Contradictions in the Second Coming

[Achilles6129]

Hey guys, thanks for the responses. I do have to say that the passages still puzzle me to some extent. I will also say that I think the only possible solution is two separate comings of Christ. I may have more to say on this later. Right now, I have not been able to read all of your responses but I know it's some good stuff. Thanks again.

 

[Achilles6129]

I believe the day of The Lord is a metaphor for a specific time period... Many events take place within many days it's clear

Same with thief in the night ... It's not one particular day ..though on a specific day he actually come ..but that at a appointed time these events overcome them and take them by surprise not ever expecting the events of prophecy to actually happen...they were in disbelief and when the time comes they will be surprised that the New Testament prophecies were true

Right. But Christ does say that "thus shall it be in the day the Son of Man is revealed" which is a distinct point in time, not a metaphor for a certain series of events. Christ says on the day of this revealing all will be as normal. People will be getting married, buying, selling, planting, building, and so on, and then suddenly "the Son of Man is revealed."

So we are talking about a distinct point in time here.

They are all talking about the same 'set' of events. Jesus returns like a thief and takes away those who are his and then the bowls of God's wrath are poured out upon the earth.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

Your solution seems to be similar to mine. In mine, the "day the Son of Man is revealed" is talking about Christ's revealing for the rapture. Then the destruction comes, just like upon Sodom/Gomorrah or the antediluvian civilization. This destruction, however, would not be instantaneous, but would encompass the plagues in the book of Revelation.

 

[dfw69]

Hey guys, thanks for the responses. I do have to say that the passages still puzzle me to some extent. I will also say that I think the only possible solution is two separate comings of Christ. I may have more to say on this later. Right now, I have not been able to read all of your responses but I know it's some good stuff. Thanks again.

Your welcome I'm happy to reply

 

[dfw69]

Right. But Christ does say that "thus shall it be in the day the Son of Man is revealed" which is a distinct point in time, not a metaphor for a certain series of events. Christ says on the day of this revealing all will be as normal. People will be getting married, buying, selling, planting, building, and so on, and then suddenly "the Son of Man is revealed."

So we are talking about a distinct point in time here.

Some passages refer and describe a specific day and some in general giving the whole picture IMO


Otherwise it does not make sense

 

[Achilles6129]

In the parable of the ten virgins (Matthew 25:1-12) we read that “the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the wedding; and the door was shut. Afterward the other virgins came also, saying, ‘Lord, Lord, open to us!’ But he answered and said, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, I do not know you.’” (Matthew 25:10-12) here we plainly see the righteous taken into the Lord’s presence while the wicked are left outside a door that remains closed in spite of their pleading. But that is not all that we see here. The word “afterward” in this parable indicates a delay between the time when “they that were ready went in with him” and the time when “other virgins came also.” This is significant because it indicates that the “other virgins” were not removed until after the time when “they that were ready went in with him.”

But in the parable of the wheat and the tares (Matthew 13:24-30) we read that at the time of harvest the owner of the field will say, “First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn.” (Matthew 13:30) The word “first” in this command clearly indicates that the wicked are gathered before the righteous. Now this order of events is exactly the opposite of the order indicated in Matthew 25. (And yes, the words “afterward” and “first” are in the Greek text of these parables.) The contrast between these orders of events clearly indicates that the two parables are speaking of two different events that take place at different times.

In the explanation of the parable in Matthew 13, (Matthew 13:37-43) Jesus said this meant that “The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. ” (Matthew 13:41-43) He then added that “Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a dragnet that was cast into the sea and gathered some of every kind, which, when it was full, they drew to shore; and they sat down and gathered the good into vessels, but threw the bad away. So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come forth, separate the wicked from among the just, and cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.” (Matthew 13:47-50)

This is again radically different from the scene presented in Matthew 25. In Matthew 13, the wicked are taken “from among the just.” In Matthew 25, the just are taken from among the wicked. In Matthew 13, the wicked are removed and cast into the fire. In Matthew 25, the wicked are left where they are, but are given no further chance to repent.

This fact that they are given no further chance to repent is stressed in 2 Thessalonians 2:9-12, where we read that “The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.” The reason for this is distinctly stated. God will do this as a punishment “because they did not receive the love of the truth,” that is, because they did not wish to know the truth. This awful punishment is because, instead of receiving the truth, they “had pleasure in unrighteousness.” Nor is this only stated in the New Testament. We see it again in the last chapter of Isaiah, where we read, “Just as they have chosen their own ways, And their soul delights in their abominations, So will I choose their delusions, And bring their fears on them; Because, when I called, no one answered, When I spoke they did not hear; But they did evil before My eyes, And chose that in which I do not delight.” (Isaiah 66:3-4) So the scriptures clearly teach that there is a time coming in which those who had previously rejected the gospel will have no more chance to repent. This is in perfect keeping with the statement of Matthew 25:10 that “the door was shut” after “the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the wedding.” It is also in perfect keeping with the statement of Matthew 25:11-12 that “Afterward the other virgins came also, saying, ‘Lord, Lord, open to us!’ But he answered and said, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, I do not know you.’” This parable clearly shows that there will be those that seek a relationship with the bridegroom after He has come. But at that time it will be too late. 2 Thessalonians 2:9-12 clearly states that at that time, those that had previously rejected God’s word will be turned over to believe “the lie.” And Isaiah 66:3-4 just as clearly states that at that time God “will choose their delusions.” The time being spoken of here is plainly the time we call the tribulation. But it takes place after “the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the wedding.”

Hello James,

First I have to say, excellent posts. Your observations are quite good. I do have one small quibble, though, and that is your interpretation (as I understand it, at least) of Matthew 25. The time spoken of in Matthew 25 is clearly the physical second coming of Christ. This is apparent because it is talking about the wedding:

"Let us rejoice and exult
and give him the glory,
for the marriage of the Lamb has come,
and his bride has made herself ready;" Rev. 19:7 (NRSV)

" 10 And while they went to buy it, the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went with him into the wedding banquet; and the door was shut." Mt. 25:10 (NRSV)

So there can be no doubt whatsoever that the parable of the bridesmaids in Matthew 25 is referring to the actual marriage of the Lamb, which occurs in Revelation 19 at the physical second coming of Christ. It cannot in any way be referring to the rapture.

 

[Achilles6129]

Some passages refer and describe a specific day and some in general giving the whole picture IMO


Otherwise it does not make sense

Right. So when Christ says that it will be "just like that on the day the Son of Man is revealed" he must be talking about an actual specific day. If there is any further doubt about this, the passage in Matthew 24 confirms it:

"37 For as the days of Noah were, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 38 For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day Noah entered the ark, 39 and they knew nothing until the flood came and swept them all away, so too will be the coming of the Son of Man." Mt. 24:37-39 (NRSV)

Now the interesting thing about Mt. 24:37-51 is that it is inextricably linked to the parable of the bridesmaids in Mt. 25:

"“Then the kingdom of heaven will be like this. Ten bridesmaids[a] took their lamps and went to meet the bridegroom..." Mt. 25:1 (NRSV)

Christ is indicating that at the point in time he describes in Mt. 24:37-51 the kingdom of heaven will be as he describes in the parable of the bridesmaids in Mt. 25. Now the parable of the bridesmaids is, of course, linked to the physical second coming of Christ in Revelation 19 by use of the "marriage" metaphor (which I have shown in a previous post).

So we could say as follows:

Mt. 24:37-51-->Mt.25:1-13-->Rev.19

This conclusion, would, of course, totally contradict my idea that Luke 17:22ff is referring to the rapture. For Luke 17:22ff is clearly linked to Mt. 24:37ff.

So the only solution would be to claim that the same metaphors are being used to describe two distinct points in time.

 

[bibletruth469]

I would like to give my opinion of Matthew 25. I believe that these parables pertain to the tribulation survivors and not the church. So there is no contradiction between these passages and Matt 24 ( mostly pertaining to Israel) and rev 19 ( pertaining to the church). Please let me explain my opinion below:

The age of grace will end at the timing of the rapture. The people of the tribulation will have to 'prove 'their faith and keep their clothing white as it says in these 2 parables .
1) 10 virgins- 5 kept oil ( Holy Spirit ) 5 did not. It seems like they were not filled with the spirit living inside of the believer as of today( age of grace) , but kept oil in lamps not within. They are also called bridesmaids, not the bride like the church is called.

2) talents- the people listed in this parable are judged according to what they have done. In the period of grace which we are now living, we are never judged by what we do but what Christ has done for us.

Later in Matt 25 vses 31-46. This is the judgement time of the tribulation survivors the sheep and goat judgment . Again, it is how people treated each other during this time period . The people left alive during the tribulation seem be not treated the same way and are judged differently than the church age believers who are not judged at all by what they do, only by what Christ has done.

 

[Achilles6129]

I would like to give my opinion of Matthew 25. I believe that these parables pertain to the tribulation survivors and not the church. So there is no contradiction between these passages and Matt 24 ( mostly pertaining to Israel) and rev 19 ( pertaining to the church).

OK. If they refer to tribulation survivors, then why is the parable expressly linked with Mt. 24:37 and subsequent? See my previous post. Mt. 25:1 links the parable with the revealing of the Son of Man, in which he clearly talks about his disciples.

Please let me explain my opinion below:

The age of grace will end at the timing of the rapture. The people of the tribulation will have to 'prove 'their faith and keep their clothing white as it says in these 2 parables .
1) 10 virgins- 5 kept oil ( Holy Spirit ) 5 did not. It seems like they were not filled with the spirit living inside of the believer as of today( age of grace) , but kept oil in lamps not within. They are also called bridesmaids, not the bride like the church is called.

Excellent observation about the bridesmaids/bride which I hadn't thought about. However, I do not think the distinction makes a difference. We have to be careful here not to press the details of the parables too far. These are, after all, parables. Christ uses "bridesmaids" for a specific purpose - to show that some of them would not be ready. Obviously, there is only one bride, so it would be impossible to tell a parable about not being ready by using only the bride.

The point of the parable is to be in a constant state of readiness. Bridesmaids are a perfect illustration. A bride could not be used to represent this fact.

I disagree to some extent with the rest of your post but it is not important for our discussion here. My major point above was that Luke 17:22ff = Mt. 24:37ff = Mt. 25:1-3 = Rev. 19. So if this were true, then Luke 17:22 (and so on) would have to be talking about the actual physical second coming of Christ.

 

[bibletruth469]

OK. If they refer to tribulation survivors, then why is the parable expressly linked with Mt. 24:37 and subsequent? See my previous post. Mt. 25:1 links the parable with the revealing of the Son of Man, in which he clearly talks about his disciples. Excellent observation about the bridesmaids/bride which I hadn't thought about. However, I do not think the distinction makes a difference. We have to be careful here not to press the details of the parables too far. These are, after all, parables. Christ uses "bridesmaids" for a specific purpose - to show that some of them would not be ready. Obviously, there is only one bride, so it would be impossible to tell a parable about not being ready by using only the bride. The point of the parable is to be in a constant state of readiness. Bridesmaids are a perfect illustration. A bride could not be used to represent this fact. I disagree to some extent with the rest of your post but it is not important for our discussion here. My major point above was that Luke 17:22ff = Mt. 24:37ff = Mt. 25:1-3 = Rev. 19. So if this were true, then Luke 17:22 (and so on) would have to be talking about the actual physical second coming of Christ.

I believe that there are two separate comings of Christ . One is the rapture of the saved which closes the age of grace and one is Christ coming back to earth as a judge to those left on the earth . All of these passages mentioned above , should be taken literally in there context. Jesus was giving the disciples ( and believers for our time frame) a lot of information to process in a few verses that speak volumes. Some of the verses pertain to the believers while others to the unbelievers . Some are for Israel, some are for the church and some are for the people in the tribulation . That's why the bible has to be taken as a whole. Scripture interprets scripture . That's why studying the bible is so important for our understanding . I haven't done a word study on the word 'thief '. You are right; the word is used in different ways. I like what you posted and the questions raised. It keeps us believers thinking and studying ! God bless

 

[bibletruth469]

I think bible writer did an excellent job in his presentation . He showed that there are no contradictions in the scripture at all. I believe that since the prophecies of the past have all been fulfilled exactly how the scripture said they would , that the prophecies of the future will follow in the same manner . We as people can get caught up in some of the details of scripture, but we need to remember that God knows the beginning from the end .

 

[Bible2]

Achilles6129 said in post 25:

So there can be no doubt whatsoever that the parable of the bridesmaids in Matthew 25 is referring to the actual marriage of the Lamb, which occurs in Revelation 19 at the physical second coming of Christ.

That's right.

The 10-virgins parable (Matthew 25:1-13) shows that the marriage of the church to Jesus won't occur until his 2nd coming (Matthew 25:10), which Jesus had just finished saying won't occur until "immediately after the tribulation" (Matthew 24:29-31), just like Revelation 19:7 shows that the marriage won't occur until after the tribulation, shown in Revelation chapters 6 to 18. The parable's extra oil (Matthew 25:4,9b) could represent the continued good works of believers, by which they will be able to pass the judgment of the church by Jesus (Matthew 25:19-30, Romans 2:6-8) and enter the marriage of the church to Jesus at his 2nd coming (Matthew 25:10, Revelation 19:7-21).

The marriage supper (Revelation 19:9) won't have yet begun by the time of Revelation 19, which won't begin until after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (cf. Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8). For regarding the church, the marriage supper will be a literal feast in the earthly Jerusalem after the resurrection and marriage of the church at Jesus' 2nd coming (Isaiah 25:6-9; 1 Corinthians 15:54, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-54). While the church will enjoy a feast "of fat things full of marrow, of wines on the lees well refined" (Isaiah 25:6), the birds will feast on the corpses of the world's armies defeated at Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:17-21).

Also, regarding the 10-virgins parable, in Matthew 25:6, "midnight" could represent mid-tribulation, when the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) could be set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem (Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31). So when it says "at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh" (Matthew 25:6), this could mean that at the mid-tribulation point when the abomination of desolation is set up, the church will be given the knowledge of the date (as in the year, month, and day) of Jesus' 2nd coming. This date could be the 1,335th day after the abomination of desolation is set up (Daniel 12:11-12, cf. Revelation 16:15).

Achilles6129 said in post 25:

So there can be no doubt whatsoever that the parable of the bridesmaids in Matthew 25 is referring to the actual marriage of the Lamb, which occurs in Revelation 19 at the physical second coming of Christ. It cannot in any way be referring to the rapture.

Why can't it be in accord with the post-tribulation rapture?

Note that nothing in the Bible teaches or requires a pre-tribulation rapture of the church. Instead, the Bible makes clear that Jesus won't come and gather together (rapture) the church until immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8). That's why the marriage of the church doesn't happen until Revelation 19:7, in connection with Jesus' 2nd coming and the bodily resurrection of the church at that time (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16). Matthew 24:30-31 refers to the same 2nd coming of Jesus and gathering together (rapture) of the church as 2 Thessalonians 2:1, which refers to the same 2nd coming of Jesus and catching up together (rapture) of the church as 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17.

Jesus won't return and gather together (rapture) the church until sometime after there's a falling away (an apostasy) in the church, and the Antichrist sits in a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem and proclaims himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:1-4, Daniel 11:31,36, Revelation 11:1-2, Revelation 13:4-8), and the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) is set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of the 3rd Jewish temple (Matthew 24:15-31, Daniel 11:31). For when Jesus returns to gather together (and marry) the church he will destroy the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:1,8, Revelation 19:7,20). Before Jesus returns, the church will have to go through the future, literal 3.5 years of the Antichrist's worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-31).

At Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:30), the church will be resurrected and caught up together/gathered together (raptured) (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:31), not to remove the church from the earth (Proverbs 10:30, John 17:15,20), but to take the church only as high as the clouds of the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17).

At that meeting, Jesus will judge everyone in the church (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27) by their works (2 Corinthians 5:10, Romans 2:6-8, Luke 12:45-48, Matthew 25:19-30). And then Jesus will marry in the clouds the obedient part of the church (Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-12), those in the church (of all times) who "overcame" to the end (Revelation 3:5, Revelation 2:26). They will then mount white horses and come back down from the sky (the first heaven) with Jesus (Revelation 19:14) as he defeats the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) and all the world's armies (Revelation 19:15-21). Jesus will then make the marriage supper of Revelation 19:9 for the resurrected and married obedient part of the church in the earthly Jerusalem (Isaiah 25:6-9; 1 Corinthians 15:54). Jesus and the obedient part of the church will then reign on the earth for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29).

*******

Achilles6129 said in post 28:

My major point above was that Luke 17:22ff = Mt. 24:37ff = Mt. 25:1-3 = Rev. 19. So if this were true, then Luke 17:22 (and so on) would have to be talking about the actual physical second coming of Christ.

That's right.

Luke 17:26-37 and Matthew 24:37-41 refer to what will happen at Jesus' 2nd coming, "when the Son of man is revealed" (Luke 17:30), "the coming of the Son of man" (Matthew 24:37,39), which Jesus had just finished saying won't happen until immediately after the future tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31). Those "taken" at the 2nd coming (Luke 17:34-36, Matthew 24:40-41) will be unsaved people who will be taken to where they will be killed and birds will eat their dead bodies (Luke 17:36-37; Matthew 24:28, cf. Job 39:30b; Revelation 19:21). The Greek word "paralambano" ("taken": Luke 17:34-36, Matthew 24:40-41) can be used to refer to being taken to another place to be killed (John 19:16-18).

Those "left" where they are at the 2nd coming (Luke 17:34-36, Matthew 24:40-41) will include unsaved people who will be forced to come up annually to worship the returned Jesus in Jerusalem during the millennium (Zechariah 14:16-19). These unsaved people will have to be ruled with a rod of iron by Jesus and the bodily resurrected church during the millennium (Revelation 2:26-29, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 20:4-6, Psalms 2, Psalms 66:3, Psalms 72:8-11). And their descendants will be deceived by Satan after the millennium is over into committing the Gog/Magog rebellion (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39).

Before the millennium, at Jesus' 2nd coming, those in the church will neither be "taken" and killed, nor "left" where they are, but will be "gathered together" (raptured) (Matthew 24:31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1) into the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17). The purpose of this rapture meeting will be so that those in the church can be judged by Jesus (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27) and married to Jesus (Revelation 19:7) in the sky, before Jesus descends from the sky (the first heaven) with the obedient part of church to bring his 2nd-coming wrath on the unsaved world (Revelation 19:14 to 20:3).

So the 2nd coming will be like "the days of Noah" (Matthew 24:37) and "the days of Lot" (Luke 17:28,30) in that just as Noah went into the ark before the Flood, and Lot went out from Sodom before it was destroyed, so the church will be raptured into the sky at the 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, Matthew 24:30-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7) before Jesus begins the 2nd-coming wrath (Revelation 19:15 to 20:3, Luke 17:26-30, Matthew 24:37-39).

 

[Bible2]

bibletruth469 said in post 27:

The people left alive during the tribulation seem be not treated the same way and are judged differently than the church age believers who are not judged at all by what they do, only by what Christ has done.

Note that there's no such thing as the church age, for the church will continue in the world throughout all ages (Ephesians 3:21, John 17:15). For just as the church will continue in the world throughout the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6), and then throughout the subsequent millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29), so the church will then continue forever on the new earth (Revelation 21:1 to 22:5).

bibletruth469 said in post 27:

The people left alive during the tribulation seem be not treated the same way and are judged differently than the church age believers who are not judged at all by what they do, only by what Christ has done.

Actually, Jesus will judge everyone in the church by their works (2 Corinthians 5:10, Romans 2:6-8, Luke 12:45-48, Matthew 25:19-30). And some saved people, at the judgment of the church by Jesus, at his 2nd coming (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27), will even lose their salvation at that time because of such things as unrepentant sin (Luke 12:45-46, Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27), unrepentant laziness (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a, Romans 2:6-8), or apostasy (Mark 8:35-38, Hebrews 6:4-8; 2 Timothy 2:12b). That's why saved people know the "terror" of the coming judgment of the church by Jesus (2 Corinthians 5:10-11), why they must remain in fear of being cut off the same as unbelievers if they don't continue in God's goodness (Romans 11:20-22, Luke 12:45-46), why they must be careful to work out their own ultimate salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12b; 1 Peter 1:17, Romans 2:6-8).

 

[bibletruth469]

Note that there's no such thing as the church age, for the church will continue in the world throughout all ages (Ephesians 3:21, John 17:15). For just as the church will continue in the world throughout the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6), and then throughout the subsequent millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29), so the church will then continue forever on the new earth (Revelation 21:1 to 22:5). Actually, Jesus will judge everyone in the church by their works (2 Corinthians 5:10, Romans 2:6-8, Luke 12:45-48, Matthew 25:19-30). And some saved people, at the judgment of the church by Jesus, at his 2nd coming (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27), will even lose their salvation at that time because of such things as unrepentant sin (Luke 12:45-46, Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27), unrepentant laziness (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a, Romans 2:6-8), or apostasy (Mark 8:35-38, Hebrews 6:4-8; 2 Timothy 2:12b). That's why saved people know the "terror" of the coming judgment of the church by Jesus (2 Corinthians 5:10-11), why they must remain in fear of being cut off the same as unbelievers if they don't continue in God's goodness (Romans 11:20-22, Luke 12:45-46), why they must be careful to work out their own ultimate salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12b; 1 Peter 1:17, Romans 2:6-8).

I disagree with you on front fronts. We are living now in the age of grace for the past 2000 years or so. Christ died for our sins and rose again for anyone who accepts Him as their savior . We can not lose our salvation . There are many scriptures verses that teach this and I've mentioned them before in different threads . When the rapture happens , age of grace ends. People on earth will go by a different set of rules. They will not have the Holy Spirit living inside of them like we have today. Yes, I guess you could say that these people have to prove that they are one of His by what they do (IMO ). This is not the case for us living today. We are saved by grace through faith and it is a free gift of God.

The people in the tribulation on will be judged by what they do. Sheep and goat judgement . The believers will not be part of that judgement. Believers will be part of the judgement seat of Christ. We will be judged by what we have done in the body to earn a reward, not to lose our salvation. This will take place in heaven and will be a separate judgement.

 

[Time Watcher]

There are no contradictions related to the Lord's next intervention

He will intervene as a "thief" ..... no warning .... to snatch away His ecclesia

He will then bring His hour of trial and judgment upon a world of unbelief .... He will not be seen by earth dwellers, but they will know that they are under His unmitigated wrath

And only after will He appear in the open to those who survive

It is the false teaching of men that causes the apparent contridiction

 

[Achilles6129]

I believe that there are two separate comings of Christ . One is the rapture of the saved which closes the age of grace and one is Christ coming back to earth as a judge to those left on the earth . All of these passages mentioned above , should be taken literally in there context. Jesus was giving the disciples ( and believers for our time frame) a lot of information to process in a few verses that speak volumes. Some of the verses pertain to the believers while others to the unbelievers . Some are for Israel, some are for the church and some are for the people in the tribulation . That's why the bible has to be taken as a whole. Scripture interprets scripture . That's why studying the bible is so important for our understanding . I haven't done a word study on the word 'thief '. You are right; the word is used in different ways. I like what you posted and the questions raised. It keeps us believers thinking and studying ! God bless

So then what do you believe Luke 17:22ff and the other passages I quoted are referring to?

I have shown above that these passages are equivalent. This would mean that Luke 17:22ff is referring to Christ's physical second coming. Where are the passages where Christ speaks of the rapture, then?

 

[Time Watcher]

Hint:

As long as you do not understand the difference between the Lord's relationship to His national people Israel and to His ecclesia of today, you will not be able to properly render scriptures that refer to the one, or the other .... and you will be confused

His action to immortalize His ecclesia is one thing, but His appearing to Israel at the end of this present age is another

You will not find what you call the "rapture" in the scriptures that refer to the nation of Israel at the end of this present age

Those of Israel who will survive as mortals at the end of Jacob's coming time of trouble will not be resurrected .... they will enter and populated His millenial kingdom on the earth just after .... as mortals [Isaiah 11; 27:13; Zechariah 13:8-9; Matthew 24:29-31]

 

[HisSparkPlug]

The way I understand it, God is coming TO His people in a very real & very personal way before He comes "for" His people

"Behold, I am going to send My messenger, and he will clear the way before Me. And the Lord, whom you seek, will suddenly come to His temple; and the messenger of the covenant, in whom you delight, behold, He is coming," says the LORD of hosts" - Mal 3:1

 

[bibletruth469]

So then what do you believe Luke 17:22ff and the other passages I quoted are referring to? I have shown above that these passages are equivalent. This would mean that Luke 17:22ff is referring to Christ's physical second coming. Where are the passages where Christ speaks of the rapture, then?

Yes, I believe that Luke 17 and Matthew 24 , Jesus is speaking about the same event. ( the second coming of Jesus back to earth, being watchful , and the events that will occur before he comes back). I believe that most of these events are directed to the nation of Israel and also the Gentiles who will be living during that period.

When Jesus mentions the days of Noah , people will still be trying to carry on with life even though at times it will be almost impossible because of the wrath on the earth . I really think Jesus was making a comparison to being watchful and not to be taken by surprise.

In my opinion , Matt 24:36 ( no one knows the day or hour) refers to the physical second coming of Jesus back to earth and not the rapture.I know that most people will differ on this one with me. Please let me explain my thoughts . Backing up to verse 30, it says , " And then shall appear the sign of the son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory". We are not told if he will come back instantly or slowly. Maybe they will not actually know the exact day or hour. All they know is that they can see Him coming back. This is Just a thought on my part and is speculation about knowing the day or the hour. Welcoming any other thoughts on this one...

You mentioned the rapture and where Jesus mentions it in these passages. I really do not think he does in these particular passages . Remember that the rapture is called a mystery in 1 cor 15:51. A mystery is something that is newly revealed and not recognized before. The rapture is also mentioned of course in 1 theo 4:13-18 .

 

[ebedmelech]

Yes, I believe that Luke 17 and Matthew 24 , Jesus is speaking about the same event. ( the second coming of Jesus back to earth, being watchful , and the events that will occur before he comes back). I believe that most of these events are directed to the nation of Israel and also the Gentiles who will be living during that period.

When Jesus mentions the days of Noah , people will still be trying to carry on with life even though at times it will be almost impossible because of the wrath on the earth . I really think Jesus was making a comparison to being watchful and not to be taken by surprise.

In my opinion , Matt 24:36 ( no one knows the day or hour) refers to the physical second coming of Jesus back to earth and not the rapture.I know that most people will differ on this one with me. Please let me explain my thoughts . Backing up to verse 30, it says , " And then shall appear the sign of the son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory". We are not told if he will come back instantly or slowly. Maybe they will not actually know the exact day or hour. All they know is that they can see Him coming back. This is Just a thought on my part and is speculation about knowing the day or the hour. Welcoming any other thoughts on this one...

You mentioned the rapture and where Jesus mentions it in these passages. I really do not think he does in these particular passages . Remember that the rapture is called a mystery in 1 cor 15:51. A mystery is something that is newly revealed and not recognized before. The rapture is also mentioned of course in 1 theo 4:13-18 .

The funny part here is Jesus is speaking to the THE DISCIPLES in Luke 17...and here we have people today thinking Jesus was speaking to us.

Now examine Luke 17:22 and note the personal pronouns:
22 And He said to the disciples, “The days will come when you will long to see one of the days of the Son of Man, and you will not see it.
23 They will say to you, ‘Look there! Look here!’ Do not go away, and do not run after them.

The "you" is the disciples...how it can be looked at as 21st century believers is quite astounding.

Second, listen to Jesus identify what time period He means is Luke 17:25:
25 But first He must suffer many things and be rejected by this generation.

So how do they...in THAT GENERATION...become us in this generation???

 

[Bible2]

bibletruth469 said in post 33:

We can not lose our salvation .

Note that the Bible doesn't teach once-saved-always-saved, but shows that initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only "if" they continue in the faith to the end (Hebrews 3:6,12,14, Colossians 1:23). And there's no assurance that they will choose to do that, instead of wrongly employing their free will to depart from the faith, to no longer believe, to commit apostasy (Luke 8:13; 1 Timothy 4:1; 2 Timothy 4:3-4; 2 Thessalonians 2:3, Hebrews 3:12, Matthew 13:21), to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12b, Mark 8:35-38, Hebrews 10:38-39, Matthew 24:9-13).

Also, even if they do continue in the faith, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they also patiently continue to the end in obedience and good works (Romans 2:6-8, James 2:24, Matthew 7:21, Philippians 2:12b; 2 Corinthians 5:9, Hebrews 5:9; 2 Peter 1:10-11, Hebrews 6:10-12, Philippians 3:11-14; 1 John 2:17b), as in works of faith (1 Thessalonians 1:3, Galatians 5:6b, Titus 3:8) (not works of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law). And there's no assurance that they will choose to do that, instead of wrongly employing their free will to become utterly lazy without repentance, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a).

Also, even if they do continue in faith and good works of faith, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they also continue to repent from every sin that they might commit, to the end (Hebrews 10:26-29, 1 Corinthians 9:27, Matthew 7:22-23, Galatians 5:19-21). And there's no assurance that they will choose to do that, instead of wrongly employing their free will to commit unrepentant sin, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Luke 12:45-46; 2 Peter 2:20-22, Romans 8:13; 1 John 5:16, James 5:19-20).

Also, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they get water-immersion (burial) baptized into Jesus' death for our sins (Mark 16:16; 1 Peter 3:21, Romans 6:3-11, Colossians 2:12, Galatians 3:27, Acts 2:38). And there's no assurance that they will choose to do that (cf. Acts 22:16a).

Also, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they partake of the divine flesh and blood of communion (John 6:53, Matthew 26:26-28; 1 Corinthians 10:16; 1 Corinthians 11:27-30). And there's no assurance that they will choose to do that (cf. John 6:60,66).

Also, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they forgive everyone for every wrong (Matthew 6:14-15). And there's no assurance that they will choose to do that (Matthew 18:21-35).

Also, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they do all that they can (Romans 12:18) to make reparations to and peace with everyone whom they've ever wronged (Matthew 5:23-26, cf. Acts 24:16). And there's no assurance that they will choose to do that.

Also, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they help Christians in need (Matthew 25:34-46). And there's no assurance that they will choose to do that (3 John 1:10b).

Also, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they provide for their families (1 Timothy 5:8). And there's no assurance that they will choose to do that.

Also, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they don't commit the unforgivable sin, which is blaspheming the Holy Spirit (Mark 3:29). An example of blaspheming the Holy Spirit is saying that an act performed by the power of the Holy Spirit (e.g. Matthew 12:28) is performed by Satan (Mark 3:22-30). There's no assurance that initially saved people will never choose to say that (cf. 1 Corinthians 14:39b; 1 Thessalonians 5:19).

Also, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they don't remove words from the book of Revelation, and then publish the altered text as if it were the original, without repentance (Revelation 22:19). There's no assurance that they will never choose to do that (cf. 2 Corinthians 4:2).

Also, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they don't worship the future Antichrist and his image, and willingly receive his mark on their right hand or forehead (Revelation 14:9-12, Revelation 13:16-18). There's no assurance that they won't choose to do that (1 Timothy 4:1).

Initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they continue in God's goodness to the end (Romans 11:20-22). And there's no assurance that they will choose to do that (Luke 12:45-46).

Initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they overcome to the end (Revelation 3:5, Revelation 2:11, Revelation 2:26). And there's no assurance that they will choose to do that (Revelation 21:7-8).

All this is said not to engender any unhealthy fear in believers, but the healthy fear which all believers are supposed to have (e.g. Romans 11:20-22).

bibletruth469 said in post 33:

When the rapture happens , age of grace ends.

Regarding the present age (world) ending, note that nothing in Ephesians 1:21b, Titus 2:12, Ephesians 3:1-2, or Hebrews 6:5 says or requires that only the present age is a church age or an age of grace, or that the age to come won't also be a church age and an age of grace. Also, the present age can include the future tribulation (Revelation chapters 6 to 18) and the subsequent millennium (Revelation 20), with the age to come being the subsequent time of the new earth (Revelation 21). For the end of the present age, when all the unsaved will be cast into the lake of fire (Matthew 13:40, Revelation 20:15), won't occur until sometime after the future millennium (Revelation 20:7-15).

bibletruth469 said in post 33:

They will not have the Holy Spirit living inside of them like we have today.

Are you thinking that the Holy Spirit is the restrainer? If so, the restrainer of the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:6-8) could be a powerful, good angel, like the one who will restrain Satan at Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 20:1-3). The restrainer can't be the Holy Spirit, because in the future the restrainer will be removed (2 Thessalonians 2:7b), whereas the Holy Spirit can never be removed because he's always omnipresent (Psalms 139:7-10). Similarly, the restrainer can't be the church, because the church won't be removed (John 17:15,20, Proverbs 10:30). Also, there are now no believers outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-5), and now no one can be a believer without the Spirit (Romans 8:9); and the Antichrist will be allowed to physically overcome believers in every nation (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13), just as the Roman emperors and Satan were allowed to physically overcome believers in the first century AD (e.g. Revelation 2:10).

bibletruth469 said in post 33:

We are saved by grace through faith and it is a free gift of God.

Initial salvation is by grace through faith without any works at all on our part (Romans 4:1-5, Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:5). But other passages show that initially saved people must have both faith and continued works of faith (1 Thessalonians 1:3, Galatians 5:6b, Titus 3:8) (not works of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law), if they're to obtain ultimate salvation (Romans 2:6-8, James 2:24, Matthew 7:21, Matthew 25:26,30, Philippians 2:12b, Philippians 3:11-14; 2 Corinthians 5:9, Hebrews 5:9, Hebrews 6:10-12; 2 Peter 1:10-11, John 15:2a; 1 John 2:17b). For believers must actually continue to do righteous deeds if they're to continue to be righteous (1 John 3:7, James 2:24,26). And there's no assurance that believers will choose to do that, instead of wrongly employing their free will to become utterly lazy without repentance, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a).

bibletruth469 said in post 33:

We are saved by grace through faith and it is a free gift of God.

Note that Romans 6:23 doesn't require once-saved-always-saved, for a free gift can be taken away. For example, imagine that a father gives his young son a puppy as a free gift (cf. Romans 6:23), but warns him that he has to remember to feed and water the puppy every day (cf. Luke 9:23) or it will die (cf. James 2:26). The son says no problem, and takes good care of the puppy for a couple of weeks, but then gets so distracted by playing video games that he forgets to feed or water the puppy for 3 days and it dies. The father then takes the dead puppy away from the son and buries it in the back yard (cf. John 15:2a,6). Does this mean that the puppy wasn't a free gift?

bibletruth469 said in post 33:

The people in the tribulation on will be judged by what they do. Sheep and goat judgement . The believers will not be part of that judgement.

Matthew 25:31 doesn't mean that Matthew 25:32-46 (just as 2 Peter 3:10a doesn't mean that 2 Peter 3:10b) will happen immediately at Jesus' 2nd coming, only that it will happen sometime subsequent to his 2nd coming, at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11-15), after the future millennium and subsequent events are over (Revelation 20:7-15).

Matthew 25:32-46 refers to the "nations" being judged by their works at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:12-13), whereas at the 2nd coming, Jesus will judge only those in the church (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27; Matthew 25:19-30). Also, Matthew 25:41,46 refers to the unsaved being sent (at the time of Matthew 25:41,46) into the everlasting punishment of the lake of fire and brimstone at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:15), whereas at the 2nd coming, only the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) and his False Prophet will be cast into the lake of fire (Revelation 19:20). The saved "sheep" at the sheep/goat judgment would include those who became believers during the millennium (Isaiah 66:19-21). Matthew 25:34 refers to obedient believers inheriting the kingdom of the Father on the new earth in New Jerusalem, the Father's house (Revelation 21:1-7, John 14:2).

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bibletruth469 said in post 38:

Remember that the rapture is called a mystery in 1 cor 15:51. A mystery is something that is newly revealed and not recognized before.

Note that Paul didn't call the rapture itself a mystery, for Jesus had already taught the rapture in the Gospels (John 14:3b, Matthew 24:31, Mark 13:27, cf. 2 Thessalonians 2:1). Instead, the mystery shown in 1 Corinthians 15:51-54 (cf. John 11:26) was the instantaneous changing of living believers into immortal bodies, at the time that dead believers will be resurrected into immortal bodies (1 Corinthians 15:51-54). It's only after this occurs that the rapture (the catching up together/gathering together) of all believers will occur (1 Thessalonians 4:16b-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:30-31, John 14:3b).