Belief in predestination is inevitable even if the Bible didn't say it was true.

[EmSw]

You said this:
"We know from the Old Testament Prophets, God did forgive people that truly sought God's forgiveness and repented, were forgiven without any mention of the"

To which I asked to finish your sentence:

Actually, Isaiah was fairly specific about the Messiah dying for mankind. Isaiah 53 clearly portrays the cross.

People were saved in the OT the same way we are in the NT; faith in Christ. Those in the OT looked ahead to the cross, and we look back to the cross. God's plan of salvation has never been different or changed.

In fact, it was preached in the garden of Eden after Adam and Eve rebelled.

Nothing is mentioned about a cross in the OT.
Nothing is mentioned of looking ahead to a cross.
The cross was not preached in the garden.

Assumption is not good theology.
Why not go to the OT and find out how God saved people.
Forgiveness was not based upon a cross.
Jesus forgave many people without any mention of a cross, or looking ahead to a cross.

What you will find in the Old and New Testament is repenting for the forgiveness of sins.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Nothing is mentioned about a cross in the OT.
Nothing is mentioned of looking ahead to a cross.
The cross was not preached in the garden.

This is just so sad. I cited passages. But each of us must understand for ourselves.

Assumption is not good theology.

I've assumed nothing.

Why not go to the OT and find out how God saved people.

My post already covered that.

Forgiveness was not based upon a cross.

I never said a cross was mentioned. What was mentioned was that the Messiah had to suffer for our sins. Please read Isa 53 and just try to not think of the cross, if you can.

Jesus forgave many people without any mention of a cross, or looking ahead to a cross.

He's God, ok? And He hadn't yet died for anyone. He forgave based on faith.

 

[EmSw]

This is just so sad. I cited passages. But each of us must understand for ourselves.

Understand what? You said OT people looked forward to the cross. Where do you find this? You said Isaiah 53 portrays the cross. Where do you find this? Please cite these passages (plural) again. You won't find one in the OT.

I've assumed nothing.

You sure didn't get anything about the cross from the OT.

My post already covered that.

Did you find any passages where they were saved looking forward to the cross?

I never said a cross was mentioned. What was mentioned was that the Messiah had to suffer for our sins. Please read Isa 53 and just try to not think of the cross, if you can.

Uh oh. Since I said, "Forgiveness is not based upon a cross", let's see what you said.

Bling wrote this -"We know from the Old Testament Prophets, God did forgive people that truly sought God's forgiveness and repented, were forgiven without any mention of the"

You responded with this - "To which I asked to finish your sentence:

Actually, Isaiah was fairly specific about the Messiah dying for mankind. Isaiah 53 clearly portrays the cross."

Sorry FG2, you did mention a cross.

He's God, ok? And He hadn't yet died for anyone. He forgave based on faith.

Where do you get this? Do you have any passages which state He hadn't yet died, so people had to look forward to His death to be forgiven?

Show me passages which state He forgives on faith. He forgives through repentance.

 

[bling]

Sure.

The problem is to have true Godly type Love, God cannot just place that Love in a person (make it instinctive) since that would not be Godly type Love, but robotic type love. To obtain and maintain this unique selfless Love the person has to make a sovereign free will choice.

 

[Marvin Knox]

The problem is to have true Godly type Love, God cannot just place that Love in a person (make it instinctive) since that would not be Godly type Love, but robotic type love. To obtain and maintain this unique selfless Love the person has to make a sovereign free will choice.

Agreed.

He could be saved by grace, through faith - and that not of himself. It is a gift of God.

He could exercise saving faith.

He could begin that process of working out his salvation all the while knowing that it was God working it out in Him according to His good pleasure.

He could begin his part in his transformation into the image of God's Son - just as God predestined to happen before the foundation of the world.

Of course - you do agree, don't you, that what we see in us is the results of the work of the Holy Spirt. It isn't our sovereign work is it?

It's a little like the wind, you see. We see the results of it. But that is not the wind.

"..... the love of God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us. Romans 5:5

 

[FreeGrace2]

Understand what? You said OT people looked forward to the cross. Where do you find this? You said Isaiah 53 portrays the cross. Where do you find this? Please cite these passages (plural) again. You won't find one in the OT.
You sure didn't get anything about the cross from the OT.
Did you find any passages where they were saved looking forward to the cross?
Uh oh. Since I said, "Forgiveness is not based upon a cross", let's see what you said.
Bling wrote this -"We know from the Old Testament Prophets, God did forgive people that truly sought God's forgiveness and repented, were forgiven without any mention of the"
You responded with this - "To which I asked to finish your sentence:
Actually, Isaiah was fairly specific about the Messiah dying for mankind. Isaiah 53 clearly portrays the cross."
Sorry FG2, you did mention a cross.
Where do you get this? Do you have any passages which state He hadn't yet died, so people had to look forward to His death to be forgiven?
Show me passages which state He forgives on faith. He forgives through repentance.

Apparently Isa 53 wasn't reviewed, huh. Sad.

Gen 15:6 - Then he believed in the LORD; and He reckoned (credited) it to him as righteousness. It is faith that is credited as righteousness, even in the OT.

Hab 2:4 - “Behold, as for the proud one, His soul is not right within him; But the righteous will live by his faith.
Nothing here about living by repentance.

And forgiveness was given in the OT the SAME WAY as in the NT. For the NT we have 1 Jn 1:9. For the OT, we see David's confession of sin:
Psa 32:1-5
When I kept silent about my sin (did not confess my sin), my body wasted away Through my groaning all day long. 4 For day and night Your hand was heavy upon me; My vitality was drained away as with the fever heat of summer. Selah. 5 I acknowledged my sin to You (confess my sin), And my iniquity I did not hide; I said, “I will confess my transgressions to the LORD”; And You forgave the guilt of my sin. Selah.

So we see that David was forgiven of his sin through CONFESSION, not repentance.

 

[bling]

Actually, Isaiah was fairly specific about the Messiah dying for mankind. Isaiah 53 clearly portrays the cross.

People were saved in the OT the same way we are in the NT; faith in Christ. Those in the OT looked ahead to the cross, and we look back to the cross. God's plan of salvation has never been different or changed.

In fact, it was preached in the garden of Eden after Adam and Eve rebelled.

I was referring to the fact in the OT where scripture talks about repenting and God forgiving it does not refer to Christ’s atoning sacrifice. Yes, there are lots of OT prophecies concerning the Christ and his being tortured, humiliated and murdered, but it is nor presented as being for their forgiveness and for the most part they did not understand. Here are some scriptures I use:


Jer. 15: 19 Therefore this is what the Lord says: “If you repent, I will restore you that you may serve me; if you utter worthy, not worthless, words, you will be my spokesman. Let this people turn to you, but you must not turn to them.

Micah 7:18 Who is a God like you, who pardons sin and forgives the transgression of the remnant of his inheritance? You do not stay angry forever but delight to show mercy.

Hosea 14: Return, Israel, to the Lord your God.

Your sins have been your downfall! 2

Take words with you

and return to the Lord.

Say to him:

“Forgive all our sins

and receive us graciously,

that we may offer the fruit of our lips.

Jer. 33: “‘Nevertheless, I will bring health and healing to it; I will heal my people and will let them enjoy abundant peace and security. 7 I will bring Judah and Israel back from captivity and will rebuild them as they were before. 8 I will cleanse them from all the sin they have committed against me and will forgive all their sins of rebellion against me. 9 Then this city will bring me renown, joy, praise and honor before all nations on earth that hear of all the good things I do for it; and they will be in awe and will tremble at the abundant prosperity and peace I provide for it.’

Jeremiah 36:3 Perhaps when the people of Judah hear about every disaster I plan to inflict on them, they will each turn from their wicked ways; then I will forgive their wickedness and their sin.”


Psalms 103 David said: 2 Praise the Lord, my soul, and forget not all his benefits—3 who forgives all your sins and heals all your diseases, 4 who redeems your life from the pi and crowns you with love and compassion, 5 who satisfies your desires with good things so that your youth is renewed like the eagle’s


You say: People were saved in the OT the same way we are in the NT; faith in Christ. Those in the OT looked ahead to the cross, and we look back to the cross. God's plan of salvation has never been different or changed.

That is not what Paul presented in Ro. 3:25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished—

“he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished” these “sins” seems to be referring to the sins God forgave prior to Christ going to the cross. This is given in contrast to what Paul said just previously, “God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness,”

If like you suggest “People were saved in the OT the same way…” there would be no contrast and the sins of the past would not have been left “unpunished” but would have been “punished” with Christ going to the cross.

Also, “punished” is maybe a poor translation here, since the Greek word could also be translated “disciplined”. We discipline our children, since punishment is punitive from our usage today. Scripture often translates disciplining with punishment and if we understand it that way we can use the word that way.

We today have the opportunity to be crucified “with” Christ, while those prior to Christ’s crucifixion could not and thus lacked that disciplining from their Father.

 

[bling]

Agreed.

He could be saved by grace, through faith - and that not of himself. It is a gift of God.

He could exercise saving faith.

He could begin that process of working out his salvation all the while knowing that it was God working it out in Him according to His good pleasure.

He could begin his part in his transformation into the image of God's Son - just as God predestined to happen before the foundation of the world.

Of course - you do agree, don't you, that what we see in us is the results of the work of the Holy Spirt. It isn't our sovereign work is it?

It's a little like the wind, you see. We see the results of it. But that is not the wind.

"..... the love of God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us. Romans 5:5

Yes, what we see in man without the Holy Spirit is worthlessness, but after a the person humbly sovereignly accepts God’s help than the Love pours through the spirit within them.

Man’s sovereign choice to humbly accept God’s Love, is not a “work” on his part and in fact it might be more of a macho effort to reject God’s help. Yes, God’s Love comes freely and bountifully to those that have sovereignly accepted it. Those Paul is addressing in Rome have already sovereignly accepted God’s Love in the form of forgiveness.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I was referring to the fact in the OT where scripture talks about repenting and God forgiving it does not refer to Christ’s atoning sacrifice. Yes, there are lots of OT prophecies concerning the Christ and his being tortured, humiliated and murdered, but it is nor presented as being for their forgiveness and for the most part they did not understand. Here are some scriptures I use:


Jer. 15: 19 Therefore this is what the Lord says: “If you repent, I will restore you that you may serve me; if you utter worthy, not worthless, words, you will be my spokesman. Let this people turn to you, but you must not turn to them.

Micah 7:18 Who is a God like you, who pardons sin and forgives the transgression of the remnant of his inheritance? You do not stay angry forever but delight to show mercy.

Hosea 14: Return, Israel, to the Lord your God.

Your sins have been your downfall! 2

Take words with you

and return to the Lord.

Say to him:

“Forgive all our sins

and receive us graciously,

that we may offer the fruit of our lips.

The discussion was about how to be saved in the OT vs the NT. Your view was that it was different while my view is that they were the same. What you've provided here isn't about getting saved, but coming back into fellowship with God. And yes, I agree, we need to repent in order to return to fellowship with God. Just as the prodigal had to repent (turn back) to restore fellowship with his father.

 

[Marvin Knox]

Yes, what we see in man without the Holy Spirit is worthlessness, but after a the person humbly sovereignly accepts God’s help than the Love pours through the spirit within them.

Man’s sovereign choice to humbly accept God’s Love, is not a “work” on his part and in fact it might be more of a macho effort to reject God’s help. Yes, God’s Love comes freely and bountifully to those that have sovereignly accepted it. Those Paul is addressing in Rome have already sovereignly accepted God’s Love in the form of forgiveness.

IMO - it would be best to leave the words sovereign and sovereignly out of your statements altogether - unless you are referring to God.

"which He will bring about at the proper time—He who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords," 1 Timothy 6:15

.

 

[nobdysfool]

IMO - it would be best to leave the words sovereign and sovereignly out of your statements altogether - unless you are referring to God.

"which He will bring about at the proper time—He who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords," 1 Timothy 6:15

.

I agree. Saying that man "sovereignly" does anything is patently untrue, and the idea of man having a "sovereign free will" is an oxymoron. God is Sovereign. Man is not.

 

[bcbsr]

If you believe the Bible is the Word of God - you believe in predestination. It is said very clearly to be true.

I would think the issue is not whether "predestination" is Biblical, but rather what does the Bible mean by "predestination".

Most of what the Bible refers to as "predestination" is referring to a category of people, the elect, whom God has predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ, to be saved, to receive the inheritance and reign with Christ. But an individual can exercise their free will to enter that category upon hearing the gospel.

 

[Marvin Knox]

I would think the issue is not whether "predestination" is Biblical, but rather what does the Bible mean by "predestination".

Yes. I agree. And the Bible means exactly what the word means. It means that the destiny of an individual is determined before the events that form that destiny take place.

Most of what the Bible refers to as "predestination" is referring to a category of people, the elect, whom God has predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ, to be saved, to receive the inheritance and reign with Christ.

Agreed. Most of the examples of predestination that we have been given in the Bible concern the destiny of those people you mention.

But an individual can exercise their free will to enter that category upon hearing the gospel.

I agree.

Just how free the will of fallen man is has been an ongoing topic of discussion among believers for some time.

But - in the general way in which most of us use the term "free will" I totally agree with what you say.

Free will and predestination are mutually compatible. What a person will do can be predestined by God and still be done of the free will of the individual.

In the prominent example of predestination that is usually referred to - all those predestined to be eventually glorified are called by God. All those called by God respond to that call in faith and are thus justified.

All such people in the example - those loved beforehand - those predestined to be glorified - those receiving the effectual call of God - those personally responding to that call in faith - have their destinies set long before the various events in their destiny take place.

In a similar manner - all those responding negatively to the gospel of their own free will were predestined to not be justified and glorified.

Free will and predestination are not incompatible.

 

[nobdysfool]

Yes. I agree. And the Bible means exactly what the word means. It means that the destiny of an individual is determined before the events that form that destiny take place.

Agreed. Most of the examples of predestination that we have been given in the Bible concern the destiny of those people you mention.

I agree.

Just how free the will of fallen man is has been an ongoing topic of discussion among believers for some time.

But - in the general way in which most of us use the term "free will" I totally agree with what you say.

Free will and predestination are mutually compatible. What a person will do can be predestined by God and still be done of the free will of the individual.

In the prominent example of predestination that is usually referred to - all those predestined to be eventually glorified are called by God. All those called by God respond to that call in faith and are thus justified.

All such people in the example - those loved beforehand - those predestined to be glorified - those receiving the effectual call of God - those personally responding to that call in faith - have their destinies set long before the various events in their destiny take place.

In a similar manner - all those responding negatively to the gospel of their own free will were predestined to not be justified and glorified.

Free will and predestination are not incompatible.

Simple logic would prove that if one is predestined to be glorified, he must of necessity be predestined to every step leading up to it, and since all of those steps are the experience of a Believer, that person must also be predestined to believe, and therefore, his salvation is predestined. the difficulty in understanding this is, as Marvin points out, the inability to grasp that predestination and free will are not incompatible.

Logically, there cannot be a certain, predestined outcome arise from uncertain prior actions and events. To predestine the end result requires that the actions and events leading up to it must also be predestined.

Where people run into problems is when they look at free will as more than what it actually is, i.e. "sovereign free will", or "contra-causal free will", or "libertarian free will", where fee will is seen as some sort of "balance" or "counterpoint" to God's Sovereign Free Will, and His Sovereignty in general. And the "proof" most often cited is "the ability to defy God", as though that were something virtuous and necessary, when that is what got mankind into trouble in the first place.

 

[bling]

IMO - it would be best to leave the words sovereign and sovereignly out of your statements altogether - unless you are referring to God.

"which He will bring about at the proper time—He who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords," 1 Timothy 6:15

.

(NIV) 1 Tim. 6: 15 which God will bring about in his own time—God, the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords,

The Greek word is δυνάστης or transliterated dynastēs for ruler in NIV or “sovereign” in RSV which means a prince, a potentate

 

[nobdysfool]

(NIV) 1 Tim. 6: 15 which God will bring about in his own time—God, the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords,

The Greek word is δυνάστης or transliterated dynastēs for ruler in NIV or “sovereign” in RSV which means a prince, a potentate

And you ain't no Potentate, even of your own life....

 

[bling]

And you ain't no Potentate, even of your own life....

It does not mean the potentate controls every decision, but the Potentate cannot be over rules and He/she can overrule anyone else.

 

[Marvin Knox]

It does not mean the potentate controls every decision, but the Potentate cannot be over rules and He/she can overrule anyone else.

So since you are a sovereign potentate who can overrule anyone else, does that mean you can overrule
God?

Hint - There can only be one sovereign on the throne at a time.

By the way - it's OK to occasionally just say something like, "Oh, I didn't think of it that way. You may be right on that. I'll get back to you after I've thought about it some more."

If something you've held on to is shown to be illogical or something - there's no shame in that. We're all in this figuring out what the Bible teaches thing together. Are we not?

 

[bling]

So since you are a sovereign potentate who can overrule anyone else, does that mean you can overrule
God?

Hint - There can only be one sovereign on the throne at a time.

By the way - it's OK to occasionally just say something like, "Oh, I didn't think of it that way. You may be right on that. I'll get back to you after I've thought about it some more."

If something you've held on to is shown to be illogical or something - there's no shame in that. We're all in this figuring out what the Bible teaches thing together. Are we not?

These comment seem strange to my comment: It does not mean the potentate controls every decision, but the Potentate cannot be over rules and He/she can overrule anyone else.

God is the only potentate! God does allow mature adults to make at least one sovereign choice to accept or reject God’s Love, but that does not mean man is a potentate, since man cannot rule over God or anyone else? God has the potentate power to allow man this choice.

Can a non-spiritual “potentate” ruler here on earth: allow subordinates to make some limited decisions without giving up being a potentate?

 

[Marvin Knox]

Can a non-spiritual “potentate” ruler here on earth: allow subordinates to make some limited decisions without giving up being a potentate?

Of course an earthly king can and does allow his subjects to make decisions.

God (our spiritual sovereign) can and does as well.

Men can and do make decisions according to their personal will and according to what decisions they are predestined by God to make.

"Come now, you who say, “Today or tomorrow we will go to such and such a city, and spend a year there and engage in business and make a profit.” Yet you do not know what your life will be like tomorrow. You are just a vapor that appears for a little while and then vanishes away. Instead, you ought to say, “If the Lord wills, we will live and also do this or that.” James 4:13-15

Within the framework of you and I being the creation, we make decisions all the time. One of those decisions was our response to the gospel when we heard it.

We personally responded positively to the gospel. We are saved by grace through that response of faith.

But, now that we have matured in our understanding of the scriptures, let's agree that it is only by grace that we came to make that decision. He is the author of our saving faith.

He is also the one who predestined before we even existed that we would come to faith during our brief lifetime.

You and I are real people who make real decisions that effect our lives. We will be held responsible for those decisions.

God is our friend and relates in a personal way to us. We aren't robots or automatons and we aren't mere figments of God's imagination. And yet the scripture says that we live and breath and have our being in God.

It is, admittedly, a great mystery. But we need to learn to acknowledge the mystery and learn to live with it.

He is God and we are His creation. I've learned to love that fact. I wouldn't want to be independent of God even if that were possible. Lucifer insisted on trying that for a while and you know how that will work out for him.

The necessary results of wanting independence from our creator is lesson of the ages. Why Christians want to deny that we are completely dependent on God for all things is a mystery to me.