Belief in predestination is inevitable even if the Bible didn't say it was true.

[FreeGrace2]

He is also the one who predestined before we even existed that we would come to faith during our brief lifetime.

You and I are real people who make real decisions that effect our lives. We will be held responsible for those decisions.

To be clear, if by "predestined" means that God knew our independent decisions, then, ok. But it seems so many people understand "predestined" to mean that God decided what each decision would be. Not just knew them, but made the decision Himself.

For clarification, please explain the difference between "predestine" and "knows". That would be helpful.

God is our friend and relates in a personal way to us. We aren't robots or automatons and we aren't mere figments of God's imagination. And yet the scripture says that we live and breath and have our being in God.

It is, admittedly, a great mystery. But we need to learn to acknowledge the mystery and learn to live with it.

I don't see a mystery here. What, exactly is the mystery?

He is God and we are His creation. I've learned to love that fact. I wouldn't want to be independent of God even if that were possible. Lucifer insisted on trying that for a while and you know how that will work out for him.

Man's decisions are inded independent, if man's decisions are freely made. But God has provided everything man needs to make right choices. Rom 1:19-20 says that God has revealed Himself so that men are without excuse.
2 Pet 1:3 says that God has "granted to us everything pertaining to life and godliness, through the true knowledge of Him who called us by His own glory and excellence."

The necessary results of wanting independence from our creator is lesson of the ages. Why Christians want to deny that we are completely dependent on God for all things is a mystery to me.

What about Jesus' parable of the prodigal? He was a son and wanted complete independence from his father, and his father granted it. Was Jesus equating the father in that parable with our Heavenly Father or someone else?

 

[Marvin Knox]

For clarification, please explain the difference between "predestine" and "knows". That would be helpful.

I had a lengthy explanation prepared to post. I almost sent it out. But I have said most of these things before. I feel like I'd just be opening up a situation where we'd have trouble again - just as always.

So I'll just say it really briefly. I'm not interested in arguing it out with you.

It isn't God's knowing things that could possibly occur that makes them predestined to occur. That knowing is omniscience.

It isn't God's knowing that things will actually occur that makes them predestinated. That knowing is also omniscience.

What makes something predestined by God to occur is God's actually acting in such a way that virtually assures that those things will happen.

For instance - God knows that I will do a certain thing at a certain instant in my life if certain circumstances are a certain way. That's omniscience. In the mind of God that is omniscience concerning a possibility.

But if the world were totally different than what He is considering and the circumstances were not exactly the same I might well do something else - if in that particular world I could do anything at all and wasn't something else than a man with free will.

God has to create the exact circumstances in which I will make the decision. When He creates that world and those circumstances knowing full well what I will do in that situation - He is predestining my response.

But none of that changes in any way the fact that it will be my own response - for which I will be held accountable.

And just a reminder of the obvious here. If God truly knows anything at all that will happen - there is no power in the world that can make it not happen. The destiny of that event or person's choice is set in stone. And - God knew it before that person was even living. Therefore - everything we do was predestined to occur.

The actions taken by God take a possible scenario (like the entire history of the universe, both in Heaven and on earth) from a mere possibility (from an infinite number of possibilities) to an actual occurrence.

Nothing in creation just happens. There is no creation without God’s creating and sustaining Word. Nothing in nature happens in a vacuum. No decision you make is made in a vacuum either. There is no vacuum. God fills Heaven and earth.

God has to speak things into existence. God has to sustain His creation. Anything less and it simply ceases to exist.

The scriptures are also clear that God providentially controls His creation in every way from our health to our life spans to the movements of nations and planets. Everything that happens is the results of a certain string of events – events which God controls.

God set it all up so that it will happen, for the most part, through "natural" causes or actions. These “second causes” do not remove nor are they removed by His Word or decrees - rather they establish each other.

If He predestining 30" of rain this year on such and such island - there are multiplied trillions of actions by God that make it sure that it will be so. But that doesn't remove the second causes involved - like evaporation, wind currents, global warming et all.

The same is true for our actions. He acts - and within those actions we act. He determines our life spans and yet our decisions play an integral part in how His predetermined result will play out. We decide things and in so deciding we establish what He has already predestined to happen. Our free choices in many cases are the way that God has chosen to bring about what He has predestined to occur.

Predestination (His acting to make His decree a reality) is not in conflict with our decisions. Rather they both form part of the way He brings things He wishes to happen to past.

“Come now, you who say, “Today or tomorrow we will go to such and such a city, and spend a year there and engage in business and make a profit.”Yet you do not knowwhat your life will be like tomorrow.You arejusta vapor that appears for a little while and then vanishes away.Instead,you oughtto say, “If the Lord wills, we will live and also do this or that.” James 4:13-15

That example is of some business dealings. But the principle plays out in everything and every decision. Like nature itself, we exist and function from our standpoint as if God were not involved. But rest assured that He is. If He had not orchestrated events so that something could happen – it could not happen.

You disagree. That’s fine with me. I won’t argue with you.

But now you know what the difference is between something that God simply knows about and something that He has predestined to be. God’s omniscience doesn’t predestine events. His actions predestine events.

Everything in God’s creation is predestined to occur and God is the one who predestined it to occur.

If it is too challenging to think about the fact that you have your very being in Him – and if it is too challenging to think about the fact that He is omnipresent in every component of every atom in your body including the chemicals and synapses of your brain which even allow you to make decisions---- then fine.

Think of it, if you must, only in terms of God “starting the ball rolling” in such a way that what He knows will occur will indeed eventually occur. That’s still Him predestining what He knows will happen to happen.

I believe that your theology will be the poorer if you only skirt around the edges that way. But that’s up to you.

I don't see a mystery here. What, exactly is the mystery?

The mystery is how we cannot be mere robots in a situation where we have our very being in Him.

Also eventually we come up against the mystery of the presence of evil.

Some skirt the issue by simply saying that God “allows” it to occur. Some shout “free will” and go on about their way as if they had explained it all.

Others think about God’s multiplied trillions of actions that allowed and even seemingly caused evil things to occur. Some think about the fact that God is omnipresent and without division in every bullet, every bomb, every diseased cell and whatever else you might want to consider.

I’m of that later group. It would be easier to just go with the first group and cop out. But I don’t think that’s a good systematic theology method.

From the Reformed theologian’s standpoint (who thinks about things such as those last two sentences) it comes down to his saying that God is sovereignly in control of everything and yet is without sin – the sin only proceeds from the creation. He also points to the examples of God doing good through evil in the scriptures. He says that God is doing good in some way through every evil thing you could name in history as well.

Granted – that’s a hard thing to grasp. But there it is in scripture. “Though He slay me - yet will I trust Him.”

Some are satisfied to just whistle through the graveyard and say that “allowing” and “free choice” removes the problem.

People like me say baloney. When you open your eyes and stop whistling the problems are still there even if you’re an Arminian or whatever else there may be.

Mine is the more thorough theology IMO. Others must construct a world view different from the one given us in scripture to believe what they believe. I, on the other hand, have attempted to believe it all. I am more than satisfied with the picture I hold of how things work.

What about Jesus' parable of the prodigal? He was a son and wanted complete independence from his father, and his father granted it. Was Jesus equating the father in that parable with our Heavenly Father or someone else?

We are all prodigals. We all must make a decision as to whether or not we will return to the Father and be saved. It's our decisions to make. We have free will.

But that personal decision, whatever it may be, was predestined by God - as is everything else in His creation.

His predestination of what a choice will be doesn't remove your free will in making that choice. Nor does your free will remove His predestination. Rather they establish each other.

My view isn’t classic Calvinism. I never claimed that it was. It is just a balanced view of what the Word of God teaches about God’s sovereignty vs. free will.

Although I vary somewhat from both of them – you could refer to Bruce Ware concerning the extent of the atonement and William Craig concerning middle knowledge (or “Molinism”) for some rough ideas of where I personally come from on a couple of things.

http://www.epm.org/static/uploads/downloads/Extent_of_the_Atonement_by_Bruce_Ware.pdf

http://www.reasonablefaith.org/

I’m not interested in going post to post with you. I just wanted to get back to you in case you really didn’t understand. I hope this clarifies somewhat – even if you disagree with me.

As for me - summer is here and I'm pretty burned out on this forum business at least for the summer and maybe for all time.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I had a lengthy explanation prepared to post. I almost sent it out. But I have said most of these things before. I feel like I'd just be opening up a situation where we'd have trouble again - just as always.

So I'll just say it really briefly. I'm not interested in arguing it out with you.

It isn't God's knowing things that could possibly occur that makes them predestined to occur. That knowing is omniscience.

It isn't God's knowing that things will actually occur that makes them predestinated. That knowing is also omniscience.

What makes something predestined by God to occur is God's actually acting in such a way that virtually assures that those things will happen.

OK, finally, a statement about predestination that means that God causes sin. The thread is that everything is predestinated. Well, since sin occurs, and IF everything has been predestinated, then God most assuredly has caused sin to occur.

There is zero justification for such an idea from Scripture. Because of sin, we can be assurred that not everything has been predestinated.

Because God knows everything that will occur, He doesn't need to predestinate everything.

And just a reminder of the obvious here. If God truly knows anything at all that will happen - there is no power in the world that can make it not happen.

The destiny of that event or person's choice is set in stone. And - God knew it before that person was even living. Therefore - everything we do was predestined to occur.

But, you've just said that God acts in such a way as to assure everything will happen, so how can any "choice" be other than what God chose it to be? That's the rub for reformed theology.

Under your view, there can be no real free choice, since it is God who assures everything that happens. That means He chose.

I do wish you a very happy summer!

 

[EmSw]

What makes something predestined by God to occur is God's actually acting in such a way that virtually assures that those things will happen.

So people, when you sin, it is God actually acting in such a way, it virtually assures you will sin. Is this in the Bible? No! In fact, countless times, God has told us NOT to sin. He has told us to cast our iniquities away, flee sin, sin no more, put off darkness, put away evil, cease to do evil, and so forth.

For instance - God knows that I will do a certain thing at a certain instant in my life if certain circumstances are a certain way. That's omniscience. In the mind of God that is omniscience concerning a possibility.

But if the world were totally different than what He is considering and the circumstances were not exactly the same I might well do something else - if in that particular world I could do anything at all and wasn't something else than a man with free will.

If in a particular world as described above, you are a man with free will.

Pay attention, these are clever wordings to confuse and bite you.

God has to create the exact circumstances in which I will make the decision. When He creates that world and those circumstances knowing full well what I will do in that situation - He is predestining my response.

But none of that changes in any way the fact that it will be my own response - for which I will be held accountable.

Pay attention again. If God created the exact circumstances in which He predestines you to make a decision, you will not be accountable for His actions.

This is akin to rounding up cattle with three gates for the cattle to enter. You keep two gates closed so the cattle will enter only the open gate. Then you proudly say, 'see, the cattle had three gates to enter, but decided on their own to enter the open gate'.

And just a reminder of the obvious here. If God truly knows anything at all that will happen - there is no power in the world that can make it not happen. The destiny of that event or person's choice is set in stone. And - God knew it before that person was even living. Therefore - everything we do was predestined to occur.

To God, it is not what 'will' happen; it is what is happening before Him at the present. It's akin to knowing what the lottery numbers are in next week's drawing. Do you have to predestine it for those numbers to appear? No! If you know what they are in advance, they will appear without any predestination.

The actions taken by God take a possible scenario (like the entire history of the universe, both in Heaven and on earth) from a mere possibility (from an infinite number of possibilities) to an actual occurrence.

Nothing in creation just happens. There is no creation without God’s creating and sustaining Word. Nothing in nature happens in a vacuum. No decision you make is made in a vacuum either. There is no vacuum. God fills Heaven and earth.

God has to speak things into existence. God has to sustain His creation. Anything less and it simply ceases to exist.

To God all things have already occurred. He knows what will happen tomorrow and the days beyond. If He has to predestine it to occur, then His omniscience is lacking. He's not sure it will occur as He already knows, so He needs to predestine it so it occurs in accordance to His omniscience.

The same is true for our actions. He acts - and within those actions we act. He determines our life spans and yet our decisions play an integral part in how His predetermined result will play out. We decide things and in so deciding we establish what He has already predestined to happen. Our free choices in many cases are the way that God has chosen to bring about what He has predestined to occur.

Here again, He acts, and we sin. Think about it. Man would be sinless if God did not predestine it; we would have a perfect world with no sickness, no war, no poverty, no hate, no sorrow, no heartache, no disappointment, if only God had predestined the world this way.

Why would a loving and just God want the world this way? Does He receive delight to see people in such woeful conditions?

Predestination (His acting to make His decree a reality) is not in conflict with our decisions. Rather they both form part of the way He brings things He wishes to happen to past.

Is it God's decree for man to sin? Is it God's decree for this world's filth? Pay attention! According to the above statement, this is what He wishes, and He acts to make this a reality. So if you are in some kind of pain, sickness, financial trouble, evil sin, burdensome problems, and/or utter sorrow, predestination says God acts to bring about such misery on you.

His predestination of what a choice will be doesn't remove your free will in making that choice. Nor does your free will remove His predestination. Rather they establish each other.

The above statement wasn't thought out well. Predestination does not establish free will, nor does free will establish predestination. If God decrees what choice will be made by man, free will is absolutely null and void. Why does man need to make decisions when God has already made them?

When a puppeteer moves the left arm of a puppet, does the puppet really decide for himself to move his left arm? One may say they establish one another, but nothing could be further from the truth. Just saying they establish each other does not make it so.

I will give verses from Matthew 23 to see if they establish each other.

37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!
38 See! Your house is left to you desolate;

From the above passages, what would be God's predestination for Israel?
Try this - HOW OFTEN I WANTED TO GATHER YOUR CHILDREN TOGETHER!

This is what God wanted and (predestined) for Israel, to gather them under His wings.

But then Jesus said this - BUT YOU WERE NOT WILLING! So, how does man's will in this passage establish God's predestination? It doesn't establish, but cancel His predestination.

Did Jesus not know that it wasn't God's predestination to gather them?
Did Jesus lie when He said He wanted to gather them?
Did man's will override His predestination for them?
What was His predestination for Israel - to gather them, or leave their house desolate?

 

[Marvin Knox]

OK, finally.............................

What the heck does that mean?

I've said nothing here that I haven't said a dozen or more times on this thread and at least a dozen more times all over the forum.

It's also something that you might hear from several million Christians and many of the church's best and brightest theologians over the centuries.

Don't act like you've discovered something new and exciting here.

 

[Chicken Little]

"then you believe in predestination"

I think we have bad translation issues.. pre-knowledge doesn't mean he Made people do something.

one of the last instructions in the bible says....
Rev 22:11

He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
it is about each mans choices .


because men choose who and what they will be. " these things must come but WOE TO THE ONE THROUGH WHOM IT COMES" . That is all about a person choice and NOT HIS ! foreknowledge is not really a causing.

 

[Marvin Knox]

"then you believe in predestination"

I think we have bad translation issues.. pre-knowledge doesn't mean he Made people do something.

one of the last instructions in the bible says....
Rev 22:11

He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
it is about each mans choices .

because men choose who and what they will be. " these things must come but WOE TO THE ONE THROUGH WHOM IT COMES" . That is all about a person choice and NOT HIS ! foreknowledge is not really a causing.

You didn't say who this was aimed at.

But if it was me I'll just say that I'm glad we agree.

 

[Chicken Little]

You didn't say who this was aimed at.

But if it was me I'll just say that I'm glad we agree.

Just the original question. ^^ me too

 

[FreeGrace2]

What the heck does that mean?

Let's look at all that followed, since I didn't put any dots after "OK, finally".

"OK, finally, a statement about predestination that means that God causes sin. The thread is that everything is predestinated. Well, since sin occurs, and IF everything has been predestinated, then God most assuredly has caused sin to occur.

There is zero justification for such an idea from Scripture. Because of sin, we can be assurred that not everything has been predestinated.

Because God knows everything that will occur, He doesn't need to predestinate everything."

I've said nothing here that I haven't said a dozen or more times on this thread and at least a dozen more times all over the forum.

It's also something that you might hear from several million Christians and many of the church's best and brightest theologians over the centuries.

Don't act like you've discovered something new and exciting here.

The point was missed, obviously. My comment was about the fact that finally you clearly defined what you meant by predestination, which was that Go causes everything.

 

[nobdysfool]

Let's look at all that followed, since I didn't put any dots after "OK, finally".

"OK, finally, a statement about predestination that means that God causes sin. The thread is that everything is predestinated. Well, since sin occurs, and IF everything has been predestinated, then God most assuredly has caused sin to occur.

There is zero justification for such an idea from Scripture. Because of sin, we can be assurred that not everything has been predestinated.

Because God knows everything that will occur, He doesn't need to predestinate everything."


The point was missed, obviously. My comment was about the fact that finally you clearly defined what you meant by predestination, which was that Go causes everything.

There is a tendency among the nay-sayers of predestination to frame it more like deliberate decrees. It need not be (and isn't) that way. Simply by creating the whole of Creation as He did, processes and events were set into motion which lead to other processes and events, in the paradigm of cause and effect, which, apart from outside intervention (by God) will lead to foreseeable (and foreseen) results. Sin is one of the many processes and events. It is a defect which developed in Creation, which God knew would happen, and had already planned for.

Hard as it may be to accept, Sin serves a purpose in God's Creation, and for that reason, He allowed it to occur and develop. Sin did not originate on Earth, it originated in Heaven, with the rebellion of Lucifer. Lucifer brought it to Earth, and enticed Adam and Eve into the trap of sin. They had a choice to reject it, but they didn't. The Sin of mankind (and of Angels) was not caused by God, in any sort of a "decree" to sin. If there was a decree involved it would be to allow the process to run its course, with key interventions by God (many of which might not appear as interventions) to direct and focus it, which ultimately would culminate in the Judgment of Sin, and of those who commit sin, apart from the Saving work of Christ, which was the intervention in the process whereby God provided an escape from Judgment for those He had determined to save, which is His Right as Sovereign to do.

God is not the author of Sin in the sense that He directly decreed that Sin should exist and by its existence, cause a breakdown of the Perfection of His Creation. He knew the Creation He brought into being would be marred by Sin, and He utilized it to achieve His ultimate goal, of Glorifying Himself in the Judgment of Sin, to demonstrate His Holiness, His Righteousness, His Grace, and His Mercy, as well as His Wrath, and all of His Divine Attributes, to the Praise of His Glory. We tend to define self-glorification as self-centered, and vain, but we must remember, God is totally other than what we are. He is the only self-existent Being in the entire Universe. There is no other like Him. Man is created in the IMAGE (or likeness) of God much like the reflection in a mirror. The reflection can never be the original;, the Actual. It can only be a representation of the original. God can and does Glorify Himself in a way that is not self-centered and vain, but demonstrates His Worthiness to be worshiped loved, and obeyed, to the benefit and blessing of His Creation.

Did God cause everything? Yes, because apart from His Creation, there is nothing. Sin did not cause itself. He knew it would come, and He knew by whom it would come. He allowed it, because it served His Purpose to do so. But to say that God is the author of sin is to say that He Himself is Sinful, which I think no one would claim, and if they did, it would be to their detriment. All of Creation belongs to God, and it is proceeding exactly as He not only intended, but knew that it would. To deny that is to claim that God is not really in control of His Creation, but is continually busy putting out fires, and not really doing a very good job of that.

 

[Marvin Knox]

“What makes something predestined by God to occur is God's actually acting in such a way that virtually “ASSSURES” that those things will happen.”

This is admittedly a very difficult idea to accept – even though it is clearly true. It brings forth much emotion, even in usually level headed people. I personally wrestled with this concept for some time before finally understanding the truth of the predestination by God of all things in His creation.

How could God not be the author of sin if such a bold statement is true? What about the predestination of sin? Evil and sin are part of His creation – are they not?

Those are not easy questions to answer. Simply saying that God’s ways are not exactly like ours doesn’t really help much.

I was reading a short story in a favorite little book the other day. In the first part of the book the author gives a short illustration of an actual event in history that I believe may help explain things a bit.

The short story is right in the first chapters of the book. It’s a story of a man and a woman and a snake. The man and the woman were rather innocent. The snake – not so much. All three of them were placed in a beautiful garden by their creator.

The result of this terrible situation was sin. That resulting sin was virtually assured from the moment that their creator set the scene.

The snake that was placed in the garden happened to be the originator of all evil. The originator of the sin that took place in the garden that day - was the man.

The one altogether innocent party in all of this was their creator- who, although He orchestrated the situation in fine detail, is a perfect being who cannot Himself sin or even tempt to sin. That doesn’t seem like it could be true considering the way He set everyone up.

But I have it on very good authority that it is true.

The little book is titled “Genesis” and the author is my all time favorite.

Give it a read if you find the time. I think it is the perfect illustration to show how the predestination of all things, including evil, really works.


P.S.

There’s a rather well known principle in the systematic study of the Word of God. The principle is called the “principle of first mention.” I doubt that this little story in the very first section of the very first book in God’s Holy Word was placed there by God purely by accident.

By the way – if you’ve never wrestled with and worked through the dilemma posed in this story you really have been whistling through a graveyard.

 

[Marvin Knox]

To say that God predestined sin is to simply say that God planned that sin play an integral controlled part in His plan for this age. That is not the same as saying that God "caused" sin - as in saying that He is the author of sin.

People have tried to blur that pertinent distinction in order to make my position seem like heresy.

I have stressed over and over and over again in this thread that the free will actions of men and angels are completely compatible with predestination. The whole point, and what I have directly said many times, is that men and angels can be the authors of sin and be due the recompense due that sin - even though it was predestined by God to happen.

God does not "cause" men to sin. God does not tempt men to sin even if it appears so at first glance many places in scripture.

The cause of sin in men is self will. Any temptation to sin comes from someone other than God - considered, in at least a general way, to be Satan - the one who originally tried to impose his will over that of God.

In case anyone has trouble reading between the lines - this present age is a tightly controlled, apparently never to be repeated display of God's inherent knowledge of good and evil.

In the activities and results of this age are displayed, for God's glory, His necessary and righteous judgment of everything that falls short of the glory of God along with His mercy, love, and grace.

To display these attributes of God (through His eternal Son or "Word") requires of necessity a juxtaposition of good and evil.

Everything in this creation was created by His Word, for His Word, and in His Word it all consists. He has sent forth His Word to accomplish all that He wants to accomplish in this age. In the end His Word will return all to His Father from which it came for God's glorification through it's display in the ages to come.

According to His Word, God has arranged it so that evil only proceeds from His creation while He Himself remains apart from sin.

It seems to me to be a very wise plan whereby God lets sin and it''s consequences play out to the end - as least in representative form. Then He can display the knowledge of good and evil in the ages to come though His wrath poured out on His Word and also through His glorification of His Word.

It's all in control and always has been. God isn't so unwise so as to just put something with such long reaching consequences into motion and just try to make lemonade out of the resultant lemons as He goes along.

That is not the way of the sovereign Lord of the universe.

I am absolutely amazed at the weak sloppy theology of some. They seem to think and teach that God is looking on from some distant spot as His creation does what they will. They seem to think that God only reaches into this world occasionally to stir the lemons.

If they don't really think that God lives in some parallel universe - they apparently believe that evil men and angels carry the omnipresent God around and use Him for evil without His complete control over how and when they do it.

I can't blame Sunday School children for their shallow theology. But one would think that people who venture to teach about God's ways all over the world through the internet would think things over more thoroughly before opening their mouths.

 

[FreeGrace2]

God is not the author of Sin in the sense that He directly decreed that Sin should exist and by its existence, cause a breakdown of the Perfection of His Creation.

This statement is just another way of saying that Go permitted sin to occur in His creation. So, in that sense, He did decree that sin should exist. Unless He permitted sin to occur, it couldn't have occurred.

Did God cause everything? Yes, because apart from His Creation, there is nothing. Sin did not cause itself.

By the claim that Go causes everything, means that God causes sin. Which is impossible. He permits sin, which is completely different than causing it.

He knew it would come, and He knew by whom it would come.

But the claim that God causes everything, means that God had to cause sin. But this statement only recognizes that God permits sin.

One's theology cannot have it "both ways". God either directly causes sin because He causes "everything", or He permits certain things, without being the cause of it. But one cannot claim both.

He allowed it, because it served His Purpose to do so.

This is true, which refutes the claim that God "causes everything".

Causing and permitting are entirely different things.

But to say that God is the author of sin is to say that He Himself is Sinful, which I think no one would claim, and if they did, it would be to their detriment.

Here's the rub. If God does "cause everything", then He most certainly is the cause of sin. Being the cause of sin is the SAME as being the author of sin. So again there is a contraction in such a theology.

All of Creation belongs to God, and it is proceeding exactly as He not only intended, but knew that it would.

Because of His omniscience. And this doesn't mean He causes everything.

To deny that is to claim that God is not really in control of His Creation, but is continually busy putting out fires, and not really doing a very good job of that.

By the very fact that God has permitted sin to occur proves that He is in control. And He isn't busy putting out fires. One day He will restore all things. But in the meantime, He permits free will to express itself however it will. Without losing any control.

 

[nobdysfool]

This statement is just another way of saying that Go permitted sin to occur in His creation. So, in that sense, He did decree that sin should exist. Unless He permitted sin to occur, it couldn't have occurred.

The very fact that Sin exists is proof that He not only allowed it, He created the conditions that led to it in heaven, and committed by Lucifer,. Sin did not create itself, nor come about in spite of the Will of God in Creating all that is.

By the claim that Go causes everything, means that God causes sin. Which is impossible. He permits sin, which is completely different than causing it.

Don't get hung up on the word "cause", and insist on seeing it as an overt act of God, such as "Let there be Sin!". To be perfectly clear, everything that was, is, or will be is the result of God Creating the World the way He did. It all ultimately traces back to Him. But that does not mean that He is culpable or guilty of Sin, your claims notwithstanding. That's the sticking point that prevents the discussion from moving on To put it another way, claiming that he permitted sin does not let the point off the hook, Permission is passive You want to absolve God from any sort of active decree of sin, but permission is still traceable to Him. And God doesn't need you to defend Him. He can do quite well on His own, in His Way.

But the claim that God causes everything, means that God had to cause sin. But this statement only recognizes that God permits sin.

We're not playing a game of "gotcha", and there is no prize for "defeating the Calvinist". Discuss this, rather than just trying to put every other view down so that yours is the last one standing. That's not even good argument tactics. It's more akin to bullying those who don't accept your pronouncements.

One's theology cannot have it "both ways". God either directly causes sin because He causes "everything", or He permits certain things, without being the cause of it. But one cannot claim both.

No one here is trying to have it both ways. We are reasoning out what most people don't even want to consider. if you are uncomfortable with that, you need not participate.

This is true, which refutes the claim that God "causes everything".

Causing and permitting are entirely different things.

Nothing is refuted,nor is that necessary. Causing is active, permitting is passive. The end result is still the same.

Here's the rub. If God does "cause everything", then He most certainly is the cause of sin. Being the cause of sin is the SAME as being the author of sin. So again there is a contraction in such a theology.

Sez you. Your is not the final work or only correct word on the subject. You are expressing how you choose to see the subject. You have that right. But you do not have the right to try to impose it on others here, or anywhere. And that's how your posts come across.

Because of His omniscience. And this doesn't mean He causes everything.

Name one thing that did not occur as a result of the way God has created things and set them in motion.

By the very fact that God has permitted sin to occur proves that He is in control. And He isn't busy putting out fires. One day He will restore all things. But in the meantime, He permits free will to express itself however it will. Without losing any control.

So it all boils down to free will, ultimately. In essence, that translates to it being all about Man, rather than all about God. I wonder where that notion came from?....

 

[FreeGrace2]

The very fact that Sin exists is proof that He not only allowed it, He created the conditions that led to it in heaven, and committed by Lucifer,. Sin did not create itself, nor come about in spite of the Will of God in Creating all that is.

I never said otherwise. The point is that God didn't cause sin. He allows it.

Don't get hung up on the word "cause", and insist on seeing it as an overt act of God, such as "Let there be Sin!". To be perfectly clear, everything that was, is, or will be is the result of God Creating the World the way He did. It all ultimately traces back to Him. But that does not mean that He is culpable or guilty of Sin, your claims notwithstanding. That's the sticking point that prevents the discussion from moving on To put it another way, claiming that he permitted sin does not let the point off the hook, Permission is passive You want to absolve God from any sort of active decree of sin, but permission is still traceable to Him. And God doesn't need you to defend Him. He can do quite well on His own, in His Way.

I think it's very important to fully understand the word "cause". It does 'cause' great problems for Calvinists. God cannot and does not cause sin.

We're not playing a game of "gotcha", and there is no prize for "defeating the Calvinist". Discuss this, rather than just trying to put every other view down so that yours is the last one standing. That's not even good argument tactics. It's more akin to bullying those who don't accept your pronouncements.

This is what I said: "But the claim that God causes everything, means that God had to cause sin. But this statement only recognizes that God permits sin."

I don't see any "gotcha" here, nor trying to defeat anything. My statement is a clarification of what the claim means.

No one here is trying to have it both ways. We are reasoning out what most people don't even want to consider. if you are uncomfortable with that, you need not participate.

The only thing I'm "uncomfortable" with is unbiblical claims.

Nothing is refuted,nor is that necessary. Causing is active, permitting is passive. The end result is still the same.

The issue isn't the end game, but the means. At least you've acknowledged the very different meanings between cause and permit.

Sez you. Your is not the final work or only correct word on the subject. You are expressing how you choose to see the subject. You have that right. But you do not have the right to try to impose it on others here, or anywhere. And that's how your posts come across.

How is it even possible to "impose" anything on anyone??

Name one thing that did not occur as a result of the way God has created things and set them in motion.

lol If something did not occur, there is no way to name it.

So it all boils down to free will, ultimately. In essence, that translates to it being all about Man, rather than all about God. I wonder where that notion came from?....

Where in the world does the existence of freedom of choice (free will) demand that it becomes "all about man". How silly. The point is that just as God permits sin, God permits man to make free choices. That's all.

How is man's freedom to choose make it "all about man"? I don't see any connection. What I do see is God giving accountability and responsibility to humans.

If man is truly not free to make his own choices and to believe freely, then man CANNOT be held accountable nor is he responsible for any of his actions or beliefs. That is not reasonable.

The fact that the Bible teaches that man IS accountable and responsible proves that man is free to make his own choices. i.e.: free will exists.

An it ain't all about man. It's all about God given freedom to act or think freely.

 

[nobdysfool]

I never said otherwise. The point is that God didn't cause sin. He allows it.

I think your definition of "cause" might be the point where things are not clear.

I think it's very important to fully understand the word "cause". It does 'cause' great problems for Calvinists. God cannot and does not cause sin.

What you're really trying to say is that "God does not sin", which I would wholeheartedly agree with. But the question is, where did sin come from? How did sin come about? Sin could not exist unless God had created the conditions under which it could exist. Would that not be so?

This is what I said: "But the claim that God causes everything, means that God had to cause sin. But this statement only recognizes that God permits sin."

I don't see any "gotcha" here, nor trying to defeat anything. My statement is a clarification of what the claim means.

Which is really jumping to a conclusion.

The only thing I'm "uncomfortable" with is unbiblical claims.

I think there might be a few other things you're uncomfortable with.....

The issue isn't the end game, but the means. At least you've acknowledged the very different meanings between cause and permit.

Cause is active, permit is passive. Not huge difference, really. but, as I said, the end result is the same. So, how did sin come about? If God had nothing to do with it, as you insist, then what happened?

How is it even possible to "impose" anything on anyone??

You really did not just ask that question, did you? Here you are, denying that such a thing could even be done, and then later you'll turn around accuse Calvinists of believing that God "imposes" Salvation on unwilling people. If you don't, your buddies will, and if you don't correct them, it will be assumed that you agree with them.

And yes, it IS possible to impose things on others. Jailhouses and prisons are filled with men and women who are there against their will, having had incarceration IMPOSED on them by the Government.

lol If something did not occur, there is no way to name it.

laugh all you want, you just proved my point.

Where in the world does the existence of freedom of choice (free will) demand that it becomes "all about man". How silly. The point is that just as God permits sin, God permits man to make free choices. That's all.

How is man's freedom to choose make it "all about man"? I don't see any connection. What I do see is God giving accountability and responsibility to humans.

If man is truly not free to make his own choices and to believe freely, then man CANNOT be held accountable nor is he responsible for any of his actions or beliefs. That is not reasonable.

The fact that the Bible teaches that man IS accountable and responsible proves that man is free to make his own choices. i.e.: free will exists.

An it ain't all about man. It's all about God given freedom to act or think freely.

Very often, "free will" is about much more than just man's ability to choose, which no one here denies. My objection is to how it seems to take center stage, even in presenting the Gospel. Yes, man can make choices, but there are limits. Nature, desire, and the condition of one's heart are a few of the limits. Man does not choose contrary to those limitations without outside help. The Gospel is about Jesus Christ, not man's response to it.[/QUOTE]

 

[FreeGrace2]

I think your definition of "cause" might be the point where things are not clear.

Is this to suggest that "cause" means "permit"??

What you're really trying to say is that "God does not sin", which I would wholeheartedly agree with. But the question is, where did sin come from? How did sin come about? Sin could not exist unless God had created the conditions under which it could exist. Would that not be so?

Sure. God permitted freedom among His creatures. True freedom. Sin came from a choice to reject God's rules.

Which is really jumping to a conclusion.

Nope. Just a clarification of my point.

I think there might be a few other things you're uncomfortable with….

Please share what that might be.

Cause is active, permit is passive. Not huge difference, really.

Yeah, very different. Hugely different. If God did cause sin, man would NOT be accountable for them. That's a huge difference.

but, as I said, the end result is the same.

This doesn't matter one bit. If God causes sin, man is NOT responsible for them. It's the means that is so important.

So, how did sin come about?

Freedom of choice.

If God had nothing to do with it, as you insist, then what happened?

Where did I say that God "had nothing to do with it"?? I did say that God didn't cause sin. He permitted sin. What happened was the free choice to rebel against God's rules.

You really did not just ask that question, did you? Here you are, denying that such a thing could even be done, and then later you'll turn around accuse Calvinists of believing that God "imposes" Salvation on unwilling people.

Isn't that (imposing salvation) what the Calvinist view of election is?? Or, is the position that God only elects those He knows will believe anyway? Which is it? And thanks for the clarification, whichever your answer may be.

And yes, it IS possible to impose things on others. Jailhouses and prisons are filled with men and women who are there against their will, having had incarceration IMPOSED on them by the Government.

This is totally out of context. I was accused of imposing a view on others, which I challenge.

laugh all you want, you just proved my point.

Nope.

Very often, "free will" is about much more than just man's ability to choose, which no one here denies. My objection is to how it seems to take center stage, even in presenting the Gospel.

How?

Yes, man can make choices, but there are limits. Nature, desire, and the condition of one's heart are a few of the limits.

irrelevnt to the subject.

Man does not choose contrary to those limitations without outside help. The Gospel is about Jesus Christ, not man's response to it.

Wht limit h been impoe on the gopel?

{note: my keybor jut quit typing the 3 letter over the z, x, c.}

 

[EmSw]

What you're really trying to say is that "God does not sin", which I would wholeheartedly agree with. But the question is, where did sin come from? How did sin come about? Sin could not exist unless God had created the conditions under which it could exist. Would that not be so?

James 1 -
14 But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust.
15 Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death.

Not difficult to understand at all. Sin comes about when are enticed of our own lust. When our lust is conceived, IT GIVES BIRTH TO SIN.

Here again, it has everything to do with our free will. We can choose to be carried away with temptation, or endure and persevere through temptation. If you choose to be carried away or lured by your own lust, your lust seizes you as a prisoner, and this GIVES BIRTH to sin.

Is God the cause of sin? NO! We are the cause when we are carried away with temptation. Does God permit temptation? YES! It is falling into temptation which tries (proves, tests) our faith.

Jesus said this about temptation -

Luke 8:13 -
They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

Those mentioned fall away, or are carried away with temptation, after their faith is tried, become prisoners, and this gives birth to sin. And when sin is accomplished, or finished, it brings forth death.

 

[nobdysfool]

James 1 -
14 But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust.
15 Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death.

Not difficult to understand at all. Sin comes about when are enticed of our own lust. When our lust is conceived, IT GIVES BIRTH TO SIN.

Here again, it has everything to do with our free will. We can choose to be carried away with temptation, or endure and persevere through temptation. If you choose to be carried away or lured by your own lust, your lust seizes you as a prisoner, and this GIVES BIRTH to sin.

Is God the cause of sin? NO! We are the cause when we are carried away with temptation. Does God permit temptation? YES! It is falling into temptation which tries (proves, tests) our faith.

Jesus said this about temptation -

Luke 8:13 -
They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

Those mentioned fall away, or are carried away with temptation, after their faith is tried, become prisoners, and this gives birth to sin. And when sin is accomplished, or finished, it brings forth death.

The question goes back farther than that. Obviously you aren't following he discussion very closely. There are a couple of posters cherry-picking what has been said, to try and confuse the discussion.

 

[EmSw]

The question goes back farther than that. Obviously you aren't following he discussion very closely. There are a couple of posters cherry-picking what has been said, to try and confuse the discussion.

The question was asked by you. I answered your question. You wanted to know how sin came about.

You need to stop assuming what I have done.