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The Church doesn't define a dogma of the assumption of Mary. That is a Roman thing.
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You mean Micheal Angelo's boy friend?
I do not know between the doctrines being presented here , which one is a more corrupt one.
To believe Christ was a Prophet, and a Godly good man , with no Devine nature.
Or to think some how Christ our Lord who sits at the right hand of God the Father,some how through the process of Transubstantiation once again sheds his precious blood for sin.
The Church doesn't define a dogma of the assumption of Mary. That is a Roman thing.
I wasnt talking about the JW obvious heresy in particular, but rather complicating the "judgy" attitude you introduced earlier in this thread.
We can speak on general basis, we can because we have scripture in hand as an allie, but on an individual plan we cant and shant.
I see what you try to do here, but this is nor the time or the place for me to be lured into apologetics as Im a guest at this forum.
- God Bless.
How tempting it is to make this an Orthodox-Catholic debate...
Unfortunately we`re on away ground the both of us at this place.
God Bless.
I do not lure anyone to debate,I simply try to understand what other posters are promoting.
It's clear one Catholic here is promoting Mariology, another is riding the fence.
I've no problem with answering these questions in that order: I'm not under the authority of the Roman Papacy. Of a certainty, the Theotokos makes intercession to Christ for us. The Evangelist Luke, writer of one of the synoptic Gospels, also wrote the original of the icon that I use for my avatar right there. I'm not in the habit of praying to angels, though the prayers of a righteous Angel likely wouldn't hurt anyone. Christ truly did pass His own body and blood to His disciples at the last supper, and He still does now.If I am being judgmental of a doctrine that clearly is anti Christ so be it.
If by a backhanded comment about what pictures we looked at as children is a rebuttal, then you opened the cage.
JW. Follow there own Bible there own theories and will have to answer for that.
I do not lure anyone to debate,I simply try to understand what other posters are promoting.
It's clear one Catholic here is promoting Mariology, another is riding the fence.
My point in asking is my curiosity is if you both are under the authority of the Pope.
Do both types of Catholics here believe that Mary makes intercession to Christ for us?
Do you both pray to Angel's ?
Do you both believe at the last supper Christ passed his own blood in the cups to the Apostles?
If the answer about the blood is no,then why or how would you think he does it over and over again today?
I am qualified to ask these questions in the Baptist fourm because I am a Freewill Baptist that believes that the Word of Faith movement core teaching is valid.
If I am being judgmental of a doctrine that clearly is anti Christ so be it.
If by a backhanded comment about what pictures we looked at as children is a rebuttal, then you opened the cage.
JW. Follow there own Bible there own theories and will have to answer for that.
I do not lure anyone to debate,I simply try to understand what other posters are promoting.
It's clear one Catholic here is promoting Mariology, another is riding the fence.
My point in asking is my curiosity is if you both are under the authority of the Pope.
Do both types of Catholics here believe that Mary makes intercession to Christ for us?
Do you both pray to Angel's ?
Do you both believe at the last supper Christ passed his own blood in the cups to the Apostles?
If the answer about the blood is no,then why or how would you think he does it over and over again today?
I am qualified to ask these questions in the Baptist fourm because I am a Freewill Baptist that believes that the Word of Faith movement core teaching is valid.
I've no problem with answering these questions in that order: I'm not under the authority of the Roman Papacy. Of a certainty, the Theotokos makes intercession to Christ for us. The Evangelist Luke, writer of one of the synoptic Gospels, also wrote the original of the icon that I use for my avatar right there. I'm not in the habit of praying to angels, though the prayers of a righteous Angel likely wouldn't hurt anyone. Christ truly did pass His own body and blood to His disciples at the last supper, and He still does now.
On the Theotokos translated from Greek as Mother of God.
Mary bore Christ through Spiritual conception, God is a Spirit, and we do know Christ was with God from the beginning.
Proverbs: 8. 22. The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old. 23. I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was. 24. When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water. 25. Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth: 26. While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world. 27. When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth: 28. When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep: 29. When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth: 30. Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him; 31. Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men. 32. Now therefore hearken unto me, O ye children: for blessed are they that keep my ways. 33. Hear instruction, and be wise, and refuse it not. 34. Blessed is the man that heareth me, watching daily at my gates, waiting at the posts of my doors. 35. For whoso findeth me findeth life, and shall obtain favour of the LORD. 36. But he that sinneth against me wrongeth his own soul: all they that hate me love death. -
1 Peter: 1. 19. But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: 20. Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, 21. Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God. -
So Christ Jesus was eternaly God with us predestined to redeem mankind .
Or let me quote from Williams’ Practice of Obstetrics, Third Edition, page 133. Here I quote,
"The fetal blood in the vessels of the chorionic villae AT NO TIME GAINS ACCESS TO THE MATERNAL BLOOD in the intervillous space,BEING SEPARATED FROM ONE ANOTHER by the double layer of chorionic epithelium."
And from page 136 of the same recognized textbook I quote,
"Normally there is no communication between the fetal blood and the maternal blood.
(Qoute Dehaan)
So Mary being a blessed very special woman ,did not have any part of the creation of Christ as a normal woman would have by physical means.
As with a child having his Father's blood this would have to be the case with Mary due to Christ not being born with sin.
God clearly states the life is in the blood.
If Mary was biologically linked to Christ so would her sin be.
For Mary to have had a divine nature she would have had to be a fourth in the God head and with God before Christ.
I hope this post is not taken in offence,I am simply using logical means to reconcile a huge part of religon today.
The Life (His body and blood) that Christ gives us is not any dead (expired) body and blood, but His very own Living and deified humanity, which also quickens us (John 6:53) if we accept His gift with an attitude of genuine repentance. This Life of His is eternal and not subject to the limits of time, which is why He is able to make it available to His disciples at the last supper. For the Lamb is "slain before the foundation of the world" (Revelation 13:8)There is one thing I do not understand, in these Cathloic sacraments.
God's Word tells us the lamb must be spotless unblemished.
Christ fulfilled the prophetic meaning to the promises of the Old Testament, right down to his hands and legs pierced and casting lots for his clothes as stated in Psalms.
If he had given his Blood and body before his time of atonement, would this have been contrary to being a unspotted sacrifice with out blemish?
In other words the passover lamb had shed blood before the appointed time.
God is three persons: the Father, His Word (Son), and His Spirit. The Father is God, the Word is God, and the Spirit is God. The person Who is the Word "became flesh" (John 1:14), taking His flesh from the virgin Mary, Who is His mother. Also, being a mother is much more than simply being a vessel by which one enters into life as a human. As our modern psychological scientists now clearly understand, a person's development into a human person is wholly dependent upon the reciprocal relationship one has with their primary caregiver (usually and most ideally the mother). Where good enough mothering is lacking a person does not develop as they should, emotionally, psychologically, or spiritually, because even the brain and nervous system will fail to undergo the development necessary for a complete and healthy human psyche to emerge. Given this basic understanding of the importance of the bonding that takes place in the mother-infant relationship, one can be pretty sure that Christ, in order to be the perfect human being, had the benefit of perfect mothering. Mary could be the perfect mother to Christ because she was "full of grace" (Luke 1:28), being a very special woman whom God had also prepared by His plan and His grace to be the means by which the Word would enter into the humanity He created and emerge as a perfect human. Mary always submits to God's will, and freely chooses to be the mother of God.On the Theotokos translated from Greek as Mother of God.
Mary bore Christ through Spiritual conception, God is a Spirit, and we do know Christ was with God from the beginning.
Proverbs: 8. 22. The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old. 23. I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was. 24. When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water. 25. Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth: 26. While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world. 27. When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth: 28. When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep: 29. When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth: 30. Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him; 31. Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men. 32. Now therefore hearken unto me, O ye children: for blessed are they that keep my ways. 33. Hear instruction, and be wise, and refuse it not. 34. Blessed is the man that heareth me, watching daily at my gates, waiting at the posts of my doors. 35. For whoso findeth me findeth life, and shall obtain favour of the LORD. 36. But he that sinneth against me wrongeth his own soul: all they that hate me love death. -
1 Peter: 1. 19. But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: 20. Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, 21. Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God. -
So Christ Jesus was eternaly God with us predestined to redeem mankind .
Or let me quote from Williams’ Practice of Obstetrics, Third Edition, page 133. Here I quote,
"The fetal blood in the vessels of the chorionic villae AT NO TIME GAINS ACCESS TO THE MATERNAL BLOOD in the intervillous space,BEING SEPARATED FROM ONE ANOTHER by the double layer of chorionic epithelium."
And from page 136 of the same recognized textbook I quote,
"Normally there is no communication between the fetal blood and the maternal blood.
(Qoute Dehaan)
So Mary being a blessed very special woman ,did not have any part of the creation of Christ as a normal woman would have by physical means.
As with a child having his Father's blood this would have to be the case with Mary due to Christ not being born with sin.
God clearly states the life is in the blood.
If Mary was biologically linked to Christ so would her sin be.
For Mary to have had a divine nature she would have had to be a fourth in the God head and with God before Christ.
I hope this post is not taken in offence,I am simply using logical means to reconcile a huge part of religon today.
God is three persons: the Father, His Word (Son), and His Spirit. The Father is God, the Word is God, and the Spirit is God. The person Who is the Word "became flesh" (John 1:14), taking His flesh from the virgin Mary, Who is His mother. Also, being a mother is much more than simply being a vessel by which one enters into life as a human. As our modern psychological scientists now clearly understand, a person's development into a human person is wholly dependent upon the reciprocal relationship one has with their primary caregiver (usually and most ideally the mother). Where good enough mothering is lacking a person does not develop as they should, emotionally, psychologically, or spiritually, because even the brain and nervous system will fail to undergo the development necessary for a complete and healthy human psyche to emerge. Given this basic understanding of the importance of the bonding that takes place in the mother-infant relationship, one can be pretty sure that Christ, in order to be the perfect human being, had the benefit of perfect mothering. Mary could be the perfect mother to Christ because she was "full of grace" (Luke 1:28), being a very special woman whom God had also prepared by His plan and His grace to be the means by which the Word would enter into the humanity He created and emerge as a perfect human. Mary always submits to God's will, and freely chooses to be the mother of God.
The Life (His body and blood) that Christ gives us is not any dead (expired) body and blood, but His very own Living and deified humanity, which also quickens us (John 6:53) if we accept His gift with an attitude of genuine repentance. This Life of His is eternal and not subject to the limits of time, which is why He is able to make it available to His disciples at the last supper. For the Lamb is "slain before the foundation of the world" (Revelation 13:8)
Brother I do not believe Mother Mary is Divine; however, it was Mary's blood that Christ has a very real Blood right to the throne of king David, You'll find Luke traces Jesus blood line to Adam, it is not our blood which holds sin but our heart. God promised king David one from his bloodline would sit on his throne forever. This is Jesus. Mary and Joseph were both from king David's bloodline. cousins i think.
The guy specifically says he doesn't want to debate and the first thing you do is throw up a bunch of stuff to start a debate just because of his beliefs? What's your problem?HI Timmytucker
I have a question is this what you believe so maybe I can understand where you are comming from ?
Timmy is this somewhat you believe?
- There is one God in one person, Make Sure of All Things, p 188.(See False God)
- There is no Trinity, Let God be True, 2nd Ed., pp. 100-101; Should You Believe in the Trinity? p. 7; Watchtower, 2/1/1960, p. 94, Why Do You Believe in the Trinity? (See False Trinity)
- The Holy Spirit is a force, not alive, Reasoning from the Scriptures, 1985, pp. 406-407. (See False Holy Spirit)
- The Holy Spirit is God's impersonal active force, The Watchtower, June 1, 1952,
p. 24.- Jehovah's first creation was his 'only-begotten Son'. . . was used by Jehovah in
creating all other things", Aid to Bible Understanding, p. 390-391.- Jesus was Michael the archangel who became a man, The Watchtower, May 15,
1963, p. 307; The New World, 284.- Jesus was only a perfect man, not God in flesh, Reasoning from the Scriptures,
1985, p. 306.- Jesus did not rise from the dead in his physical body, Awake! July 22, 1973, p. 4.
- Jesus was raised "not a human creature, but a spirit." Let God be True, p. 276.
- Jesus was born again, The Watchtower, Nov. 15, 1954, p. 682.
- Jesus did not die on a cross but on a stake, Reasoning from the Scriptures, 1985,
p. 89-90.- Jesus began his invisible rule over the earth in 1914, The Truth Shall Make You Free,
p. 300.- Jesus' ransom sacrifice did not include Adam.
- "The man Adam is not included in those ransomed. Why not? Because he was a willful sinner, was justly sentenced to death, and died deservedly, and God would not reverse his judgment and give Adam life." Let God be True, p. 119, copyright 1946.;
- "There was no hope for Adam or Eve because they willfully chose to disobey God. But what about their offspring, including us?" Jehovahâs WitnessesâOfficial Website: jw.org
- Their church is the self-proclaimed prophet of God, The Watchtower, April 1,
1972, p. 197.- They claim to be the only channel of God's truth, The Watchtower, Feb. 15,
1981, p. 19.- Only their church members will be saved, The Watchtower, Feb, 15, 1979, p. 30.
- Good works are necessary for salvation, Studies in the Scriptures, Vol. 1,
p. 150, 152.- The soul ceases to exist after death, Let God be True, p. 59, 60, 67.
- There is no hell of fire where the wicked are punished, Let God be True, p. 79, 80.
- Only 144,000 Jehovah's Witness go to heaven, Reasoning from the Scriptures,
1985, pp. 166-167, 361; Let God be True, p. 121.- Only the 144,000 Jehovah's Witness are born again. Reasoning from the
Scriptures, 1985, p. 76.; Watchtower 11/15/54, p. 681.- Only the 144,000 may take communion.
- Blood transfusions are a sin, Reasoning from the Scriptures, 1985, pp. 72-73.
- The Cross is a pagan symbol and should not be used, Reasoning from the
Scriptures, 1985, p. 90-92.- Salvation is by faith and what you do, Studies in the Scriptures, Vol. 1, p.
150,152.- It is possible to lose your salvation, Reasoning from the Scriptures, 1985, p.
358-359.- The universe is billions of years old, Your will Be Done on Earth, p. 43.
- Each of the 6 creative days of God in Genesis 1, was 7000 years long.
Therefore, Man was created toward the end of 42,000 years of earth's
preparation, Let God be True, p. 168.- They also refuse to vote, salute the flag, sing the "Star Spangled Banner," or
celebrate Christmas or birthdays. They are not allowed to serve in the armed
forces.- Satan was entrusted with the obligation and charged with the duty of
overseeing the creation of the earth, Children, p. 55
Tim wants a bible study not a debate.Hello Timmytucker
The truth is we don't share any of the same beliefs. You believe that there is more than one God and they are not equal in power or position, while we believe there is one God in three persons all equal. You believe that you must work to be saved while we believe we are saved by grace through faith because of the finish work of Jesus Christ which produces good works. You believe in more then the bible and we believe only in the bible. So if there is to be spiritural food sharing it has to come from only the word of God the bible, not any other book or the changing of the bible. So are you ready to embrace that the bible alone contains the only truth through the word of God?
Here is some of the other false teaching that your system teaches;
Christ is not equal to God because He is a creature.
Christ was first of God's creations
Christ died on a stake, not a cross
Christ was raised from the dead as an immortal spirit person
Christ's presence is in spirit
Kingdom under Christ will rule earth in righteousness and peace
Kingdom brings ideal living conditions to earth
Earth will never be destroyed or depopulated
God will destroy present system of things in the battle at Har-Magedon
Wicked will be eternally destroyed
The human soul ceases to exist at death
Hell is mankind's common grave
Only a little flock of 144,000 go to heaven and rule with Christ
The 144,000 are born again as spiritual sons of God
Now if you are ready to learn the truth then I am willing to explain it to you, but other then that we have no fellowship according to scripture and command.
Eph 5:11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove [them].