Contradictions in the Second Coming

[ananda]

That's only when it's obviously referring to those things in the gospels The "sea" in Revelation is not specified. Revelation speaks from a global point of view - the plagues are universal. So for those two reasons the sea in Revelation is universal as well No. The eschatological discourse in Matthew does not have to address everything - Luke's covers the destruction of the temple. Christ shows he is talking about the end of the age by using the word "end" a number of times in his Mt. 24 discourse to refer back to the original question his disciples asked him. I covered this in an earlier post - if you'd like, I can repost it.

A link will be fine, thanks!

Oh, I think that's quite a stretch. You're claiming that the Apostle Paul placed the abomination of desolation in the temple which cannot be the case. If Paul did that, he would be the antichrist! He obviously isn't.

Why obviously? I believe that Pharisee Paul's entrance into the Temple with Trophimus was the abomination which caused its desolation. Remember, as the Apostle John wrote, anti-messiah was already in the world, at the time of the writing of his epistle (1Jn 4:3).

 

[Anto9us]

I don't believe it

I'm outta here

 

[bibletruth469]

Indeed. There are numerous passages here which have to be taken into account. No, it would have to be the actual day of Christ's return (whether the rapture or the physical return). The passage cross-references with Luke 17 and proves it is actually talking about the very point in time Christ is revealed: " 26 Just as it was in the days of Noah, so too it will be in the days of the Son of Man. 27 They were eating and drinking, and marrying and being given in marriage, until the day Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed all of them. 28Likewise, just as it was in the days of Lot: they were eating and drinking, buying and selling, planting and building, 29 but on the day that Lot left Sodom, it rained fire and sulfur from heaven and destroyed all of them 30 —it will be like that on the day that the Son of Man is revealed. " Lu. 17:26-30 (NRSV) Oh boy, are you certain? I'm not sure about that at all! Maybe Christ is referring back to vv. 30-31 where he sends his angels to gather his elect? That would be the physical second coming, however; and I'm currently positing that this verse belong to the rapture. Why would it be talking about the judgment instead of the rapture? Right. I am suggesting that the rapture is the day the abomination of desolation is set up in the rebuilt Jewish temple. Read the verses I posted in my previous posts for more detail

I used to believe that it was a rapture passage Matt 24:40-42. " then shall two be in the field ; the one shall be taken ,and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill ; the one taken and the other left. Notice it says the word 'then' something happens after. Back up to vs 39" and knew not until the flood came, and took them all away...". I really believe that this is the judgement time for the believers and unbelievers. One left to populate the 1000 year kingdom and the other to be cast out.

 

[Achilles6129]

A link will be fine, thanks!

Sorry I guess I didn't post those particular passages in this thread. Let me go ahead and post them now:

"3 When he was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will this be, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”" Mt. 24:3 (NRSV)

" 6 And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars; see that you are not alarmed; for this must take place, but the end is not yet." Mt. 24:6 (NRSV)

"13 But the one who endures to the end will be saved. 14 And this good news[d] of the kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the world, as a testimony to all the nations; and then the end will come." Mt. 24:13-14 (NRSV)

These passages show that Christ is speaking of the actual end of the age during his eschatological discourse in Matthew. In addition, the passage about tribulation is nearly a direct quote from Daniel 12:1 which is also talking about the end:

" 21 For at that time there will be great suffering, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be. " Mt. 24:21 (NRSV)

"“At that time Michael, the great prince, the protector of your people, shall arise. There shall be a time of anguish, such as has never occurred since nations first came into existence. But at that time your people shall be delivered, everyone who is found written in the book." Dan. 12:1 (NRSV)

In addition, the statement in Matthew 24:21 does not fit with AD 70 because as terrible as that event was, surely there has been worse suffering since. For example, I would say that the Holocaust was worse than the events of AD 70. What Christ is talking about here is unprecedented and so bad that there has never been the like nor will there ever be again.

Why obviously? I believe that Pharisee Paul's entrance into the Temple with Trophimus was the abomination which caused its desolation. Remember, as the Apostle John wrote, anti-messiah was already in the world, at the time of the writing of his epistle (1Jn 4:3).

Right, but the problem is you have no Biblical evidence to support that. Paul was a preacher of the gospel and a former Jewish rabbi - why in the world would he abominate the temple, the place where he was going to worship? It doesn't make sense, not to mention it has no Biblical evidence supporting it.

 

[Achilles6129]

I used to believe that it was a rapture passage Matt 24:40-42. " then shall two be in the field ; the one shall be taken ,and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill ; the one taken and the other left. Notice it says the word 'then' something happens after. Back up to vs 39" and knew not until the flood came, and took them all away...". I really believe that this is the judgement time for the believers and unbelievers. One left to populate the 1000 year kingdom and the other to be cast out.

Or maybe it's talking about judgment time as in the beginning of the tribulation. For example, the rapture happens and then the tribulation begins. This would make sense of Christ's statements in Luke 17:22ff, where he clearly gives commands to his disciples after the day that the Son of Man is revealed - meaning that the physical return cannot be yet.

 

[Bible2]

Achilles6129 said in post 84:

"3 When he was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will this be, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”" Mt. 24:3 (NRSV)

" 6 And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars; see that you are not alarmed; for this must take place, but the end is not yet." Mt. 24:6 (NRSV)

"13 But the one who endures to the end will be saved. 14 And this good news[d] of the kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the world, as a testimony to all the nations; and then the end will come." Mt. 24:13-14 (NRSV)

These passages show that Christ is speaking of the actual end of the age during his eschatological discourse in Matthew.

Matthew 24:6,13,14 refer only to the end of the future tribulation of Matthew 24 and Revelation chapters 6 to 18.

While the apostles asked Jesus about the end of the age (Matthew 24:3), he didn't tell them that the end of the age would occur at the end of the tribulation, i.e. at his (post-trib) 2nd coming (Matthew 24:29-31), or when it would occur, just as he didn't tell them many other things during his ministry (John 16:12). It wouldn't be until much later that he would show the apostle John, through the vision in the book of Revelation, that the end of the age, when all the unsaved will be cast into the lake of fire (Matthew 13:40, Matthew 25:41, Revelation 20:15), won't occur until over 1,000 years after Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:15).

*******

Achilles6129 said in post 85:

Or maybe it's talking about judgment time as in the beginning of the tribulation.

Note that nothing requires that the entire future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 will be God's judgment or wrath, or that any part of the tribulation that will be his judgment or wrath will be directed against any of the saved people (1 Thessalonians 5:9) who will still be alive on the earth at that time (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6). Most of the tribulation could be only Satan's wrath working through evil people and natural forces to bring disaster on the earth, like when Satan was allowed to work through evil people and natural forces to bring disaster on righteous Job (Job 1:12-20), against whom God had no wrath.

The tribulation's first 5 seals (Revelation 6:1-11) won't be God's judgment or wrath, for after the first 4 seals, the martyrs of the 5th seal ask God when he's going to bring his judgment against the world (Revelation 6:10). And the killing of even more martyrs, which the 5th seal foretells will happen sometime after the 5th seal (Revelation 6:11), won't be God's judgment or wrath against those martyrs. So Jesus' unsealing the tribulation's seals (Revelation 6), the tribulation's first stage, doesn't mean that the events unsealed will be God's judgment or wrath, but that they will be permitted by God to happen at that time.

The tribulation's 6th seal (Revelation 6:12-14) will happen sometime before the day of the Lord (Joel 2:31, Revelation 6:12), whereas the day of the Lord/Christ (2 Thessalonians 2:2) will begin at his 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 1:7-8; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10), which won't happen until Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8). Similarly, the day of the Lord's wrath (Psalms 110:5) won't begin until Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:19-21).

So the people quoted at the 6th seal (Revelation 6:17), during only the first stage of the tribulation, could be just as mistaken as Job was when Job said that what was happening to him was God's wrath against him (Job 19:11). Just as what was happening to Job was actually Satan's wrath against him, not God's wrath, so the 6th seal could actually be Satan's wrath, not God's wrath. And just as the writer of the book of Job didn't go out of his way to correct Job's mistaken statement in Job 19:11, and just as the apostles John and Matthew didn't go out of their ways to correct the mistaken statements of the people they quoted in John 7:12b and Matthew 27:63a, so the apostle John could have not gone out of his way to correct the statement of the people he quoted in Revelation 6:17.

After the tribulation's 6th seal will occur its 7th seal (Revelation 8:1), out of which will come its 7 trumpets (Revelation 8:1-2). Note that nothing requires that any of the first 6 trumpets' events in Revelation chapters 8 and 9 will be God's wrath. The 5th trumpet's events will be the work of weird locust-like beings from the bottomless pit (Revelation 9:2-10) led by a fallen angel from the bottomless pit (Revelation 9:11). And the 6th trumpet's events to the end of Revelation 9 will be the work of weird horse-like beings led by 4 fallen angels previously bound at the Euphrates (Revelation 9:14-19). So even though good angels of God will sound the first 6 trumpets, this could be announcing God's allowing the wrath of Satan to destroy 1/3 of different things (Revelation 8:7-12, Revelation 9:15,18), just as Satan will subsequently, mid-tribulation, be allowed by God to cause 1/3 of the angels (i.e. the fallen angels) to be cast down to the earth permanently (Revelation 12:4,9).

Revelation chapters 8 and 9 will happen before the Antichrist's (the individual-man aspect of the beast's) future, literal 3.5-year worldwide Luciferian/Satanic reign (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9). And the events in Revelation chapters 8 and 9 could be used by Satan to help prepare the world to welcome that reign. For what he could do is first take great pleasure in causing the destruction in each event, but then claim that the destruction isn't from him, but from YHWH, and that YHWH is a cruel tyrant god who hates mankind and only wants to make it suffer, while he (Satan, as "Lucifer") only wants the best for mankind (cf. Mark 8:33b). In this way, he could deceive the world into turning away from YHWH and instead worshipping him (the dragon) and the Antichrist (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9). The Antichrist will utterly revile YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36).

After the Antichrist's literal 3.5-year reign (Revelation 13:5-7) is declared legally over at the sounding of the tribulation's 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:15), the 7 plagues of the 7 vials of God's wrath will come out of the heavenly-temple opening of the 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:19, Revelation 15:5 to 16:1). The vials will then be poured out on the Antichrist's followers as God's judgment for their receiving the Antichrist's mark and worshipping his image (Revelation 16:2), and for their killing of people in the church (Revelation 16:6-7, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

During the Antichrist's worldwide reign, people in the church will be hated and killed in every nation for refusing to renounce the name of Jesus Christ (Matthew 24:9-13). They will be beheaded for refusing to renounce the witness of Jesus Christ (Revelation 20:4), for refusing to accept the antichrist lies that Jesus himself isn't the Christ (1 John 2:22), and that Christ himself isn't in the flesh (2 John 1:7). They will be beheaded for refusing to renounce the sound doctrine of the Bible, the Word of God (Revelation 20:4; 2 Timothy 3:15 to 4:4), for refusing to depart from the Biblical faith and give heed instead to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils (1 Timothy 4:1-2). They will be beheaded for refusing to worship the Antichrist's image (Revelation 20:4, Revelation 13:15). And all of this will be Satan's wrath against the church (Revelation 12:17), not God's wrath, for the church isn't appointed to God's wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9).

Even when God's wrath comes in the 7 vials (Revelation 16), the tribulation's final stage, because the church isn't appointed to God's wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9), none of the vials will be directed at any of those in the church who will still be alive on the earth at that time, still waiting for Jesus' coming as a thief (Revelation 16:15). Instead, they will go into protective chambers which they will have prepared for themselves on the earth (Isaiah 26:20), just as Noah and his family went into the protective ark which they had prepared for themselves on the earth (Genesis 7:11,13).

Jesus will return right after the 7th and last vial is completed (Revelation 16:17,19, Revelation 19:2-21, Matthew 24:29-30), and he will bring the 2nd-coming wrath of God on the unsaved world (Revelation 19:15-21). But before that 2nd-coming wrath begins, the church will be caught up together/gathered together (raptured) (1 Thessalonians 4:17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:31) into the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17).

 

[Bible2]

Achilles6129 said in post 85:

For example, the rapture happens and then the tribulation begins.

Note that nothing in the Bible teaches or requires a pre-tribulation rapture of the church. Instead, the Bible makes clear that Jesus won't come and gather together (rapture) the church until immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8). That's why the marriage of the church doesn't happen until Revelation 19:7, in connection with Jesus' 2nd coming and the bodily resurrection of the church at that time (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16). Matthew 24:30-31 refers to the same 2nd coming of Jesus and gathering together (rapture) of the church as 2 Thessalonians 2:1, which refers to the same 2nd coming of Jesus and catching up together (rapture) of the church as 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17.

Jesus won't return and gather together (rapture) the church until sometime after there's a falling away (an apostasy) in the church, and the Antichrist sits in a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem and proclaims himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:1-4, Daniel 11:31,36, Revelation 11:1-2, Revelation 13:4-8), and the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) is set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of the 3rd Jewish temple (Matthew 24:15-31, Daniel 11:31). For when Jesus returns to gather together (and marry) the church he will destroy the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:1,8, Revelation 19:7,20). Before Jesus returns, the church will have to go through the future, literal 3.5 years of the Antichrist's worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-31).

At Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:30), the church will be resurrected and caught up together/gathered together (raptured) (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:31), not to remove the church from the earth (Proverbs 10:30, John 17:15,20), but to take the church only as high as the clouds of the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17).

At that meeting, Jesus will judge everyone in the church (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27) by their works (2 Corinthians 5:10, Romans 2:6-8, Luke 12:45-48, Matthew 25:19-30). And then Jesus will marry in the clouds the obedient part of the church (Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-12), those in the church (of all times) who "overcame" to the end (Revelation 3:5, Revelation 2:26). They will then mount white horses and come back down from the sky (the first heaven) with Jesus (Revelation 19:14) as he defeats the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) and all the world's armies (Revelation 19:15-21). Jesus will then make the marriage supper of Revelation 19:9 for the resurrected and married obedient part of the church in the earthly Jerusalem (Isaiah 25:6-9; 1 Corinthians 15:54). Jesus and the obedient part of the church will then reign on the earth for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29).

Achilles6129 said in post 85:

This would make sense of Christ's statements in Luke 17:22ff, where he clearly gives commands to his disciples after the day that the Son of Man is revealed - meaning that the physical return cannot be yet.

Luke 17:26-37 and Matthew 24:37-41 refer to what will happen at Jesus' 2nd coming, "when the Son of man is revealed" (Luke 17:30), "the coming of the Son of man" (Matthew 24:37,39), which Jesus had just finished saying won't happen until immediately after the future tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31). Those "taken" at the 2nd coming (Luke 17:34-36, Matthew 24:40-41) will be unsaved people who will be taken to where they will be killed and birds will eat their dead bodies (Luke 17:36-37; Matthew 24:28, cf. Job 39:30b; Revelation 19:21). The Greek word "paralambano" ("taken": Luke 17:34-36, Matthew 24:40-41) can be used to refer to being taken to another place to be killed (John 19:16-18).

Those "left" where they are at the 2nd coming (Luke 17:34-36, Matthew 24:40-41) will include unsaved people who will be forced to come up annually to worship the returned Jesus in Jerusalem during the millennium (Zechariah 14:16-19). These unsaved people will have to be ruled with a rod of iron by Jesus and the bodily resurrected church during the millennium (Revelation 2:26-29, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 20:4-6, Psalms 2, Psalms 66:3, Psalms 72:8-11). And their descendants will be deceived by Satan after the millennium is over into committing the Gog/Magog rebellion (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39).

Before the millennium, at Jesus' 2nd coming, those in the church will neither be "taken" and killed, nor "left" where they are, but will be "gathered together" (raptured) (Matthew 24:31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1) into the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17). The purpose of this rapture meeting will be so that those in the church can be judged by Jesus (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27) and married to Jesus (Revelation 19:7) in the sky, before Jesus descends from the sky (the first heaven) with the obedient part of church to bring his 2nd-coming wrath on the unsaved world (Revelation 19:14 to 20:3).

So the 2nd coming will be like "the days of Noah" (Matthew 24:37) and "the days of Lot" (Luke 17:28,30) in that just as Noah went into the ark before the Flood, and Lot went out from Sodom before it was destroyed, so the church will be raptured into the sky at the 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, Matthew 24:30-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7) before Jesus begins the 2nd-coming wrath (Revelation 19:15 to 20:3, Luke 17:26-30, Matthew 24:37-39).

Achilles6129 said in post 85:

This would make sense of Christ's statements in Luke 17:22ff, where he clearly gives commands to his disciples after the day that the Son of Man is revealed - meaning that the physical return cannot be yet.

Luke 17:31, like Luke 21:28, can refer to what believers should do when the signs accompanying Jesus' (post-trib) 2nd coming begin to occur (Luke 21:25-28, Matthew 24:29-30), just as Luke 21:25-27 can refer to how unbelievers will react when they see those awful signs (Matthew 24:29-30).