Contradictions in the Second Coming

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Time Watcher said in post 34:

He will not be seen by earth dwellers, but they will know that they are under His unmitigated wrath

Note that nothing requires that the entire future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 will be God's wrath, or that any part of the tribulation that will be his wrath will be directed against any of the saved people (1 Thessalonians 5:9) who will still be alive on the earth at that time (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6). Most of the tribulation could be Satan's wrath working through evil people and natural forces to bring disaster on the earth, like when Satan was allowed to work through evil people and natural forces to bring disaster on righteous Job (Job 1:12-20), against whom God had no wrath.

The tribulation's first 5 seals (Revelation 6:1-11) won't be God's wrath or judgment, for after the first 4 seals, the martyrs of the 5th seal ask God when he's going to bring his judgment against the world (Revelation 6:10). And the killing of even more martyrs, which the 5th seal foretells will happen sometime after the 5th seal (Revelation 6:11), won't be God's wrath against those martyrs. So Jesus' unsealing the tribulation's seals (Revelation 6), the tribulation's first stage, doesn't mean that the events unsealed will be God's wrath, but that they will be permitted by God to happen at that time.

The tribulation's 6th seal (Revelation 6:12-14) will happen sometime before the day of the Lord (Joel 2:31, Revelation 6:12), whereas the day of the Lord/Christ (2 Thessalonians 2:2) will begin at his 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 1:7-8; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10), which won't happen until Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8). Similarly, the day of the Lord's wrath (Psalms 110:5) won't begin until Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:19-21).

So the people quoted at the 6th seal (Revelation 6:17), during only the first stage of the tribulation, could be just as mistaken as Job was when Job said that what was happening to him was God's wrath against him (Job 19:11). Just as what was happening to Job was actually Satan's wrath against him, not God's wrath, so the 6th seal could actually be Satan's wrath, not God's wrath. And just as the writer of the book of Job didn't go out of his way to correct Job's mistaken statement in Job 19:11, and just as the apostles John and Matthew didn't go out of their ways to correct the mistaken statements of the people they quoted in John 7:12b and Matthew 27:63a, so the apostle John could have not gone out of his way to correct the statement of the people he quoted in Revelation 6:17.

After the tribulation's 6th seal will occur its 7th seal (Revelation 8:1), out of which will come its 7 trumpets (Revelation 8:1-2). Note that nothing requires that any of the first 6 trumpets' events in Revelation chapters 8 and 9 will be God's wrath. The 5th trumpet's events will be the work of weird locust-like beings from the bottomless pit (Revelation 9:2-10) led by a fallen angel from the bottomless pit (Revelation 9:11). And the 6th trumpet's events to the end of Revelation 9 will be the work of weird horse-like beings led by 4 fallen angels previously bound at the Euphrates (Revelation 9:14-19). So even though good angels of God will sound the first 6 trumpets, this could be announcing God's allowing the wrath of Satan to destroy 1/3 of different things (Revelation 8:7-12, Revelation 9:15,18), just as Satan will subsequently, mid-tribulation, be allowed by God to cause 1/3 of the angels (i.e. his fallen angels) to be cast down to the earth permanently (Revelation 12:4,9).

Revelation chapters 8 and 9 will happen before the Antichrist's (the individual-man aspect of the beast's) future, literal 3.5-year worldwide Luciferian/Satanic reign (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9). And the events in Revelation chapters 8 and 9 could be used by Satan to help prepare the world to welcome that reign. For what he could do is first take great pleasure in causing the destruction in each event, but then claim that the destruction isn't from him, but from YHWH, and that YHWH is a cruel tyrant god who hates mankind and only wants to make it suffer, while he (Satan, as "Lucifer") only wants the best for mankind (cf. Mark 8:33b). In this way, he could deceive the world into turning away from YHWH and instead worshipping him (the dragon) and the Antichrist (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9). The Antichrist will utterly revile YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36).

After the Antichrist's literal 3.5-year reign (Revelation 13:5-7) is declared legally over at the sounding of the tribulation's 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:15), the 7 plagues of the 7 vials of God's wrath will come out of the heavenly-temple opening of the 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:19, Revelation 15:5 to 16:1). The vials will then be poured out on the Antichrist's followers as God's judgment for their receiving the Antichrist's mark and worshipping his image (Revelation 16:2), and for their killing of people in the church (Revelation 16:6-7, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

During the Antichrist's worldwide reign, people in the church will be hated and killed in every nation for refusing to renounce the name of Jesus Christ (Matthew 24:9-13). They will be beheaded for refusing to renounce the witness of Jesus Christ (Revelation 20:4), for refusing to accept the antichrist lies that Jesus himself isn't the Christ (1 John 2:22), and that Christ himself isn't in the flesh (2 John 1:7). They will be beheaded for refusing to renounce the sound doctrine of the Bible, the Word of God (Revelation 20:4; 2 Timothy 3:15 to 4:4), for refusing to depart from the Biblical faith and give heed instead to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils (1 Timothy 4:1-2). They will be beheaded for refusing to worship the Antichrist's image (Revelation 20:4, Revelation 13:15). And all of this will be Satan's wrath against the church (Revelation 12:17), not God's wrath, for the church isn't appointed to God's wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9).

Even when God's wrath comes in the 7 vials (Revelation 16), the tribulation's final stage, because the church isn't appointed to God's wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9), none of the vials will be directed at any of those in the church who will still be alive on the earth at that time, still waiting for Jesus' coming as a thief (Revelation 16:15). Instead, they will go into protective chambers which they will have prepared for themselves on the earth (Isaiah 26:20), just as Noah and his family went into the protective ark which they had prepared for themselves on the earth (Genesis 7:11,13).

Jesus will return right after the 7th and last vial is completed (Revelation 16:17,19, Revelation 19:2-21, Matthew 24:29-30), and he will bring the 2nd-coming wrath of God on the unsaved world (Revelation 19:15-21). But before that 2nd-coming wrath begins, the church will be caught up together/gathered together (raptured) (1 Thessalonians 4:17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:31) into the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17).

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Time Watcher said in post 36:

As long as you do not understand the difference between the Lord's relationship to His national people Israel and to His ecclesia of today, you will not be able to properly render scriptures that refer to the one, or the other ....

Note that all genetic Jews in the church remain members of whichever tribe of Israel they were born into (Romans 11:1, Acts 4:36). And all genetic Gentiles in the church have been grafted into Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29), and so have been grafted into its various tribes (cf. Ezekiel 47:21-23). So the entire church is the 12 tribes of Israel (Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10). This is necessary, for all those in the church are saved only by the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28; 1 Corinthians 11:25; 2 Corinthians 3:6, Hebrews 9:15), and the New Covenant is made only with Israel (Jeremiah 31:31-34, John 4:22b). John 10:16 refers to the "other sheep" of believers who are Gentiles being brought into "this fold" of Israel, which is the same as the "one fold" of the church (1 Corinthians 12:13, Ephesians 4:4-6, Revelation 21:9,12). A genetic Gentile believer can pray and ask which tribe of Israel he has been grafted into, and he will receive an answer from God, if he asks in faith (cf. Matthew 21:22), without any wavering (cf. James 1:6-7).

Also, all those in the church, no matter whether they're genetic Jews (Acts 22:3) or genetic Gentiles (Romans 16:4b), have become spiritually-circumcised Jews if they've undergone the spiritual circumcision of water-immersion (burial) baptism into Jesus (Romans 2:29, Philippians 3:3, Colossians 2:11-13).

Time Watcher said in post 36:

Those of Israel who will survive as mortals at the end of Jacob's coming time of trouble will not be resurrected ....

The time of Jacob's trouble which he will be saved out of (Jeremiah 30:7) won't be the entire future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, but only the final pillaging of the Jews in Jerusalem at the very end of the tribulation, right before Jesus returns and saves them (Zechariah 14:2-5). The church, including Gentile believers (Revelation 7:9,14), will be in the tribulation (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6).
 
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HisSparkPlug said in post 37:

The way I understand it, God is coming TO His people in a very real & very personal way before He comes "for" His people

What are the differences that you're thinking of with regard to "to" and "for"?

Or, did you mean to say that God is coming "for" His people before He comes "with" His people? If so, note that 1 Thessalonians 3:13 and 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 show that at Jesus' 2nd coming, the souls of all obedient dead believers of all times will be brought down from the 3rd heaven with Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:14-15), and their souls will descend to the earth and their bodies will resurrect/rise from their graves (1 Thessalonians 4:16). Then they and all believers who will survive the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 on the earth (those who will still be "alive and remain") will be raptured up high into the air above the places all around the globe where they will be (1 Thessalonians 4:17a), and then they will be gathered together from the sky (the first heaven) all around the globe (Matthew 24:31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1) to the one place in the sky where the returned Jesus will be (1 Thessalonians 4:17b), which will be right above Jerusalem, before he sets his feet on the Mount of Olives (Zechariah 14:4-5, Acts 1:11-12).

It's because of this 2nd-coming rapture into the sky, and then the gathering to where in the sky Jesus will be (and then the marriage of the obedient part of the church there to Jesus: Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-12), that the obedient part of the church will already be with Jesus when he subsequently descends from the sky (the first heaven) to the earth (Revelation 19:14, Revelation 17:14, Zechariah 14:5c,4).
 
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Achilles6129

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When Jesus mentions the days of Noah , people will still be trying to carry on with life even though at times it will be almost impossible because of the wrath on the earth . I really think Jesus was making a comparison to being watchful and not to be taken by surprise.

But that is not the context of Christ's statement. Christ clearly says that people will have no clue that their destruction is upon them - that's the whole point of the correlation between the revealing of the Son of Man and the days of Noah.

In my opinion , Matt 24:36 ( no one knows the day or hour) refers to the physical second coming of Jesus back to earth and not the rapture.I know that most people will differ on this one with me. Please let me explain my thoughts . Backing up to verse 30, it says , " And then shall appear the sign of the son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory". We are not told if he will come back instantly or slowly. Maybe they will not actually know the exact day or hour. All they know is that they can see Him coming back. This is Just a thought on my part and is speculation about knowing the day or the hour. Welcoming any other thoughts on this one...

OK. I think that the passage you quote, Mt. 24:30, is referring to Christ's instantaneous return. Remember we're told Christ will return as quickly as lightning coming from the east and flashing to the west.

You mentioned the rapture and where Jesus mentions it in these passages. I really do not think he does in these particular passages . Remember that the rapture is called a mystery in 1 cor 15:51. A mystery is something that is newly revealed and not recognized before. The rapture is also mentioned of course in 1 theo 4:13-18 .

If these passages are not talking about the rapture (at least, some of them) then Christ's statements are in contradiction with one another. In one set of statements he mentions tranquility before the revelation of the Son of Man. In the other set of statements he mentions a time of great tribulation, so great that everyone on the planet would die had those days not been shortened.
 
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Achilles6129

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Here are the results of a more detailed study between Luke 17 and Matthew 24. Note the many parallels:

"23 They will say to you, ‘Look there!’ or ‘Look here!’ Do not go, do not set off in pursuit." Lu. 17:23 (NRSV)

" 23 Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look! Here is the Messiah!’[e] or ‘There he is!’—do not believe it." Mt. 24:23 (NRSV)

"24 For as the lightning flashes and lights up the sky from one side to the other, so will the Son of Man be in his day." Lu. 17:24 (NRSV)

" 27 For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man." Mt. 24:27 (NRSV)

" 26 Just as it was in the days of Noah, so too it will be in the days of the Son of Man." Lu. 17:26 (NRSV)

" 37 For as the days of Noah were, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. " Mt. 24:37 (NRSV)

"27 They were eating and drinking, and marrying and being given in marriage, until the day Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed all of them." Lu. 17:27 (NRSV)

"38 For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day Noah entered the ark, 39 and they knew nothing until the flood came and swept them all away," Mt. 24:38-39a (NRSV)

"30 —it will be like that on the day that the Son of Man is revealed." Lu. 17:30 (NRSV)

"so too will be the coming of the Son of Man." Mt. 24:39b (NRSV)

" 31 On that day, anyone on the housetop who has belongings in the house must not come down to take them away; and likewise anyone in the field must not turn back." Lu. 17:31 (NRSV)

"17 the one on the housetop must not go down to take what is in the house; 18 the one in the field must not turn back to get a coat." Mt. 24:17-18 (NRSV)

" 34 I tell you, on that night there will be two in one bed; one will be taken and the other left." Lu. 17:34 (NRSV)

" 40 Then two will be in the field; one will be taken and one will be left." Mt. 24:40 (NRSV)

" 35 There will be two women grinding meal together; one will be taken and the other left." Lu. 17:35 (NRSV)

" 41 Two women will be grinding meal together; one will be taken and one will be left." Mt. 24:41 (NRSV)

" 37 Then they asked him, “Where, Lord?” He said to them, “Where the corpse is, there the vultures will gather.”" Lu. 17:37 (NRSV)

"28 Wherever the corpse is, there the vultures will gather." Mt. 24:28 (NRSV)

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We can obviously see from above that there are numerous parallels between Luke 17 and Matthew 24 which make it clear that they are referring to the same events. The question now is - precisely which events? It is my hypothesis that the revealing of the Son of Man (in this case, the rapture) will take place when the abomination of desolation is set up in the rebuilt Jewish temple. I base this hypothesis off of the following passages:

"30 —it will be like that on the day that the Son of Man is revealed. 31On that day, anyone on the housetop who has belongings in the house must not come down to take them away; and likewise anyone in the field must not turn back." Lu. 17:30-31 (NRSV)

"15 “So when you see the desolating sacrilege standing in the holy place, as was spoken of by the prophet Daniel (let the reader understand), 16 then those in Judea must flee to the mountains; 17 the one on the housetop must not go down to take what is in the house; 18 the one in the field must not turn back to get a coat." Mt. 24:15-18 (NRSV)

Note the parallels between 17:31 and 24:17-18. Now, in 24:15 the abomination of desolation is described. In 17:30 Christ's return in described. This, in my opinion, is powerful evidence that the "day the Son of Man is revealed" is when the abomination of desolation is set up in the rebuilt Jewish temple.

Now look at what follows in Luke 17:32-33:

"32 Remember Lot’s wife. 33 Those who try to make their life secure will lose it, but those who lose their life will keep it." Lu. 17:32-33 (NRSV)

The passage in v.33 is cryptic if Christ is talking about his physical return as described in Revelation 19 - why would there be any further instructions for his followers if he were talking about his actual physical return? And why would he be exhorting them to give up their lives? However, the remark does make perfect sense when juxtaposed with the worship of the image of the beast in the book of Revelation:

"15 and it was allowed to give breath[f] to the image of the beast so that the image of the beast could even speak and cause those who would not worship the image of the beast to be killed." Rev. 13:15 (NRSV)

The remark in v.33 thus is completely senseless if the actual physical return of Christ is in view - Christ's followers would already be with him at that point, thus there would be no need for further instructions. However, it would make sense if Christ were exhorting his followers not to worship the image of the beast in Revelation. So the sequence of events would be thus:

Abomination of desolation set up in Jewish temple---> Son of Man revealed to rapture his faithful followers----> death for anyone who does not worship the image of the beast---->physical return of Son of Man to planet earth in Revelation 19.

That is my working hypothesis thus far.
 
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Achilles6129

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While we're on the subject of the Second Coming, I just wanted to list those passages where "thief" is found to make it clear how the allusion is used:

"43 But understand this: if the owner of the house had known in what part of the night the thief was coming, he would have stayed awake and would not have let his house be broken into. 44 Therefore you also must be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an unexpected hour." Mt. 24:43-44 (NRSV)

"35 “Be dressed for action and have your lamps lit; 36 be like those who are waiting for their master to return from the wedding banquet, so that they may open the door for him as soon as he comes and knocks. 37 Blessed are those slaves whom the master finds alert when he comes; truly I tell you, he will fasten his belt and have them sit down to eat, and he will come and serve them. 38 If he comes during the middle of the night, or near dawn, and finds them so, blessed are those slaves.
39 “But know this: if the owner of the house had known at what hour the thief was coming, he[g] would not have let his house be broken into. 40 You also must be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an unexpected hour.”" Lu. 12:35-40 (NRSV)

"Now concerning the times and the seasons, brothers and sisters,[a] you do not need to have anything written to you. 2 For you yourselves know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3 When they say, “There is peace and security,” then sudden destruction will come upon them, as labor pains come upon a pregnant woman, and there will be no escape! 4 But you, beloved,[b] are not in darkness, for that day to surprise you like a thief; 5 for you are all children of light and children of the day; we are not of the night or of darkness." 1 Th. 5:1-5 (NRSV)

" 3 First of all you must understand this, that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and indulging their own lusts 4 and saying, “Where is the promise of his coming? For ever since our ancestors died,[a] all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation!” 5 They deliberately ignore this fact, that by the word of God heavens existed long ago and an earth was formed out of water and by means of water, 6 through which the world of that time was deluged with water and perished. 7 But by the same word the present heavens and earth have been reserved for fire, being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of the godless.
8 But do not ignore this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like one day. 9 The Lord is not slow about his promise, as some think of slowness, but is patient with you,[b] not wanting any to perish, but all to come to repentance. 10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a loud noise, and the elements will be dissolved with fire, and the earth and everything that is done on it will be disclosed." 2 Pet. 3:3-10 (NRSV)

This next passage has strong links to Luke 12:35-40:

" 3 Remember then what you received and heard; obey it, and repent. If you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what hour I will come to you." Rev. 3:3 (NRSV)

Now, this passage is very interesting because Christ is talking to the church of Sardis here. This proves conclusively that the metaphor of "thief" can be used to refer to distinctly different comings of Christ. It is obvious that the church of Sardis is no longer around, and even if it does refer to the church universal it is obvious that many have died (fallen asleep) in the meantime. Christ's statement that he will come like a thief in Rev. 3:3, then, must mean some sort of spiritual coming in judgment. The important part is that this verse proves that the "thief" metaphor need not be restricted to the physical Second Coming.

So if the "thief" metaphor need not be restricted to the physical Second Coming, why can't it also refer to Christ's revelation at the rapture?

"15 (“See, I am coming like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake and is clothed,[a] not going about naked and exposed to shame.”) " Rev. 16:15 (NRSV)

These are all the passages where the "thief" metaphor is used in context of Christ's return. I have only drawn some provisional conclusions from them thus far and am not completely done studying them. Any insights, of course, would be appreciated.

I would tentatively conclude that the references to "thief" do not all refer to the physical Second Coming (remember Rev. 3:3!). I would say that the metaphor can also refer to Christ's revelation at the rapture as well as the Second Coming. So basically, whenever Christ comes he comes as a thief - whether it be a spiritual coming in judgment, the rapture, or a physical return to the planet.
 
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Achilles6129

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One final note before I sign off for the evening. Over and over again throughout the eschatological discourses we are warned of the unexpected nature of Christ's return (e.g., Mk. 13:32-37, Mt. 25:1-13, many other passages). I find these warnings to be extremely interesting and they may provide further clues for Christ's return.
 
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Anto9us

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Luke 17:37 "taken/left"

sounds like TAKEN is "not a good thing"
when disciples ask WHERE - we get the cryptic "where the corpse is - there will the vultures be gathered"

doesn't sound like a GOOD "taking up" in a rapture
 
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bibletruth469

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Hi Achilles,

There's a lot of information to go through! This is what I call a good bible study!

Well, first of all you are right, Matt 24:27" ...lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall the coming of the son of man be". This seems pretty fast to me also. I still think that we are not for sure that we will know the exact day or hour of His second coming after the tribulation , however it will be very fast. There are several day or hour verses. One is Matt 24:36," but of that day or hour knoweth no man ..." We must look at the context of this scripture . Jesus immediately says in the very next verse 37', " but in the days of Noe were , so shall the coming of the son of man be..." I believe these are both referring to the same time frame( Jesus coming back to earth ).

As for the days before the flood in verse 38..." They were eating and drinking ...and knew not until the flood came , and took them all away; so shall also be the forming of the son of man be". In my opinion, it could be speaking of a general time frame here and not necessarily the same day; it could be years. So I do not see a contradiction.

Next, we move into the judgement verse 39-42 ' one taken and one left' . This is not a rapture verse but it speaks about judgement. One is taken away for the judgement of the unrighteous while the other left will repopulate the 1000 year kingdom. Verse 42 ends with " watch ..ye know not what hour your lord doth come". The people do not know exactly when they will be judged.

You mentioned the abomination of desolation . We need to go back to do a full study on the book of Daniel to get a clear picture. This refers only to the Jews and not anyone else. It can't refer to the rapture. This happens at the 3 1/2 year mark into the seven year tribulation . This is another bible study in itself .

Yes, Matt 24 and Luke 17 are parallel chapters

Revelation 19 is all about the church .

I think that may be it for tonight!

God bless,
LW
 
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tranquil

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Note the parallels between 17:31 and 24:17-18. Now, in 24:15 the abomination of desolation is described. In 17:30 Christ's return in described. This, in my opinion, is powerful evidence that the "day the Son of Man is revealed" is when the abomination of desolation is set up in the rebuilt Jewish temple.

Now look at what follows in Luke 17:32-33:

"32 Remember Lot’s wife. 33 Those who try to make their life secure will lose it, but those who lose their life will keep it." Lu. 17:32-33 (NRSV)

The passage in v.33 is cryptic if Christ is talking about his physical return as described in Revelation 19 - why would there be any further instructions for his followers if he were talking about his actual physical return? And why would he be exhorting them to give up their lives? However, the remark does make perfect sense when juxtaposed with the worship of the image of the beast in the book of Revelation:

"15 and it was allowed to give breath[f] to the image of the beast so that the image of the beast could even speak and cause those who would not worship the image of the beast to be killed." Rev. 13:15 (NRSV)

The remark in v.33 thus is completely senseless if the actual physical return of Christ is in view - Christ's followers would already be with him at that point, thus there would be no need for further instructions. However, it would make sense if Christ were exhorting his followers not to worship the image of the beast in Revelation. So the sequence of events would be thus:

Abomination of desolation set up in Jewish temple---> Son of Man revealed to rapture his faithful followers----> death for anyone who does not worship the image of the beast---->physical return of Son of Man to planet earth in Revelation 19.

That is my working hypothesis thus far.

The abomination of desolation is set up in the Jewish "Temple" (it is not a temple - it is the state of Israel and the US.)

Bad sheep take the mark of the beast, this is how they "try to save their lives". Good sheep go into the wilderness, where they will be gathered. The mark of the beast is the means by which "good sheep" are separated from "bad sheep". That's God's judgment - YOU get to choose heaven or hell. Brilliant.

The Goats and the deceived bad sheep that have taken the mark of the beast attack the good sheep who are living in the wilderness. (IOW, those who are "raptured"/ gathered in the wilderness are the saints being killed, not all of whom will be killed, of course.)

Christ comes to take the Philadelphia church that is in the wilderness, to a place of safety.

The antichrist is revealed to be a fraud at the end of 1260 days. Any deceived "bad sheep" that were too lazy or not mature enough to be part of the "1st (spiritual) resurrection" are to go into the wilderness. The goats will stick with the revealed antichrist beast because they are evil. The antichrist being revealed is the manner by which "bad sheep" are separated from the goats. They will have no king until they have tested one last time. The "bad sheep" will be divided here into good sheep and bad sheep (Armageddon).
 
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bibletruth469

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tranquil said:
The abomination of desolation is set up in the Jewish "Temple" (it is not a temple - it is the state of Israel and the US.) Bad sheep take the mark of the beast, this is how they "try to save their lives". Good sheep go into the wilderness, where they will be gathered. The mark of the beast is the means by which "good sheep" are separated from "bad sheep". That's God's judgment - YOU get to choose heaven or hell. Brilliant. The Goats and the deceived bad sheep that have taken the mark of the beast attack the good sheep who are living in the wilderness. (IOW, those who are "raptured"/ gathered in the wilderness are the saints being killed, not all of whom will be killed, of course.) Christ comes to take the Philadelphia church that is in the wilderness, to a place of safety. The antichrist is revealed to be a fraud at the end of 1260 days. Any deceived "bad sheep" that were too lazy or not mature enough to be part of the "1st (spiritual) resurrection" are to go into the wilderness. The goats will stick with the revealed antichrist beast because they are evil. The antichrist being revealed is the manner by which "bad sheep" are separated from the goats. They will have no king until they have tested one last time. The "bad sheep" will be divided here into good sheep and bad sheep (Armageddon).

How do you get good sheep and bad sheep? That's not found in scripture . This thread is not about the mark of the beast. It us about the second coming of Christ . Please keep to the subject.
 
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bibletruth469

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There are two main facets of the second coming of Christ. One is the rapture when the believers meet Christ . The other is when we come back with Christ to the earth to rule and reign with Him for the 1000 years. These are 2 separate events. Many people mention that the day and the hour verses are only for the rapture. Why can't it be either, or or both depending on the particular verse and the context?

Also, the word 'thief' in the scripture can either be interpreted as judgement or a surprise event depending on how the word is used. I think that a comparison is being made for people to understand how The Lord will come back and that it will be quickly and one must be ready.

There is another very important facet to The Lord 's coming and that's the nation of Israel. At the 3 1/2 year point when the evil image is set up in the temple( abomination of desolation ) the Jews are told to flee or they will not escape. I believe that they will flee( a remnant ) to Petra to be protected from the Antichrist for the remaining of the tribulation until The Lord comes back. These are the elect.

The nations will also be judged at the time of the second coming. This is where the sheep and goat judgement happens. ( when Christ comes back to earth, not the rapture).

In conclusion, I do not see any contradictions of the second coming of Christ in the scripture . One just has to study the context and look at other places in the bible including the old testament for clarification and interpretation . One must take the scripture in a literal context or it will not make sence.
 
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There are no contradictions

Simple and straight forward:

The Lord will intervene suddenly as a "thief", no signs, no warning .... and earth dwellers will not see Him

He will call His ecclesia [all of them from the beginning of human creation, both the dead and the living]

At the very same time [moment] He will begin His hour [time] of trial and judgment upon an unbelieving world .... this period will last for 2550 days [1260 + 1260 + 30] .... the 70th week decreed for Israel, and 30 days for the battle of Armageddon

He will be present in all of this, but the earth dwellers will not see Him .... just like today .... He is omnipresent in His creation and can appear an disappear at will

What He can and will do is "intervene" in the affairs of men directly when He chooses to do so [His "coming" is this intervention] .... at present He is waiting and watching [Revelation 5:6] ... He sees all things

[He is not in some far far away place in His universe and unaware of what is going on here on the earth]

We have evidence that He will be active in the process of the 2550 days of His judgments in Revelation's unfolding .... He will execute and control all of the judgments ... and He will lead the 144000 of the children of Israel [the first believers of the tribulation period] as they witness during the 2550 days to His soon coming millennial kingdom at the end of the period

He will then appear visibly on the earth to all of the mortal survivors just after those days of the tribulation

The next 45 days:

He first action will be to gather the surviving mortals of Israel [who will all be believers]

.... and these will enter and populate His millennial kingdom on the earth as mortals

He will then gather the mortal survivors of the nations of the Gentiles and separate them

All found believing and who favored His kin [His brethren] of His nation of Israel during the tribulation will enter and populate His millennial kingdom on the earth as mortals

Those Gentiles found in unbelief and unaccommodating to His brethren of Israel during the tribulation will be rejected and will not enter His millennial kingdom

There are no resurrections of anyone related to these gatherings

And His pre-tribulation ecclesia [those on thrones] and those martyred [beheaded] during the tribulation and resurrected at the end of the 2550 days will rule with Him over His millennial kingdom of mortals for 1000 years [Satan will be totally restrained during the 1000 years]

The Satan will be released to cause another rebellion of the nations at the ending of the 1000 years [symbolically referred to as "gog" [Satan], and "magog" [the rebelling nations] .... a repeating of the earlier battle of Armageddon] [Ezekiel 38; 39; Revelation 14: 14-20; 16:1-16; 19:11-21]

The Lord will quickly put down the rebels and Satan will be destroyed .... then all of the spirits of the unbelieving human dead from the beginning of human creation [the tares] will judged and will face the second death

Next .... the beginning of His eternal kingdom which will have no ending and will include all of His immortal ecclesia [the wheat]
 
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bibletruth469 said in post 51:

I think that a comparison is being made for people to understand how The Lord will come back and that it will be quickly and one must be ready.

Are you saying that there will be only a partial rapture of the church, sometime before the 2nd coming, of only those in the church who are ready for the rapture? If so, note that nothing in scripture requires that the entire church won't be raptured at the time of Matthew 24:31, 2 Thessalonians 2:1, and 1 Thessalonians 4:17, which is the time of Jesus' 2nd coming, immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17). The need for believers to be ready for Jesus' 2nd coming (Matthew 24:44, Matthew 25:10) doesn't have to do with whether or not they will be raptured at that time, but with whether or not they will lose their salvation at that time (e.g. Luke 12:45-46, Matthew 25:26,30, Mark 8:35-38).
 
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Time Watcher said in post 52:

The Lord will intervene suddenly as a "thief", no signs, no warning .... and earth dwellers will not see Him

The mistaken pre-tribulation rapture view feels that 1 Thessalonians 5:2 supports the idea of an imminent, pre-tribulation, secret coming of Jesus to rapture the church and begin the tribulation. But not all thieves in the night come secretly, like cat burglars. Some like to rob homes via what's called a home invasion, which is quite obvious and can involve the thieves not only stealing, but also killing and destroying (John 10:10; 2 Thessalonians 1:8-10, Revelation 19:7-21).

Jesus' coming as a thief in the night (1 Thessalonians 5:2, Matthew 24:43-44, Revelation 16:15) doesn't mean that he will come quietly or secretly. "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God" (1 Thessalonians 4:16), "with a great sound of a trumpet" (Matthew 24:31). And "as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be" (Matthew 24:27,43,44). "Behold, I come as a thief" (Revelation 16:15), "Behold, he cometh with clouds [1 Thessalonians 4:17]; and every eye shall see him" (Revelation 1:7).

Similarly, Jesus' coming as a thief in the night doesn't mean that his coming is imminent. For he can't come until immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

Jesus' 2nd coming as a thief in the night (1 Thessalonians 5:2) means that he will come the 2nd time upon even Christians when they aren't expecting him only if they stop watching (staying awake, spiritually) during the tribulation. Compare the if principle of Revelation 3:3. Also, some in the church will still be alive on the earth during the tribulation's final stage, still waiting for Jesus' 2nd coming as a thief (Revelation 16:15). So his 2nd coming won't overtake them like a thief (1 Thessalonians 5:4, Matthew 24:43).

Regarding Jesus 2nd coming as a thief to the unsaved world, when it isn't expecting him (1 Thessalonians 5:2-4, Matthew 24:39), nothing requires that the unsaved world will be expecting Jesus' 2nd coming after the tribulation. For during the tribulation, the unsaved world could come to believe that his 2nd coming has already happened (Matthew 24:24-26).

-

The unsaved people of the world will have no idea that most of them are going to be killed at Jesus' 2nd coming until it happens (Matthew 24:37-39). For they could think that the 2nd coming had already occurred with the coming into power of the Antichrist's miracle-working False Prophet (Revelation 13:13-14, Revelation 19:20), who could claim to be Jesus returned. And just as the people of the world shortly before Noah's flood, even though they could see or hear about Noah building his huge ark, no doubt rejected the idea that YHWH had the power to actually cause a global flood which would kill them, so the people of the world at the end of the future tribulation could reject the idea that YHWH has the power to actually defeat them.

For during the tribulation's 2nd half, the world will see the power of Lucifer (Satan, the dragon) and his fallen angels (Revelation 12:9), and the power Lucifer will give to the Antichrist to take over the entire earth (Revelation 13:4-8), and to utterly revile YHWH year after year without being destroyed (Revelation 13:5-6, Daniel 11:36), and to physically overcome and kill people in the church in every nation (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13). And the world will see the amazing miraculous powers that Lucifer will give to the Antichrist's False Prophet, by which he will be able to even call fire down from heaven in the sight of everyone (Revelation 13:13, cf. 2 Thessalonians 2:9).

And near the end of the future tribulation, the world will see the Antichrist's defeat of YHWH's amazingly-powerful two witnesses (Revelation 11:3-9), after which defeat the world will rejoice and make merry and send gifts to each other because the two witnesses had been sending plagues on the world (Revelation 11:10,6). And even though those plagues will be shortly followed by even more plagues from YHWH, poured out directly from heaven (Revelation 16, the tribulation's final stage), the people of the world won't lose their confidence that YHWH can still be defeated. For after almost all of the plagues from heaven are over, the world will see the awesome miraculous powers of some unclean spirits, convincing the world's armies to gather together for a battle against YHWH (Revelation 16:13-14, Revelation 19:19). And so the world could come to that battle at the very end of the tribulation with the same careless attitude as some people at the start of the American Civil War, who held picnics at the expected first battleground of Bull Run/Manassas to watch the battle and what they expected to be a quick and easy victory.

Time Watcher said in post 52:

At the very same time [moment] He will begin His hour [time] of trial and judgment upon an unbelieving world ....

Regarding the "hour [time] of trial" (Revelation 3:10), the 7 epistles to 7 churches in Revelation chapters 2-3 were sent to 7 literal, first century AD local church congregations in 7 cities in the Roman province of "Asia" (Revelation 1:11) (what's today western Turkey).

Revelation 3:10 meant that the literal, first century AD local church congregation in the city of Philadelphia (Revelation 3:7) in the Roman province of "Asia" (Revelation 1:11) would be kept safe from a persecution which came upon all the Roman world during the time of the Roman emperor Domitian. For the apostle John saw his Revelation vision (Revelation 1:1) near the end of Domitian's reign (Irenaeus, Against Heresies 5:30:3c), and Domitian persecuted the church toward the end of his reign. The righteous, literal, first century AD local church congregation in the city of Smyrna (Revelation 2:8) in the Roman province of "Asia" (Revelation 1:11) had to suffer and die in that persecution over a period of 10 literal days (Revelation 2:10).

The first century AD church in Philadelphia didn't have to be taken out of the world to be kept safe from (Greek: "ek") that persecution. For, as Jesus prayed for the church in general: "I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from (ek) the evil" (John 17:15,20). Also, the first century AD church in Philadelphia didn't have to be removed from time itself, or from the earth, in order to be kept from the "hour" (or the "time") of that persecution, just as, for example, a student in a classroom who has been excused from taking a test doesn't have to be removed from time itself, or from the classroom, in order to be excused from that time of testing. For he can be made to sit at his desk reading during that time, which won't be a time of testing for him.

Also, the first century AD persecution of Revelation 3:10 (and Revelation 2:10) was only "world"-wide in the sense of the Roman "world" (cf. Luke 2:1). So the subsequent reference to those on the "earth" in Revelation 3:10 should be understood as those Christians living on the earth during that time in the Roman Empire, as opposed to those Christians who had already died and gone to heaven (cf. 2 Corinthians 5:8, Philippians 1:21,23).

Time Watcher said in post 52:

At the very same time [moment] He will begin His hour [time] of trial and judgment upon an unbelieving world ....

Regarding "judgment upon an unbelieving world", see the first section of post 41.

Time Watcher said in post 52:

... and He will lead the 144000 of the children of Israel . . .

The 144,000 will all be Christians (Revelation 14:1,4), and so they will all be part of the church (cf. Ephesians 4:4-6). They will be the firstfruits of the church (Revelation 14:4) in the sense of its best part (cf. Numbers 18:12). They will be male virgins (Revelation 14:4), who could all have been born in the 20th or 21st century, and who could all already be part of the church. For they will all be alive on the earth, and will all already be God's servants (Revelation 7:3; cf. Romans 6:22, Philippians 1:1), by the time of Revelation 7:3-8 (during the first stage of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24). They will have entered the tribulation along with the rest of the church alive at that time, for there will be no pre-tribulation rapture (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

The 144,000 can include both Jews and Gentiles in the church, for the reasons given in the 2nd section of post 41.

The tribe of Dan is missing from the list of the 144,000's twelve tribes (Revelation 7:4-8; there, "Joseph" stands for Ephraim: Numbers 1:32, Psalms 78:67, Ezekiel 37:16b,19) because the Israel they're from isn't genetic Israel with its 12 genetic tribes which include Dan (Genesis 49:28,17), but rather spiritual Israel (Romans 9:6-8), which consists of all the elect (Romans 9:11-13), both elect Jews and elect Gentiles (Romans 9:24).
 
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There are two main facets of the second coming of Christ. One is the rapture when the believers meet Christ . The other is when we come back with Christ to the earth to rule and reign with Him for the 1000 years. These are 2 separate events. Many people mention that the day and the hour verses are only for the rapture. Why can't it be either, or or both depending on the particular verse and the context?

Also, the word 'thief' in the scripture can either be interpreted as judgement or a surprise event depending on how the word is used. I think that a comparison is being made for people to understand how The Lord will come back and that it will be quickly and one must be ready.

There is another very important facet to The Lord 's coming and that's the nation of Israel. At the 3 1/2 year point when the evil image is set up in the temple( abomination of desolation ) the Jews are told to flee or they will not escape. I believe that they will flee( a remnant ) to Petra to be protected from the Antichrist for the remaining of the tribulation until The Lord comes back. These are the elect.

The nations will also be judged at the time of the second coming. This is where the sheep and goat judgement happens. ( when Christ comes back to earth, not the rapture).

In conclusion, I do not see any contradictions of the second coming of Christ in the scripture . One just has to study the context and look at other places in the bible including the old testament for clarification and interpretation . One must take the scripture in a literal context or it will not make sence.

That is why I called them "apparent" contradictions. Once we realize that He is coming more than once, all the apparent contradictions disappear.
 
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Agreed

And actually the Lord will intervene [you say "come"] only "once" to begin His proccess of "the day of the Lord" [His day]

In this order:

Immortalize His ecclesia, judge the unbelieving world, and then appear on the earth just
after, rule His earthly kingdom, and then bring His eternal kingdom

He has not planned "two" different "comings" .... do you see this?

Those who reject His first action above will exploit the idea of "two" different "comings"

..... and then say only "one", but at the end of the tribulation

And then they will say that His hour [time] of trial and judgment is not His hour [time] of trial and judgment, and that it is His "wrath" that comes at the end of it along with a post-tribulation "rapture" on the same day

There is no difference between His hour [time] of trial and His wrath, both the same

This is a bogus idea built in by the post-tribulation thinking ruse

So I am suggesting that you teach only "one" next intervention which will include His continued actions [2550 days of His wrath] .... up to and including His appearance after the tribulation

.... He does not "leave the building" and go somewhere while His judgment proceeds on the earth [He will personally execute this, but not seen by earth dwellers], and then appear at the ending of the same

Do not give the post-tribulation thinkers an excuse
 
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bibletruth469

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To b2: I never said there is a partial rapture of the Chuch . This can NOT be found in scripture . The rapture of ALL believers will take place before the tribulation . Then the rest of the people will have to go through it. I disputed partial rapture theory in one other thread and how it is not true!
 
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We are given two different pictures of events in these passages. In one, there is a tranquil time where the Son of Man suddenly appears and disaster ensues. In the other, we have people literally fainting from fear of the things coming on the earth, and then the Son of Man appears ... Christ claims that they will "know nothing" until "the coming of the Son of Man." But how could that be the case if Luke 21 and Revelation 16 are to happen?

The closest I can come to reconciling these blatant discrepancies is to posit that one set of passages refers to the rapture and the other set of passages refers to the physical coming of Christ to return to the planet. But there are still problems. For example, in each set of passages the allusion to the "thief" is used, which makes it difficult to dismiss the fact that they may be talking about the same event.

I have been puzzled by these contradictions for a long while. The dilemma is difficult. Thoughts?
I see no difficulty.

1. The vast majority of people are asleep (not "awake" to His Word, His truth, and His warnings); these are the unrighteous.
2. Even though He progressively gives signs in the heavens, earth, and seas, these unrighteous ones are still asleep. They will fear these events, but they will likely attribute these signs to natural circumstances to explain them away. They continue with their life on earth as usual, eating and drinking, buying and selling, planting and building. (Lk 17:26-30 does not say it was a tranquil time, just that they continued with life as usual.) Therefore "they know nothing".
3. So, from the perspective of the unrighteous, He returns as a "thief in the night" to steal what they believe is theirs.
4. However, to the righteous, they "stayed awake", attentive to YHVH's signs, walking in truth, repentance, and obedience. They are constantly prepared for Messiah's return on Yom Teurah.

Is this not the case even today? There is recent, huge increase in signs in the heavens, earth, and seas, yet most people (even self-professed Christians) are ignorant of it all.
 
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I see no difficulty.

1. The vast majority of people are asleep (not "awake" to His Word, His truth, and His warnings); these are the unrighteous.
2. Even though He progressively gives signs in the heavens, earth, and seas, these unrighteous ones are still asleep. They will fear these events, but they will likely attribute these signs to natural circumstances to explain them away. They continue with their life on earth as usual, eating and drinking, buying and selling, planting and building. (Lk 17:26-30 does not say it was a tranquil time, just that they continued with life as usual.) Therefore "they know nothing".
3. So, from the perspective of the unrighteous, He returns as a "thief in the night" to steal what they believe is theirs.
4. However, to the righteous, they "stayed awake", attentive to YHVH's signs, walking in truth, repentance, and obedience. They are constantly prepared for Messiah's return on Yom Teurah.

Is this not the case even today? There is recent, huge increase in signs in the heavens, earth, and seas, yet most people (even self-professed Christians) are ignorant of it all.

Interesting perspective :D

If the entire ocean turned into blood, do you believe people would think the return of Christ was near?

How could people buy/sell/plant/build/marry/give in marriage during the judgments of the book of Revelation? Those judgments would destroy the entire planet.
 
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