Bible clearly teaches that there are distinctions within the persons of the Godhead. Here are a couple of quick points why the Scriptures are against the idea of Modalism.

#1. The word Elohim (אֱלֹהִ֔ים) is both a singular and a plural noun.
#2. God refers to Himself in plural form
(Genesis 1:26) (Genesis 3:22) (Genesis 11:7) (Isaiah 6:8).
#3. Plurality of God in New Testament
(Matthew 28:19) (2 Corinthians 13:14) (John 14:16-20).
#4. Introductions to both the Son & Holy Spirit (Daniel 7:9,10,13,14) (John 14:16)
#5. Different persons of Godhead appear at one time (Luke 3:21-22)
#6. Distinctions of Wills (Luke 22:42).
#7. Conversations Between the Godhead (Psalm 2:1-12) (Psalm 45:6-7) (Psalm 110:1) (Matthew 11:27) (John 17:24).​

Also, I imagine those who believe in Modalism like to quote 1 John 5:7 as proof text for their case, too.

However, they also have to look at what else John has written on this topic, too. For in the beginning of the gospel of John, it says this...

John 1:1-2 KJV - "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was WITH God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God."

 

[LoveofTruth]

God is one God who exists as three distinct persons.

However, Modalism is Unbiblical (Which denies this truth).

For Modalism teaches that God just puts on a mask or takes on a title or name. It teaches that there is no difference between the Father, or the Son, or the Holy Spirit. Which is is not what the Bible teaches.

Why is it unbiblical?

Well, the Bible clearly teaches that there are distinctions within the persons of the Godhead. Here are a couple of quick points why the Scriptures are against the idea of Modalism.

#1. The word Elohim (אֱלֹהִ֔ים) is both a singular and a plural noun.
#2. God refers to Himself in plural form (Genesis 1:26) (Genesis 3:22) (Genesis 11:7) (Isaiah 6:8).
#3. Plurality of God in New Testament (Matthew 28:19) (2 Corinthians 13:14) (John 14:16-20).
#4. Introductions to both the Son & Holy Spirit (Daniel 7:9,10,13,14) (John 14:16)
#5. Different persons of Godhead appear at one time (Luke 3:21-22)
#6. Distinctions of Wills (Luke 22:42).
#7. Conversations Between the Godhead (Psalm 2:1-12) (Psalm 45:6-7) (Psalm 110:1) (Matthew 11:27) (John 17:24).​

Also, I imagine those who believe in Modalism like to quote 1 John 5:7 as proof text for their case, too.

However, they also have to look at what else John has written on this topic, too. For in the beginning of the gospel of John, it says this...

John 1:1-2 KJV - "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was WITH God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God."

Yes good points I have used most of them with these men.

I like Colossians 1:13 and on that show the Son of God who created all things and who is before all things. I define and stress the Son of God existing eternally with them and all, because this is not always seen with some.

Here are two good sections of the many that could be quoted for the eternal Son of God.

"13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:15 Who is the image of the invisible God [the Son], the firstborn of every creature:16 For by him [by the Son] were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him [The Son], and for him [The Son]:17 And he [The Son] is before all things, and by him [The Son] all things consist."(Colossians 1:13-17 )

and

"3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:"(Romans 1:3,4)

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Yes good points I have used most of them with these men.

I like Colossians 1:13 and on that show the Son of God who created all things and who is before all things. I define and stress the Son of God existing eternally with them and all, because this is not always seen with some.

Here are two good sections of the many that could be quoted for the eternal Son of God.

"13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:15 Who is the image of the invisible God [the Son], the firstborn of every creature:16 For by him [by the Son] were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him [The Son], and for him [The Son]:17 And he [The Son] is before all things, and by him [The Son] all things consist."(Colossians 1:13-17 )

and

"3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:"(Romans 1:3,4)

If your really interested, the best article I read on this topic was here:

https://whitedragonawa.wordpress.com/2012/02/16/why-modalism-is-a-damnable-heresy/

Personally, the part of the article I like best is about the 15th paragraph down approximately. Do a key word search on the page using these words:

"Without the Person of Jesus the Atonement is denied"

It's a couple of paragraphs down in the article, but it is very well worth reading.

 

[Winken]

In the context of 2 Tim 3:16,17 "perfect" means complete. It does not mean absolute perfection. We are absolutely perfect (righteous) because God imputes His own righteousness to us through Christ. So when Christ says we are to be as perfect as our Heavenly Father, it means that He will make us perfect by His grace. That is definitely not a license to sin, but an incentive to be holy.

That also answers both your questions: (1) you do not need sacraments and church traditions to ADD to Christ's perfection and (2) you cannot lose your salvation because imputed righteousness is a GIFT from God, and sinning saints will be dealt with in a number of ways according to Scripture, without losing their salvation.

Thank you, Job8.

 

[LoveofTruth]

If your really interested, the best article I read on this topic was here:

https://whitedragonawa.wordpress.com/2012/02/16/why-modalism-is-a-damnable-heresy/

Personally, the part of the article I like best is about the 15th paragraph down approximately. Do a key word search on the page using these words:

"Without the Person of Jesus the Atonement is denied"

It's a couple of paragraphs down in the article, but it is very well worth reading.

Thanks good stuff

And I know when talking with the Oneness heretics they bring up all sorts of weird arguments .

 

[Winken]

For Jesus is the Light and we are to shine the Light of Christ within our lives. For there are those who think they can serve Jesus and also live for oneself, sin, and evil; But this is wrong, though. "For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God" (John 3:20-21).

Jason, you write sooooooooooo well. Write a book. Offer it for sale. Just leave out those portions where you deny the efficacy of the Cross for those who believe (OSAS), obviously leaving out those parts where you apply Jewish imperatives to Christians (example, Matthew 6:15).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Thanks good stuff

And I know when talking with the Oneness heretics they bring up all sorts of weird arguments .

It is my pleasure to help. So you are most welcome, my brother.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Jason, you write sooooooooooo well. Write a book. Offer it for sale. Just leave out those portions where you deny the efficacy of the Cross for those who believe (OSAS), obviously leaving out those parts where you apply Jewish imperatives to Christians (example, Matthew 6:15).

Ah, so you believe you believe Matthew 6:15 does not apply to the believer today? Well, if that is the case, then what do you make of Paul's words in 1 Timothy 6:3-4? For Paul essentially says in that passage that if any speaks contrary to the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine of Godliness is proud and they know nothing. In other words, how are you not speaking contrary to the words of Jesus Christ in Matthew 6:15?

 

[Blank Stair]

How would God not know it was if it were a license to sin? And therein not persevere with his promise in those who love him and are reborn in the spirit?

Love this signature!

 

[LoveofTruth]

Yea well if you want to exclude every Christian pre- 1500s reformation as a believer as well as baptism for 2000 years; I would encourage you to research the other side of the story. Justification does not change you, it is a legal declaration; change takes place in sanctification. If you believe that then you will kick all your bad habits and sins right away; thats Roman Catholicism where there is only theosis; no distinction between justification and sanctification. The sacraments have been around for over 2000 years and many RC were saved like St. Augustine in the past.

Just curious how you understand these verses,

Romans 3:24
"Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:"

"justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God."(1 Corinthians 6:11)

Titus 3:7
That being justified by his grace..."

By grace are ye saved

"
James 2:21
Was not Abraham our father justified by works,"

This would be Gods works in him. Galatians 3 Abraham had Christ in him.

Romans 5:9
Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him."

Romans 4:25
Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification."