Belief in predestination is inevitable even if the Bible didn't say it was true.

[Marvin Knox]

If you believe the Bible is the Word of God - you believe in predestination. It is said very clearly to be true.

Arminians explain it based on simply God's knowing what the choices of His creation will be.

Free Grace types (at least the one here) say that it only has to do with service etc.

Reformed on the other hand say that it applies to all things that happen from the beginning of the age to the end of the age. That would be my position concerning predestination.

Isn't predestination of all things as I view it the only logical position considering what we know about God from His Word?

Regardless if any of us think it fair of God or not to predestinate - I believe that it is inescapable logic that all things are predestinated.

All we are talking about in this thread is whether or not predestination is true. Whether anyone likes it or not isn't part of the discussion.

****NOTE: If you try to head the thread to talking about the fairness of God if it is true - or insult those who believe that it is true - I intend to report you to the moderators immediately for not staying on topic. Your post will be removed if I can manage it.

 

[Brother Chris]

Yes I agree. The doctrine of election and predestination is not "Calvinism" but it is what the bible teaches. The truth is, no one is predestined for hell. Everyone is on their way to hell as soon as they arrive in the world. Why? We are born in sin. All mankind has sinned and rebelled against God. So what do the deserve? Wrath and punishment. So if God, for His own glory, to demonstrate the riches of His grace (undeserved favor), chooses to save a group of people out of all human kind, God has done nothing wrong. Those whom He saves receive forgiveness and eternal life, which they do not deserve. The rest of mankind receive the wrath and punishment that they deserve. So there is no "God isn't fair." No one deserves to be saved. If God were to be fair to everyone, then everyone would receive what they deserve: hell and punishment. Election and predestination is supposed to humble us and makes us grateful before a holy God, for choosing us and having mercy and grace on us. God is under no obligation to save anyone. He does so out of pure mercy and grace.

 

[bling]

We are not talking about the truth of predestination, but how predestination is defined.

All humans that accept God’s charity are predestined to go to heaven.

Everyone that accepts God’s invitation and goes to the party get to party with God.

 

[Marvin Knox]

Yes I agree. The doctrine of election and predestination is not "Calvinism" but it is what the bible teaches. The truth is, no one is predestined for hell. Everyone is on their way to hell as soon as they arrive in the world. Why? We are born in sin. All mankind has sinned and rebelled against God. So what do the deserve? Wrath and punishment. So if God, for His own glory, to demonstrate the riches of His grace (undeserved favor), chooses to save a group of people out of all human kind, God has done nothing wrong. Those whom He saves receive forgiveness and eternal life, which they do not deserve. The rest of mankind receive the wrath and punishment that they deserve. So there is no "God isn't fair." No one deserves to be saved. If God were to be fair to everyone, then everyone would receive what they deserve: hell and punishment. Election and predestination is supposed to humble us and makes us grateful before a holy God, for choosing us and having mercy and grace on us. God is under no obligation to save anyone. He does so out of pure mercy and grace.

Here we have demonstrated why so very many try so hard to reject predestination. It is often linked with election as it is here.

Now election, no matter how you define it, would be one of the things that are predestined. For that matter so would the last raindrop that fell on the earth.

But this thread is not about the subject of election, hell, heaven, rain, fairness, or how many hairs are on my head.

The subject is predestination. The idea is to end up agreeing that all things are predestinated by God. From that point we can calmly discuss what those things are.

We are not talking about the truth of predestination, but how predestination is defined.

All humans that accept God’s charity are predestined to go to heaven.

Everyone that accepts God’s invitation and goes to the party get to party with God.

The definition of predestination is quite simple. It doesn't depend on how one wants to define it. It simply means that the destiny of all things that have happened, are happening, or will happen in the future are determined even before they happen.

Much the same problem as above is demonstrated in this post.

This thread may well end up serving as proof that almost everyone's view of soteriolgy has so clouded their minds that they cannot discuss anything else without it's being brought to bear sooner or later.

The reason this predestination discussion was placed in the soteriolgy section is so that it can serve as a sort of "segway" into calm discussions of other topics.

I have no problem with those things being discussed later. But it seems that this forum is pretty much populated with people with an axe to grind. They are choosing to grind it sooner than later.

Let's see if we can stay on task please.

 

[bling]

The definition of predestination is quite simple. It doesn't depend on how one wants to define it. It simply means that the destiny of all things that have happened, are happening, or will happen in the future are determined even before they happen.

No that is your definition.

There are a limited number of things are “distant to happen”, such as: Those that accept God’s Love will go to heaven and those that refuse to accept God’s Love will not go to heaven are predestined to happen. God can have foreknowledge of everyone that did decide (of their own free will) in their future to accept God’s Love.

 

[Marvin Knox]

I'll see how long I'm able to talk with you. As many have pointed out in the past - some of your posts don't seem to make sense.

No that is your definition.

There are a limited number of things are “distant to happen”, such as: Those that accept God’s Love will go to heaven and those that refuse to accept God’s Love will not go to heaven are predestined to happen. God can have foreknowledge of everyone that did decide (of their own free will) in their future to accept God’s Love.

No - to the contrary - mine is the simple definition of what the predestination of all things means - the predestination of all things is the topic of this thread.

You are not defining predestination. You are making a presentation of your idea that only some things are predestined.

And - we are not talking here about "free will" and how it might play into the concept of predestination. That's another thread entirely.

But since you brought it up - is there any chance that those whom God has had "foreknowledge" of concerning the fact that they will accept Christ will fail to accept Christ when the time comes?

Is there any chance that those whom God has had "foreknowledge" of concerning the fact that they will not accept Christ will actually accept Christ when the time comes?

 

[tansy]

If you believe the Bible is the Word of God - you believe in predestination. It is said very clearly to be true.

Arminians explain it based on simply God's knowing what the choices of His creation will be.

Free Grace types (at least the one here) say that it only has to do with service etc.

Reformed on the other hand say that it applies to all things that happen from the beginning of the age to the end of the age. That would be my position concerning predestination.

Isn't predestination of all things as I view it the only logical position considering what we know about God from His Word?

Regardless if any of us think it fair of God or not to predestinate - I believe that it is inescapable logic that all things are predestinated.

All we are talking about in this thread is whether or not predestination is true. Whether anyone likes it or not isn't part of the discussion.

****NOTE: If you try to head the thread to talking about the fairness of God if it is true - or insult those who believe that it is true - I intend to report you to the moderators immediately for not staying on topic. Your post will be removed if I can manage it.

Not quite sure what you're asking/saying. Yes, it would seem predestination is true. What might differ is how that is interpreted.

 

[Marvin Knox]

Not quite sure what you're asking/saying. Yes, it would seem predestination is true. What might differ is how that is interpreted.

The idea that all things that happen from the beginning of the age to the end of the age are predestined is a pretty straight forward proposition.

All things means all things.

If we rush too early into the weeds we will likely find ourselves arguing about free will, fairness, John Calvin and God only know what else. We can see people's propensity for arguing the smaller points first just from the first couple of posts.

What I would ideally like to do is have everyone agree that everything that happens has been predestined by God. I believe that is easily shown and undeniable.

I certainly agree with you that "it would seem predestination is true".

After all agree on that fact - we can have at least that common ground from which to talk about anything people talk about here ranging from the problem of the existence of evil in general to election and free will. But getting people to approach all things in order might well be impossible.

 

[tansy]

The idea that all things that happen from the beginning of the age to the end of the age are predestined is a pretty straight forward proposition.

All things means all things.

If we rush too early into the weeds we will likely find ourselves arguing about free will, fairness, John Calvin and God only know what else. We can see people's propensity for arguing the smaller points first just from the first couple of posts.

What I would ideally like to do is have everyone agree that everything that happens has been predestined by God. I believe that is easily shown and undeniable.

I certainly agree with you that "it would seem predestination is true".

After all agree on that fact - we can have at least that common ground from which to talk about anything people talk about here ranging from the problem of the existence of evil in general to election and free will. But getting people to approach all things in order might well be impossible.

Ok. Well, I have a theory about how predestination might work. But not sure if I should express my opinion yet? (And it isonly myopinion)

 

[Marvin Knox]

Ok. Well, I have a theory about how predestination might work. But not sure if I should express my opinion yet? (And it isonly myopinion)

Go for it.

 

[tansy]

Go for it.

Have got to rush off in a minute so not sure how well I can put over my thoughts.
Firstly, I think God in the beginning started everything off, but rather like those huge pictures made of dominoes, which when you push the first one they all fall into place to produce the picture, God knows exactly how everything will fall, but being God, He also knows all the permutations of what will happen when something 'goes wrong' as it were.
I don't think God arbitrarily chooses who will be saved (although there is at least one passage in the Bible which might imply that), but rather that anyone who in effect will be willing to go 'God's way' (sorry not well put...as I say am in a tearing rush) is predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ - rather like when you book a plane ticket weeks or months in advance, then you are predestined to go to Spain or wherever you've booked it for.
Hope that's not too confusing . And I may not be able to get online for a couple of days as am having to do loads of babysitting and stuff and won't have much access to a computer.

 

[bling]

No - to the contrary - mine is the simple definition of what the predestination of all things means - the predestination of all things is the topic of this thread.

Are you assuming: since God predestines something He has to predestine everything?

Do you see “predestine” to be the same as foreordained?

Why could the concept of: “God predestining to save some people” not mean: “God predestined to save only those whom of their own free will humbly accepted His Charity”?

Does the fact that in scripture some things are talked about as being “predestined” without expressing giving the explanation of everything being predestined suggest that everything is not predestined?

You are not defining predestination. You are making a presentation of your idea that only some things are predestined.

I have no problem defining “predestine” as being foreordained, to the point sometime in Man’s future all that God foreordained will happen exactly the way he foreordained it to happen.

There are things that “will happen” (“will happen” as far as man is concerned, but has happened as far as God is concerned) which are foreknown by God (as far as man is concerned) that were not predestined (or foreordained) by God.

And - we are not talking here about "free will" and how it might play into the concept of predestination. That's another thread entirely.

When you talk about God predestining or foreordaining everything you automatically remove man’s free will.

But since you brought it up - is there any chance that those whom God has had "foreknowledge" of concerning the fact that they will accept Christ will fail to accept Christ when the time comes?

Is there any chance that those whom God has had "foreknowledge" of concerning the fact that they will not accept Christ will actually accept Christ when the time comes?

God’s foreknowledge would be the result of God knowing what free will choices man did make in man’s future, so as far as God is concerned it is all history and history cannot be changed. The choices we will make in our future have already been made as far as God is concerned. We either of our own free will choice did or did not accept Christ and that cannot change.

Humans just cannot change the free will choices they made in their future any more than they can change their past free will choices. There is no “future” or “past” as far as God is concerned.

 

[Marvin Knox]

Are you assuming: since God predestines something He has to predestine everything?

Do you see “predestine” to be the same as foreordained?

Yes and yes.

Predestine and foreordain mean basically the same thing as far as this discussion is concerned. On the other hand, foreknowledge and foreordain do not mean the same thing.

The decree of God is the command of God that what He knows can happen will happen.

Ordaining means the laying out of how exactly what God decrees will fall out in history.

God knows every possibility as we see in scripture. He even knows things that could never even happen with the current condition of His creation.

For example - we see that Sodom would repent if Christ were to have displayed Himself in that city. He never could have, of course, without a drastic difference in the things that God has carried out in our current history.

Without His prior choice to both start and carry through prior things in a certain way - current things could never happen. In this case the history He chose to accomplish before His preaching dictated that only Jerusalem would actually have the chance to hear His preaching.

Why could the concept of: “God predestining to save some people” not mean: “God predestined to save only those whom of their own free will humbly accepted His Charity”?

It could and it does.

Only people who misrepresent Reformed teaching say that we believe otherwise.

You have been around here long enough to know that about Reformed teaching. I do believe that your (and many others) continuing to charge Reformed of not believing that people can make choices is evidence that many do not really want to discuss in a "Berean" manner.

Does the fact that in scripture some things are talked about as being “predestined” without expressing giving the explanation of everything being predestined suggest that everything is not predestined?

No.

Everything is so expressed.

He clearly is said to know everything. That in itself means that everything that happens was predestined to happen.

He clearly says that He carries everything out through His Word. That in itself means that everything is so ordained or carried to completion by Him and that He isn't simply standing by and watching.

There are things that “will happen” (“will happen” as far as man is concerned, but has happened as far as God is concerned) which are foreknown by God (as far as man is concerned) that were not predestined (or foreordained) by God.

Not so.

When you talk about God predestining or foreordaining everything you automatically remove man’s free will.

That is not so.

That's the charge that non Reformed usually make. Reformed do not believe that is so.

The Bible teaches that man has a will and that he uses it. He is responsible for the consequences of how he uses it.

Reformed do believe that the will of fallen man is influenced to a great degree by Satan (as scripture clearly says).

Original man was only influenced through external temptation. Fallen man has his will held captive to do the will of Satan. That difference is crystal clear in the Word.

There is no “future” or “past” as far as God is concerned.

Let's not go beyond what is written.

 

[Marvin Knox]

There are several approaches to arriving at the fact that all things that happen are predestined to happen.

Even before starting a conversation about predestination we need to agree that God knows everything and that He knew sometime before anything was spoken into existence. He knows and has known everything both possible and actual.

A fairly well known debater on these threads recently dodged predestination by boldly declaring that God only knows things that actually take place. According to this person, God does not know “possibilities”.

One hardly knows where to begin in scripture to show that this simply is not so.

If we cannot first agree that God’s knowledge is infinite we cannot proceed with a discussion of predestination based on scripture.

The first (and simplest) idea supporting predestination has to do with the knowledge of everything that will happen. If God is infallible in His knowledge – anything that He knows will happen is predestinated to happen.

Before God did anything “outside of Himself” for want of another way to express these things – He knew what was going to happen. Therefore those things that were going to happen had a fixed destiny before they even came into existence.

The only question is who or what predestinated them to take place. Is there some abstract “force” outside of God such as “fate” or “chance” that God cannot overcome even if He wanted to? Or is there an infinite God only who predestinates all things?

God has not left that up for debate. He says clearly that there are no other Gods “before” (or alongside) Him. He and He alone is the great “I AM”. Not only that but whenever He uses a term such as predestine He says clearly that it is He who predestines and not some other God or force.

Clearly the things that were predestined before the foundation of the world to happen in time – were predestined by God to so happen.

He decreed them to happen and He also will see them through to completion according to His decrees. The “vehicle” of God’s decrees and providential ordination is His Word.

“For My thoughts are not your thoughts,
Nor are your ways My ways,” declares the Lord.
“For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
So are My ways higher than your ways
And My thoughts than your thoughts.
“For as the rain and the snow come down from heaven,
And do not return there without watering the earth
And making it bear and sprout,
And furnishing seed to the sower and bread to the eater;
So will My word be which goes forth from My mouth;
It will not return to Me empty,
Without accomplishing what I desire,
And without succeeding in the matter for which I sent it." Isaiah 55:8-11

Speaking of this Word of God, God says, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.” John 1:1-3

And, “For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.” Colossians 1:16-17

And, “In Him we live and move and have our being” Acts17:28

The God of the Bible is not a God who observes things happening. He is a God who is intimately involved with their coming to past.

I know that brings many questions to mind about the existence of good and evil. I doubt that anyone can come up with a question for God along those lines that I have not asked him already. But first things first.

I don’t mean to be insulting with these basics in any way. But before discussing predestination we have to start with the most basic of concepts from scripture.

There are several approaches to show that God has predestined all things that happen. But you can’t do Bible 102 until you have done Bible 101 – right?

I’ve always maintained that people who hold theologies other than those that teach the absolute sovereignty of God have to almost invent another God altogether different from the omniscient, omnipresent God of scripture.

We can eliminate such ideas right away by agreeing to some really basic Biblical concepts first. If we can't we might as well save our energy.

After making sure that our comments incorporate these basics - we will find ourselves of necessity believing that God has predestinated all things that happen.

After agreeing to that inescapable conclusion - we will all be better equipped to discuss things having to do with salvation.

It has appeared to me that some here in the forum are not so equipped. No offense meant. All are not teachers or at least all should not become teachers. Why anyone would want to voice opinions here on soteriology when they have apparently skipped over the basics is beyond me.

 

[bling]

Yes and yes.

Why does everything have to be predestined by God and not have God just have foreknowledge of some things that happened without predestining it to happen?

The decree of God is the command of God that what He knows can happen will happen.

The difference being there can be a lot of things that can happen which God would know about, but only one thing did happen (in the future) and that is what God knows will/has happen.

Ordaining means the laying out of how exactly what God decrees will fall out in history.

God knows every possibility as we see in scripture. He even knows things that could never even happen with the current condition of His creation.

For example - we see that Sodom would repent if Christ were to have displayed Himself in that city. He never could have, of course, without a drastic difference in the things that God has carried out in our current history.

Without His prior choice to both start and carry through prior things in a certain way - current things could never happen. In this case the history He chose to accomplish before His preaching dictated that only Jerusalem would actually have the chance to hear His preaching.

How do you know God did not foreordain those things that need to happen and have only foreknowledge of the other things (like individual’s free will choices) that did happen in man’s future.

It could and it does.

Only people who misrepresent Reformed teaching say that we believe otherwise.

You have been around here long enough to know that about Reformed teaching. I do believe that your (and many others) continuing to charge Reformed of not believing that people can make choices is evidence that many do not really want to discuss in a "Berean" manner.

If the person is, of their own free will, choosing to humbly accept God’s charity, could that same person have chosen, of their own free will, not to accept God’s charity? God at the beginning of time could know the choice the person made, but it is not God predestinating them to make the choice either way?

No.

Everything is so expressed.

No, something are shown to be man’s choice like the amount of a free will offering.

He clearly is said to know everything. That in itself means that everything that happens was predestined to happen.

No it does not. God could have prefect knowledge of every free will choice man makes (historically) and not as a result of God predestinating those choices.

He clearly says that He carries everything out through His Word. That in itself means that everything is so ordained or carried to completion by Him and that He isn't simply standing by and watching.

I am way away from even suggesting “God is simply standing by and watching” (that is a misunderstanding on your part), since God is heavily involved in every mature adult individual’s life 24/7 to provide the very best opportunities for them to fulfill their earthly objective.

Not so.

That is not so.

That's the charge that non Reformed usually make. Reformed do not believe that is so.

The Bible teaches that man has a will and that he uses it. He is responsible for the consequences of how he uses it.

Reformed do believe that the will of fallen man is influenced to a great degree by Satan (as scripture clearly says).

Original man was only influenced through external temptation. Fallen man has his will held captive to do the will of Satan. That difference is crystal clear in the Word.

I would say: “Man is the slave of whom he obeys”. Humans choose to obey satan, because they personally do not have the power (the indwelling Holy Spirit and God’s Love) to be obedient to God. That does not mean man cannot for purely selfish reasons give up his fighting against God and thus surrender to God while he is still a soldier of satan. By his wimping out of the fight man is allow God to shower man with pure charity.

You make it sound like man becomes a “robot” of satan (held captive), yet you also said “influenced to a great degree by Satan” which does not convey the idea of being controlled beyond man’s ability to do anything. While man is a servant (slave) of satan and highly influenced by satan man can (like the prodigal son did) come to his senses enough to just turn for undeserving help from God.

Let's not go beyond what is written.

Does omnipresence also include time that is now being shown as being relative even for man?

 

[bling]

There are several approaches to arriving at the fact that all things that happen are predestined to happen.

Even before starting a conversation about predestination we need to agree that God knows everything and that He knew sometime before anything was spoken into existence. He knows and has known everything both possible and actual.

OK, I can work with this accepted assumption.

A fairly well known debater on these threads recently dodged predestination by boldly declaring that God only knows things that actually take place. According to this person, God does not know “possibilities”.

That is hard to believe, that God would not know the possible alternatives, maybe you did not understand his comments?

One hardly knows where to begin in scripture to show that this simply is not so.

If we cannot first agree that God’s knowledge is infinite we cannot proceed with a discussion of predestination based on scripture.

Could God know what a God given truly free will never to ever exist “being” would do and not just know what all this being could do?

The first (and simplest) idea supporting predestination has to do with the knowledge of everything that will happen. If God is infallible in His knowledge – anything that He knows will happen is predestinated to happen.

Again, you talk about something seemingly happening in God’s future (placing God only in the present) with “will happen”. Why does God’s omnipresent not include God coexisting in the future so it never will happen for God, but everything has happened for God?

Before God did anything “outside of Himself” for want of another way to express these things – He knew what was going to happen. Therefore those things that were going to happen had a fixed destiny before they even came into existence.

God of the infinite future (his omnipresence in the future) does not know anything that “will happen”, since everything has happened. By talking about stuff that “is going to happen” for God, you are forcing God to be held in the present by His creation of “time”.

What is “fixed” are the human free will choices that were made in the future.

The only question is who or what predestinated them to take place. Is there some abstract “force” outside of God such as “fate” or “chance” that God cannot overcome even if He wanted to? Or is there an infinite God only who predestinates all things?

I do not believe in “fate or chance”, but there is another option besides defaulting everything to God’s predestination. God can “override” anything, but God would allow adult humans to make very limited free will choices, which would allow some humans to become like God Himself in that they would have Godly type Love. God does not have to give humans this choice, but without being able to make this choice humans could not obtain Godly type Love.

God has not left that up for debate. He says clearly that there are no other Gods “before” (or alongside) Him. He and He alone is the great “I AM”. Not only that but whenever He uses a term such as predestine He says clearly that it is He who predestines and not some other God or force.

OK, but that does not mean God’s power is limited to the point of not allowing humans to make the free will choices they need to obtain Godly type Love.

Clearly the things that were predestined before the foundation of the world to happen in time – were predestined by God to so happen.

He decreed them to happen and He also will see them through to completion according to His decrees. The “vehicle” of God’s decrees and providential ordination is His Word.

“For My thoughts are not your thoughts,
Nor are your ways My ways,” declares the Lord.
“For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
So are My ways higher than your ways
And My thoughts than your thoughts.
“For as the rain and the snow come down from heaven,
And do not return there without watering the earth
And making it bear and sprout,
And furnishing seed to the sower and bread to the eater;
So will My word be which goes forth from My mouth;
It will not return to Me empty,
Without accomplishing what I desire,
And without succeeding in the matter for which I sent it." Isaiah 55:8-11

Speaking of this Word of God, God says, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.” John 1:1-3

In the context that is referring to everything in Genesis 1 which are tangible things and is not referring to intangible things like man’s free will choice to accept or reject God’s charity.

And, “For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.” Colossians 1:16-17

And, “In Him we live and move and have our being” Acts17:28

The God of the Bible is not a God who observes things happening. He is a God who is intimately involved with their coming to past

.
God foreordains most everything to happen including the allowing of mature adult humans the ability to make the free will choice to humbly accept or reject His charity, but that does not mean God infringes on man’s free will to make that choice.

I know that brings many questions to mind about the existence of good and evil. I doubt that anyone can come up with a question for God along those lines that I have not asked him already. But first things first.

I don’t mean to be insulting with these basics in any way. But before discussing predestination we have to start with the most basic of concepts from scripture.

There are several approaches to show that God has predestined all things that happen. But you can’t do Bible 102 until you have done Bible 101 – right?

I’ve always maintained that people who hold theologies other than those that teach the absolute sovereignty of God have to almost invent another God altogether different from the omniscient, omnipresent God of scripture.

My understanding of an omnipresent God includes existing in man’s past, present and future so for Him there is no past or future, but in His communication with man will speak of the past and future for man’s sake of understanding.

 

[FreeGrace2]

If you believe the Bible is the Word of God - you believe in predestination. It is said very clearly to be true.

The challenge is to understand what it means. Seems most don't.

Arminians explain it based on simply God's knowing what the choices of His creation will be.

Which is why I'm not one of them either.

Free Grace types (at least the one here) say that it only has to do with service etc.

No, I didn't say that. I go straight to Scripture to understand what predestination is about.

Rom 8:29 - For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;

One thing is very clear: this verse isn't about anyone being predestined to be saved. Not even close to that.

This verse informs us that believers are predestined to "become conformed to the image of His Son". Obviously.

And it means exactly what it says. Our destiny is to become Christ-like. Some will reach that in their life on earth, but many will not achieve that until eternity.

1 Jn 3:2 - Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not appeared as yet what we will be. We know that when He appears, we will be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is.

The phrase "when He appears" refers to His Second Coming. by that time, all of us will have been glorified with resurrection bodies. And at that time, all of us will be "like Him". We will be conformed to the image of Him. No question.

Reformed on the other hand say that it applies to all things that happen from the beginning of the age to the end of the age. That would be my position concerning predestination.

What verse(s) teach that?

Isn't predestination of all things as I view it the only logical position considering what we know about God from His Word?

What verse(s) say that God predestines "all things"?

Regardless if any of us think it fair of God or not to predestinate - I believe that it is inescapable logic that all things are predestinated.

Logic?? What about God's Word? Where is that taught?

All we are talking about in this thread is whether or not predestination is true. Whether anyone likes it or not isn't part of the discussion.

I certainly disagree with the claim that God has predestined all things.

Rom 8:29 is about believers being predestined to be conformed to the image of God's Son, not "all things" being predestined.

 

[FreeGrace2]

The definition of predestination is quite simple. It doesn't depend on how one wants to define it. It simply means that the destiny of all things that have happened, are happening, or will happen in the future are determined even before they happen.

Is there any verse(s) that says this?

 

[FreeGrace2]

You are not defining predestination. You are making a presentation of your idea that only some things are predestined.

You've defined it but without any Scripture to support your definition. I have given a clear verse that speaks directly to predestination; to be conformed to the image of God's Son. That is what predestination is about.

And - we are not talking here about "free will" and how it might play into the concept of predestination. That's another thread entirely.

But since you brought it up - is there any chance that those whom God has had "foreknowledge" of concerning the fact that they will accept Christ will fail to accept Christ when the time comes?

I think this hijacks your own thread.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Not quite sure what you're asking/saying. Yes, it would seem predestination is true. What might differ is how that is interpreted.

Bingo!!