How is Once Saved Always Saved not a license to sin? (moved)

[Bible Highlighter]

How is "Once Saved Always Saved" not a license to sin?

I have argued the topic of "Once Saved Always Saved" or "Eternal Security" for many years. In my many discussions on this topic on various forums, I have noticed that there are many warnings in the Bible that go ignored; In addition, the the moral issue is also ignored (in my opinion), as well. Please tell me how "Once Saved Always Saved" is not a license to sin. Can a person abide in unrepentant sins like lying, lusting, and hating and still be saved if they do those sins the rest of their life and die? Or do all true believers become holy and righteous in time? So does a believer do both good and bad as a part of their every day life? Or are they changed and different (showing that they have put on the new man)? Are believers supposed to be a holy and separate people that are different from the world or not?

 

[RC1970]

The idea behind OSAS is that the Holy Spirit comes into your life and changes the desire of your heart. So, IF your heart is changed, then your life will reflect that change.

 

[Lazy_Proverb]

1 John 3:9, "No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God."

 

[FreeinChrist]

MOD HAT

This thread is being moved to Salvation (Soteriology) a Christian only forum from Ethics and Morality

 

[Steeno7]

How is "Once Saved Always Saved" not a license to sin?

I have argued the topic of "Once Saved Always Saved" or "Eternal Security" for many years. In my many discussions on this topic on various forums, I have noticed that there are many warnings in the Bible that go ignored; In addition, the the moral issue is also ignored (in my opinion), as well. Please tell me how "Once Saved Always Saved" is not a license to sin. Can a person abide in unrepentant sins like lying, lusting, and hating and still be saved if they do those sins the rest of their life and die? Or do all true believers become holy and righteous in time? So does a believer do both good and bad as a part of their every day life? Or are they changed and different (showing that they have put on the new man)? Are believers supposed to be a holy and separate people that are different from the world or not?

Since when has man needed a license to sin??

 

[nobdysfool]

Those who use it as a license to sin probably aren't truly saved. Like it or not, not everyone that says to Him "Lord, Lord", will enter Heaven.

 

[Lazy_Proverb]

1 John 3:6-7 “Whoever abides in Him does not sin, Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.”

 

[Jacque_Pierre22]

Yes it is. Whether you are an arminian Baptist or a Calvinist who preaches assurance based on persevearance of the saints; you become bent on good works to prove to yourself that you are indeed saved. The problem here is that no one completely throws off the "old man" when we are justified. It's like 2 people on a horse: one is your old nature and one is your new nature and you are constantly grabbing the reigns while your old nature tries to throw you off the horse. This is why the sacraments are necessary; it makes us focus on the gospel and helping our neighbor which leads us to improve because we are NOT focused on ourselves so we naturally get rid of our sins. Kinda like eating salad over time will improve your health. A Lutheran perspective

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Well, sacraments originate from Catholicism (of which is another un-Biblical issue in my opinion), but it is refreshing to see replies here that are not in support of the version of OSAS that allows for one to think they can "sin and still be saved."

Anyways, one is indeed changed spiritually by the Lord if they repented of their sins and accepted Him (and then they continue to walk in His good ways). For salvation is not of external works by man alone and salvation is not Antinomianism (or an ignoring of God's Moral Law). Ezekiel 36:26-27 clears up the confusion. God gives a person a new heart and a new spirit and then He places His Spirit within them so as to keep His laws and statutes. Meaning, it is the LORD who works within us. He is the One who does the "good work." For Jesus said we can do nothing without Him.

 

[Jacque_Pierre22]

Yea well if you want to exclude every Christian pre- 1500s reformation as a believer as well as baptism for 2000 years; I would encourage you to research the other side of the story. Justification does not change you, it is a legal declaration; change takes place in sanctification. If you believe that then you will kick all your bad habits and sins right away; thats Roman Catholicism where there is only theosis; no distinction between justification and sanctification. The sacraments have been around for over 2000 years and many RC were saved like St. Augustine in the past.

 

[Lazy_Proverb]

I think it is becoming abundantly clear in this and the 5 points thread that there are a vast number of persons who think people believe in a denominational doctrine. And not the words of Jesus.

 

[Lazy_Proverb]

How is "Once Saved Always Saved" not a license to sin?

I have argued the topic of "Once Saved Always Saved" or "Eternal Security" for many years. In my many discussions on this topic on various forums, I have noticed that there are many warnings in the Bible that go ignored; In addition, the the moral issue is also ignored (in my opinion), as well. Please tell me how "Once Saved Always Saved" is not a license to sin. Can a person abide in unrepentant sins like lying, lusting, and hating and still be saved if they do those sins the rest of their life and die? Or do all true believers become holy and righteous in time? So does a believer do both good and bad as a part of their every day life? Or are they changed and different (showing that they have put on the new man)? Are believers supposed to be a holy and separate people that are different from the world or not?

For Calvinists what you are referring to is the P designation in the acronym, T.U.L.I.P. (Perseverance of the Saints)
Total Depravity (also known as Total Inability and Original Sin)
Unconditional Election
Limited Atonement (also known as Particular Atonement)
Irresistible Grace
Perseverance of the Saints (also known as Once Saved Always Saved)
Perseverance of the Saints:
You cannot lose your salvation. Because the Father has elected, the Son has redeemed, and the Holy Spirit has applied salvation, those thus saved are eternally secure. They are eternally secure in Christ. Some of the verses for this position are John 10:27-28 where Jesus said His sheep will never perish; John 6:47 where salvation is described as everlasting life; Romans 8:1 where it is said we have passed out of judgment; 1 Corinthians 10:13 where God promises to never let us be tempted beyond what we can handle; and Phil. 1:6 where God is the one being faithful to perfect us until the day of Jesus’ return.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Yea well if you want to exclude every Christian pre- 1500s reformation as a believer as well as baptism for 2000 years; I would encourage you to research the other side of the story. Justification does not change you, it is a legal declaration; change takes place in sanctification. If you believe that then you will kick all your bad habits and sins right away; thats Roman Catholicism where there is only theosis; no distinction between justification and sanctification. The sacraments have been around for over 2000 years and many RC were saved like St. Augustine in the past.

Well, baptism is not a sacrament. Baptism is a command given to us by our Lord Jesus Christ (as it is written in God's Word). However, Peter says baptism does not save us for the putting away of the filth of the flesh, though (1 Peter 3:21). This filthiness of the flesh is clearly in reference to sin (As shown elsewhere in the New Testament - 2 Corinthians 7:1). So baptism is not in reference to a Command with spiritual death consequences (if a believer does not obey it). Paul lists many times those sins that will cause a believer to not inherit the Kingdom of God (Galatians 5:19-21) (Ephesians 5:3-7) (Colossians 3:5-10) (1 Corinthians 6:9-11). This is further repeated by John in Revelation 21:8. In addition, Jesus also lists certain commands that have spiritual death in mind for a person if they were to break them (Like looking upon another in lust (Matthew 18:9), not forgiving others (Matthew 6:15), and leading a child to stumble into sin (Matthew 18:6 NLT)).

As for the sacraments: You will not find them practiced or commanded anywhere in the New Testament. This is important to understand because we are not to add to the Word of God. The traditions that a believer is taught is the Word of God that was written down as Holy Scripture and it was not an oral tradition. See, I can test the Word of God and know it is trust worthy and true. The Bible is clearly a divinely inspired book if one were to honestly be objective in studying such a thing. But can I test the sacraments in the same way? No. They are not like God's Word in any way. They are not divine and they cannot be tested like the Word of God.

 

[Lazy_Proverb]

Well, baptism is not a sacrament. Baptism is a command given to us by our Lord Jesus Christ (as it is written in God's Word).

Baptism is an ordinance. A rite ordained by our Lord Christ. An outward sign of an inward renewal, regeneration rebirth, of the new Christian.
As we are born from water we are reborn in water.

 

[com7fy8]

How is "Once Saved Always Saved" not a license to sin?

"Saved" means safe, and sinning is not safe.

Can a person abide in unrepentant sins like lying, lusting, and hating and still be saved if they do those sins the rest of their life and die?

The Bible says >

"And those who are Christ's have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires." (Galatians 5:24)

Also, in Hebrews 12:6-11, it says "you illegitimate and not sons" if God is not correcting you; and the writer says what happens because of our Father succeeding in correcting us.

From Galatians 5:24 and Hebrews 12:6-11, then, I would say, no, you can not keep on sinning and spend eternity with Jesus.

Now, you have listed things "like lying, lusting, and hating".

Philippians 2:14-16 says,

"Do all things without complaining and disputing, that you may become blameless and harmless, children of God without fault in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom you shine as lights in the world, holding fast the word of life, so that I may rejoice in the day of Christ that I have not run in vain or labored in vain." (Philippians 2:14-16)

So, in writing to Christians, Paul says we need to stop our "complaining and disputing", so that we can "become blameless and harmless, children of God without fault in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation". There is no procrastination, here, to some next life, but we are told to do this, now . . . in this life > right "in the midst of" this evil world's "crooked and perverse generation". God commands this; so I would say God considers this to be a realistic expectation . . . since God in us is easily and breezily and beautifully able to change us to "become blameless and harmless" and "without fault". God's love has His own almighty power to cure our nature to become "as He is" "in this world" (please see 1 John 4:17).

He saves us so we are safe and at home with Him, in this love (Romans 5:5, Colossians 3:15). But, I personally understand, we always will need more correction and curing, while in this life.

Your list of "lying, lusting, and hating" has some of the more well-known sins; however, people can point at things like these, while not correcting their own sin problems which can be very destructive and deeply degrading.

"Complaining" is a sin which can work directly against relating intimately (1 Corinthians 6:17) and thankfully {Colossians 3:15, Ephesians 5:20) with God. God has executed people because of their complaining against how He provided for them > Numbers 21:4-6. And now we see how a number of people blaspheme God by complaining against and condemning His blessing of rain, and even in the public media ones call His blessing of rain "bad" weather. Certainly, God is not bad to provide us with rain which we so need for life on this planet.

And "disputing" > arguing > is destructive and degrading against how God would have us relating in His love >

"submitting to one another in the fear of God." (Ephesians 5:21)

"swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath" (in James 1:19)

"nor as being lords over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock." (1 Peter 5:3)

"with all lowliness and gentleness, with longsuffering, bearing with one another in love," (Ephesians 4:2)

"And be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God in Christ forgave you." (Ephesians 4:32)

So, it can be easy to point at someone else's "lying, and lusting, and hating" which are more obvious sins; but we need, ourselves, to get our Father's correction of things like complaining and arguing . . . so we can get free from the evil spirit of disobedience (Ephesians 2:2) which has us disobeying God by arguing and complaining. Because Satan's spirit can keep us degraded so we do not find out how to love like the above scriptures say to love. The evil spirit of arguing and complaining is directly anti-God and anti-love; so we need to stop these things and learn how to love, with Jesus >

"'Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.'" (Matthew 11:29)

 

[Bible Highlighter]

For Calvinists what you are referring to is the P designation in the acronym, T.U.L.I.P. (Perseverance of the Saints)
Total Depravity (also known as Total Inability and Original Sin)
Unconditional Election
Limited Atonement (also known as Particular Atonement)
Irresistible Grace
Perseverance of the Saints (also known as Once Saved Always Saved)
Perseverance of the Saints:
You cannot lose your salvation. Because the Father has elected, the Son has redeemed, and the Holy Spirit has applied salvation, those thus saved are eternally secure. They are eternally secure in Christ. Some of the verses for this position are John 10:27-28 where Jesus said His sheep will never perish; John 6:47 where salvation is described as everlasting life; Romans 8:1 where it is said we have passed out of judgment; 1 Corinthians 10:13 where God promises to never let us be tempted beyond what we can handle; and Phil. 1:6 where God is the one being faithful to perfect us until the day of Jesus’ return.

Yeah, the concept that true believers do not have "free will" (or that all born again believers will in time obey) is just unbiblical. This can be seen clearly many times in Scripture. A simple one is just understanding who Jesus was talking to in Matthew 6:15. For Jesus essentially says if you do not forgive, then the Father will not forgive you. Are these words said to the believer or the unbeliever? If these words by Jesus were said to unbelievers it would do them no good. For if an unbeliever forgave everyone on the planet, it would not help them whatsoever. The unbeliever would still die in their sins because they first would need to accept Jesus Christ as their personal Savior. So Matthew 6:15 is spoken to the believer. Meaning, Jesus believes that a BELIEVER can not be forgiven by the Father if they do not forgive.

 

[Lazy_Proverb]

I think what unbelievers fail to realize also is that there is a difference between free will and free agency.
We are indeed free agents, in that we can choose to operate in our lives within the parameters the Father , the all knowing source that predestined all that exists, has set as part of his plan. However, it all conforms to his divine will.

That's where Arminianism fails. The separation of the sinner from God is thought to be something that the fallen, when scriptures say God does not hear sinners prayers, can overcome by their own will. By their own exercise of free agency.
That they, who know not God, can bridge that gulf by their own choice and thereby overcome the will, plan, reality, God has set forth for all eternity.
Arminianism is egocentric and worldly. And that's where it fails to keep to the scriptures as written.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Baptism is an ordinance. A rite ordained by our Lord Christ. An outward sign of an inward renewal, regeneration rebirth, of the new Christian.
As we are born from water we are reborn in water.

While the word "ordinance" is in the Bible, the English word "rite" is not mentioned in the preserved Word of God within our world language today (i.e. the KJV). But yes, I agree that baptism is an outward sign of the inward renewal and regeneration of the true believer.

However, being born of water is not speaking of baptism, though; Being born of water in John 3:5 is in reference to being born again by the Word of God (See Ephesians 5:25-26 with a special focus on verse 26). For faith comes by hearing and hearing the Word of God (Romans 10:17). For the three individuals in the Parable of the Sower were able to receive the seed of the Word in their hearts and were also able to conquer the wicked one from stealing the Word (initially) out of their hearts. For the first person in the Parable of the Sower is clearly the unbeliever because they did not understand the Word because the wicked one took the seed of the Word out of their heart whereby they could not accept the Word of God with joy like the other three could (Matthew 13:19-20).

 

[Lazy_Proverb]

While the word "ordinance" is in the Bible, the English word "rite" is not mentioned in the preserved Word of God within our world language today (i.e. the KJV). But yes, I agree that baptism is an outward sign of the inward renewal and regeneration of the true believer.

However, being born of water is not speaking of baptism, though; Being born of water in John 3:5 is in reference to being born again by the Word of God (See Ephesians 5:25-26 with a special focus on verse 26). For faith comes by hearing and hearing the Word of God (Romans 10:17). For the three individuals in the Parable of the Sower were able to receive the seed of the Word in their hearts and were also able to conquer the wicked one from stealing the Word (initially) out of their hearts. For the first person in the Parable of the Sower is clearly the unbeliever because they did not understand the Word because the wicked one took the seed of the Word out of their heart whereby they could not accept the Word of God with joy like the other three could (Matthew 13:19-20).

Trinity isn't in the preserved word of God either. But Christians use it as a relevant term to describe the triune nature of God none the less.


The Catholic Response

Beyond the obvious fact that there is nothing in the context of John's gospel to even remotely point to "water" as referring to "the word," we can point out immediately a point of agreement. Both Catholics and Protestants agree that Jesus’ words—unless one is born anew (or, again)—speak of man’s initial entrance into the body of Christ through God’s grace. Perhaps it would be helpful at this point to ask what the New Testament writers saw as the instrument whereby one first enters into Christ. This would be precisely what we are talking about when we speak of being “born again.”

 

[Lazy_Proverb]

As for the sacraments: You will not find them practiced or commanded anywhere in the New Testament. This is important to understand because we are not to add to the Word of God.

You are not to take from the word of God.

This is for the Christians here so that they are not misled by errant proclamations promoted by those motivated to foster destruction of God's word and truth. Linked so as to forestall someone saying, "Cite?", were it to be written freestyle.

THE SEVEN SACRAMENTS

"For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men,
the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all"First Letter of Paul to Timothy 2:5