Belief in predestination is inevitable even if the Bible didn't say it was true.

[nobdysfool]

But, since you want more.

NAB Jeremiah 7:31 In the Valley of Ben-hinnom they have built the high place of Topheth to immolate in fire their sons and their daughters, such a thing as I never commanded or had in mind. (Jer 7:31 NAB)

Now, explain how that relates to what Marvin has been unfolding.

 

[nobdysfool]

The issue with circular reasoning, regarding the idea that everything is ordered/ordained, is in the lack of understanding of this simple fact, regarding God.

"Knowing a thing, is not the same as causing it".

Once a person who is confused regarding "what causes destiny" comes to understand this fact concerning >foreknowledge<, then they are able to escape their >stuck in a mental rut< thinking process.

Care to expand on that? Not sure what your point is.

 

[Butch5]

Now, explain how that relates to what Marvin has been unfolding.

You saw what I quoted. Here it is again,

Isn't predestination of all things as I view it the only logical position considering what we know about God from His Word?

If something happened that didn't even come to God's mind then He obviously didn't predestine it, thus all things are not predestined.

 

[Marvin Knox]

The issue with circular reasoning, regarding the idea that everything is ordered/ordained, is in the lack of understanding of this simple fact, regarding God.

"Knowing a thing, is not the same as causing it".

Once a person who is confused regarding "what causes destiny" comes to understand this fact concerning >foreknowledge<, then they are able to escape their >stuck in a mental rut< thinking process.

Thanks for the heads up brother.

I worked through the "what causes destiny confusion" some time ago.

As you rightly point out, the first thing to know is, "Knowing a thing, is not the same as causing it".

Omniscience does not equate to pre destiny. I confronted that charge some time ago.

I don't and never would say that they are the same.

What does equate to predestination is God's of His own volition starting a sequence of events that He knows beforehand will end in certain destinies.

The knowledge of an omniscient God does not equate to His predestining something to happen.

The actions of an omniscient God equate to His predestining something to happen.

You are right in saying that knowing a thing is not the same as causing it - quite logical.

By the way, I don't know of a single Reformed theologian who has said that it is.

 

[nobdysfool]

You saw what I quoted. Here it is again,



If something happened that didn't even come to God's mind then He obviously didn't predestine it, thus all things are not predestined.

Did He know about it before it happened? If so, and He did nothing to prevent it, then His allowing it to happen equates to it being predestined to happen, as a result of the Creation itself, being the result of a long chain of prior events, choices, and actions. Nothing happens in a vacuum; all events, actions and choices are the result of prior events, actions, and choices, and cause further events, actions and choices to occur.

Predestination is not limited to deliberate decree on the part of God, which seems to be where you're coming from.

 

[DeepWater]

Care to expand on that? Not sure what your point is.

Sure.
It goes like this NBF.

are you going to eat later, or have something to drink?
will you take a shower later or in the morning?

so, if you are going to eat, is God going to choose the meal, the time, the location, how hot or cold the food is, as well as how many times you chew each bite?

And if you have a drink later, or a few,... is God choosing tea, pepsi, filtered water, or "other" for you, and how many times you will have each, and in what container you will use or if you drink out of the container?

And when you take the shower, will God have you use the soap you are using and the towel and that particular shampoo.....and has he ordained HOW you are going to dry off your body, and where you will stand in the shower and where you'll stand when you dry your hair?

So, do you see the issue that the person who believes that "everything is pre-ordained" is deep into, because they dont THINK IT THROUGH?
The Buddhist's have this same messed up concept about "destiny", as "all things pre-ordained to happen exactly as....blah, blah.....BLAH"

See, the people who are locked into "predestined" circular reasoning "logic"..... >they only think about the big issues that the Omnipotent God is "designing< but the problem is, you cant have it that way.
Understand that once you start claiming that God is in the manufacturing of MOMENTS business, for each and every person and every thing......all the time,.... you then have concluded that God is managing<> CAUSING everything... and at that point the theory gets ugly.
He would even be managing what you are thinking about what i just wrote and he would be dictating back to me through you, what you are going to say.... as this would be "ordained"
He would be causing a German to Kill a lot of Jews.
He would be causing thousand of Pedophiles to have NO OTHER CHOICE but to be .........
Do you SEE IT?
Do you see that you cant just pick and choose what parts of "ordained" that you get to think God is causing?
No, you have to have it all the way, or stop believing nonsense.
You actually have to believe, if you are locked into the CR-Mindset, that God causes the EVIL as well as the GOOD.
ALL OF IT IS PREORDAINED.....
And at that point, you better rethink what you are attributing to the Holy One.

So, once you see it, you are free from it.
And if you've already seen it, then you are already free.

 

[Marvin Knox]

Not only does God's choosing and starting of a sequence of events equate to predestination - His active involvement at the smallest subatomic level to the largest level imaginable makes Him intricately associated with bringing those destinies to past.

“For as the rain and the snow come down from heaven,
And do not return there without watering the earth
And making it bear and sprout,
And furnishing seed to the sower and bread to the eater;
So will My word be which goes forth from My mouth;
It will not return to Me empty,
Without accomplishing what I desire,
And without succeeding in the matter for which I sent it. Isaiah 55:10-11

"He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together." Colossians 1:15-17

 

[nobdysfool]

Sure.
It goes like this NBF.

are you going to eat later, or have something to drink?
will you take a shower later or in the morning?

so, if you are going to eat, is God going to choose the meal, the time, the location, how hot or cold the food is, as well as how many times you chew each bite?

And if you have a drink later, or a few,... is God choosing tea, pepsi, filtered water, or "other" for you, and how many times you will have each, and in what container you will use or if you drink out of the container?

And when you take the shower, will God have you use the soap you are using and the towel and that particular shampoo.....and has he ordained HOW you are going to dry off your body, and where you will stand in the shower and where you'll stand when you dry your hair?

So, do you see the issue that the person who believes that "everything is pre-ordained" is deep into, because they dont THINK IT THROUGH?
The Buddhist's have this same messed up concept about "destiny", as "all things pre-ordained to happen exactly as....blah, blah.....BLAH"

See, the people who are locked into "predestined" circular reasoning "logic"..... >they only think about the big issues that the Omnipotent God is "designing< but the problem is, you cant have it that way.
Understand that once you start claiming that God is in the manufacturing of MOMENTS business, for each and every person and every thing......all the time,.... you then have concluded that God is managing<> CAUSING everything... and at that point the theory gets ugly.
He would even be managing what you are thinking about what i just wrote and he would be dictating back to me through you, what you are going to say.... as this would be "ordained"
He would be causing a German to Kill a lot of Jews.
He would be causing thousand of Pedophiles to have NO OTHER CHOICE but to be .........
Do you SEE IT?
Do you see that you cant just pick and choose what parts of "ordained" that you get to think God is causing?
No, you have to have it all the way, or stop believing nonsense.
You actually have to believe, if you are locked into the CR-Mindset, that God causes the EVIL as well as the GOOD.
ALL OF IT IS PREORDAINED.....
And at that point, you better rethink what you are attributing to the Holy One.

So, once you see it, you are free from it.
And if you've already seen it, then you are already free.

OK, I get your point now, just wanted to be sure I wasn't assuming you said something you didn't say (too much of that in this forum already). And I agree.

Marvin posted a very good response, as well.

 

[seekingsolace]

so, if you are going to eat, is God going to choose the meal, the time, the location, how hot or cold the food is, as well as how many times you chew each bite?

See, the people who are locked into "predestined" circular reasoning "logic"..... >they only think about the big issues that the Omnipotent God is "designing< but the problem is, you cant have it that way.

Using an example: God has planned for you to reach out and bring others to hear the Gospel at some point in your life. You are going to unknowingly eat food which will fatally kill you, does God let you do this, since it thwarts His plan for you? Is it your foot that directs you out of the way of incoming traffic or the gentle push of God?

God may not directly make you eat an apple rather than an orange today, but if it does not align with His purpose, then you certainly will.

 

[Marvin Knox]

If something happened that didn't even come to God's mind then He obviously didn't predestine it, thus all things are not predestined.

If something happened that didn't come to God's mind then He obviously didn't know about it, thus God does not know all things - thus He is not omniscient???????

God obviously knows all that happens and has always known all that happens.

God didn't command evil men to nail His Son to a tree either.

But I'm quite sure that He predestined it to happen.

"this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death. Acts 2:23

Let's let scripture interpret scripture and not cherry pick verses to use a you see fit.

 

[Marvin Knox]

Sure.
It goes like this NBF.

are you going to eat later, or have something to drink?
will you take a shower later or in the morning?

so, if you are going to eat, is God going to choose the meal, the time, the location, how hot or cold the food is, as well as how many times you chew each bite?

And if you have a drink later, or a few,... is God choosing tea, pepsi, filtered water, or "other" for you, and how many times you will have each, and in what container you will use or if you drink out of the container?

And when you take the shower, will God have you use the soap you are using and the towel and that particular shampoo.....and has he ordained HOW you are going to dry off your body, and where you will stand in the shower and where you'll stand when you dry your hair?

So, do you see the issue that the person who believes that "everything is pre-ordained" is deep into, because they dont THINK IT THROUGH?

I have thought it through quite a few times.

One of the most frequent lapses in logic that we encounter when considering predestination is the flawed assumption that God cannot have predestined the free choices of men and angels. It is an error of logic to say that predestination and free choice are not compatible.

Some of my Calvinist friends will likely disagree with me here. But God can and does predestine with consideration to what men will do of their own will.

**** In this respect it depends upon what the writers of the WCF meant by the statement in “Eternal Decrees” point number 2 – whether I can agree with it or not. If I take point number 2 the way that many Calvinists do – then I would be in disagreement with the that particular statement in the WCF.

The Buddhist's have this same messed up concept about "destiny", as "all things pre-ordained to happen exactly as....blah, blah.....BLAH"

The Buddhist’s concept of destiny is quite a bit different than the Christian concept of destiny. The biggest reason that it is so different is that most Buddhist’s do not believe that the world was created by a God. Consequently, they do not believe that this world is ruled by a God of any kind.

... and at that point the theory gets ugly.

It gets “ugly” no matter how you look at things – if you are a Christian and believe the Bible.


It is even uglier if you believe that God merely allows these horrible things to happen without any good coming from them. I have address that many times in the past.


“Skala” has a thread going that addresses the fact that the Reformed view is less problematic. He is approaching it from a discussion of God creating people He knew would end up in Hell. His thread is “If God doesn't want anyone in hell...”

That would be worth looking at it you are interested in doing so.

 

[Butch5]

Did He know about it before it happened? If so, and He did nothing to prevent it, then His allowing it to happen equates to it being predestined to happen, as a result of the Creation itself, being the result of a long chain of prior events, choices, and actions. Nothing happens in a vacuum; all events, actions and choices are the result of prior events, actions, and choices, and cause further events, actions and choices to occur.

Predestination is not limited to deliberate decree on the part of God, which seems to be where you're coming from.

So we get to define the words however we desire?

 

[Butch5]

If something happened that didn't come to God's mind then He obviously didn't know about it, thus God does not know all things - thus He is not omniscient???????

God obviously knows all that happens and has always known all that happens.

God didn't command evil men to nail His Son to a tree either.

But I'm quite sure that He predestined it to happen.

"this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death. Acts 2:23

Let's let scripture interpret scripture and not cherry pick verses to use a you see fit.

He didn't command it, thus He didn't predetermine it.

 

[nobdysfool]

So we get to define the words however we desire?

I could ask the same question of you. Address what has been written to you in answer to your statements.

 

[nobdysfool]

He didn't command it, thus He didn't predetermine it.

Scripture says it was fore-ordained. What does that mean, if not decreed, or commanded? Did He just hope it would happen, or did He wish for it to happen, with no assurance that it would?

 

[Marvin Knox]

He didn't command it, thus He didn't predetermine it.

One hardly knows where to start with such a statement.

You don't need to command something directly to "predetermine" the results if you know what will happen if you do a certain series of events.

I could predestine you to be killed by a lion. I would hardly have to give the lion a direct command. All I'd have to do is lock you in the cage with the lion and walk away for a few days. It's a guaranteed result - and I'm not even omniscient.

Are you saying that God didn't "predetermine" what those evil men would do to Jesus?

Do you think God just became fully human and let the chips fall where they may?

I thought Christ was sent into the world for exactly that reason.

There sure wasn't any chance that evil men would just put Him in jail for 50 years and let Him die of old age.

What would God have done then - come up with a sacrificial system in Israel that redeemed the lost through the act of dying of old age and not the shedding of blood?

 

[EmSw]

Did He know about it before it happened? If so, and He did nothing to prevent it, then His allowing it to happen equates to it being predestined to happen

Marvin says predestination is the 'actions' of God, while you say He did 'nothing' to prevent it.

What is it, the 'actions' of God, or His doing 'nothing'?

 

[EmSw]

Not only does God's choosing and starting of a sequence of events equate to predestination - His active involvement at the smallest subatomic level to the largest level imaginable makes Him intricately associated with bringing those destinies to past.

“For as the rain and the snow come down from heaven,
And do not return there without watering the earth
And making it bear and sprout,
And furnishing seed to the sower and bread to the eater;
So will My word be which goes forth from My mouth;
It will not return to Me empty,
Without accomplishing what I desire,
And without succeeding in the matter for which I sent it. Isaiah 55:10-11

"He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together." Colossians 1:15-17

The verses in Colossians have nothing to do with predestination as you have defined it. All believers know He created all things, and they have been created through Him and for Him, and that all things hold together in Him. This does not bear upon Him deciding beforehand (predestination) the destiny of all things.

Why use the Isaiah passages to justify predestination? He has not given any word on the events unfolding today.

Let's look at the passages.

For as the rain and the snow come down from heaven... equates with...So will My word be which goes forth from My mouth...
And do not return there without watering the earth... equates with...It will not return to Me empty
And making it bear and sprout...equates with...Without accomplishing what I desire
And furnishing seed to the sower and bread to the eater...equates with...And without succeeding in the matter for which I sent it.

His word is sent to water (not cause drought), to make things bear and sprout (not make things unfruitful), and furnishing seed to the sower and bread to the eater (not to withdraw seed), thus negating bread to the user.

His word is sent for the good of mankind, not for harm nor destruction. It is sent to water, so things bear and sprout, thus furnishing seed and bread. How strange it is man thinks God sends His word for the detriment of mankind. If God is good, then only good can proceed from Him.

 

[nobdysfool]

The verses in Colossians have nothing to do with predestination as you have defined it. All believers know He created all things, and they have been created through Him and for Him, and that all things hold together in Him. This does not bear upon Him deciding beforehand (predestination) the destiny of all things.

Why use the Isaiah passages to justify predestination? He has not given any word on the events unfolding today.

Let's look at the passages.

For as the rain and the snow come down from heaven... equates with...So will My word be which goes forth from My mouth...
And do not return there without watering the earth... equates with...It will not return to Me empty
And making it bear and sprout...equates with...Without accomplishing what I desire
And furnishing seed to the sower and bread to the eater...equates with...And without succeeding in the matter for which I sent it.

His word is sent to water (not cause drought), to make things bear and sprout (not make things unfruitful), and furnishing seed to the sower and bread to the eater (not to withdraw seed), thus negating bread to the user.

His word is sent for the good of mankind, not for harm nor destruction. It is sent to water, so things bear and sprout, thus furnishing seed and bread. How strange it is man thinks God sends His word for the detriment of mankind. If God is good, then only good can proceed from Him.

Isa 45:7 KJV I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

 

[EmSw]

Isa 45:7 KJV I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

What does this have to do with predestination?