Contradictions in the Second Coming

[Achilles6129]

One of the major problems with eschatology is that the passages involved often seem to contradict one another. For example, we have a wealth of information about the Second Coming of Christ in the Bible. Christ, Peter, Paul, Revelation, and even the Old Testament have many passages on the subject. The problem is that when we add them all together they do not seem to fit into a coherent picture. Let me give an example.

" 26 Just as it was in the days of Noah, so too it will be in the days of the Son of Man. 27 They were eating and drinking, and marrying and being given in marriage, until the day Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed all of them. 28 Likewise, just as it was in the days of Lot: they were eating and drinking, buying and selling, planting and building, 29 but on the day that Lot left Sodom, it rained fire and sulfur from heaven and destroyed all of them 30 —it will be like that on the day that the Son of Man is revealed." Lu. 17:26-30 (NRSV)

"25 “There will be signs in the sun, the moon, and the stars, and on the earth distress among nations confused by the roaring of the sea and the waves. 26 People will faint from fear and foreboding of what is coming upon the world, for the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 27 Then they will see ‘the Son of Man coming in a cloud’ with power and great glory. " Lu. 21:25-27 (NRSV)

We are given two different pictures of events in these passages. In one, there is a tranquil time where the Son of Man suddenly appears and disaster ensues. In the other, we have people literally fainting from fear of the things coming on the earth, and then the Son of Man appears. It is obvious that the two passages cannot be talking about the same event. Again:

" 10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a loud noise, and the elements will be dissolved with fire, and the earth and everything that is done on it will be disclosed." 2 Pet. 3:10 (NRSV0

This is a clear reference to the unexpected nature of the day Christ returns (the day of the Lord). If it is coming like a thief, then obviously no-one knows when it will arrive - it is completely unexpected, just like a thief in the night (the same allusion Christ/Paul use).

The allusion clearly means that even the time is completely unexpected. You do not prepare for a thief in the night - he simply breaks in at a completely unexpected hour when you are sound asleep. If you would have known he was coming, you would have watched. The problem with the allusion is this:

"Then I heard a loud voice from the temple telling the seven angels, “Go and pour out on the earth the seven bowls of the wrath of God.”
2 So the first angel went and poured his bowl on the earth, and a foul and painful sore came on those who had the mark of the beast and who worshiped its image.
3 The second angel poured his bowl into the sea, and it became like the blood of a corpse, and every living thing in the sea died.
4 The third angel poured his bowl into the rivers and the springs of water, and they became blood. 5 And I heard the angel of the waters say,
“You are just, O Holy One, who are and were,
for you have judged these things;
6 because they shed the blood of saints and prophets,
you have given them blood to drink.
It is what they deserve!”

7 And I heard the altar respond,
“Yes, O Lord God, the Almighty,
your judgments are true and just!”

8 The fourth angel poured his bowl on the sun, and it was allowed to scorch people with fire; 9 they were scorched by the fierce heat, but they cursed the name of God, who had authority over these plagues, and they did not repent and give him glory.
10 The fifth angel poured his bowl on the throne of the beast, and its kingdom was plunged into darkness; people gnawed their tongues in agony, 11 and cursed the God of heaven because of their pains and sores, and they did not repent of their deeds.
12 The sixth angel poured his bowl on the great river Euphrates, and its water was dried up in order to prepare the way for the kings from the east. 13 And I saw three foul spirits like frogs coming from the mouth of the dragon, from the mouth of the beast, and from the mouth of the false prophet. 14 These are demonic spirits, performing signs, who go abroad to the kings of the whole world, to assemble them for battle on the great day of God the Almighty. 15 (“See, I am coming like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake and is clothed,[a] not going about naked and exposed to shame.&#8221 16 And they assembled them at the place that in Hebrew is called Harmagedon." Rev. 16:1-16 (NRSV)

Now here's the huge problem. After the terrible bowl judgments - right near the end of the book of Revelation - Christ claims he is coming like a thief!! But if these judgments are to be taken literally, how could this be the case? Indeed, if the passage I quoted in Luke 21 is to be taken literally, then how could this possibly be the case?

Then we have this very interesting passage in Matthew to add to the pot:

"36 “But about that day and hour no one knows, neither the angels of heaven, nor the Son,[h] but only the Father. 37 For as the days of Noah were, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 38 For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day Noah entered the ark, 39 and they knew nothing until the flood came and swept them all away, so too will be the coming of the Son of Man. 40 Then two will be in the field; one will be taken and one will be left. 41 Two women will be grinding meal together; one will be taken and one will be left. 42 Keep awake therefore, for you do not know on what day[i] your Lord is coming. 43 But understand this: if the owner of the house had known in what part of the night the thief was coming, he would have stayed awake and would not have let his house be broken into. 44 Therefore you also must be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an unexpected hour." Mt. 24:36-44 (NRSV)

If we juxtapose this passage with Revelation 16 we see that they simply have to be talking about different things. Notice that the metaphor of "thief" is used in each (most interesting). This passage seems to be along the same lines as the passage in Luke 17. Christ claims that they will "know nothing" until "the coming of the Son of Man." But how could that be the case if Luke 21 and Revelation 16 are to happen?

The closest I can come to reconciling these blatant discrepancies is to posit that one set of passages refers to the rapture and the other set of passages refers to the physical coming of Christ to return to the planet. But there are still problems. For example, in each set of passages the allusion to the "thief" is used, which makes it difficult to dismiss the fact that they may be talking about the same event.

I have been puzzled by these contradictions for a long while. The dilemma is difficult. Thoughts?

 

[dfw69]

I believe the day of The Lord is a metaphor for a specific time period... Many events take place within many days it's clear

Same with thief in the night ... It's not one particular day ..though on a specific day he actually come ..but that at a appointed time these events overcome them and take them by surprise not ever expecting the events of prophecy to actually happen...they were in disbelief and when the time comes they will be surprised that the New Testament prophecies were true

 

[miamited]

One of the major problems with eschatology is that the passages involved often seem to contradict one another. For example, we have a wealth of information about the Second Coming of Christ in the Bible. Christ, Peter, Paul, Revelation, and even the Old Testament have many passages on the subject. The problem is that when we add them all together they do not seem to fit into a coherent picture. Let me give an example.

" 26 Just as it was in the days of Noah, so too it will be in the days of the Son of Man. 27 They were eating and drinking, and marrying and being given in marriage, until the day Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed all of them. 28 Likewise, just as it was in the days of Lot: they were eating and drinking, buying and selling, planting and building, 29 but on the day that Lot left Sodom, it rained fire and sulfur from heaven and destroyed all of them 30 —it will be like that on the day that the Son of Man is revealed." Lu. 17:26-30 (NRSV)

I'm not sure that I see the contradiction here that you seem to see. Both accounts tell us that life on this earth will be pretty normal; people eating and drinking, marrying, buying and selling and planting and building. Life as we know it will just be rolling right along and then BAM in the blink of an eye Jesus will appear. Both of these accounts say the same thing. Life was rolling right along and then BAM the flood came. Life was just rolling along and then BAM fire and and sulfur began raining down from heaven.

"25 “There will be signs in the sun, the moon, and the stars, and on the earth distress among nations confused by the roaring of the sea and the waves. 26 People will faint from fear and foreboding of what is coming upon the world, for the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 27 Then they will see ‘the Son of Man coming in a cloud’ with power and great glory. " Lu. 21:25-27 (NRSV)

We are given two different pictures of events in these passages. In one, there is a tranquil time where the Son of Man suddenly appears and disaster ensues. In the other, we have people literally fainting from fear of the things coming on the earth, and then the Son of Man appears. It is obvious that the two passages cannot be talking about the same event. Again:

Yes, but consider if it is talking about people fainting when they see these signs that the appearance of the Son of Man is going to be pretty sudden. The only question really is how long a span of time will pass between this distress in the heaven and on the earth before Jesus appears. If it all happens pretty much in a 24 or 72 hour time span, then people will still have been living a fairly normal life up until that time of distress. So, I don't necessarily find any contradiction between these two passages, but consider that this distress in the heavens isn't going to be some long drawn out event, but rather pretty much the immediate precursor of Jesus coming.

As a matter of fact, Jesus even tells the believers that when we see these things happening, yes, we will know that our redemption is near.

" 10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a loud noise, and the elements will be dissolved with fire, and the earth and everything that is done on it will be disclosed." 2 Pet. 3:10 (NRSV0

Here it is not telling us anything about what people will be doing. It just says that that day is going to come like a thief. No one is going to know before the unsettling events in the heavens and on the earth that the day has arrived. This passage just confirms that we'd better not expect God to give us a two week warning that Jesus is coming. At best, we'll get maybe a few hours of warning.

This is a clear reference to the unexpected nature of the day Christ returns (the day of the Lord). If it is coming like a thief, then obviously no-one knows when it will arrive - it is completely unexpected, just like a thief in the night (the same allusion Christ/Paul use).

The allusion clearly means that even the time is completely unexpected. You do not prepare for a thief in the night - he simply breaks in at a completely unexpected hour when you are sound asleep. If you would have known he was coming, you would have watched. The problem with the allusion is this:

"Then I heard a loud voice from the temple telling the seven angels, “Go and pour out on the earth the seven bowls of the wrath of God.”
2 So the first angel went and poured his bowl on the earth, and a foul and painful sore came on those who had the mark of the beast and who worshiped its image.
3 The second angel poured his bowl into the sea, and it became like the blood of a corpse, and every living thing in the sea died.
4 The third angel poured his bowl into the rivers and the springs of water, and they became blood. 5 And I heard the angel of the waters say,
“You are just, O Holy One, who are and were,
for you have judged these things;
6 because they shed the blood of saints and prophets,
you have given them blood to drink.
It is what they deserve!”

Yes, but if you read the order of this event in the Revelation it comes in chapter 15 as we divide the Scriptures. But it is in the immediately preceding passage that we see Jesus return. God's wrath will not be poured out upon the earth until Jesus has taken those who are his to safety - for we are not children destined to receive God's wrath.

7 And I heard the altar respond,
“Yes, O Lord God, the Almighty,
your judgments are true and just!”

8 The fourth angel poured his bowl on the sun, and it was allowed to scorch people with fire; 9 they were scorched by the fierce heat, but they cursed the name of God, who had authority over these plagues, and they did not repent and give him glory.
10 The fifth angel poured his bowl on the throne of the beast, and its kingdom was plunged into darkness; people gnawed their tongues in agony, 11 and cursed the God of heaven because of their pains and sores, and they did not repent of their deeds.
12 The sixth angel poured his bowl on the great river Euphrates, and its water was dried up in order to prepare the way for the kings from the east. 13 And I saw three foul spirits like frogs coming from the mouth of the dragon, from the mouth of the beast, and from the mouth of the false prophet. 14 These are demonic spirits, performing signs, who go abroad to the kings of the whole world, to assemble them for battle on the great day of God the Almighty. 15 (“See, I am coming like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake and is clothed,[a] not going about naked and exposed to shame.&#8221 16 And they assembled them at the place that in Hebrew is called Harmagedon." Rev. 16:1-16 (NRSV)

No, I don't agree that Jesus is saying his visitation will be after the bowl judgments. He is merely confirming that his coming will be like a thief and then instructs us in how we should be living.

Now here's the huge problem. After the terrible bowl judgments - right near the end of the book of Revelation - Christ claims he is coming like a thief!! But if these judgments are to be taken literally, how could this be the case? Indeed, if the passage I quoted in Luke 21 is to be taken literally, then how could this possibly be the case?

Then we have this very interesting passage in Matthew to add to the pot:

"36 “But about that day and hour no one knows, neither the angels of heaven, nor the Son,[h] but only the Father. 37 For as the days of Noah were, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 38 For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day Noah entered the ark, 39 and they knew nothing until the flood came and swept them all away, so too will be the coming of the Son of Man. 40 Then two will be in the field; one will be taken and one will be left. 41 Two women will be grinding meal together; one will be taken and one will be left. 42 Keep awake therefore, for you do not know on what day[i] your Lord is coming. 43 But understand this: if the owner of the house had known in what part of the night the thief was coming, he would have stayed awake and would not have let his house be broken into. 44 Therefore you also must be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an unexpected hour." Mt. 24:36-44 (NRSV)

If we juxtapose this passage with Revelation 16 we see that they simply have to be talking about different things. Notice that the metaphor of "thief" is used in each (most interesting). This passage seems to be along the same lines as the passage in Luke 17. Christ claims that they will "know nothing" until "the coming of the Son of Man." But how could that be the case if Luke 21 and Revelation 16 are to happen?

The closest I can come to reconciling these blatant discrepancies is to posit that one set of passages refers to the rapture and the other set of passages refers to the physical coming of Christ to return to the planet. But there are still problems. For example, in each set of passages the allusion to the "thief" is used, which makes it difficult to dismiss the fact that they may be talking about the same event.

I have been puzzled by these contradictions for a long while. The dilemma is difficult. Thoughts?

They are all talking about the same 'set' of events. Jesus returns like a thief and takes away those who are his and then the bowls of God's wrath are poured out upon the earth.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

 

[Biblewriter]

There were many prophecies that foretold the first coming of Jesus. These prophecies included not only where He would be born, but even when He would come. But the vast bulk of the Biblical scholars of Jesus’ day totally missed most of these prophecies. They missed them because they concentrated only on passages that spoke of Him as the glorious conquering Messiah, such as, “Gird Your sword upon Your thigh, O Mighty One, With Your glory and Your majesty. And in Your majesty ride prosperously because of truth, humility, and righteousness; And Your right hand shall teach You awesome things. Your arrows are sharp in the heart of the King’s enemies; The peoples fall under You.” (Psalm 45:3-5) They completely neglected other passages that spoke of Him in a completely different light, like “He was oppressed and He was afflicted, Yet He opened not His mouth; He was led as a lamb to the slaughter, And as a sheep before its shearers is silent, So He opened not His mouth. He was taken from prison and from judgment, And who will declare His generation? For He was cut off from the land of the living; For the transgressions of My people He was stricken.” (Isaiah 53:7-8)

They should have noticed the contrast between such passages. The Holy Spirit told us that the prophets who uttered them noticed it. “Of this salvation the prophets have inquired and searched carefully, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you, searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow.” (1 Peter 1:10-11) But these ancient scholars loved prophecies about Israel’s future glory, so they concentrated on them, neglecting the equally important prophecies about how their deliverer would suffer. Now that the suffering is over, and the rest of the Holy Scriptures have been given to us, we realize that these prophecies spoke of the same Messiah, but at different times.

Even so, many scholars of our own day neglect similar differences in various unfulfilled prophecies about our Lord’s coming. Some of these prophecies speak of His coming as a wonderful thing, full of blessing. Others speak of it as a horrible thing, full of terror. Even as the ancient scholars missed the many differences between the prophecies about His suffering and those about His glory, many modern scholars miss many similar differences between prophecies about His coming in blessing for His own, and prophecies about His coming in judgment on the wicked. Even as the earlier prophecies spoke of the same Messiah, but at different times, these unfulfilled prophecies speak of the same coming Christ, but at different times.

Isaiah 13:9 describes “the day of the Lord” as “Cruel, with both wrath and fierce anger.” Jeremiah 46:10 calls it “A day of vengeance, That He may avenge Himself on His adversaries.” Joel 2:11 says that “the day of the Lord is great and very terrible;” adding, “Who can endure it?” Malachi 3:2 expands this by saying “But who can endure the day of His coming? And who can stand when He appears? For He is like a refiner’s fire And like launderers’ soap.” And Amos 5:18-20 says “Woe to you who desire the day of the Lord! For what good is the day of the Lord to you? It will be darkness, and not light. It will be as though a man fled from a lion, And a bear met him! Or as though he went into the house, Leaned his hand on the wall, And a serpent bit him! Is not the day of the Lord darkness, and not light? Is it not very dark, with no brightness in it?” So we see that “the day of the Lord” is a “cruel” “day of vengeance,” a time so terrible that it can not be endured, that no one can stand when the Lord appears, and that there is “no brightness” in “the day of the Lord.” This is reinforced by Joel 2:1-2, where we read that “For the day of the LORD is coming, For it is at hand: A day of darkness and gloominess, A day of clouds and thick darkness, Like the morning clouds spread over the mountains.”

This statement of “Woe to you who desire the day of the Lord” (Amos 5:18) stands in stark contrast with the statement of 2 Timothy 4:8 that the Lord will give “the crown of righteousness” to all who “have loved His appearing.” One scripture very clearly states God’s displeasure with anyone desiring “the day of the Lord,” and another scripture just as clearly states his pleasure with those who “have loved His appearing.” This, in and by itself, should show any serious student of the scriptures that these scriptures are speaking of two different events.

The first question in Malachi 3:2, “who can endure the day of His coming?” is radically different from the exhortation in 1 John 2:28, where we read, “And now, little children, abide in Him, that when He appears, we may have confidence and not be ashamed before Him at His coming.” One scripture clearly shows that no one “can endure the day of His coming,” while another scripture just as clearly shows that it is possible to “have confidence and not be ashamed before Him at His coming.” Again, these scriptures cannot be speaking of the same future day.

The second question in Malachi 3:2, “who can stand when He appears?” is radically different from the exhortation in Luke 21:36 to “Watch therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man.” As we noticed before, one scripture clearly shows that no one “can stand when He appears,” while another tells us to “pray that you may be counted worthy... to stand before the Son of Man.” Are we to imagine that our God exhorted us to pray for something that could not happen? Or do we realize that these two scriptures refer to two different future times.

Again, we have noticed that Joel 2:2 says that “the day of the Lord” is “A day of darkness and gloominess, A day of clouds and thick darkness,” and Amos 5:20 says, “ Is not the day of the Lord darkness, and not light? Is it not very dark, with no brightness in it?” These stand in stark contrast to the exhortation in Titus 2:13 that we should be “looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ.” One scripture very clearly teaches that the gloominess of “the day of the Lord” will be so great that there will be “no brightness in it.” While another scripture says his “glorious appearing” is our “blessed hope.” These scriptures cannot be describing the same event.

 

[Biblewriter]

But these contrasts are not the only differences between the unfulfilled prophecies about our Lord’s coming. There are also significant differences in various details contained in these prophecies. The best known of these is that Jesus said, “Watch therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hour in which the Son of Man is coming.” (Matthew 25:13) He also said “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.” (Mark 13:32) But in Daniel 12:9 we read, “Then I said, ‘My lord, what shall be the end of these things?’” In answer, the prophet was told in Daniel 12:11 that “from the time that the daily sacrifice is taken away, and the abomination of desolation is set up, there shall be one thousand two hundred and ninety days.” Now these are diametrically opposed concepts. Even the Lord Jesus Himself (speaking as a man) did not know the day or the hour of His coming. But even as a man He already had the scripture which specifically stated that He would come “one thousand two hundred and ninety days” after “the time that the daily sacrifice is taken away, and the abomination of desolation is set up.” Thus we see that these two scriptures speak of different events that take place at different times.

The coming of the Lord in blessing for His own is described in the following words: “For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words.” (1 Thessalonians 4:16-18)

Although 1 Thessalonians 4:16 plainly says that it is “the Lord Himself” who will come for us, Matthew 24:31 just as plainly says that “He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.” In one case, “we” are “caught up” by “the Lord Himself” and in the other “His elect.” are gathered by “His angels.”

To understand the significance of this contrast we need to look at Exodus 33, where we read in verses 1-4 that “the LORD said to Moses, ‘Depart and go up from here, you and the people whom you have brought out of the land of Egypt, to the land of which I swore to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, saying, “To your descendants I will give it.” And I will send My Angel before you, and I will drive out the Canaanite and the Amorite and the Hittite and the Perizzite and the Hivite and the Jebusite. Go up to a land flowing with milk and honey; for I will not go up in your midst, lest I consume you on the way, for you are a stiff-necked people.’ And when the people heard this bad news, they mourned, and no one put on his ornaments.” But in verses 12-17 we read, “Then Moses said to the LORD, ‘See, You say to me, “Bring up this people.” But You have not let me know whom You will send with me. Yet You have said, “I know you by name, and you have also found grace in My sight.” Now therefore, I pray, if I have found grace in Your sight, show me now Your way, that I may know You and that I may find grace in Your sight. And consider that this nation is Your people.” And He said, ‘My Presence will go with you, and I will give you rest.’ Then he said to Him, ‘If Your Presence does not go with us, do not bring us up from here. For how then will it be known that Your people and I have found grace in Your sight, except You go with us? So we shall be separate, Your people and I, from all the people who are upon the face of the earth.’ So the LORD said to Moses, ‘I will also do this thing that you have spoken; for you have found grace in My sight, and I know you by name.’”

Thus we see that the scriptures plainly teach us that there is a significant difference between the presence of the Lord Himself and that of only a mere angel. But one scripture about the future plainly teaches that “we” will be “caught up” by “the Lord Himself” and another says “His elect.” are gathered by “His angels.” Again, these scriptures cannot be speaking of the same event.

Again, 1 Thessalonians 4:17 plainly states that when our Lord comes for us we “shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.” But when he comes in judgment on the wicked “His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives.” (Zechariah 14:4) In the first case, He meets His own “in the air.” But in the second case we are expressly told that “His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives.” Meeting us “In the air” is significantly different from standing “on the Mount of Olives.”

Again, Revelation 1:7 says,“Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.” But 1 Corinthians 15:51-52 says, “Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed—in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.” There is no way that “every eye” could see something that will take place “in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye.”

 

[Biblewriter]

All these are indeed material differences between various unfulfilled prophecies about our Lord’s coming But there is one that overshadows all the rest of them. In the parable of the ten virgins (Matthew 25:1-12) we read that “the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the wedding; and the door was shut. Afterward the other virgins came also, saying, ‘Lord, Lord, open to us!’ But he answered and said, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, I do not know you.’” (Matthew 25:10-12) here we plainly see the righteous taken into the Lord’s presence while the wicked are left outside a door that remains closed in spite of their pleading. But that is not all that we see here. The word “afterward” in this parable indicates a delay between the time when “they that were ready went in with him” and the time when “other virgins came also.” This is significant because it indicates that the “other virgins” were not removed until after the time when “they that were ready went in with him.”

But in the parable of the wheat and the tares (Matthew 13:24-30) we read that at the time of harvest the owner of the field will say, “First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn.” (Matthew 13:30) The word “first” in this command clearly indicates that the wicked are gathered before the righteous. Now this order of events is exactly the opposite of the order indicated in Matthew 25. (And yes, the words “afterward” and “first” are in the Greek text of these parables.) The contrast between these orders of events clearly indicates that the two parables are speaking of two different events that take place at different times.

In the explanation of the parable in Matthew 13, (Matthew 13:37-43) Jesus said this meant that “The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. ” (Matthew 13:41-43) He then added that “Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a dragnet that was cast into the sea and gathered some of every kind, which, when it was full, they drew to shore; and they sat down and gathered the good into vessels, but threw the bad away. So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come forth, separate the wicked from among the just, and cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.” (Matthew 13:47-50)

This is again radically different from the scene presented in Matthew 25. In Matthew 13, the wicked are taken “from among the just.” In Matthew 25, the just are taken from among the wicked. In Matthew 13, the wicked are removed and cast into the fire. In Matthew 25, the wicked are left where they are, but are given no further chance to repent.

This fact that they are given no further chance to repent is stressed in 2 Thessalonians 2:9-12, where we read that “The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.” The reason for this is distinctly stated. God will do this as a punishment “because they did not receive the love of the truth,” that is, because they did not wish to know the truth. This awful punishment is because, instead of receiving the truth, they “had pleasure in unrighteousness.” Nor is this only stated in the New Testament. We see it again in the last chapter of Isaiah, where we read, “Just as they have chosen their own ways, And their soul delights in their abominations, So will I choose their delusions, And bring their fears on them; Because, when I called, no one answered, When I spoke they did not hear; But they did evil before My eyes, And chose that in which I do not delight.” (Isaiah 66:3-4) So the scriptures clearly teach that there is a time coming in which those who had previously rejected the gospel will have no more chance to repent. This is in perfect keeping with the statement of Matthew 25:10 that “the door was shut” after “the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the wedding.” It is also in perfect keeping with the statement of Matthew 25:11-12 that “Afterward the other virgins came also, saying, ‘Lord, Lord, open to us!’ But he answered and said, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, I do not know you.’” This parable clearly shows that there will be those that seek a relationship with the bridegroom after He has come. But at that time it will be too late. 2 Thessalonians 2:9-12 clearly states that at that time, those that had previously rejected God’s word will be turned over to believe “the lie.” And Isaiah 66:3-4 just as clearly states that at that time God “will choose their delusions.” The time being spoken of here is plainly the time we call the tribulation. But it takes place after “the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the wedding.”

 

[Biblewriter]

Again we read in John 14:2-3, “In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.” But we also read in 1 Thessalonians 3:12-13, “And may the Lord make you increase and abound in love to one another and to all, just as we do to you, so that He may establish your hearts blameless in holiness before our God and Father at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all His saints.”

In the first of these, our Lord says “I will come again, and receive you to myself.” In the second, we read of “the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all His saints.” In the first passage He comes to receive His own to Himself. In the second one He comes with them, for He comes “with all His saints.” If He is going to come for His own and He is also going to come with them, He has to come for them before He can come with them. This is a simple matter of the meaning of words. No other interpretation is possible. These two scriptures, in and by themselves, do not indicate how long the delay between these two events might be, but they clearly indicate that they occur in sequence. Many imagine that this sequence is simply that He meets us on the way down, and then continues on down to the mount of Olives to execute judgment on the wicked. But this interpretation does not fit the rest of the scriptures.

Looking again at John 14:2-3, we read, “In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.”
In this scripture, our Lord first refers to His Father’s house, saying “In my Father’s house are many mansions.” He then says that he is going “to prepare a place for you.” From this statement it is plain that the place to which He was going “to prepare a place for you” was His “Father’s house.” But He said He was going there “to prepare a place for you” He was going to His “Father’s house,” “to prepare a place for you.” And that is the place from which he “will come again, and receive you unto myself.” But what is the purpose of this coming? “That where I am, there ye may be also.” This scripture does not present a picture of coming, picking us up along the way, and taking us with Himself to another place. It presents a picture of coming to get us and taking us back to where he came from, that is, His “Father’s house.” That is where He has gone “to prepare a place” for us. That is where He is, and that is where he will take us, for the stated purpose of this coming is “that where I am, there you may be also.”

But the purpose of His coming “with all His saints” is entirely different, for we read in Jude 14-15, “Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints, to execute judgment on all, to convict all who are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have committed in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.” (Jude 14-15) The purpose of the first coming is to “receive you unto myself.” The purpose of the second coming is “to execute judgement on all.”

We have seen that comparing John 14:2-3 and 1 Thessalonians 3:12-13 makes it clear that there is a delay between these two events, but does not indicate how long that delay will be. Other scriptures give an indication of how long this will be. The most significant of these is “Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.” (Revelation 3:10) The Greek word translated from in this passage is ek (word number 1537 in Strong’s Greek Dictionary.) Strong defines this word as follows: “A primary preposition denoting origin (the point whence motion or action proceeds), from, out (of place, time or cause; literally or figuratively; direct or remote)” Thayer defines it as “out of, from, by, away from.” Other Greek references give similar definitions. In addition to the NKJV version of the Bible, which we are using, we find the same rendering of this Greek word in the KJV, the ASV, the CEV, the ESV, the HCSB, the NASB, the NLT, the NRSV, the RSV, and the TEV versions of the Bible and the ISVNT version of the New Testament. Some pretend that in this passage, ek actually means through, in, or during, but in the face of such strong evidence, such a claim is hard to defend.

In addition, we need to take into account what we were promised to be kept from. The promise was, “I... will keep you from the hour of trial.” There is a coming “hour of trial.” But these who “have kept” our Lord’s “command to persevere”will be kept “from,” that is, out of, that “hour.” We are not promised that we will be kept out of the trial, but out of the “hour,” that is, the time, in which this trial will take place.

This “hour of trial” “shall come upon the whole world.” the Greek word translated whole here is holos (word number 3650 in Strong’s Greek dictionary.) Strong defines this word as follows: “A primary word; ‘whole; or ‘all’, that is, complete (in extent, amount, time or degree), especially (neuter) as noun or adverb.” Thayer defines it simply as “all, whole, completely.” There can be no question that in this passage, this Greek word means the entire world, all of it, not just part of it. This “hour of trial”, that is, this time of testing, “shall come upon the whole world.” But the Lord’s own are promised to be kept out of it. This shows us that the delay between the Lord’s coming for his own and his coming with them is at least as long as this “hour of trial,” for if it “shall come upon the whole world” but we are kept out of it, our removal from the world has to before that “hour of trial.”

Again, in the order of events in Revelation 19, we see the marriage of the lamb in verses 7-8, “‘Let us be glad and rejoice and give Him glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready.’And to her it was granted to be arrayed in fine linen, clean and bright, for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints.” Then, after that, we see the Lord going forth out of heaven as the mighty conqueror, followed by the armies of heaven in verses 11-16 “Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself. He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses. Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.” This sequence of events clearly shows the church, the bride of Christ, already in heaven before the Lord comes in power and glory to judge the world. But it does not just show that. It clearly shows the armies proceeding out of heaven with the Lord “clothed in fine linen, white and clean.” But it had just told us, only six verses earlier, that “the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints.” This is conclusive proof that the saints will already be in heaven before the Lord comes to judge the world.

Now many produce various arguments to prove that this conclusion is incorrect. But essentially every argument they produce is one that fails to take into account the marked differences between the scriptures about our Lord’s coming in vengeance to judge the world and his coming in blessing to receive His own to Himself. Many insist that there is no such distinction. But as we have seen, there are numerous such distinctions, and that in some cases they are very extreme. There is no logical conclusion except that these distinctions indicate that the unfulfilled prophecies about the future coming of Christ follow the precedent established in the Old Testament scriptures of showing, even though not stating, that there would be more than one such future coming.

 

[Serpentslayer]

Now here's the huge problem. After the terrible bowl judgments - right near the end of the book of Revelation - Christ claims he is coming like a thief!! But if these judgments are to be taken literally, how could this be the case? Indeed, if the passage I quoted in Luke 21 is to be taken literally, then how could this possibly be the case?

The reason why you can't resolve the coming of the thief in the night metaphor with the end of days judgement bowels is this.

Firstly of all Revelation gives a a description of things that are to those things that have yet to be, which are the seven judgement bowels coinciding with the end of harvest and the end of the world.

At the end of the book of Revelation Christ gives a solemn warning throughout all generation present in John's time until the end concerning the context of the coming of the thief in the night.

Secondly one would ask what is then the coming of the thief in the night?

It is the Lord's coming that has been happening to every departed person from every nation and tongue whether good or wicked to die once as it is destined, to then face the first judgement in front of the heavenly inner court room of Christ and his 24 elders as jury in the deliberation process in separating the sheep and the goats.

So now we have established that the first judgement immediately follows in the separating of the sheep and the goats of the departed. So let us bring it into context of the thief in the night.

The thief is death and when it comes upon an individual whether good or wicked, comes in a day and hour that is unbeknown to that person of the house, to destroy (kill) the earthly house (your Adam One body). This coming is also described as happening in the darkest hours of the night at mine night meaning the time is up for that individual living in the Adam One body, where now the day of The Lord has come for him to face the white throne judgement seat of Christ to be either rewarded as a sheep or sent of into outer darkness as a goat/tare.

The second judgement at the end of the harvest when the world will give up its dead meaning there is no more Adam Ones living as they have all departed from the earthly house to face the first judgement in their last day and hour. This second judgement is the final judgement of the wicked who did not take part in the resurrection of the dead and therefore waited their final execution as the TARES who are bundled together and destroyed in the second death, the death of the soul in he lake of fire.

Now the question is when did the resurrection of the dead, that John calls first resurrection in his Revelation?

It began after Christ's resurrection, when he opened the graves of the old covenant saints and as in Peter took these once captives in shoal (paradise/Abraham's Bosom) and gave them gifts in his newly established heavenly kingdom where his heavenly court of 24 elders have been sitting as jury in deliberating the fate of the first martyr Saint Stephan right down to the last Adams that depart at the end of the great harvest.

So those that depart, to face the first judgement at the Lord's coming after the thief comes in a day and hour to take away their earthly house (body) who immediately as Christ's sheep, take part in the resurrection of the dead are said to reign with him a 1000 years.

A 1000 years is an indefinite article implying eternal reign without measure of time. Whereas the two symbolic witnesses that preach the gospel in the outer unmeasured court of the unbelieving earthly realm are given a time, time and half a time to preach the word to the ends of the world, then the end of the harvest will come.

The race against time by the two symbolic witnesses starting from the 1st century right down to the end of days church are given a set time by the definite article, when scriptures states when THE 1000 years are up the. The beast of the bottomless Pitt aka satan will emerge to martyr the true church, then the successive judgment bowels will be poured out whilst the remaining elect are protected until the indignation is passed and these last elect are said to barely keep alive, where God says if he didn't shorten those days by bringing it to an end then there will be no Adam One flesh left alive. But for the sake of the elect God shortens those terrible days so that these elect actually see the brilliant coming of the Christ who sounds the seventh trumpet and declares time no longer meaning the end of the earthly time based reality as we know it and the commencing of the wedding of the lamb of God.

The wedding of the lamb of God has been from when Christ opened the Old covenant saints graves been inviting guests, until the last remaining elect, who are symbolised as the last tasting good wine of the great harvest.

 

[zeke37]

One of the major problems with eschatology is that the passages involved often seem to contradict one another. For example, we have a wealth of information about the Second Coming of Christ in the Bible. Christ, Peter, Paul, Revelation, and even the Old Testament have many passages on the subject. The problem is that when we add them all together they do not seem to fit into a coherent picture. Let me give an example.

" 26 Just as it was in the days of Noah, so too it will be in the days of the Son of Man. 27 They were eating and drinking, and marrying and being given in marriage, until the day Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed all of them. 28 Likewise, just as it was in the days of Lot: they were eating and drinking, buying and selling, planting and building, 29 but on the day that Lot left Sodom, it rained fire and sulfur from heaven and destroyed all of them 30 —it will be like that on the day that the Son of Man is revealed." Lu. 17:26-30 (NRSV)

"25 “There will be signs in the sun, the moon, and the stars, and on the earth distress among nations confused by the roaring of the sea and the waves. 26 People will faint from fear and foreboding of what is coming upon the world, for the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 27 Then they will see ‘the Son of Man coming in a cloud’ with power and great glory. " Lu. 21:25-27 (NRSV)

We are given two different pictures of events in these passages. In one, there is a tranquil time where the Son of Man suddenly appears and disaster ensues. In the other, we have people literally fainting from fear of the things coming on the earth, and then the Son of Man appears. It is obvious that the two passages cannot be talking about the same event.

I have to disagree.
the deceived of the world, will not even know they are deceived during the trib

but at it's conclusion, they will know,
as they see the Lord Coming in the Clouds of heaven
bringing with Him the wrath of God

Again:

" 10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a loud noise, and the elements will be dissolved with fire, and the earth and everything that is done on it will be disclosed." 2 Pet. 3:10 (NRSV0

This is a clear reference to the unexpected nature of the day Christ returns (the day of the Lord). If it is coming like a thief, then obviously no-one knows when it will arrive - it is completely unexpected, just like a thief in the night (the same allusion Christ/Paul use).

they all use that reference towards the unsaved/deceived.
they do not mean that for us that believe and are faithful.

Paul tells us of THAT DAY in 1Thes4's resurrection/gathering.
he goes on in 1Thes5 until verse 11,
to tell of how that day shall not come upon us unaware,
not to us that are watching for it anyway.

The allusion clearly means that even the time is completely unexpected.

it is only unexpected if u are not looking for it

You do not prepare for a thief in the night - he simply breaks in at a completely unexpected hour when you are sound asleep. If you would have known he was coming, you would have watched.

and the Lord repeatedly tells us to be a watchman,
so the thief does not come and destroy your house

The problem with the allusion is this:

"Then I heard a loud voice from the temple telling the seven angels, “Go and pour out on the earth the seven bowls of the wrath of God.”
2 So the first angel went and poured his bowl on the earth, and a foul and painful sore came on those who had the mark of the beast and who worshiped its image.
3 The second angel poured his bowl into the sea, and it became like the blood of a corpse, and every living thing in the sea died.
4 The third angel poured his bowl into the rivers and the springs of water, and they became blood. 5 And I heard the angel of the waters say,
“You are just, O Holy One, who are and were,
for you have judged these things;
6 because they shed the blood of saints and prophets,
you have given them blood to drink.
It is what they deserve!”

7 And I heard the altar respond,
“Yes, O Lord God, the Almighty,
your judgments are true and just!”

8 The fourth angel poured his bowl on the sun, and it was allowed to scorch people with fire; 9 they were scorched by the fierce heat, but they cursed the name of God, who had authority over these plagues, and they did not repent and give him glory.
10 The fifth angel poured his bowl on the throne of the beast, and its kingdom was plunged into darkness; people gnawed their tongues in agony, 11 and cursed the God of heaven because of their pains and sores, and they did not repent of their deeds.
12 The sixth angel poured his bowl on the great river Euphrates, and its water was dried up in order to prepare the way for the kings from the east. 13 And I saw three foul spirits like frogs coming from the mouth of the dragon, from the mouth of the beast, and from the mouth of the false prophet. 14 These are demonic spirits, performing signs, who go abroad to the kings of the whole world, to assemble them for battle on the great day of God the Almighty. 15 (“See, I am coming like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake and is clothed,[a] not going about naked and exposed to shame.”) 16 And they assembled them at the place that in Hebrew is called Harmagedon." Rev. 16:1-16 (NRSV)

Now here's the huge problem. After the terrible bowl judgments - right near the end of the book of Revelation - Christ claims he is coming like a thief!! But if these judgments are to be taken literally, how could this be the case? Indeed, if the passage I quoted in Luke 21 is to be taken literally, then how could this possibly be the case?

it is simply a statement to us, a warning while reading it/hearing it....
iow, we are to be watchman for that day,(signs given repeatedly)
because if we aren't, then He comes like a thief in the night
and pours wrath on us.

so, be patient, be faithful, be watchmen...or else.
it's not a statement that He hasn't come yet.
the fact that the wrath is being poured, means He's here

Then we have this very interesting passage in Matthew to add to the pot:

"36 “But about that day and hour no one knows, neither the angels of heaven, nor the Son,[h] but only the Father. 37 For as the days of Noah were, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 38 For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day Noah entered the ark, 39 and they knew nothing until the flood came and swept them all away, so too will be the coming of the Son of Man. 40 Then two will be in the field; one will be taken and one will be left. 41 Two women will be grinding meal together; one will be taken and one will be left. 42 Keep awake therefore, for you do not know on what day[i] your Lord is coming. 43 But understand this: if the owner of the house had known in what part of the night the thief was coming, he would have stayed awake and would not have let his house be broken into. 44 Therefore you also must be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an unexpected hour." Mt. 24:36-44 (NRSV)

If we juxtapose this passage with Revelation 16 we see that they simply have to be talking about different things. Notice that the metaphor of "thief" is used in each (most interesting). This passage seems to be along the same lines as the passage in Luke 17. Christ claims that they will "know nothing" until "the coming of the Son of Man." But how could that be the case if Luke 21 and Revelation 16 are to happen?

the passage in Mat24 is speaking to the deceived/hypocrites who are taken in the flood
they won't even know they are deceived at all.
they get their portion with the hypocrites.
and the chapter also speaks to the faithful workers
who remain working and are rewarded at His coming

one group doesn't see that day coming,
and one group see's it coming

The closest I can come to reconciling these blatant discrepancies is to posit that one set of passages refers to the rapture and the other set of passages refers to the physical coming of Christ to return to the planet.

the rapture IS at His Coming 1Thes4
it is post trib, not pre or mid trib.

But there are still problems. For example, in each set of passages the allusion to the "thief" is used, which makes it difficult to dismiss the fact that they may be talking about the same event.

they are indeed.

I have been puzzled by these contradictions for a long while. The dilemma is difficult. Thoughts?

not really. it just depends on who is the focus...
the bad guys or the good guys.
one see's THAT DAY coming in advance,
and one doesn't until it's upon them and the wrath is poured on them

 

[Another Lazarus]

1 Thes 5 1-6 But because you, my brothers, are not living in darkness the day cannot take you by surprise, like a burglar!

so the day will not surprise you Unless u r living in darkness

May Jesus bless u

 

[Bible2]

Achilles6129 said in post 1:

Contradictions in the Second Coming

Actually, there aren't any. Jesus' coming as a thief in the night doesn't mean that his coming is imminent. For he can't come until immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

Jesus' 2nd coming as a thief in the night (1 Thessalonians 5:2) means that he will come the 2nd time upon even Christians when they aren't expecting him only if they stop watching (staying awake, spiritually) during the tribulation. Compare the if principle of Revelation 3:3. Also, some in the church will still be alive on the earth during the tribulation's final stage, still waiting for Jesus' 2nd coming as a thief (Revelation 16:15). So his 2nd coming won't overtake them like a thief (1 Thessalonians 5:4, Matthew 24:43).

Regarding Jesus 2nd coming as a thief to the unsaved world, when it isn't expecting him (1 Thessalonians 5:2-4, Matthew 24:39), nothing requires that the unsaved world will be expecting Jesus' 2nd coming after the tribulation. For during the tribulation, the unsaved world could come to believe that his 2nd coming has already happened (Matthew 24:24-26).

-

The unsaved people of the world will have no idea that most of them are going to be killed at Jesus' 2nd coming until it happens (Matthew 24:37-39). For they could think that the 2nd coming had already occurred with the coming into power of the Antichrist's miracle-working False Prophet (Revelation 13:13-14, Revelation 19:20), who could claim to be Jesus returned. And just as the people of the world shortly before Noah's flood, even though they could see or hear about Noah building his huge ark, no doubt rejected the idea that YHWH had the power to actually cause a global flood which would kill them, so the people of the world at the end of the future tribulation could reject the idea that YHWH has the power to actually defeat them.

For during the tribulation's 2nd half, the world will see the power of Lucifer (Satan, the dragon) and his fallen angels (Revelation 12:9), and the power Lucifer will give to the Antichrist to take over the entire earth (Revelation 13:4-8), and to utterly revile YHWH year after year without being destroyed (Revelation 13:5-6, Daniel 11:36), and to physically overcome and kill people in the church in every nation (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13). And the world will see the amazing miraculous powers that Lucifer will give to the Antichrist's False Prophet, by which he will be able to even call fire down from heaven in the sight of everyone (Revelation 13:13, cf. 2 Thessalonians 2:9).

And near the end of the future tribulation, the world will see the Antichrist's defeat of YHWH's amazingly-powerful two witnesses (Revelation 11:3-9), after which defeat the world will rejoice and make merry and send gifts to each other because the two witnesses had been sending plagues on the world (Revelation 11:10,6). And even though those plagues will be shortly followed by even more plagues from YHWH, poured out directly from heaven (Revelation 16, the tribulation's final stage), the people of the world won't lose their confidence that YHWH can still be defeated. For after almost all of the plagues from heaven are over, the world will see the awesome miraculous powers of some unclean spirits, convincing the world's armies to gather together for a battle against YHWH (Revelation 16:13-14, Revelation 19:19). And so the world could come to that battle at the very end of the tribulation with the same careless attitude as some people at the start of the American Civil War, who held picnics at the expected first battleground of Bull Run/Manassas to watch the battle and what they expected to be a quick and easy victory.

 

[Bible2]

Biblewriter said in post 4:

They should have noticed the contrast between such passages.

There was a contrast between the Old Testament prophecies regarding the Messiah's/the Christ's coming, with some of them showing him coming to be meekly crucified for our sins (Isaiah 53, Psalms 22), and others showing him descending from heaven to wage war and to reign over the earth (Zechariah 14, Micah 4:1-4). But nothing in the Old Testament or New Testament requires a future (to us), pre-tribulation coming of Christ versus a post-tribulation coming of Christ. For all the as-yet-unfulfilled Old Testament and New Testament prophecies regarding Christ's coming will be fulfilled at or sometime after his post-tribulation, 2nd coming.

Biblewriter said in post 4:

Isaiah 13:9 describes “the day of the Lord” as “Cruel, with both wrath and fierce anger.”

For the unsaved, not the saved. The day of the Lord/Christ (2 Thessalonians 2:2) will begin at the Lord Jesus Christ's 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 1:7-8; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10), which won't occur until Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, "immediately after" the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8), which is when the rapture will occur (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

Biblewriter said in post 4:

The second question in Malachi 3:2, “who can stand when He appears?” is radically different from the exhortation in Luke 21:36 to “Watch therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man.”

Malachi 3:2
But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? . . .

Malachi 3:2 means that no one will be left standing on the earth at Jesus' singular, future coming, in the sense that everyone will probably fall on their knees or on their faces in overwhelming awe at the glory of his 2nd coming in the sky (Matthew 24:30). But some unsaved people will be left alive on the earth at that time (Matthew 24:39b-40, Zechariah 14:16-19). Also, Malachi 3:3-4 refers to all the unsaved elect genetic Jews who will become saved (Romans 11:25-32) by God's grace when they see the returned Jesus in person and believe in him (Zechariah 12:10-14). And so they will all become part of the church at that time, just as when genetic Jews believe in Jesus now they become part of the church, for there are now no believers outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-5). Also, all the genetic Jews and genetic Gentiles who got saved before Jesus' 2nd coming will endure it, for the rapture and marriage of the church will occur at that time (Matthew 24:30-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

Biblewriter said in post 4:

The second question in Malachi 3:2, “who can stand when He appears?” is radically different from the exhortation in Luke 21:36 to “Watch therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man.”

Note that Luke 21:36 doesn't require a pre-tribulation rapture, for some in the church will escape all of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 by dying before it begins (Isaiah 57:1), and others in the church will escape all of it by being physically protected on the earth during it (Revelation 12:14-16, Psalms 91). Those who will escape it by dying before it begins will stand before the Lord in heaven (Philippians 1:21,23; 2 Corinthians 5:8). And those who will escape it by being miraculously protected on the earth during it will stand before the Lord in the sky at the rapture (1 Thessalonians 4:17), which won't occur until immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

Biblewriter said in post 4:

Again, we have noticed that Joel 2:2 says that “the day of the Lord” is “A day of darkness and gloominess, A day of clouds and thick darkness,” and Amos 5:20 says, “ Is not the day of the Lord darkness, and not light? Is it not very dark, with no brightness in it?”

Joel 2:1-27 can refer poetically to a literal locust invasion which destroyed ancient Israel's crops (Joel 2:25) sometime before the Acts 2 day of Pentecost in the first century AD (Joel 2:28-29, Acts 2:16-18). For the day of the Lord in Joel 2:1-27 can refer to an ancient day of the Lord, like the ancient day of the Lord in Jeremiah 46:2,10. Both of these ancient days of the Lord can be different than the future day of the Lord (Joel 2:31) which won't start until sometime after the 6th seal (Revelation 6:12, Joel 2:31) of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. For the future day of the Lord/Christ (2 Thessalonians 2:2) won't begin until Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 1:7-8; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10), which won't occur until immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

Joel 2:1 referring to only Zion, the holy mountain, and the land, can mean that it's referring to only a localized day of the Lord which affected only the ancient Israelites on their land. Joel 2:2 can refer to a huge cloud of literal locusts darkening the skies of Israel. Just as literal ants can be referred to as "a people" (Hebrew: "am", H5971) (Proverbs 30:25), so a huge cloud of devouring locusts can be referred to poetically as "a great people (H5971) and a strong" (Joel 2:2). Joel 2:3b describes the effects of a locust invasion, which can be poetically expressed as being like a devouring fire (Joel 2:3a). Joel 2:4 can describe locusts running along the ground as looking like little horses. Joel 2:5 can poetically describe locusts leaping high, and devouring every plant, down even to its stubble. "A strong people set in battle array" (Joel 2:5) brings to mind another poetic description of a locust swarm: "go they forth all of them by bands", that is, distributed into ranks (Hebrew "chatsats", H2686) (Proverbs 30:27).

Joel 2:6 can poetically describe the immense grief felt by the ancient Israelites as they witnessed all their crops being devoured by the locust swarm. Joel 2:7 can describe locusts running along the ground and climbing up walls. "They shall march every one on his ways, and they shall not break their ranks" (Joel 2:7) again brings to mind another poetic description of a locust swarm: "go they forth all of them by bands" (Proverbs 30:27). Joel 2:8 can refer to the locusts in the swarm not attacking each other, and to how useless a sword was in fighting against them. Because locusts are so small and have an exoskeleton, they can just bounce off a swinging sword as they fly along. Joel 2:9 can refer to locusts running along the ground through a city, climbing up onto the walls of buildings and into windows looking for food anywhere they can.

Joel 2:10 can be poetic hyperbole to express how terrible the locust swarm was to the land of Israel, and how the swarm was so vast that it darkened the skies of Israel completely. The original Hebrew word (erets, H0776) translated as "the earth" (Joel 2:10) can refer to only a local area of land (e.g. Genesis 2:11,13), like, for example, our word "earthquake" today can refer to only a local event. Joel 2:11 shows that the literal locust swarm wasn't from Satan, fallen angels, or evil nephilim, but was considered by God to be his own "army", as it were (Joel 2:25). Joel 2:20 can mean that God's literal locust "army" (Joel 2:25) came from the north into the land of Israel, and that the swarm was eventually sent off by God into the barren desert, where the locusts died of starvation and their millions of dead bodies rotted in the sun and sent up a great stench. Joel 2:25 shows that it was literal locusts, and other plant-destroying insects, which God considered to be "my great army which I sent among you".

Joel 2:28-29 shows that the locusts devoured ancient Israel's crops sometime before the Acts 2 day of Pentecost in the first century AD. For Joel 2:28-29 began to happen sometime "afterward", sometime after the locust invasion of Joel 2:1-27. And Joel 2:28-29 began to happen at the Acts 2 day of Pentecost (Acts 2:16-18).

Biblewriter said in post 4:

Again, we have noticed that Joel 2:2 says that “the day of the Lord” is “A day of darkness and gloominess, A day of clouds and thick darkness,” and Amos 5:20 says, “ Is not the day of the Lord darkness, and not light? Is it not very dark, with no brightness in it?”

Amos 5:18-20 refers to an ancient day of the Lord, like the ancient day of the Lord in Jeremiah 46:2,10. In its context, Amos 5:18-20 is addressing the ancient northern kingdom of Israel (Amos 5:1,4-6,21-27) before God brought punishment and defeat to it (Amos 2:6,14-16, Amos 3:1 to 5:27) at the hands of the ancient Assyrians, who took Israel into captivity in Assyria, "beyond Damascus" (Amos 5:27).

*******

Biblewriter said in post 5:

The best known of these is that Jesus said, “Watch therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hour in which the Son of Man is coming.” (Matthew 25:13)

Matthew 25:13, like Matthew 24:36,42,44, refers to Jesus' 2nd coming (Matthew 24:37,42,44), which Jesus had just finished saying won't happen until immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31). So in Matthew 24:42,44, Jesus can mean that only if believers don't watch (stay awake, spiritually) during the tribulation, the 2nd coming will happen at an hour they don't know/think not (cf. the if principle of Revelation 3:3b). In the context of Matthew 24:36,42,44, Jesus suggests that it is possible for believers to know when the 2nd coming will occur and to watch for it (Matthew 24:43-44a; 1 Thessalonians 5:4).

Also, Jesus says "of that day and hour knoweth no man" (Matthew 24:36), he doesn't say "of that day and hour no man will know". So it's possible that at a certain point in our future, some believers will come to know the date (as in the year, month, and day) of the 2nd coming before it happens. Also, if we mistakenly think that Jesus can come today or tomorrow (as is sometimes claimed by the pre-tribulation and symbolicist views), then how can we also claim that he will come when nobody thinks he will (Matthew 24:44)?

Also, compare the following: "of that day and hour knoweth no man" (Matthew 24:36), "the things of God knoweth no man" (1 Corinthians 2:11). If we claim that the first verse means that no man will ever know the date of the 2nd coming until it happens, then to be consistent we would have to also claim that the 2nd verse means that no man, not even believers, can know the things of God until the 2nd coming. But who would say that? For the Holy Spirit can currently reveal to believers the things of God (1 Corinthians 2:12-13). He can currently guide them into all truth and show them what will happen in the future (John 16:13), including the date of the 2nd coming. For, again, Jesus suggests that it is possible for believers to know when the 2nd coming will occur and to watch for it (Matthew 24:43-44a; 1 Thessalonians 5:4). Also, what Amos 3:7 says would include the 2nd coming: Surely God the Father won't send Jesus back without having first revealed to some believers the secret of the date of the 2nd coming.

Jesus could return on the 1,335th day after the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) is set up in a 3rd Jewish temple (Daniel 12:11-12, Revelation 16:15, Daniel 11:31,36, Matthew 24:15).

 

[Bible2]

Biblewriter said in post 5:

Even the Lord Jesus Himself (speaking as a man) did not know the day or the hour of His coming.

Before his resurrection, Jesus didn't know the date (as in the year, month, and day) of his 2nd coming (Mark 13:32). But he did know that he will return "immediately after the tribulation" of Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Revelation chapters 6 to 18 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:2 to 20:6, cf. John 16:12). And he did know that this tribulation will include the antitypical fulfillment of the abomination of desolation (Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31, Daniel 12:11-12, Revelation 16:15).

The reason that Jesus didn't know, before his resurrection, the date of his 2nd coming (Mark 13:32), was because at his incarnation (John 1:1,14), he temporarily laid aside (Philippians 2:6-8) his divine omniscience with regard to his own conscious human knowledge (Mark 13:32), in order to completely share in our mortal human condition (Hebrews 2:17), and to be tempted in every way that we're tempted (Hebrews 4:15). Nonetheless, he still remained God (John 10:30, John 1:1,14; 1 Timothy 3:16). And after his physical resurrection into human immortality (Luke 24:39), he regained his divine omniscience (Colossians 2:2b-3), just as he regained his divine omnipotence (Matthew 28:18). So now he does know the date of his 2nd coming.

God, including Jesus, is also omnipresent, by his Spirit (Psalms 139:7-10, Matthew 28:20b). But Jesus (God the Word, God the Son) is now also at the same time in a human, physical body (Luke 24:39). It's in this body that Jesus ascended into heaven (Acts 1:9, Acts 3:21) and now sits at God the Father's right hand (Hebrews 10:12), and will return from heaven to set his feet on the Mount of Olives (Zechariah 14:3-4, Acts 1:11-12). Jesus will remain in his physical human body forever, so he can serve as saved humans' high priest/mediator forever (Hebrews 7:24-25, Hebrews 2:16-18; 1 Timothy 2:5).

The only thing that Jesus couldn't have put aside before his resurrection, and still have remained God, would have been his divine, Spiritual uncreatedness (John 1:1-3), his from-everlasting-to-everlasting divine immortality (1 Timothy 6:16, Micah 5:2c). It was by this essential aspect of divinity ("I AM THAT I AM": Exodus 3:14, John 8:58) that Jesus had the power to revive his human life into human immortality after his human death (John 10:17-18, Romans 1:4). Because he's God, even as a human it wasn't possible for him to remain dead (Acts 2:24).

Biblewriter said in post 5:

Although 1 Thessalonians 4:16 plainly says that it is “the Lord Himself” who will come for us, Matthew 24:31 just as plainly says that “He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.” In one case, “we” are “caught up” by “the Lord Himself” and in the other “His elect.” are gathered by “His angels.”

Note that nothing in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 says or requires that the Lord himself won't be accompanied by his angels at that time, for otherwise there could be no "voice of the archangel" heard at that time. And 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 refers to the same 2nd coming of Jesus and gathering together (rapture) of the church as 2 Thessalonians 2:1, which refers to the same 2nd coming of Jesus and gathering together (rapture) of the church as Matthew 24:30-31. Jesus could send forth his angels at that time in order to help guide "caught up" (raptured) believers in myriad different places in the sky all around the globe to the one place in the sky (above Jerusalem) where the returned Jesus will be.

Biblewriter said in post 5:

Meeting us “In the air” is significantly different from standing “on the Mount of Olives.”

One will simply happen before the other, at the same coming.

Biblewriter said in post 5:

There is no way that “every eye” could see something that will take place “in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye.”

The only thing that will happen in the twinkling of an eye at Jesus' 2nd coming will be the resurrection (of the dead) and the changing (of the living) bodies of obedient believers into immortal bodies (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53). Other aspects of the 2nd coming will occur before and after that. The first thing visible to occur at the 2nd coming will be the light from the sun and moon temporarily being blocked from reaching the surface of the earth (Matthew 24:29). And there will be a meteorite shower, falling "stars" (Matthew 24:29). Then the sign of Jesus (possibly the Cross) will appear in the sky, and the world will mourn when it realizes that it's the true Jesus who's coming back (Matthew 24:30). Then the world will see Jesus in the clouds of the sky (Matthew 24:30). And the people of the world will wail (Revelation 1:7), knowing in their spirits that Jesus is coming in wrath (2 Thessalonians 1:7-9).

But before the wrath of the 2nd coming begins (Revelation 19:15-21), all the souls of the dead in Christ, who will all come back with him from the 3rd heaven at his 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:14-15), will descend to the earth and their bodies will be resurrected (1 Thessalonians 4:16, Revelation 20:4-6). Then they and all those in Christ who survived the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 on the earth (those who will still be "alive and remain") will be raptured (caught up together, gathered together) as high as the clouds of the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17, Matthew 24:31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8).

At that meeting, Jesus will judge everyone in the church (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27) by their works (2 Corinthians 5:10, Romans 2:6-8, Luke 12:45-48, Matthew 25:19-30). And then Jesus will marry in the clouds the obedient part of the church (Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-12), those in the church (of all times) who "overcame" to the end (Revelation 3:5, Revelation 2:26). They will then mount white horses and come back down from the sky (the first heaven) with Jesus (Revelation 19:14) as he defeats the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) and all the world's armies (Revelation 19:15-21). Jesus will then make the marriage supper of Revelation 19:9 for the resurrected and married obedient part of the church in the earthly Jerusalem (Isaiah 25:6-9; 1 Corinthians 15:54). Jesus and the obedient part of the church will then reign on the earth for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29).

*******

Biblewriter said in post 6:

In Matthew 13, the wicked are taken “from among the just.”

Matthew 13:40-42 refers to the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11-14), after the future millennium and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7-10), when the unsaved will be cast into the lake of fire (Revelation 20:15). In Matthew 13:43, the kingdom of the Father is after the great white throne judgment, when a new earth (i.e. a new surface of the earth) will be created and God the Father will descend from heaven in the literal city of New Jerusalem to live with the church on the new earth (Revelation 21:1-3).

*******

Biblewriter said in post 7:

In the first passage He comes to receive His own to Himself.

That's right.

John 14
2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Note that there's no "take you back" (somewhere) in John 14:3, but rather a "receive you unto myself".

John 14:2 means that one of the reasons that Jesus left was to prepare a place for the church in the literal city of New Jerusalem, the Father's house in heaven (Revelation 21:2-3). John 14:3 means that Jesus' leaving to prepare a place for the church means that he's not done with the church, but will come back to it. John 14:3 means that the church will be received to Jesus where he will be first at his 2nd coming, which will be in the sky (1 Thessalonians 4:17), before he lands on the earth at his 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Matthew 24:30-31, Zechariah 14:3-21), which won't occur until immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

The church will live in its place in New Jerusalem (Revelation 21:24 to 22:5) on the new earth (Revelation 21:1-3) sometime after the millennium and other events are over (Revelation 20:7-15). For during the millennium, the bodily resurrected church will be ruling on the present earth with the returned Jesus (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29, Zechariah 14:3-21).

Also, the church has already come to the Father's house, New Jerusalem, which is currently in heaven, in the spiritual sense of coming under the New Covenant (Hebrews 12:22-24, Galatians 4:24-26, Matthew 26:28). Also, the souls of obedient people in the church go to the Father's house when they die, for their souls go into heaven to be with Jesus when they die (Philippians 1:21,23; 2 Corinthians 5:8). And they go into paradise (Luke 23:43), which is in heaven (2 Corinthians 12:2b,4), in the city of New Jerusalem (Revelation 2:7 and Revelation 22:2).

Biblewriter said in post 7:

The most significant of these is “Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.” (Revelation 3:10)

The 7 epistles to 7 churches in Revelation chapters 2-3 were sent to 7 literal, first century AD local church congregations in 7 cities in the Roman province of "Asia" (Revelation 1:11) (what's today western Turkey).

Revelation 3:10 meant that the literal, first century AD local church congregation in the city of Philadelphia (Revelation 3:7) in the Roman province of "Asia" (Revelation 1:11) would be kept safe from a persecution which came upon all the Roman world during the time of the Roman emperor Domitian. For the apostle John saw his Revelation vision (Revelation 1:1) near the end of Domitian's reign (Irenaeus, Against Heresies 5:30:3c), and Domitian persecuted the church toward the end of his reign. The righteous, literal, first century AD local church congregation in the city of Smyrna (Revelation 2:8) in the Roman province of "Asia" (Revelation 1:11) had to suffer and die in that persecution over a period of 10 literal days (Revelation 2:10).

The first century AD church in Philadelphia didn't have to be taken out of the world to be kept safe from (Greek: "ek") that persecution. For, as Jesus prayed for the church in general: "I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from (ek) the evil" (John 17:15,20). Also, the first century AD church in Philadelphia didn't have to be removed from time itself, or from the earth, in order to be kept from the "hour" (or the "time") of that persecution, just as, for example, a student in a classroom who has been excused from taking a test doesn't have to be removed from time itself, or from the classroom, in order to be excused from that time of testing. For he can be made to sit at his desk reading during that time, which won't be a time of testing for him.

Also, the first century AD persecution of Revelation 3:10 (and Revelation 2:10) was only "world"-wide in the sense of the Roman "world" (cf. Luke 2:1). So the subsequent reference to those on the "earth" in Revelation 3:10 should be understood as those Christians living on the earth during that time in the Roman Empire, as opposed to those Christians who had already died and gone to heaven (cf. 2 Corinthians 5:8, Philippians 1:21,23).

Biblewriter said in post 7:

But essentially every argument they produce is one that fails to take into account the marked differences between the scriptures about our Lord’s coming in vengeance to judge the world and his coming in blessing to receive His own to Himself.

He simply will receive the church to himself in the sky before he starts his vengeance on the unsaved. At the same coming. It's that simple.

 

[tranquil]

The closest I can come to reconciling these blatant discrepancies is to posit that one set of passages refers to the rapture and the other set of passages refers to the physical coming of Christ to return to the planet. But there are still problems. For example, in each set of passages the allusion to the "thief" is used, which makes it difficult to dismiss the fact that they may be talking about the same event.

I have been puzzled by these contradictions for a long while. The dilemma is difficult. Thoughts?

In the 1st half of the trib:
At the beginning, Babylon falls.
The Philadelphia church flees Babylon after it has fallen. This is what people call the "rapture". It is not a cosmic vacuum cleaner, it is the church fleeing Babylon. They are gathered in the wilderness, God has made a wedding feast of Babylon. (They are gathered because they fled Babylon, not because Jesus made them "vanish".)

The mark of the beast is offered to those who stay in Babylon (the kingdom) whose mortal head wound was cured. The Laodiceans are deceived into worshiping a false god because they didn't love the truth - and so, went after a false god, the false prophet/ AC.

They are given 1260 days to repent. This is Jacob's trouble, the church is playing the harlot. Rev 2

21 And I gave her time to repent of her sexual immorality, and she did not repent.[f] 22 Indeed I will cast her into a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of their[g] deeds. 23 I will kill her children with death, and all the churches shall know that I am He who searches the minds and hearts. And I will give to each one of you according to your works.

At the middle point, at the Trumpets, Christ arrives. ("Killing her children with death" is Trumpet 3, Wormwood.) And here's the thing that I get mocked for saying, but it is what the Bible says. And I think this is the crux of your confusion.

The middle point of the 7 yr trib is the start of the millenium and it starts off with Israel NOT having a king.

Hosea 3

The Lord said to me, “Go, show your love to your wife again, though she is loved by another man and is an adulteress. Love her as the Lord loves the Israelites, though they turn to other gods and love the sacred raisin cakes.”
2 So I bought her for fifteen shekels of silver and about a homer and a lethek of barley. 3 Then I told her, “You are to live with me many days; you must not be a prostitute or be intimate with any man, and I will behave the same way toward you.”
4 For the Israelites will live many days without king or prince, without sacrifice or sacred stones, without ephod or household gods. 5 Afterward the Israelites will return and seek the Lord their God and David their king. They will come trembling to the Lord and to his blessings in the last days.

God "buys" Israel, the harlot back at the start of the millenium (2016/2017), but He is "hiding His face" from them for the last half of the trib. In this part, the Laodiceans that had taken the mark are sent into the wilderness forcibly, as all worldly governments are destroyed, some of which will be reborn into the Satanic empire.

In the 1st half, the Philadelphia church goes into the wilderness to seek Christ semi-voluntarily.

In the 2nd half, the Philadelphia church gets to be with Christ in the millenial kingdom (heaven on earth), who has arrived. The Laodicean church is forced into the wilderness and doesn't have a king for "many days"/ the Rev. 12 woman that flees into the wilderness for 1260 days. The message Christ is relaying at Armageddon, the 6th bowl judgment, is to the Laodicean church who has been in the wilderness.

I'd recommend looking at Hosea in particular.

 

[zeke37]

In the 1st half of the trib:
At the beginning, Babylon falls.
The Philadelphia church flees Babylon after it has fallen. This is what people call the "rapture". It is not a cosmic vacuum cleaner, it is the church fleeing Babylon. They are gathered in the wilderness, God has made a wedding feast of Babylon. (They are gathered because they fled Babylon, not because Jesus made them "vanish".)

The mark of the beast is offered to those who stay in Babylon (the kingdom) whose mortal head wound was cured. The Laodiceans are deceived into worshiping a false god because they didn't love the truth -
and so, went after a false god, the false prophet/ AC.

They are given 1260 days to repent. This is Jacob's trouble, the church is playing the harlot. Rev 2
At the middle point, at the Trumpets, Christ arrives. ("Killing her children with death" is Trumpet 3, Wormwood.) And here's the thing that I get mocked for saying, but it is what the Bible says. And I think this is the crux of your confusion.

The middle point of the 7 yr trib is the start of the millenium and it starts off with Israel NOT having a king.

Hosea 3
God "buys" Israel, the harlot back at the start of the millenium (2016/2017), but He is "hiding His face" from them for the last half of the trib. In this part, the Laodiceans that had taken the mark are sent into the wilderness forcibly, as all worldly governments are destroyed, some of which will be reborn into the Satanic empire.

In the 1st half, the Philadelphia church goes into the wilderness to seek Christ semi-voluntarily.

In the 2nd half, the Philadelphia church gets to be with Christ in the millenial kingdom (heaven on earth), who has arrived. The Laodicean church is forced into the wilderness and doesn't have a king for "many days"/ the Rev. 12 woman that flees into the wilderness for 1260 days. The message Christ is relaying at Armageddon, the 6th bowl judgment, is to the Laodicean church who has been in the wilderness.

I'd recommend looking at Hosea in particular.

I did not get that, from what u posted

the Lord does not return until the 7th trump
"time of the dead" "judgement" "reward" "time of wrath"

and I do not think there is anything semi-voluntary about His gathering

 

[keras]

I believe that there are two Days of the Lord. The first when He comes in vengeance and wrath, trampling the nations -Hab.3:12 and Isaiah 63:1-6 He is not seen by the world at that time; Psalm 18:11, but note it is this event that 'splatters His garments with blood'.
He comes this time as 'the Son of Man', but at the Return in glory, [years later] He comes with blood splattered garments, as the 'Word of God'.
What all you prophecy seekers should be aware of and 'not in the dark' about is this soon to happen Day of wrath. Psalm 83 tells us who will trigger this terrible Day, by their attack on Israel and the dramatic result of it. Other prophesies explain what the Lord will use to destroy His enemies, fire from the heavens, irrefutably told to us in Isaiah 30:26, as a coronal mass ejection sunstrike, that will affect all the earth, virtually destroying all our modern infrastructure.
It is this shocking disaster that enables the One World Govt to be established.
logostelos.info

 

[Bible2]

zeke37 said in post 15:

the Lord does not return until the 7th trump
"time of the dead" "judgement" "reward" "time of wrath"

Regarding the 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:15-19), note that it doesn't refer to any coming of Jesus. Instead, Revelation 11:15 refers to the future point in time (Revelation 4:1b) when Jesus will take ultimate, legal, physical authority over the earth, away from Satan (cf. Luke 4:5-7) and Satan's fallen angels (Ephesians 6:12), and away from the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) (Revelation 13:4-18, cf. Revelation 12:9) and the Antichrist's 10 kings (Revelation 17:12-13). It won't be until a little later that Jesus will take de facto, physical control of the earth at his 2nd coming and during the subsequent millennium (Revelation 19:11 to 20:6).

Jesus' 2nd coming won't occur immediately after the sounding of the tribulation's 7th trumpet and the declaration of the legal replacement of the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5 year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-18, Revelation 12:6,14) with Jesus' reign (Revelation 11:15). For a "time" (Revelation 11:18) can last awhile (cf. Revelation 12:14). (It's like if someone said "It's time to sell this house"; this doesn't mean that it will get sold immediately.) The only part of Revelation 11:18 that will happen immediately after the 7th trumpet sounds is "thy wrath is come", for the plagues of the vials (Revelation 16), the tribulation's final stage, will come out of the 7th trumpet's heavenly-temple opening (Revelation 11:19, Revelation 15:5 to 16:1).

So the 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:15-19), even though it will be the last trumpet to sound during the tribulation, won't be the resurrection "last trump" of 1 Corinthians 15:52. The latter won't sound until after the entire tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 is over, at Jesus' 2nd coming (Matthew 24:29-31; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16), which won't occur until Revelation 19, and which is when the church will be resurrected (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-54; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16).

Before the 2nd coming, the tribulation's final, Revelation 16 stage could last for 75 days. For the first vial in Revelation 16 could be poured out immediately after the 1,260 days of the Antichrist's worldwide reign, which 1,260 days could begin when the abomination of desolation (possibly an android image of the Antichrist) is set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem (Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31,36). And Jesus could return on the 1,335th day after the setting up of the abomination of desolation (Daniel 12:11-12, Revelation 16:15). An analogy for the possible 75-day vials-delay between Jesus taking legal possession of the earth (Revelation 11:15) and his return to take de facto, physical possession of it (Revelation chapters 19-20) would be someone in New York legally inheriting a house in California 75 days before he moves there to live in that house.

At Jesus' 2nd coming, he will resurrect and judge only the church (1 Corinthians 15:21-23; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, Psalms 50:3-6, cf. Mark 13:27), and then he will marry the obedient part of the church (Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-12). Then Revelation 19:11-21 will occur. So both the resurrection and the rewarding of the church spoken of in Revelation 11:18, as well as the destroying of the destroyers of the earth spoken of in Revelation 11:18, could occur 75 days after the 7th trumpet's sounding. And because a "time" can last awhile (cf. Revelation 12:14), this would still be well within the "time" referred to in Revelation 11:18.

Everyone not resurrected and judged at Jesus' 2nd coming won't be resurrected and judged until Revelation 20:11-15, which won't occur until sometime after the returned Jesus and the bodily resurrected church have reigned on the earth for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29). Both resurrections and judgments can still occur within Revelation 11:18's "time". For the original Greek word (kairos, G2540) translated there as "time" can refer to even quite a long period. For example, the same Greek word is used in 2 Corinthians 6:2 to refer to the "time" of people getting saved, which has been going on for some 2,000 years.

 

[Bible2]

keras said in post 16:

Psalm 83 tells us who will trigger this terrible Day, by their attack on Israel and the dramatic result of it.

If Psalms 83 wasn't referring to a threat against Israel in the time of Asaph (the author of Psalms 83), but to some future event, it may not happen until the Gog/Magog attack on Israel (Ezekiel chapters 38-39), which won't happen until sometime after the future millennium (Revelation 20:7-10).

It's sometimes claimed that the Gog/Magog attack on Israel will happen in our time today. But the Gog/Magog attack on Israel (Ezekiel chapters 38-39) will occur when there will be no defensive walls or fear of attack in Israel whatsoever (Ezekiel 38:11). This is the exact opposite of today's situation, when Israel is filled with very high defensive walls, and is in constant fear of attack. But at the beginning of the future millennium, all present-day weapons of war will be destroyed, and they won't be allowed to be remade during the millennium (Micah 4:3-4). That's why after the millennium, the Gog/Magog armies will employ only rudimentary, wooden weapons like bows and arrows, spears, shields, and clubs (Ezekiel 39:9), which, after the defeat of the Gog/Magog armies, will be able to be used as convenient firewood by the people living in Israel at that time, instead of them having to go out and collect or cut down firewood from the forest (Ezekiel 39:10).

The Gog in Revelation 20:8 is the same as in Ezekiel chapters 38-39: an individual human leader whose personal name is "Gog" (Ezekiel 38:3). He could be born near the end of the millennium, and he will be killed and buried at the end of the Gog/Magog attack (Ezekiel 39:11). The Gog/Magog armies are defeated by fire from heaven in both accounts of the attack (Ezekiel 38:22, Revelation 20:9). While the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11-15) will occur subsequent to the defeat of the Gog/Magog attack (Revelation 20:7-15), nothing requires (as is sometimes claimed) that the great white throne judgment has to happen immediately after the defeat of the attack. For there will be at least 7 years (Ezekiel 39:9b) between the defeat of the Gog/Magog attack and the great white throne judgment.

Also, the Gog/Magog attack won't have to (as is sometimes claimed) involve only the nations listed in Ezekiel chapters 38-39. Those nations could be just a sampling. For the "nations" (ethnos), or peoples, who will be involved in the Gog/Magog attack will come from all over the earth (Revelation 20:8). They will still be physically part of Jesus' worldwide kingdom, still legally under his rule, just as they had been during the preceding millennium (Psalms 72:8-11, Psalms 66:3, Psalms 2). But after the millennium, they will be deceived by Satan into committing the attack (Revelation 20:7-10).

Also, while the Gog/Magog attack on Israel won't occur until after the future millennium (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39), Israel could suffer a different attack at the start of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, which attack could result in Israel's total defeat and occupation (Daniel 11:15-17).

And Jerusalem could be attacked in the future at least 3 times before the millennium: once near the start of the future tribulation (Daniel 11:22), then again mid-tribulation (Daniel 11:31), and then at the tribulation's end (Daniel 11:45), right before Jesus' 2nd coming and the start of the millennium (Zechariah 14:2-21).

 

[keras]

Bible2, your lengthy posts fail to convince me. I trust in a careful reading of all scripture, to hypothesise as you do about Eze 38 & 39 taking place at the end of the Mill, is just wrong. Gog is mentioned in Rev 20, simply as a type and the attackers come from all over the world then, not just the peoples specified in Ezekiel.
Psalm 83 IS an very near future event, those nations listed have already formed an alliance - the Organization for Islamic Co-operation; The OIC.

 

[Another Lazarus]

u better read this
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