Now that is something we can agree on.
However, as the scriptures teach us, it sure can seem evil while He is doing good.
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Belief in predestination is inevitable even if the Bible didn't say it was true.
- Thread starter Marvin Knox
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However, as the scriptures teach us, it sure can seem evil while He is doing good.
seekingsolace
Bah
Romans 8:28: And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose.
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nobdysfool
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More than you apparently realize, but I was actually replying to your declaration that God has nothing to do with anything that happens that is not "good", which is really a very subjective thing.
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I don't know why some people have so much trouble acknowledging what the scriptures clearly teach concerning God doing good through what appears to be absolutely horrible and evil events. It's all over the scriptures isn't it?
These examples range from the wholesale death of the firstborn of Egypt to the cruelty of Joseph's brothers to the rape and pillaging of the Assyrians to the actions inspired by Satan against Job and carried out by evil men.
Not the least of these examples is the horrible murder of Jesus. Obviously He, in His humanity, saw what was before Him as a horror when He asked if there was another way to accomplish the good that God intended.
It would be unwarranted to state with certainty that we must believe that these examples completely explain for us the reason for all evil in the world. But even if we are limited a bit in what we say about this - it seems quite scriptural to say that God has decreed only good - but that He very often at the least uses evil to accomplish that good.
When we consider that He is very involved in the doing of that evil on at least some level - we can readily see that He is working according to a precise plan and not just trying to some how and some way make lemonade out of lemons - which is the picture many seem to be painting.
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seekingsolace
Bah
The book of Job is one of my favorites to highlight this. It's enough for me to submit to God, knowing that He is just. I don't think God would willfully allow evil if not for a greater purpose. Maybe people think they are doing a disservice by acknowledging it, but really to not do is denying Gods sovereignty. Really all we can do is trust in God until all is made clear, knowing that the latter days are better than the beginning.
Job 1:11-12:
But now, stretch out Your hand and touch all that he has, and he will surely curse You to Your face!”
And the Lord said to Satan, “Behold, all that he has is in your power; only do not lay a hand on his person.”
Job 42:12-17
Now the Lord blessed the latter days of Job more than his beginning; for he had fourteen thousand sheep, six thousand camels, one thousand yoke of oxen, and one thousand female donkeys. He also had seven sons and three daughters. And he called the name of the first Jemimah, the name of the second Keziah, and the name of the third Keren-Happuch. In all the land were found no women so beautiful as the daughters of Job; and their father gave them an inheritance among their brothers.
After this Job lived one hundred and forty years, and saw his children and grandchildren for four generations. So Job died, old and full of days.
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I prepared an adult Sunday school class to illustrate the concept of God’s deep omnipresent involvement in evil events even as He accomplishes only good through that evil.
That’s a difficult concept that often brings howls of protest from some as we have seen here in this thread. It’s not much more understandable to us than to them. But a little more so at least.
The teaching involved the use of a child’s cartoon drawing of the Lord Jesus along with representations of some rather heavy acts of evil. Here is how it was done.
I wondered how I could represent the fact that God is present in His entirety and without division in every square centimeter of space and in every sub atomic particle in His creation as well. I hit on the idea of putting something like a postage stamp with the cartoon face of Jesus on it superimposed on the evil items I used in the illustration.
One was the atomic bomb used in Japan at the end of the war. It showed God (the face of Jesus) looking very upset at what was about to happen. “Oh, please don’t do that with me!” was the caption. “There will be hundreds of thousands of people killed horribly many of them children.” “Please – oh no, oh no!”
Another drawing was the rather aghast looking face of God pasted on the tip of a bullet racing toward an innocent child as it was fired from a gun in a drive by shooting. The same kind of shocked begging language was used by the Lord in this case as before.
Rather silly, Marvin, some would undoubtedly say. Perhaps even a little flippant considering that I was representing God in such a way. But it does make the point rather graphically but very effectively.
Some people seem to think that evil men and demons sort of carry God around in a briefcase looking to do evil. Apparently some think that evil men and demons get to occasionally take God out and do evil with Him and He can't do a darn thing about it – evil like killing a child with a bullet in which God is omnipresent.
I assure everyone who skipped the basic attributes of God class in Sunday school that such is not the case. As Job shows us - if in no other place – evil men and demons can do absolutely nothing that God does not willingly let them do.
Let me emphasis that. They can do nothing that God has not ordained to take place.
We live and move and have out being in God. Bullets and bombs have their being in Him as well.
If anything, it is God who uses evil men and demons to do His bidding according to His altogether good and perfect plan.
It is not the other way around.
To which - those of us who have incorporated the basic teachings of scripture into our world view and who take each line and precept in scripture with us as we tackle difficult subjects like “soterioloy”- would probably say something like,
"Well - DUUHH!”
Non Reformed types – apparently “not so much”.
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seekingsolace
Bah
I bet those six year olds ran out weeping, you monster...
So I missed the adult part, 00:20 time for sleep
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I went back and highlighted "adult" in the statement about the Sunday school class.I bet those six year olds ran out weeping, you monster...
So I missed the adult part, 00:20 time for sleep
Kids aren't ready to handle truth like that.
Apparently a lot of adults in this forum aren't as well - or at least they resist it.
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nobdysfool
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"There is no attribute more comforting to His children than that of God's sovereignty. Under the most adverse circumstances, in the most severe trials, they believe that sovereignty has ordained their afflictions, that sovereignty overrules them, that sovereignty will sanctify them all. There is nothing for which the children ought more earnestly to contend, than the Doctrine of their Master ruling over all creation--the Kingship of God over all the works of His own hands--the Throne of God and His right to sit upon that throne."
On the other hand, there is no Doctrine more hated by worldlings. No truth of which they have made such a football, as the great, stupendous, but yet most certain Doctrine of the sovereignty of the infinite Yahweh. Men will allow God to be everywhere except on His Throne. They will allow Him to be in His workshop to fashion worlds and make stars. They will allow Him to be in His almonry to dispense His alms and bestow His bounties. They will allow Him to sustain the earth and bear up the pillar thereof, or light the lamps of heaven, or rule the waves of the ever moving ocean; but when God ascends His Throne His creatures gnash their teeth. When we proclaim an enthroned God, and His right to do as He wills with His own, to dispose of His creatures as He thinks well, without consulting them in the matter; it is then that we are hissed and ridiculed, and it is then that men turn a deaf ear to us, for a God on His Throne is not the God they love. But it is God upon the Throne that we love to preach. It is God, upon His Throne, whom we trust. (C. H. Spurgeon).
On the other hand, there is no Doctrine more hated by worldlings. No truth of which they have made such a football, as the great, stupendous, but yet most certain Doctrine of the sovereignty of the infinite Yahweh. Men will allow God to be everywhere except on His Throne. They will allow Him to be in His workshop to fashion worlds and make stars. They will allow Him to be in His almonry to dispense His alms and bestow His bounties. They will allow Him to sustain the earth and bear up the pillar thereof, or light the lamps of heaven, or rule the waves of the ever moving ocean; but when God ascends His Throne His creatures gnash their teeth. When we proclaim an enthroned God, and His right to do as He wills with His own, to dispose of His creatures as He thinks well, without consulting them in the matter; it is then that we are hissed and ridiculed, and it is then that men turn a deaf ear to us, for a God on His Throne is not the God they love. But it is God upon the Throne that we love to preach. It is God, upon His Throne, whom we trust. (C. H. Spurgeon).
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It's just obvious that needless speculation on predestination is not edifying. This is proven from Christian experience. Wherever predestination is made of supreme importance, people have tended to fear that they are not among the elect, particularly those prone to anxiety. This is no small matter, either. Martin Luther, John Bunyan, and many others worried that God had passed them over. In 17th century Scotland and England religious worry was a frequent pastoral issue.
I think Karl Barth had it right... election has to do with Christ being God's only elect. So election is ultimately secondary to being in Christ.
I think Karl Barth had it right... election has to do with Christ being God's only elect. So election is ultimately secondary to being in Christ.
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Predestination is not the same as election.
The doctrine of predestination is not edifying only to those who resist it. To those who embrace what the Word of God teaches it is one of the most edifying doctrines in scripture.
Predestination and some other related doctrines may not be absolutely necessary for the average person in the congregation to understand fully.
But these doctrines are essential to all those who would become teachers and eventually train pastors and evangelists lest the gospel be distorted over time.
They are also a safeguard to those who would presume to become teachers on the internet lest they misrepresent the truth and come into a more strict judgment because of it.
Those people you referred to in your post - were only doing what the Holy Spirit instructed them to do.
"Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you—unless, of course, you fail the test?" (2 Corinthians 13:5-6).
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I really disagree. If you knew anything about obsessive-compulsive disorder, you would know it goes beyond mere examination. And in some cases it is actually caused or worsened by religious doctrines or practices that encourage a person to worry, this is what is called scrupulosity.
I do not believe God wants us worrying about such things. The fruit of the Christian life is not self-absorbtion, but the fruits of the Spirit- peace and joy and love, and so on. Anything that's an impediment to confidence in God's love and favor towards us does not come from God. We do not have to do anything to have God accept us as we are. And that is a difficult message for many people to accept.
I do not believe God wants us worrying about such things. The fruit of the Christian life is not self-absorbtion, but the fruits of the Spirit- peace and joy and love, and so on. Anything that's an impediment to confidence in God's love and favor towards us does not come from God. We do not have to do anything to have God accept us as we are. And that is a difficult message for many people to accept.
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God is Love, but how do we define this Love and measure this Love?
This Godly type Love is defined by Jesus’ words and deeds (you can also use 1 Cor 13 and 1 John 4), so what is that?
Can we measure the “love” one being has for another being by the amount the first being is willing to unselfishly sacrifice for the other being?
Is God this ultimate Lover? Would that “Love” compel even God to make beings that could Love like He Loves (this “Love of God” is totally unselfish [a measure of pure Love] and thus when given it is not for God’s sake at all, but is totally given for the sake of others)?
So if God is not doing anything for His own sake and everything for the sake of others, would He be expecting or needing anything from man or would God just be trying to give the greatest gifts possible He could give to man?
The reason this “Love” is the most powerful force in all universes is because it compels even God. So to have this Love would make us like God Himself, so why does God not just make us with this Love and place us in heaven?
There are some things that God just cannot do like create a being that was never created and the one important to us is instinctively create us with Godly type Love since that would be robotic type Love. God will also not force his love on us (a shotgun wedding) since that would be unloving on God’s part (there has to be reasonable alternatives to make it a choice [the perceived pleasures of sin]). The easiest way for us to get this Love is through accepting it as a pure charitable gift. The problem being humans (due in part to the needed survival instinct) do not like accepting Charity from a Giver that paid a huge price for the gift.
The easiest way for humans to accept God’s charity (Love) is out of a huge need and that need is the relief from the burden of hurting others in the past (sin). By accepting God’s forgiveness we accept God’s Love (mercy/grace/charity) and thus we will Love much since Jesus has taught us (we also see this in our own lives) “…he that is forgiven much will Love much…” Luke 7: 36-50.
Since God is “Love” and part of the definition of Godly type Love is unselfishness God is totally unselfish? If God is totally unselfish, He will do and allow all He can to help those that are just willing to accept His help to fulfill their objective (Love). That “all” includes: Christ to go to the cross, satan to roam the earth, tragedies of all kind, hell, evil, and even sin.
Will we know people do not like to accept charity especially from a giver that paid a huge price? People will try to earn the gift, pay back the gift, be more deserving of the gift than the next person or just say they got the gift without having to accept it. The easiest way to accept the gift is through accepting God’s forgiveness (this is after you have sinned) since forgiveness is charity, grace, mercy, Love
The problem is God wants us to be like He is (God’s Love is compelling Him to create beings that can Love like He Loves and made these beings for the sake of those that will accept His Love).
If we continue to refuse God’s Love and really do not want to Love unselfishly, where is there for us to go? Heaven is one huge Love feast so we would not be happy there and God wants us to be happy.
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After one has sinned and feels a burden in his/her heart from past actions that have hurt others. That can happen for any mature adult living anywhere in the world. That person can try many wrong methods to relieve his conscience, but the only way is through humbly turning to his creator for help and God is willing and wanting to help those children.
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Obsessive compulsive disorder is an entirely different matter than the Biblical mandate to examine yourself to see if you are in the faith. I can't see how our skipping over discussions of certain doctrines will help a person with mental illness of any kind.
I agree that God does not want us to worry. He wants us to rest in the sufficiency of Christ’s work on our behalf.
What God does want for some is illustrated by Luther’s fearful attitude before understanding justification by faith. He was in constant torment and questioned his salvation constantly. It is well that he did examine his salvation the way that he did. That fearful examination is what led to his true salvation and allowed him to extradite himself from a false religious view of salvation.
After his conversion he believed and taught about predestination (and election as well). Although they were never central to his teaching and preaching, he said for instance,"The human doctrine of free will and of our spiritual powers is futile. The matter (salvation) does not depend on our will but on God’s will and election. Since salvation is totally of God’s doing, the doctrine of election comforts those who believe. We can say, "I belong to God! I have been chosen by God. I am one of his sheep!"
In the case of John Bunyan the route of worry took a different path. In some ways Bunyan’s examination of his faith was similar to my own.
In John Bunyan’s autobiography, “Grace Abounding to the Chief of Sinners” – Bunyan says that for some time after his conversion he was tormented by questions about his salvation. He then tells us that his nagging doubts were settled forever - once he understood imputed righteousness properly.
I believe that, for many new believers, some concern about our salvation may be beneficial. It can force us to dig into the Word and understand the root of salvation better. The end result is a resting in God’s work for us.
In the case of people like Luther who are involved in a false works related path to salvation it is even more important. The very salvation of these people depends on finding out the truth.
Again though, just for emphasis, I say, predestination and election are not the same thing.
One can hold a view like I am putting forth concerning predestination and not believe in election.
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nobdysfool
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Who said anything about OCD? Some of us like to "look under the hood" so to speak, because we're curious how this all works. I wouldn't call that OCD.
Maybe the better way to say it is "I don't believe God wants ME to worry about such things". And that is fine. We all have different levels of spiritual maturity, and different functions within the Body of Christ. And learning about God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit is not something to be avoided.
I don't think that this is self-absorption, it comes more under the heading of "Study to show thyself approved, rightly dividing the Word of Truth"
I do agree that there are some who feel that they must in some way add to what God has done, in order either to gain or to keep their salvation.
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I'm not any much more clear than I was before. But thanks for trying anyway brother.
I do notice that you error mightily in saying that God does nothing for His own sake. Quite the opposite is the case.
Misunderstanding this basic principal as you do can and may have already led you into much error.
God's love for Himself is the most powerful force in the universe. That is what compels God.
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Luther never had a "conversion", he had assurance by coming to a clearer understanding of Scriptures that justification is something already done in his past through Christ, in his baptism and the sacraments of the Church. And he did not really understand election in the same way that a Calvinist in later centuries would. A Calvinist looks to sanctification or conversion experiences for signs they are elect, Luther looked to the sacraments. Election was a secondary matter in his theology. It's a different mindset than the Calvinist focused on interior examination. Like I said, Luther didn't think his discovery of Sola Fide saved him, it just gave him peace and confidence.
Bunyan actually had a spiritual experience that convinced him that Christ died for him and took away his sins. I believe the doctrinal understanding of imputed righteousness was a later matter. He was a hardcore English Baptist, a Calvinist, and believed God's election was mysterious and had nothing to do with baptism. Yet he struggled with sin, so he could never know for sure he was elect.
Bunyan actually had a spiritual experience that convinced him that Christ died for him and took away his sins. I believe the doctrinal understanding of imputed righteousness was a later matter. He was a hardcore English Baptist, a Calvinist, and believed God's election was mysterious and had nothing to do with baptism. Yet he struggled with sin, so he could never know for sure he was elect.
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