To whom and why God gave the Sabbaths?

Ken Rank · Oct 24, 2016

klutedavid said:
Hello Ken.

This thread has some depth to it, I will reply to your post in a few shorter posts.

This statement of yours is an antithesis of what the scripture actually teaches, Ken.

John 18
36 Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, then My servants would be fighting so that I would not be handed over to the Jews; but as it is, My kingdom is not of this realm.”

The kingdom is not on earth, this is the heavenly and the true kingdom. So Ken
I require you to decide whether you accept this or not?

Your looking for a temporal fulfillment of prophecy, you need to see the deeper spiritual fulfillment, the eternal fulfillment.

2 Corinthians 4
18 while we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen; for the things which are seen are temporal, but the things which are not seen are eternal.

David's throne was but a poor reflection of the reality of the eternal, and heavenly throne.

Ephesians 1
20 which He brought about in Christ, when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places, 21 far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come. 22 And He put all things in subjection under His feet, and gave Him as head over all things to the church, 23 which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all.

There is Jesus sitting on the throne, the heavenly throne of David. Everything has been subjected to Jesus.

Let Peter explain this fulfillment of the descendant of David sitting on the throne, Ken.

Acts 2
30 And so, because he was a prophet and knew that God had sworn to him with an oath to seat one of his descendants on his throne, 31 he looked ahead and spoke of the resurrection of the Christ, that He was neither abandoned to Hades, nor did His flesh suffer decay. 32 This Jesus God raised up again, to which we are all witnesses. 33 Therefore having been exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He has poured forth this which you both see and hear. 34 For it was not David who ascended into heaven, but he himself says: ‘The Lord said to my Lord, sit at My right hand, until I make Your enemies a footstool for Your feet.'

Jesus is the fulfillment of everything, all things have been fulfilled in Christ.

I have interest in the topic here... the full gospel, the restoration of all things, needs a proper definition and working through it to find one with you would be a good thing. However, that is another topic, we have rabbit trailed enough. In this thread I am willing to discuss the covenant issue because it relates the the Sabbath which this thread is directly about. I will say, my understanding of Yeshua's work goes beyond the typical sin/eternal life aspect. That is one facet of MANY that his work addresses. Another thread....

Ken Rank · Oct 24, 2016

klutedavid said:
The Jews were the direct descendants of Abraham, Jesus was circumcised and so was Paul. Abraham was commanded by God to circumcise his offspring.

Genesis 17
12 And every male among you who is eight days old shall be circumcised throughout your generations, a servant who is born in the house or who is bought with money from any foreigner, who is not of your descendants.
13 A servant who is born in your house or who is bought with your money shall surely be circumcised; thus shall My Covenant be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.

This is an everlasting covenant, Ken. Do you deny that God established an everlasting covenant with Abrahamand his descendants. If the Sabbath is an everlasting sign, then so is the circumcision in the flesh. You can't have
your cake and eat it to. You are caught in between a rock and a hard place on this point, Ken.

Genesis 17
14 But an uncircumcised male who is not circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin, that person shall be cut off from his people; he has broken My covenant.

This why Jesus and Paul were circumcised, all descendants of Abraham were commanded to be circumcised. This the eternal covenant God made with Abraham and his descendants.

I am not a descendant of Abraham, therefore God has not commanded the Gentiles to be physically circumcised. Alas, the Gentile nations were never commanded to honor the Sabbath either.

You have been taught that God was speaking directly to you at Mt Sinai.

Go was speaking to the nation of Israel at Mt Sinai, the Jews are the direct
descendants of Abraham. Therefore they are circumcised and they obey
the Sabbath.

I am not going to focus on minute aspects of the Torah in this thread. This is a Sabbath thread that took a little detour between you and I into the covenant. I left out part of Ephesians 2 that relate to circumcision because, while important, the rabbit trail was, "is Ephesians 2 stating that we WERE gentiles and are NOW fellow citizens of the Commonwealth of Israel?" We can start another thread another day and discussion circumcisions relation to the new covenant. I do not have the position you seem to think I do. Another thread....

Ken Rank · Oct 24, 2016

klutedavid said:
Hello Ken.

Still going, your post was complicated.

There is a difference between the earthly, physical kingdom of Israel, including the physical Sabbath day. And the heavenly kingdom that Christ rules. The old nation of Israel had an earthly king, this was a dull reflection of the heavenly kingdom. The heavenly kingdom has at its center the throne on which Christ sits.

The nation of Israel had an earthly temple, Christ is the heavenly temple. The old nation of Israel pursued a law of righteousness, we have the perfect righteousness of Christ. Old things have passed, all is new.

You are seated with Christ in the heavenly kingdom, already saved, and sealed with the Holy Spirit.

Ephesians 2
6 And raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus.

Ken, you are a new creation, a new creature in God's eyes. Your already sitting in the heavenly places, God has already done this for you. This is the work of God and we marvel and thank God for this.

2 Corinthians 5
17 Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.

All is new, for us the present earth and all it contains has passed. We have an eternal rest, an eternal Sabbath in Christ. The Christ is the sole focus of all our attention now. Old things have passed away and especially the Old Covenant that God established with the nation of Israel.

A solid statement by you, and a very good question, Ken.

I don't believe I am a Gentile, I am a Gentile, fact.

The New Covenant mentioned in the text (Hebrews 8:8-11) replaced the Old Covenant. I am not a member of the Old Covenant or even the New Covenant.

The God of the Gentiles never made any covenant with the Gentiles, we were never the covenant people. So where do the Gentiles look for their salvation?

Romans 3
29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also.

Genesis 12
3 And in you all the families of the earth will be blessed.

Psalm 22
All the ends of the earth will remember and turn to the Lord, and all the families of the nations will worship before You.

Isaiah 49
6 I will also make You a light of the nations so that My salvation may reach to the end of the earth.

Isaiah 60
3 Nations will come to your light, and kings to the brightness of your rising.

Acts 14
27 When they had arrived and gathered the church together, they began to report all things that God had done with them and how He had opened a door of faith to the Gentiles.

Acts 15
7 After there had been much debate, Peter stood up and said to them, “Brethren, you know that in the early days God made a choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles would hear the word of the gospel and believe."

Acts 28
28Therefore let it be known to you that this salvation of God has been sent to the Gentiles; they will also listen.

1 Peter 2
12 Keep your behavior excellent among the Gentiles, so that in the thing in which they slander you as evildoers, they may because of your good deeds, as they observe them, glorify God in the day of visitation.

We Gentiles have been grafted into Christ.

After reading your position, and I thank you for taking the time to do it, I simply don't see things as you do. There are a couple of issues David...

1. The word gentile historically is a pagan. That is how the word was defined when it was used first in our bibles. We continued using that word but the definition has morphed. We are now using a modern definition for a word that when first used, meant something else entirely. We do this... we think being "Adopted sons of God" means we were spiritual orphans whom God brought in and made part of His family. Well, there is SOME measure of truth within that thought, but it is not a complete thought and does not recognize the use of the word throughout history. A father might be a tent maker and he sees in his son the ability to possibly become a great tent maker. He would then "adopt" his own son, bring him into the family business and in the process the son would take part in the profit and take in a greater inheritance. Even as late as the Justinian Codes, we see adopted defined in this manner. A grandfather might even adopt his grandson. So, when we become an adopted son of God it is because God has brought us into the family in order to do the WORK OF THE FAMILY. An adopted son of God is being raised up within His family to do His work. We miss this when we apply the modern definition of the word. We are doing the same with a gentile. The Hebrew goyim means any nation other than Israel or anyone who serves a god other than YHWH. The Greek ethnos means the exact same thing. It is translated more times as gentiles when it is better understandable as nations. Here is one of many examples I can share:

Acts 9:15 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:

First, ethnos can be translated as gentiles, pagans, heathens, or nations. I would choose nations for this verse, you'll understand why in a moment. Second, we have two words translated as "and" in this verse, but it is two different Greek words. We see kai which is "and" and we see te which is "both" or "also." I think both works best, again, you'll understand in a moment. So, if I re-translate this verse I would do so as:

Acts 9:15 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Nations, and kings, both the children of Israel:

Now why would I do this. First of all Yeshua said, "I have not been sent BUT unto the lost sheep of the House of Israel." The most repeated prophesy David is the Northern Kingdom of Israel being called back from their exile. "In the place where I said unto them, you are not my people, there (the nations they were scattered into) you will be called Sons of the Living God." (Hosea 1:10) Salvation is for all, but Yeshua also said, "I have NO COME TO CALL THE RIGHTEOUS," I have come to call the sinners unto repentance." You need to get out a dictionary and define righteousness. Remember, Paul's "there is none righteous" is a quote from Psalms dealing with atheists. Anyway.... with this said, what is significant about Paul's commission? Simple... here is what Yeshua told the other disciples:

Matthew 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
Matthew 10:6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Right Ken... but Paul was the Apostle to the Gentiles. No sir... his commission was Yeshua quoting Jacob's blessing. I will put both of them together...

Acts 9:15 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Nations, and kings, both the children of Israel:

Genesis 35:11 And God said unto him, I am God Almighty: be fruitful and multiply; a nation and a company of nations shall be of thee, and kings shall come out of thy loins

Jacob's children, Israel, would become nations and kings and Paul was sent to the ethnos (nations) and kings. He was also sent to the lost sheep... Yeshua said he came for the lost sheep, he sent his disciples to the lost sheep, and Paul was doing the same.

There is another prophetic tie in but I lack the time to do it this morning. The famous phrase we use so much, 'times of the gentiles' when rolled back into Hebrew would be melo hagoyim, a 'multitude of nations' as it is translated over Ephraim when Jacob blesses him. In other words, the "times of the Gentiles" could and probably should be translated as "multitude (or fullness) of the nations" which ties the quote to Ephraim's blessing, and Ephraim, I can show you a couple of scores of times, is a poetic term for Israel in the nations, the lost sheep. There are HUNDREDS of verses I can share to make this point... literally hundreds... but the bottom line is simple.... Israel was scattered into the NATIONS (ethnos) and they became gentiles and pagans (ethnos) and they were being called OUT OF the nations which is why Paul said, "you WERE ethnos" and "you WERE aliens of the Commonwealth of Israel." And it is why he finished with, "But NOW through Christ you are no longer afar off" and "you are (NOW) fellow citizens with the saints." The context clearly tied to the word Commonwealth.

2. The "new" in "new covenant" is chadashah in Hebrew in Jeremiah 31. In Hebrews 8 it is kainos in Greek. When I look these up (starting in Hebrew) I see that chadashah means new, but that it is the adjective form of the verb that means "to renew." Since it is describing the covenant (a noun), then this adjective would mean, "renewed covenant." In the Greek the word kainos means "to make fresh, renew" and there is another word (nehos) which means "new in regards to age." In other words, while both kainos and nehos are translated as "new" in various places, kainos means "to renew" and nehos is "brand new." So, since kainos is used for "new covenant" in Hebrews 8 (where it is quoting Jer. 31) we see again the idea of "renewed covenant." There are differences, yes... like the Law taken from the stone and placed on the heart.... but this is the EVERLASTING COVENANT (see Psalm 105:8-10) that follows in a line that began with a promise first found in Genesis 3:15. Yeshua didn't come to create a new religion, or destroy everything that led to his arrival... that pointed to his arrival... he came to build upon it and fulfill the work. Now... everything is in place for the restoration of all things to happen... but it hasn't happened yet. We still age, decay and die (the wages of sin is death) and until the resurrection and perfecting of the saints... we can't say he has applied it all yet. So... much is left on the table.

Gotta run... sorry. I just don't have time this morning to finish the thoughts.

Ken Rank · Oct 24, 2016

klutedavid said:
We Gentiles have been grafted into Christ.

At which point you cease being a gentile (pagan, heathen). Besides, Isaiah 49:3 is a prophetic word that calls the coming Messiah, Israel. The covenant is made with Judah and Israel, that is what the Word of God states. Nowhere does it say the covenant is made with pagans, gentiles.

Bob S · Oct 24, 2016

klutedavid said:
Hello Ken.

Still going, your post was complicated.

There is a difference between the earthly, physical kingdom of Israel, including the physical Sabbath day. And the heavenly kingdom that Christ rules. The old nation of Israel had an earthly king, this was a dull reflection of the heavenly kingdom. The heavenly kingdom has at its center the throne on which Christ sits.

The nation of Israel had an earthly temple, Christ is the heavenly temple. The old nation of Israel pursued a law of righteousness, we have the perfect righteousness of Christ. Old things have passed, all is new.

You are seated with Christ in the heavenly kingdom, already saved, and sealed with the Holy Spirit.

Ephesians 2
6 And raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus.

Ken, you are a new creation, a new creature in God's eyes. Your already sitting in the heavenly places, God has already done this for you. This is the work of God and we marvel and thank God for this.

2 Corinthians 5
17 Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.

All is new, for us the present earth and all it contains has passed. We have an eternal rest, an eternal Sabbath in Christ. The Christ is the sole focus of all our attention now. Old things have passed away and especially the Old Covenant that God established with the nation of Israel.

A solid statement by you, and a very good question, Ken.

I don't believe I am a Gentile, I am a Gentile, fact.

The New Covenant mentioned in the text (Hebrews 8:8-11) replaced the Old Covenant. I am not a member of the Old Covenant or even the New Covenant.

The God of the Gentiles never made any covenant with the Gentiles, we were never the covenant people. So where do the Gentiles look for their salvation?

Romans 3
29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also.

Genesis 12
3 And in you all the families of the earth will be blessed.

Psalm 22
All the ends of the earth will remember and turn to the Lord, and all the families of the nations will worship before You.

Isaiah 49
6 I will also make You a light of the nations so that My salvation may reach to the end of the earth.

Isaiah 60
3 Nations will come to your light, and kings to the brightness of your rising.

Acts 14
27 When they had arrived and gathered the church together, they began to report all things that God had done with them and how He had opened a door of faith to the Gentiles.

Acts 15
7 After there had been much debate, Peter stood up and said to them, “Brethren, you know that in the early days God made a choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles would hear the word of the gospel and believe."

Acts 28
28Therefore let it be known to you that this salvation of God has been sent to the Gentiles; they will also listen.

1 Peter 2
12 Keep your behavior excellent among the Gentiles, so that in the thing in which they slander you as evildoers, they may because of your good deeds, as they observe them, glorify God in the day of visitation.

We Gentiles have been grafted into Christ.

Thank you for a great post. God has made covenants with man since the beginning. All were gentiles up and until the sons of Israel who are deemed Semites.

The Jews believe we gentiles do have a covenant and they refer to it as the Noahide covenant. That covenant was made with Noah and has been passed down through time. As we know God never restricted Noah about what he was to eat. We know from scripture and history that God also didn't require Noah to observe days. We have to rely on the writers and preservers to have been guided by God and He had Moses and whoever to tell all that was pertinent. Where scripture is mute on a subject it is not our place to insert our theories. We find some doing just that and it is always to try to prove preconceived beliefs.

Bob S · Oct 24, 2016

Mark 16:15
He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. Jesus made the new covenant available to all the World.

Paul confirms, Rom 11:
11 Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12 But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their full inclusion bring!

13 I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I take pride in my ministry 14 in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them. 15 For if their rejection brought reconciliation to the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16 If the part of the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches.

17 If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18 do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” 20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.

yeshuaslavejeff · Oct 24, 2016

Bob S said:
Mark 16:15
He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation.
??> Jesus made the new covenant available to all the World.

There is a lot of confusion about 'new covenant', particularly later doctrines and ideas dragged in to it to confuse and oppress people.
YHWH'S WORD and SALVATION (THE GOSPEL TO ALL CREATION)
however, is simple and truth.

Bob S said:
21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.

Amein. Neither the natural branches
nor the branches grafted in
are safe from being chopped off
if YHWH decides to chop them off.

klutedavid · Oct 24, 2016

Ken Rank said:
After reading your position, and I thank you for taking the time to do it, I simply don't see things as you do. There are a couple of issues David...

1. The word gentile historically is a pagan. That is how the word was defined when it was used first in our bibles. We continued using that word but the definition has morphed. We are now using a modern definition for a word that when first used, meant something else entirely. We do this... we think being "Adopted sons of God" means we were spiritual orphans whom God brought in and made part of His family. Well, there is SOME measure of truth within that thought, but it is not a complete thought and does not recognize the use of the word throughout history. A father might be a tent maker and he sees in his son the ability to possibly become a great tent maker. He would then "adopt" his own son, bring him into the family business and in the process the son would take part in the profit and take in a greater inheritance. Even as late as the Justinian Codes, we see adopted defined in this manner. A grandfather might even adopt his grandson. So, when we become an adopted son of God it is because God has brought us into the family in order to do the WORK OF THE FAMILY. An adopted son of God is being raised up within His family to do His work. We miss this when we apply the modern definition of the word. We are doing the same with a gentile. The Hebrew goyim means any nation other than Israel or anyone who serves a god other than YHWH. The Greek ethnos means the exact same thing. It is translated more times as gentiles when it is better understandable as nations. Here is one of many examples I can share:

Acts 9:15 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:

First, ethnos can be translated as gentiles, pagans, heathens, or nations. I would choose nations for this verse, you'll understand why in a moment. Second, we have two words translated as "and" in this verse, but it is two different Greek words. We see kai which is "and" and we see te which is "both" or "also." I think both works best, again, you'll understand in a moment. So, if I re-translate this verse I would do so as:

Acts 9:15 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Nations, and kings, both the children of Israel:

Now why would I do this. First of all Yeshua said, "I have not been sent BUT unto the lost sheep of the House of Israel." The most repeated prophesy David is the Northern Kingdom of Israel being called back from their exile. "In the place where I said unto them, you are not my people, there (the nations they were scattered into) you will be called Sons of the Living God." (Hosea 1:10) Salvation is for all, but Yeshua also said, "I have NO COME TO CALL THE RIGHTEOUS," I have come to call the sinners unto repentance." You need to get out a dictionary and define righteousness. Remember, Paul's "there is none righteous" is a quote from Psalms dealing with atheists. Anyway.... with this said, what is significant about Paul's commission? Simple... here is what Yeshua told the other disciples:

Matthew 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
Matthew 10:6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Right Ken... but Paul was the Apostle to the Gentiles. No sir... his commission was Yeshua quoting Jacob's blessing. I will put both of them together...

Acts 9:15 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Nations, and kings, both the children of Israel:

Genesis 35:11 And God said unto him, I am God Almighty: be fruitful and multiply; a nation and a company of nations shall be of thee, and kings shall come out of thy loins

Jacob's children, Israel, would become nations and kings and Paul was sent to the ethnos (nations) and kings. He was also sent to the lost sheep... Yeshua said he came for the lost sheep, he sent his disciples to the lost sheep, and Paul was doing the same.

There is another prophetic tie in but I lack the time to do it this morning. The famous phrase we use so much, 'times of the gentiles' when rolled back into Hebrew would be melo hagoyim, a 'multitude of nations' as it is translated over Ephraim when Jacob blesses him. In other words, the "times of the Gentiles" could and probably should be translated as "multitude (or fullness) of the nations" which ties the quote to Ephraim's blessing, and Ephraim, I can show you a couple of scores of times, is a poetic term for Israel in the nations, the lost sheep. There are HUNDREDS of verses I can share to make this point... literally hundreds... but the bottom line is simple.... Israel was scattered into the NATIONS (ethnos) and they became gentiles and pagans (ethnos) and they were being called OUT OF the nations which is why Paul said, "you WERE ethnos" and "you WERE aliens of the Commonwealth of Israel." And it is why he finished with, "But NOW through Christ you are no longer afar off" and "you are (NOW) fellow citizens with the saints." The context clearly tied to the word Commonwealth.

2. The "new" in "new covenant" is chadashah in Hebrew in Jeremiah 31. In Hebrews 8 it is kainos in Greek. When I look these up (starting in Hebrew) I see that chadashah means new, but that it is the adjective form of the verb that means "to renew." Since it is describing the covenant (a noun), then this adjective would mean, "renewed covenant." In the Greek the word kainos means "to make fresh, renew" and there is another word (nehos) which means "new in regards to age." In other words, while both kainos and nehos are translated as "new" in various places, kainos means "to renew" and nehos is "brand new." So, since kainos is used for "new covenant" in Hebrews 8 (where it is quoting Jer. 31) we see again the idea of "renewed covenant." There are differences, yes... like the Law taken from the stone and placed on the heart.... but this is the EVERLASTING COVENANT (see Psalm 105:8-10) that follows in a line that began with a promise first found in Genesis 3:15. Yeshua didn't come to create a new religion, or destroy everything that led to his arrival... that pointed to his arrival... he came to build upon it and fulfill the work. Now... everything is in place for the restoration of all things to happen... but it hasn't happened yet. We still age, decay and die (the wages of sin is death) and until the resurrection and perfecting of the saints... we can't say he has applied it all yet. So... much is left on the table.

Gotta run... sorry. I just don't have time this morning to finish the thoughts.

Hello Ken.

Thanks for your surprising reply.

1. The word gentile historically is a pagan.

The origin of the word 'gentile' is the old Latin word 'gentilis'. The Latin word 'gentilis' means nations.

The Catholic Vulgate Bible translated the Hebrew noun 'goyim' as nations, and the Greek 'ethnoi' as nations.

This Catholic translation of 'goyim' and 'ethnoi', as nations, was then copied by the KJV tranlsation.

The translation of the Koine Greek 'ethnos', as nations, is Latin and anathema to me.

For the people of ancient Greece, the word 'ethnos' referred to “foreigners”, non-Greek people, but Greek-speaking Jews used it to mean “non-Jews”. Can it get any simpler than this Ken.

I would translate the Koine Greek 'ethnos' in the New Testament, as not Jewish.

Acts 15:9 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before anyone but the Jews, and kings, and the children of Israel.

The word 'pagans' comes from the Latin noun paganus, which means people outside of Rome.

A pagan has no association with the word gentile, these two words have entirely different meanings.

May I suggest you avoid puting to much trust in the hybrid, KJV-Vulgate translation.

A father might be a tent maker and he sees in his son the ability to possibly become a great tent
maker. He would then "adopt" his own son, bring him into the family business and in the process the son
would take part in the profit and take in a greater inheritance. Even as late as the Justinian Codes, we see
adopted defined in this manner. A grandfather might even adopt his grandson. So, when we become an adopted son of God it is because God has brought us into the family in order to do the WORK OF THE FAMILY.

This has nothing to do with what we were discussing, Ken. Your fleshly heart is speaking the word, 'WORKS'.

There is far to much Latin in your vocabulary Ken, you need to be cleansed.

Don't let me get in the way of your erroneous understanding, of the Koine Greek New Testament.

klutedavid · Oct 24, 2016

Bob S said:
Thank you for a great post. God has made covenants with man since the beginning. All were gentiles up and until the sons of Israel who are deemed Semites.

The Jews believe we gentiles do have a covenant and they refer to it as the Noahide covenant. That covenant was made with Noah and has been passed down through time. As we know God never restricted Noah about what he was to eat. We know from scripture and history that God also didn't require Noah to observe days. We have to rely on the writers and preservers to have been guided by God and He had Moses and whoever to tell all that was pertinent. Where scripture is mute on a subject it is not our place to insert our theories. We find some doing just that and it is always to try to prove preconceived beliefs.

Hello Bob.

They fail to understand Paul's teaching concerning the new creation.
The phrase 'new creation' is missing from their textbooks.

May I ask you Bob, what was the trigger that set you free from the SDA?
This must have been a very difficult time for you Bob.

Bob S · Oct 25, 2016

klutedavid said:
Hello Bob.

They fail to understand Paul's teaching concerning the new creation.
The phrase 'new creation' is missing from their textbooks.

May I ask you Bob, what was the trigger that set you free from the SDA?
This must have been a very difficult time for you Bob.

Hi Ken, well for sure a bell didn't go off in my head one day and I left the next. It took a long time after I started seeing cracks in the foundation of the church. I was fed a lot of the prophet, Ellen White and for a long time didn't question her writings. I was turned off with her style of writing, so I didn't study her like some SDAs do. In Sabbath School the end of a debate or final comment would be from someone quoting Ellen and then the subject would change. I got so I would challenge some of those final comments and then I would get lectured by some of the members. I remember one of the subjects was on tithing. Ellen's comments on tithing is that if we didn't we would loose our eternal inheritance. I was aware that Jesus would not have been a tithe payer because only those who raised crops and or livestock payed tithe. When I presented this bit of information I really got lectured. As of several years ago only 30% of SDAs pay an "honest" tithe as they call it. I wonder if the ones lecturing me were part of the 30%.

After I retired I decided to do an in depth study of the Bible and compare it to all the cracks I believed I saw. I was introduced to several good books by a friend I confided in and one of the things that really rocked my boat was the fact that there are two great covenants and Christians are not subject to the covenant made with Israel. I started studying in depth the writings of Paul, comparing his writings with the beliefs I held. I discovered marvelous grace which I couldn't understand before because I was so over whelmed with trying to keep the law and all the church made thou shalt nots like playing cards with our parents. It was okay to play rook. We couldn't wear our wedding bands. The prophet had the last word on all of our activity. It seemed like almost always when we would get together with friends a discussion came up on what we could or couldn't do. Then we would gossip about what someone seeing something awful that some member did on the Sabbath or someone seeing Pepsi Cola or meat in someone's grocery cart. Again Ellen had the last word. I know there are other churches that have similar restrictions and I now know that they do it to keep their flocks under their thumbs. What a shame Christians are not allowed to allow the Holy Spirit to guide them. In the case of SDAs it was the prophet's thumb. She took the place of the Holy Spirit.

SDAs speak out of both sides of their mouths. They were demanding that the flock observe Sabbath, but when I pinned them down as how to do that I never got a real answer. It was a sin to go out in the garden and pick some tomatoes on Sabbath and a sin to cook peas on the holy day. Yes, I heard a sermon on cooking peas on the Sabbath. One of the books I read went into detail about the Sabbath and brought to light many verses that tell us we are not under the old covenant Sabbath. Once again I did a thorough study, something I didn't do before joining the church in the first place.

I could go on and on about the 40 years I spent in bondage, but praise the Lord He set me and most of my family free. I still have one child that is a pseudo SDA for reasons I will not expose. I thank the Holy Spirit for softening my heart to the real Word of God and not some flawed prophet and a hierarchy that supports all the falsehood of Adventism.

Seek and you too will find.

klutedavid · Oct 25, 2016

Hello Bob.

Thanks for your reply to my question regarding your SDA membership.

Hi David, well for sure a bell didn't go off in my head one day and I left the next. It took a long time after I started seeing cracks in the foundation of the church. I was fed a lot of the prophet, Ellen White and for a long time didn't question her writings. I was turned off with her style of writing, so I didn't study her like some SDAs do.

I have read a little of Ellen's writing, apparently she borrowed material and
never quoted the authors.

In Sabbath School the end of a debate or final comment would be from someone quoting Ellen and then the subject would change. I got so I would challenge some of those final comments and then I would get lectured by some of the members. I remember one of the subjects was on tithing. Ellen's comments on tithing is that if we didn't we would loose our eternal inheritance.

A Sabbath school, what a difficult concept to comprehend for someone outside
of the SDA. Tithing is a law in many church movements. Never heard anyone make the claim that, you loose an eternal inheritance by not tithing. How does Ellen support that claim using the scripture?

After I retired I decided to do an in depth study of the Bible and compare it to all the cracks I believed I saw. I was introduced to several good books by a friend I confided in and one of the things that really rocked my boat was the fact that there are two great covenants and Christians are not subject to the covenant made with Israel.

The covenants are difficult to see in the scripture, I agree Bob. But when you understand these covenants, and the parties involved. They do tend to clear the legal fog that hangs across the Old Testament.

I do not understand how the SDA members, can be oblivious to these covenants.
When people point out these covenants to the SDA, on forums such as this one.
Especially when Paul clearly states the following.

Romans 9
4 Who are Israelites, to whom belongs the adoption as sons, and the glory
and the covenants and the giving of the Law and the temple service and the promises.

No doubt they are taught that they are the Israelites.

I started studying in depth the writings of Paul, comparing his writings with the beliefs I held. I discovered marvelous grace which I couldn't understand before because I was so over whelmed with trying to keep the law

That is a powerful statement you have made, Bob. The Grace of God is one
of the most powerful revelations in the scripture.

Romans 4:16
For this reason it is by faith, in order that it may be in accordance with Grace,
so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law.

When Paul came to the realization that he was saved by the Grace of Jesus Christ, it would have buckled him. What an amazing God we serve Bob, so deeply clever and such an incredible love for his creation.

I know there are other churches that have similar restrictions and I now know that they do it to keep their flocks under their thumbs. What a shame Christians are not allowed to allow the Holy Spirit to guide them. In the case of SDAs it was the prophet's thumb. She took the place of the Holy Spirit.

The SDA is not the only offender and that's for sure. Human nature has the most sinful desires, the desire to control others is so strong in some folk.

They were demanding that the flock observe Sabbath, but when I pinned them down as how to do that I never got a real answer.

Anyone who thinks that the eternal and loving God, would sentence someone to hell. Simply on the basis of what day of the week someone goes to church, is beyond comprehension. So glad that God revealed exactly what the line of demarcation is.

John 3:18
He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John 3:36
He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.

I could go on and on about the 40 years I spent in bondage, but praise the Lord He set me and most of my family free.

Incredible Bob, a stunning testimony of God's Grace towards you.

Ken Rank · Oct 26, 2016

klutedavid said:
Hello Ken.

Thanks for your surprising reply.

The origin of the word 'gentile' is the old Latin word 'gentilis'. The Latin word 'gentilis' means nations.

The Catholic Vulgate Bible translated the Hebrew noun 'goyim' as nations, and the Greek 'ethnoi' as nations.

This Catholic translation of 'goyim' and 'ethnoi', as nations, was then copied by the KJV tranlsation.

The translation of the Koine Greek 'ethnos', as nations, is Latin and anathema to me.

For the people of ancient Greece, the word 'ethnos' referred to “foreigners”, non-Greek people, but Greek-speaking Jews used it to mean “non-Jews”. Can it get any simpler than this Ken.

I would translate the Koine Greek 'ethnos' in the New Testament, as not Jewish.

Acts 15:9 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before anyone but the Jews, and kings, and the children of Israel.

The word 'pagans' comes from the Latin noun paganus, which means people outside of Rome.

A pagan has no association with the word gentile, these two words have entirely different meanings.

May I suggest you avoid puting to much trust in the hybrid, KJV-Vulgate translation.

This has nothing to do with what we were discussing, Ken. Your fleshly heart is speaking the word, 'WORKS'.

There is far to much Latin in your vocabulary Ken, you need to be cleansed.

Don't let me get in the way of your erroneous understanding, of the Koine Greek New Testament.

Thanks for the lesson.

As far as me needing to be cleansed... and my erroneous understanding... there you go again. Using yourself and your understanding as the yardstick by which others are measured. I think we are about done.

Ken Rank · Oct 26, 2016

klutedavid said:
I would translate the Koine Greek 'ethnos' in the New Testament, as not Jewish.

That assumes that only Jews are Israel... but the covenant is made with Judah (the Jews) AND Israel. Both are ultimately Israel as in "the Whole House," but this is two different people we are talking about here. The two sticks of Ezekiel 37 (Judah and Joseph/Israel) are two people... you account for only one with your theology. I don't care, you are welcome to account for however many you see. But to ignore that there is more than one people being spoken of here and then call my understanding erroneous and use your knowledge as the litmus test you place on myself or others, exalts yourself and I don't have time for that. Believe whatever you wish.

klutedavid said:
A pagan has no association with the word gentile, these two words have entirely different meanings.

A pagan serves any and all gods that are not the God of Israel. We come to the God of Israel through the messiah of Israel and because of this, Paul wrote that we WERE gentiles and WERE aliens of the Commonwealth of Israel but are now fellow citizens (Those are the words he was inspired to write, I am repeating HIM not making them up). The understanding of the word gentile, up until about 150 years ago, was that a gentile was a pagan, one who served gods other than the God of Israel. We have altered the definition (which is how and why you arrive at yours) but we are using the SAME WORD that was used for ethnos to depict those who did not serve the God of Israel. So if you want to call yourself a gentile, fine... but you are, ignorantly it seems, saying you serve gods who are not YHWH.

klutedavid said:
This has nothing to do with what we were discussing, Ken. Your fleshly heart is speaking the word, 'WORKS'.

We are saved by grace and we cannot earn or merit salvation through any other means. However, those that belong to God work, obey... and if you need to place a negative name association to that fact, feel free, it won't change me in the least.

I have asked you repeatedly to show me, using ONLY Scripture, where the covenant found in Hebrews 8:8-11 includes gentiles/pagans/heathen. You can't, I know it, and you know it. I knew it before I asked... this is like asking for you to share where, using Scripture, we move Sabbath to Sunday. If it isn't in Scripture, what you have is tradition guiding you. And if you are comfortable with that, fine. But don't come on here exalting your own opinion of yourself David, demeaning me... because I am trying to walk only as Scripture dictates and am doing my best not to live outside of it. If nothing moves Shabbat to Sunday then I don't move it either, I choose not to follow a mandate from ROME. And if the new covenant is specifically made with only Judah and Israel and there are NO mentions of anyone else... then if my paradigm is forcing somebody else, I need to change.

I don't appreciate the tone of the last note and if that doesn't change, I won't answer the next post. It isn't that I am avoiding you, I have answered every question you have asked, and more. But I am not going to sit here and play sophomoric games with words. We're adults, we SHOULD be able to have an adult conversation where the other is not belittled. Truth is whatever it is David, and it should be allowed to present itself in whatever form it exists whether that matches your (or my) theology or not. There is no covenant made with anyone but Judah and Israel. Prove that statement false or I will simply see you in another thread.

Shalom.
Ken

Ken Rank · Oct 26, 2016

Bob S said:
Hi Ken, well for sure a bell didn't go off in my head one day and I left the next. It took a long time after I started seeing cracks in the foundation of the church. I was fed a lot of the prophet, Ellen White and for a long time didn't question her writings. I was turned off with her style of writing, so I didn't study her like some SDAs do. In Sabbath School the end of a debate or final comment would be from someone quoting Ellen and then the subject would change. I got so I would challenge some of those final comments and then I would get lectured by some of the members. I remember one of the subjects was on tithing. Ellen's comments on tithing is that if we didn't we would loose our eternal inheritance. I was aware that Jesus would not have been a tithe payer because only those who raised crops and or livestock payed tithe. When I presented this bit of information I really got lectured. As of several years ago only 30% of SDAs pay an "honest" tithe as they call it. I wonder if the ones lecturing me were part of the 30%.

After I retired I decided to do an in depth study of the Bible and compare it to all the cracks I believed I saw. I was introduced to several good books by a friend I confided in and one of the things that really rocked my boat was the fact that there are two great covenants and Christians are not subject to the covenant made with Israel. I started studying in depth the writings of Paul, comparing his writings with the beliefs I held. I discovered marvelous grace which I couldn't understand before because I was so over whelmed with trying to keep the law and all the church made thou shalt nots like playing cards with our parents. It was okay to play rook. We couldn't wear our wedding bands. The prophet had the last word on all of our activity. It seemed like almost always when we would get together with friends a discussion came up on what we could or couldn't do. Then we would gossip about what someone seeing something awful that some member did on the Sabbath or someone seeing Pepsi Cola or meat in someone's grocery cart. Again Ellen had the last word. I know there are other churches that have similar restrictions and I now know that they do it to keep their flocks under their thumbs. What a shame Christians are not allowed to allow the Holy Spirit to guide them. In the case of SDAs it was the prophet's thumb. She took the place of the Holy Spirit.

SDAs speak out of both sides of their mouths. They were demanding that the flock observe Sabbath, but when I pinned them down as how to do that I never got a real answer. It was a sin to go out in the garden and pick some tomatoes on Sabbath and a sin to cook peas on the holy day. Yes, I heard a sermon on cooking peas on the Sabbath. One of the books I read went into detail about the Sabbath and brought to light many verses that tell us we are not under the old covenant Sabbath. Once again I did a thorough study, something I didn't do before joining the church in the first place.

I could go on and on about the 40 years I spent in bondage, but praise the Lord He set me and most of my family free. I still have one child that is a pseudo SDA for reasons I will not expose. I thank the Holy Spirit for softening my heart to the real Word of God and not some flawed prophet and a hierarchy that supports all the falsehood of Adventism.

Seek and you too will find.

I "liked" your post not because I agree with all of it, but because of the heart and time you put into it. I am not an SDA and see them as mainstream Christians who meet on Saturday and don't eat meat (for the most part). Otherwise, to me they seem like any other Christian denomination. And like all Christians, I consider them brothers in Christ even if I don't agree with some or many of their positions.

As far as me seeking and finding.... I was baptized in a Baptist church in Frankfort, KY in the late summer of 95'. I studied hard and fast... 3-5 chapters a day, 8 hours of Christian teaching radio, Sunday morning, Sunday and Wednesday nights, and Saturday morning men's study. After a year I began to ask question the deacons were more than happy to answer. When I came to them with, "Why does the Bible use LORD instead of God's name which appears in the manuscripts?," I got puzzled looks and answers like, "Because God's name means Lord." Doing what I was told, proving all things, I went home and studied and learned that wasn't true. When I came back and re-asked the question with proof (and my attempt was truly innocent, I was just seeking) their tone changed and they were clearly no longer willing to entertain me. I came back a few weeks letter with one more question and it was too over-the-top for them to hear... I questioned their holy grail, once saved always saved.

Well, off to the principles office I went (the pastor, he married my wife and I by the way) and knowing why I was there, he spent 45 minutes (15 more than any sermon he ever preached

) and laid out the best case he had. Once done, he kicked his feet up on the table, linked his hands behind his head as he leaned back, and sure I had nothing, smiled, and said, "so what do you have?" Undeterred in the least, I began to go verse by verse through many books and chapters and after a couple of minutes the smile went away and by the 5th minute, he sat up, slammed his hand down on the table, and began to cry. Literally, tears... and he said, "You think I don't know this? I can't be expected to go out there and undermine their feeling of security. It is time for you to leave and do not come back!"

Crushed... I walked away and bounced around from church to church trying to find where God wanted me. After a year (so I am about 2 years old at this point) I came across a book I won't mention the title of. I am not mentioning it because the scholarship is poor, the reader becomes polarized, and it will not edify. Still, I don't know that at the time and I read it and became confused. Claims about the early church (some correct but most not so much) and other things... I developed a spiritual headache.

So, I left it all, for one year I didn't pray, I didn't read the bible, I didn't fellowship... I didn't go live a life of sin, I just needed time to get over the headache.

About a year later, almost to the day, I felt a very strong conviction to come back to God. I am not one to say, "I heard the Lord say...." but I really think I heard the Lord say, "Times up."

So... I fell on my knees not really knowing where to start and I began to pray and I remember, vividly, asking the Father... "Lead me where you would have me. Be LORD to me, order my steps.... I don't care Father if you tell me the Mormons are correct, the Jehovah's Witnesses, Baptists, or none of the above... just lead me in the way you desire."

I began to see, Bob, that context is NOT the verse before and after, it is ANYTHING that can affect the point of the verse. Whether it be the difference between a Greek or Hebraic paradigm, a use of a certain exegentical tool, a variant in the manuscripts, even becoming at least familiar with the Greek play that Paul quotes (and many other things). And as I began to take into consideration context affecting things, my paradigm began to change and in the process I began to see Yeshua in a new light. My appreciation for his work skyrocketed, and our lives have changed. You call it bondage, myself and others see only blessing.

I can't change your view and quite frankly do not seek to. We answer for ourselves and that is why I said I wasn't going to engage with you on this topic. What is the point... if you see bondage and I see blessing in resting on the 7th day like Yeshua did... then we have a different paradigm and that is fine. Like I said, I am not here to clone myself, I am here to share some things I feel blessed with, and am looking to glean from the insights of others.

Peace.
Ken

Bob S · Oct 26, 2016

Ken Rank said:
I "liked" your post not because I agree with all of it, but because of the heart and time you put into it. I am not an SDA and see them as mainstream Christians who meet on Saturday and don't eat meat (for the most part). Otherwise, to me they seem like any other Christian denomination. And like all Christians, I consider them brothers in Christ even if I don't agree with some or many of their positions.

I am a bit confused Ken, I wrote my post to David to answer his request, but I see I greeted you, yet when I read David's reply my post was directed to him. Oh well, it is open for all to view and I am glad you choose t read it.

I agree, on the outside the church seems mainline. Having been a member for 40 years I can testify the church is absolutely not mainline. I also consider Adventist my brothers and sisters in Christ. My stand against Adventism is not the folks that fill the pews each week, it is with the doctrines. Adventists are some of the most caring lovable people I know. Last year an Adventist couple and my wife and I traveled together in Europe. I have a good relationship with many SDAs. Maybe you would agree with me if you would study their belief system.

As far as me seeking and finding.... I was baptized in a Baptist church in Frankfort, KY in the late summer of 95'. I studied hard and fast... 3-5 chapters a day, 8 hours of Christian teaching radio, Sunday morning, Sunday and Wednesday nights, and Saturday morning men's study. After a year I began to ask question the deacons were more than happy to answer. When I came to them with, "Why does the Bible use LORD instead of God's name which appears in the manuscripts?," I got puzzled looks and answers like, "Because God's name means Lord." Doing what I was told, proving all things, I went home and studied and learned that wasn't true. When I came back and re-asked the question with proof (and my attempt was truly innocent, I was just seeking) their tone changed and they were clearly no longer willing to entertain me. I came back a few weeks letter with one more question and it was too over-the-top for them to hear... I questioned their holy grail, once saved always saved.

Of course I cannot speak for those who offended you, but the use of God and Jesus are what most of us grew up with. Is God offended by what you deem as improper? I certainly have no idea and I doubt if you really have either. Groups have many different ways to snare people into their ranks. We have to ask if it is important.

Well, off to the principles office I went (the pastor, he married my wife and I by the way) and knowing why I was there, he spent 45 minutes (15 more than any sermon he ever preached ) and laid out the best case he had. Once done, he kicked his feet up on the table, linked his hands behind his head as he leaned back, and sure I had nothing, smiled, and said, "so what do you have?" Undeterred in the least, I began to go verse by verse through many books and chapters and after a couple of minutes the smile went away and by the 5th minute, he sat up, slammed his hand down on the table, and began to cry. Literally, tears... and he said, "You think I don't know this? I can't be expected to go out there and undermine their feeling of security. It is time for you to leave and do not come back!"

Yep, there are a lot of pastors out there that do not believe what they have to preach.

Crushed... I walked away and bounced around from church to church trying to find where God wanted me. After a year (so I am about 2 years old at this point) I came across a book I won't mention the title of. I am not mentioning it because the scholarship is poor, the reader becomes polarized, and it will not edify. Still, I don't know that at the time and I read it and became confused. Claims about the early church (some correct but most not so much) and other things... I developed a spiritual headache. So, I left it all, for one year I didn't pray, I didn't read the bible, I didn't fellowship... I didn't go live a life of sin, I just needed time to get over the headache.

About a year later, almost to the day, I felt a very strong conviction to come back to God. I am not one to say, "I heard the Lord say...." but I really think I heard the Lord say, "Times up." So... I fell on my knees not really knowing where to start and I began to pray and I remember, vividly, asking the Father... "Lead me where you would have me. Be LORD to me, order my steps.... I don't care Father if you tell me the Mormons are correct, the Jehovah's Witnesses, Baptists, or none of the above... just lead me in the way you desire."

I began to see, Bob, that context is NOT the verse before and after, it is ANYTHING that can affect the point of the verse. Whether it be the difference between a Greek or Hebraic paradigm, a use of a certain exegentical tool, a variant in the manuscripts, even becoming at least familiar with the Greek play that Paul quotes (and many other things). And as I began to take into consideration context affecting things, my paradigm began to change and in the process I began to see Yeshua in a new light. My appreciation for his work skyrocketed, and our lives have changed. You call it bondage, myself and others see only blessing.

I can't change your view and quite frankly do not seek to. We answer for ourselves and that is why I said I wasn't going to engage with you on this topic. What is the point... if you see bondage and I see blessing in resting on the 7th day like Yeshua did... then we have a different paradigm and that is fine. Like I said, I am not here to clone myself, I am here to share some things I feel blessed with, and am looking to glean from the insights of others.

Peace.
Ken

Very interesting. I will not comment because I respect your wishes.

klutedavid · Oct 26, 2016

Ken Rank said:
Thanks for the lesson. As far as me needing to be cleansed... and my erroneous understanding... there you go again. Using yourself and your understanding as the yardstick by which others are measured. I think we are about done.

Hello Ken.

The cleansing was a joke, Ken, my humor has got me into trouble before.

Ken Rank said:
I "liked" your post not because I agree with all of it, but because of the heart and time you put into it.

Thanks Ken.

I am not an SDA and see them as mainstream Christians who meet on Saturday and don't eat meat (for the most part). Otherwise, to me they seem like any other Christian denomination. And like all Christians, I consider them brothers in Christ even if I don't agree with some or many of their positions.

I see SDA as falling for the very popular alternate Gospel.

As far as me seeking and finding.... I was baptized in a Baptist church in Frankfort, KY in the late summer of 95'. I studied hard and fast... 3-5 chapters a day, 8 hours of Christian teaching radio, Sunday morning, Sunday and Wednesday nights, and Saturday morning men's study.

That's a very heavy work load, Ken. The Baptist church covers many varieties
of interpretations.

After a year I began to ask question the deacons were more than happy to answer. When I came to them with, "Why does the Bible use LORD instead of God's name which appears in the manuscripts?,"

Exactly, YHWH cannot be translated into Lord. One is a name, the other is a general term.

I got puzzled looks and answers like, "Because God's name means Lord." Doing what I was told, proving all things, I went home and studied and learned that wasn't true. When I came back and re-asked the question with proof (and my attempt was truly innocent, I was just seeking) their tone changed and they were clearly no longer willing to entertain me.

Well that is most unsatisfactory.

I came back a few weeks letter with one more question and it was too over-the-top for them to hear... I questioned their holy grail, once saved always saved.

That brand of the Baptist church, well OSAS is a debatable topic.

Well, off to the principles office I went (the pastor, he married my wife and I by the way) and knowing why I was there, he spent 45 minutes (15 more than any sermon he ever preached ) and laid out the best case he had. Once done, he kicked his feet up on the table, linked his hands behind his head as he leaned back, and sure I had nothing, smiled, and said, "so what do you have?" Undeterred in the least, I began to go verse by verse through many books and chapters and after a couple of minutes the smile went away and by the 5th minute, he sat up, slammed his hand down on the table, and began to cry. Literally, tears... and he said, "You think I don't know this? I can't be expected to go out there and undermine their feeling of security. It is time for you to leave and do not come back!"

The security that OSAS offers is one big bonus, not surprised he was upset.

Crushed... I walked away and bounced around from church to church trying to find where God wanted me. After a year (so I am about 2 years old at this point) I came across a book I won't mention the title of.

It would be helpful if you named the book, Ken.

I am not mentioning it because the scholarship is poor, the reader becomes polarized, and it will not edify.

Some letters in the New Testament are not written by scholars either.

Still, I don't know that at the time and I read it and became confused. Claims about the early church (some correct but most not so much) and other things... I developed a spiritual headache. So, I left it all, for one year I didn't pray, I didn't read the bible, I didn't fellowship... I didn't go live a life of sin, I just needed time to get over the headache.

Books written about the Bible cause the greatest problem, I believe, in Christianity.

About a year later, almost to the day, I felt a very strong conviction to come back to God. I am not one to say, "I heard the Lord say...." but I really think I heard the Lord say, "Times up." So... I fell on my knees not really knowing where to start and I began to pray and I remember, vividly, asking the Father... "Lead me where you would have me. Be LORD to me, order my steps.... I don't care Father if you tell me the Mormons are correct, the Jehovah's Witnesses, Baptists, or none of the above... just lead me in the way you desire."

So many factions.

I began to see, Bob, that context is NOT the verse before and after, it is ANYTHING that can affect the point of the verse.

Actually the context is the full letter, this includes surrounding verses and chapters. I would strongly disagree with you on that point, Ken.

Whether it be the difference between a Greek or Hebraic paradigm, a use of a certain exegentical tool, a variant in the manuscripts, even becoming at least familiar with the Greek play that Paul quotes (and many other things). And as I began to take into consideration context affecting things, my paradigm began to change and in the process I began to see Yeshua in a new light. My appreciation for his work skyrocketed, and our lives have changed. You call it bondage, myself and others see only blessing.

Paul calls it bondage, not me.

I can't change your view and quite frankly do not seek to. We answer for ourselves and that is why I said I wasn't going to engage with you on this topic. What is the point... if you see bondage and I see blessing in resting on the 7th day like Yeshua did... then we have a different paradigm and that is fine. Like I said, I am not here to clone myself, I am here to share some things I feel blessed with, and am looking to glean from the insights of others.

The problem you have is with Paul's letters, Ken.

Ken Rank · Oct 27, 2016

klutedavid said:
Hello Ken.

The cleansing was a joke, Ken, my humor has got me into trouble before.

Thanks Ken.

I see SDA as falling for the very popular alternate Gospel.

That's a very heavy work load, Ken. The Baptist church covers many varieties
of interpretations.

Exactly, YHWH cannot be translated into Lord. One is a name, the other is a general term.

Well that is most unsatisfactory.

That brand of the Baptist church, well OSAS is a debatable topic.

The security that OSAS offers is one big bonus, not surprised he was upset.

It would be helpful if you named the book, Ken.

Some letters in the New Testament are not written by scholars either.

Books written about the Bible cause the greatest problem, I believe, in Christianity.

So many factions.

Actually the context is the full letter, this includes surrounding verses and chapters. I would strongly disagree with you on that point, Ken.

Paul calls it bondage, not me.

The problem you have is with Paul's letters, Ken.

David, we have a difference of paradigm... therefore, we cannot come to the same conclusions in some areas. You read Romans and see a cry to run from Torah, I found Torah reading Romans. Anyway... I have repeatedly asked you one question and you won't touch it, instead, you dissect a post that wasn't even written to you. I now have to answer about a book that WILL NOT be mentioned because I have seen it cause hundreds to stumble. I know the harm it can do, we teach courses... 12-16 hour seminars on overcoming the nonsense written in books like that. I am not sharing it here.... I only mentioned it as part of an abbreviated testimony.

Now I am expected to address all your responses to a post that wasn't sent to you when you can't answer one question? No... David, I am not a special person but I do have a full plate. My time is extremely limited and I am more than willing to share it with those who want to give AND take... in your case, 4 times now (?) you have been asked a specific question and have not addressed it. I don't have time for this, I am sorry, I really am... I just don't have the time. We're done here... perhaps we can try again in another thread another time. You're welcome to send me a private message or something. But I am not opening this thread again. No hard feelings.

Blessings.
Ken

Bob S · Oct 27, 2016

Jude1:24 To him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you before his glorious presence without fault and with great joy— 25 to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.

I consider the above as a promise. I have no idea if it falls under OSAS, but I do trust that He will keep His promise.

yeshuaslavejeff · Oct 27, 2016

Bob S said:
Jude1:24 To him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you before his glorious presence without fault and with great joy— 25 to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.

I consider the above as a promise. I have no idea if it falls under OSAS, but I do trust that He will keep His promise.

YHWH'S WORD, all, is yes and amein in Y'SHUA. Faithful and True.

There's two multitudes [to compare here] before YHWH'S THRONE on JUDGMENT DAY.

One multitude receives all of YHWH'S PROMISE in Y'SHUA.
One multitude does not.
On earth before then, they don't know who's who.

YHWH gives plenty of warning, and says no one has an excuse for missing out.(there is no recourse after dying, none at all). Through HIS WORD, HE says it is no problem to repeat HIS warnings, rather it is a safeguard, a good reminder often, to help prevent one another from being deceived,
day after day - temptations and traps are every day, they don't stop, so frequent warnings and reminders are helpful.

klutedavid · Oct 27, 2016

Ken Rank said:
David, we have a difference of paradigm... therefore, we cannot come to the same conclusions in some areas. You read Romans and see a cry to run from Torah, I found Torah reading Romans. Anyway... I have repeatedly asked you one question and you won't touch it, instead, you dissect a post that wasn't even written to you. I now have to answer about a book that WILL NOT be mentioned because I have seen it cause hundreds to stumble. I know the harm it can do, we teach courses... 12-16 hour seminars on overcoming the nonsense written in books like that. I am not sharing it here.... I only mentioned it as part of an abbreviated testimony.

Now I am expected to address all your responses to a post that wasn't sent to you when you can't answer one question? No... David, I am not a special person but I do have a full plate. My time is extremely limited and I am more than willing to share it with those who want to give AND take... in your case, 4 times now (?) you have been asked a specific question and have not addressed it. I don't have time for this, I am sorry, I really am... I just don't have the time. We're done here... perhaps we can try again in another thread another time. You're welcome to send me a private message or something. But I am not opening this thread again. No hard feelings.

Blessings.
Ken

Hello Ken.

I was not avoiding answering your question regarding the text (Hebrews 8:8-11). I just had more important points to discuss. Here is the text below plus a few more important lines from the text.

Hebrews 8
8 For finding fault with them, He says, “Behold, days are coming, says the Lord, When I will effect a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah; 9 Not like the covenant which I made with their fathers, on the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; For they did not continue in My covenant, And I did not care for them, says the Lord. 10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws into their minds, and I will write them on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 11 And they shall not teach everyone his fellow citizen, and everyone his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ For all will know Me, From the least to the greatest of them. 12 For I will be merciful to their iniquities, and I will remember their sins no more. 13 When He said, 'A new covenant', he has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear."

What was the promise of this old covenant that the text above, talks about?

Exodus 19
5 Now then, if you will indeed obey My voice and keep My covenant, then you shall be My own possession among all the peoples, for all the earth is Mine; 6 and you shall be to Me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation. These are the words that you shall speak to the sons of Israel.

The old covenant was a contract between the nation of Israel and God. With the specific promise that the nation of Israel would be a special nation among all the nations, a nation of priests. Israel was considered a special nation, if and only if, Israel honored the conditions of the old covenant with God!

The old covenant and it's conditional obedience focus, was a verbal agreement.

Exodus 24
7 Then he took the book of the covenant and read it in the hearing of the people; and they said, “All that the Lord has spoken we will do, and we will be obedient!”

The text (Hebrews 8:9) tells us that the nation of Israel did not continue in this old covenant with God. Hence, the significance of the nation of Israel as a special nation of people before God, was null and void. Then God informs us that a new covenant, will be established with Israel. This new covenant declares that God, will put My laws into their minds, and I will write them on their hearts. An entirely new covenant, one established by God Himself. Not like the old covenant, where obedience to the words of the covenant was crucial.

The new covenant is an eternal covenant, not dependent on our obedience, unlike the old covenant. The special status of Israel as a nation under the old covenant, was removed in the new covenant. The new covenant has neither a Jew or Greek, no special status for any nation, God is not partial. The very words of the old covenant are written by God on our hearts and mind. The gifts of the Holy Spirit, including love, are deeply written into our hearts and minds.

Everything is new in Christ, 'For I will be merciful to their iniquities, and I will remember their sins no more'. The new covenant is not conditional on our performance, the conditions of the new covenant were fully met by God Himself. Also, the new covenant is offered in the form of a free gift to humanity. The new
covenant is not a conditional covenant.

To whom and why God gave the Sabbaths?

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