Question for my Democratic friends

FireDragon76

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Britain was appointed as an administrator over Palestine after the Otterman Empire was defeated in WW1 by the League of Nations and later by the UNited Nations. The Brits did not act alone or had the authority.

The Brits were part of a coalition of nations including France, Russia, US, Itality, Japan and the Anzacz at war with the Otterman Empire, Germany and Austria-Hungary. The Otterman Empire was trying to expand itself by taking nations around it including the Baulkens and taking the Byzantine Empire which included Palestine and much of the Middle East.

So it was just a spat with Britain but the Allied forces stopping a tyrannical Empire trying to take over the region and commiting human rights violations.

After the war ended we had a situation where Palestine was in conflict with who had rights over what parts of the area and so the Brits and other nations had to sort this out.

This isn't exactly accurate. The British invited mass Jewish settlement with the Balfour Declaration as colonists. The Jews that came were largely Ashkenazic, not Mizrahic Jews indigenous to the region.

It was the Ottermans who had taken the land of Palestine not the Brits and caused the conflict.

It had been in possession of the Ottoman's for centuries before the British.

But even before this there was conflicts over land rights due to other powers like the Egyptians, Persian Empire, Alexander the Great, the Hasmoneans, the Roman Empire, several Muslim caliphates, and the crusaders. So Britain is just a recent newcomer to an ancient problem. If anything the League of Nations under British mandate was trying to sort the mess out as others are trying to do today. The problem was already created.

Its a lot different as its not just a church and it was part of taking an entire city and nation. Evenso as mentioned the Jews made a compromise and allowed the Muslims access while the Muslims denied the Jews access. If it was the other way around and the Jews took their MOssque I know there would have been hell to pay which shows they are not willing to compromise.

But neither did any State exist including a Palestinian one. In fact there has never been a Palestinian State. There has been a checkered history and the Jews have been exiled and returned several times. Judea was a seperate State to Isreal and Isreal has always existed and history supports this.

The Jews being expelled in the 7th century is because the Muslims took Isreal and expelled them or made life so hard many left. Which shows the rightful people are the Jews

Muslims did not expel Jews in the 7th century to any significant degree. Romans expelled Jews in the 2nd century, after a series of revolts. A few remained, but most Jews left and went to places like Syria or other parts of the Middle East (and actually the Druze in Israel are the closest descendents to the Jews of Roman Judea, not Ashkenazic Jews from Germany, Poland, or Ukraine).

. They were displaced around the world and suffered at the hands of inhuman nations who treated them badly. Being displaced many came back hoome over the 20th century.

Gypsies and Kurds have been badly mistreated too, and are also stateless peoples. Perhaps we should carve up New Jersey or Mumbai to give them a homeland? How is that not unjust?
 
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stevevw

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So many Democratic leading groups? You have named two, and two does not constitute many. I am extremely skeptical that any Democratic Congress members actually support Hamas - I think you guys are making this up.
Also the World Workers Party. I think thats enough isn't it. Add to this the many University students who are predominately on the Left there are quite a few that seem to support Hamas on ideological grounds.

Before the latest attacks most Democrates sided with the Palestinians which I would assume also included Hamas as their elected body. Back then Hamas were still commiting terror and inhumane acts.

They don't seem to be able to seperate their ideological beliefs with the terror that Hamas is engaging in like its somehow justified. This seems to relate to the idea that many on the Left believe that some form of punitive action even violence is ok when it comes to supporting the percieved oppression on minorities.
 
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essentialsaltes

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The Jews being expelled in the 7th century is because the Muslims took Isreal and expelled them or made life so hard many left. Which shows the rightful people are the Jews.
The Arabs being expelled in the 20th and 21st centuries is because the Jews took Palestine and expelled them or made life so hard many left. Which shows the rightful people are the Arabs.


Strange how Muhammed just happened to journey from the exact same spot that the Jewish Temple happens to be situations for 1,000's of years.

Where else would you have a chat with Jesus, Moses and Abraham?
 
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expos4ever

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Also the World Workers Party. I think thats enough isn't it.
Not really. Maybe for these 3 groups, there are are 100s of Democratic organizations that condemn Hamas. By analogy, there are surely a small number of wingnut right wing groups out there who identify as Republicans - would it be fair to suggest they represent Republicans in general? Of course not.
Add to this the many University students who are predominately on the Left there are quite a few that seem to support Hamas on ideological grounds.
Again, how do you not know that these students are not a small minority of those who would identify as Democrats?
Before the latest attacks most Democrates sided with the Palestinians which I would assume also included Hamas as their elected body.
How do you know most Democrats sided with the Palestinians? Where are the numbers? But even if you are right, it is a wild assumption to presume that such support translates into support for Hamas.
 
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Bradskii

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stevevw

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stevevw

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Not really. Maybe for these 3 groups, there are are 100s of Democratic organizations that condemn Hamas. By analogy, there are surely a small number of wingnut right wing groups out there who identify as Republicans - would it be fair to suggest they represent Republicans in general? Of course not.
I agree its the extreme sectors that support violence and both sides are guilty of this. But ideologically I think the Right is more willing to engage in discussion and seek to find the truth and facts of the situation than the Left. We see this in Universities and how the Left deplatforms and shuts down opposing views.

In academia and our Institutions which promotes the victim and oppressor mentality. This will inevitably lead to the idea of punitive and violent uprisings because victims will fight back when percieved as being oppressed of their rights. This influences the narrative making it about Isreal being an occupying power rather than having the right to exist in their own territory.

“Decolonization” is one of those strands of illiberal leftism. It has a model of the world in which conflicts are analyzed as a struggle pitting settler-colonist-Europeans, who are evil, against native/indigenous/BIPOC people.
Again, how do you not know that these students are not a small minority of those who would identify as Democrats?
Yes its often the more radical groups that push this stuff but they have great influence and often influence the narrative of whats happening. This is true of any extreme ideas as they are often the loudest and cause the most disruption.

It is well known that Universities have been the domain of Leftist ideology for years. What we see now is the culmination of ideology in academia especially the Humanities.

There has been a massive increase is DEI policies throughout ciricculum and our institutions in recent years which are based on the same ideology of victim and oppressor. Thats why there has been an increase in Socialism and Marxism and even a growing support for communism.


Meanwhile, campus groups at Harvard, Yale, George Washington University, New York University and elsewhere have come under fire for responding to Hamas’ attack by refusing to condemn the killing of Israelis. The national leadership of Students for Justice in Palestine celebrated the attack as a “historic win for the Palestinian resistance.”


How do you know most Democrats sided with the Palestinians? Where are the numbers? But even if you are right, it is a wild assumption to presume that such support translates into support for Hamas.
A survey earlier this year showed that most democrates supported Hamas up until this recent attack, The Hamas atrtack has cause them to reconsider how far they can take the logic of their ideology in supporting minorities rights.

in 2013, Gallup found that Americans sympathized with Israelis over Palestinians 64 percent to 12 percent, but earlier this year, that gap was down to 54 percent to 31 percent.

Interestingly, Gallup found that most of that shift was due to changing attitudes among Democrats and independents. For example, Democrats went from sympathizing with Israelis over Palestinians 55 percent to 19 percent in 2013 to sympathizing with Palestinians over Israelis 49 percent to 38 percent earlier in 2023. Meanwhile, Republicans remained steadfast in their support of Israelis — 78 percent sympathized with them in 2013, and 78 percent sympathized with them 10 years later.

The Left basically supported Hamas in the past because they percieved it represented a minority enthnic group who was being oppressed by another more dominant group in the Isreali's. But now that Hamas have crossed the line and committed obvious human rights breaches it is right to condemn this.


Its Leftist ideology to support the victims against oppressors. Most Western nations are seen as Colonizers, and Capitalists. Leftist policies primarily support anti capitalism and anti traditional Western ideas of democracy and Governance.

The idea of some resistence and even violence seemed to be acceptable before this happened which in reality has led to the Hamas crossing the line. They didn't suddenly decide to get radical. They just acted in a bigger way. There are many examples showing before the recent attack that there has been a history of human rights breaches by these political and religious groups coming to power on the back of western support from both sides.
 
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FireDragon76

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I agree its the extreme sectors that support violence and both sides are guilty of this. But ideologically I think the Right is more willing to engage in discussion and seek to find the truth and facts of the situation than the Left. We see this in Universities and how the Left deplatforms and shuts down opposing views.

In academia and our Institutions which promotes the victim and oppressor mentality. This will inevitably lead to the idea of punitive and violent uprisings because victims will fight back when percieved as being oppressed of their rights.

You say that like that's a bad thing. Heaven forbid that oppressed people be so delusional they think they have rights! Maybe Rosa Parks should have just sat in the back of the bus, and Martin Luther King should have just stuck to preaching about turning the other cheek?

“Decolonization” is one of those strands of illiberal leftism. It has a model of the world in which conflicts are analyzed as a struggle pitting settler-colonist-Europeans, who are evil, against native/indigenous/BIPOC people.

It's pretty obvious to most people that colonialism is usually associated with oppression and injustice. It's not exactly something you have to be an Ivy League professor to figure out.

It is well known that Universities have been the domain of Leftist ideology for years. What we see now is the culmination of ideology in academia especially the Humanities.

Maybe that's because the Right has a history of anti-intellectualism, particularly in attacks on the humanities and social sciences.
 
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Bradskii

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Yes as I mentioned in another thread politics has become more polarized and both sides are engaging in violence.
Well, you actually blamed the left for it in this thread.
 
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stevevw

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You say that like that's a bad thing. Heaven forbid that oppressed people be so delusional they think they have rights! Maybe Rosa Parks should have just sat in the back of the bus, and Martin Luther King should have just stuck to preaching about turning the other cheek?
Its only natural that victims will eventually fight back and stand up for themselves. It more a matter of how the situation of the denial of rights is percieved which will then determine how people fight back and stand up.

As with Rosa Parks and the Civil Rights movement such as under Dr King they supported non-violence as opposed to some of the more radical ideas of groups like the Black Panthers which seems to be the ideological basis for todays Rights based movements.

Thats because the Civil Rights movement under Dr King was about individual rights and they did not see the US itself as oppressive but rather they only wanted the same rights as everyone else under US freedoms. They did not denegrate the very system that allowed them the rights to protest.

Whereas todays ideology sees the US and other Western nations as oppressive and the enermy and not only want their rights but want to destroy the enermy thus taking a more antagonistic view which leads to violence.
It's pretty obvious to most people that colonialism is usually associated with oppression and injustice. It's not exactly something you have to be an Ivy League professor to figure out.
Thats the problem, that the narrative has been created that takes this antagonistic view that everything the West done was about oppression. This cannot be further from the truth. Sure the West were in a position to dominate and take advantage but they were also pioneers in discovering the world and bringing about a way of life that improved for many.

It was inevitable that nations were going to colonize other nations thats how evolution works. You could say every culture lives within a culture.

I agree there are issues regarding Indigenous rightsbut its not as simple as some make out when it comes to integrating them into mainstream culture. Many go to extremes in wanting to get rid of Western systems altogether and priviledging minority cultures over mainstream ones. Whereas it should be about preserving the best of each culture and working together. But its unreal to say the West was purely an oppressive movement when its brought many benefits.
Maybe that's because the Right has a history of anti-intellectualism, particularly in attacks on the humanities and social sciences.
I would have thought it the other way around where the Left were anti-intellectual. The very idea of promoting the HUmanities over the Hard sciences is to blur the line of what is real. Making relative truth the determination of reality rather than objective reality. Many of the ideas of Leftist academics have no basis in fact or reality and yet are claimed to be fact and truthful knowledge.
 
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stevevw

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Well, you actually blamed the left for it in this thread.
Under the current ideology it is the Left that is intiating much of this. We were OK for millenia based on the long and hard fought truths the West lived by like freedom of speech and belief and democracy.

The gradual eroding of this came through academia with ideas based on Critical theories that then infiltrated institutions and now into mainstream society. Much of the Rights response and reaction at times is in defence of those hard fought truth that the Left is undermining with progressive ideology.

I think you will find that most on the Right are quite happy to have a discussion on these issues laying all the cards on the table as they tend to want the truth to be found. But its the Left more generally and especially the more dominant position where it counts don't want debate but rather want to shut down opposing views like they already know they hold the truth which points more to ideological belief that truth or facts of the matter.

That inevitably ends up leading to reactionary outcomes on both sides. You can't begin to change and live together if one side doesn't even want to talk about the issues.
 
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Bradskii

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Under the current ideology it is the Left that is intiating much of this.
Pick a lane please.

You say that you blamed both sides in another thread. I showed you evidence that the right are the ones actually considering it. You acceded to that. Now we're back to the left.
 
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stevevw

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Pick a lane please.

You say that you blamed both sides in another thread. I showed you evidence that the right are the ones actually considering it. You acceded to that. Now we're back to the left.
The Right has acceded to what exactly.
 
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iluvatar5150

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I agree its the extreme sectors that support violence and both sides are guilty of this. But ideologically I think the Right is more willing to engage in discussion and seek to find the truth and facts of the situation than the Left.


eh... The Right has, in the past, presented a facade of being willing to engage in discussion - and maybe it was true to some degree, once, but even that's broken down over the last decade-or-so. "Engaging in discussion" and "seeking to find the truth" doesn't get you the MAGA movement, or "Stop the Steal"/Jan 6, or the Banghazi hearings, or Birtherism, or Pizzagate, or any number of other nutty positions.

Rewinding the clock a bit, "engaging in discussion" and "seeking to find the truth" doesn't land you on the Right's position and rhetoric with regards to climate change, the Keystone XL pipeline, or most other environmental actions. Nor does it land you on their shallow approach towards taxes and spending, or the hand-wringing over the "gay agenda" and trans kids playing high school sports.

There's a reason that highly educated technocrats (i.e. the folks who favor engaging in discussion and truth-seeking) tend to be center-left: because on the current American political spectrum, that's where most of the solution-based approaches wind up sitting.


We see this in Universities and how the Left deplatforms and shuts down opposing views.

The Left is hardly blameless, but let's not pretend that the Right doesn't engage in these tactics as well. After all, "shutting down opposing views" was the basis for Desantis' actions against Disney. "Shutting down opposing views" was why Texas A&M rescinded its offer to Kathleen McElroy; why Liz Cheney was ostracized from her party; why Mike Pence is being cast aside from the party; why religious folks like Russel Moore, Beth Moore and others are being written off as "woke" for daring to stand up against abuse.

No, the authoritarian wing of the Right has long engaged in "cancel culture." That's not even a matter of debate.

In academia and our Institutions which promotes the victim and oppressor mentality. This will inevitably lead to the idea of punitive and violent uprisings because victims will fight back when percieved as being oppressed of their rights.

There's a time and a place for everything. But just as the Left may be guilty of over-applying that filter, the Right is also guilty of being overly resistant to it and over-applying their preferred individualism filters - an approach that has its own set of failings. IMO, it's not a coincidence that the failings of the Right's approach tend to favor those who already have power and wealth.



Its Leftist ideology to support the victims against oppressors.

It should also be Christian ideology to support victims against oppressors.


Most Western nations are seen as Colonizers, and Capitalists. Leftist policies primarily support anti capitalism and anti traditional Western ideas of democracy and Governance.

What leftist policies support anti-traditional western ideas of democracy and governance? At least in the US, it's overwhelmingly the Left who've been trying to make voting more open and accessible while it's predominantly the Right who've been trying to restrict access and gerrymander themselves into secure majorities. To be clear - I don't think either side is innocent, nor do I think this is solely a product of each side's morals. There are obvious electoral incentives for both the Left and the Right to be acting the way they do. But while the Left isn't above engaging in its own shenanigans, it's been clear that, at least for the last 15 years or so, it's been primarily the Right who've been eager to abandon any previously-stated values regarding civic participation and democracy. The Left has advocacy groups lobbying for expanded voting access for a number of groups regardless of political affiliation, whereas I can't recall seeing anything like that on Right for some time.
 
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o_mlly

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... the Palestinian people ...
Who exactly are the "Palestinian people"?

Are they any Arab-Muslim living west of the Jordan river, east of the Mediterranean, south of Lebanon and northeast of Egypt? If so, then would a Jordanian-Arab-Muslim become a "Palestinian" the moment he migrates over the Jordan river into the West Bank? Would a "Palestinian" person lose that their "Palestinian" identity if they leave the area descrived above? If not, why not?
 
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iluvatar5150

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Thats because the Civil Rights movement under Dr King was about individual rights and they did not see the US itself as oppressive but rather they only wanted the same rights as everyone else under US freedoms. They did not denegrate the very system that allowed them the rights to protest.

ummm.... what?

When the architects of our republic wrote the magnificent words of the Constitution and the Declaration of Independence, they were signing a promissory note to which every American was to fall heir. This note was a promise that all men, yes, Black men as well as White men, would be guaranteed the unalienable rights of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. It is obvious today that America has defaulted on this promissory note insofar as her citizens of color are concerned. Instead of honoring this sacred obligation, America has given the Negro people a bad check, a check which has come back marked insufficient funds.


Whereas todays ideology sees the US and other Western nations as oppressive and the enermy and not only want their rights but want to destroy the enermy thus taking a more antagonistic view which leads to violence.

Thats the problem, that the narrative has been created that takes this antagonistic view that everything the West done was about oppression. This cannot be further from the truth. Sure the West were in a position to dominate and take advantage but they were also pioneers in discovering the world and bringing about a way of life that improved for many.

It was inevitable that nations were going to colonize other nations thats how evolution works. You could say every culture lives within a culture.

Do you not see how you're attempting to whitewash or handwave away the sins of the past?

Is it true that many nations/cultures engaged in some form of colonization and abuse of others? Yes.

Is it true that many others probably would have engaged in it given the opportunity? I assume so.

Is that an excuse to not criticize the ones who actually did it? No.

Sure, "everybody does it / would have done it" ought to inform our critique, especially with regards to valorizing some of the victims of this oppression, but that doesn't mean we just say it was all okay and ignore any of its lingering effects.


I would have thought it the other way around where the Left were anti-intellectual.

huh? How do you argue that it's the Left who are anti-intellectual when intellectuals tend to lean left? Anti-intellectualism is a common feature of both fundamentalist religious sects and populist political movements. Populism may have homes on both the political right and the left, but fundamentalist religions are almost always conservative/right.


The very idea of promoting the HUmanities over the Hard sciences is to blur the line of what is real.

No. No that is not what the humanities do. No halfway decent scientist would claim that the sciences describe all of what's real. If that were the case, then why do you go to church?

Making relative truth the determination of reality rather than objective reality. Many of the ideas of Leftist academics have no basis in fact or reality and yet are claimed to be fact and truthful knowledge.
Do you really want to have a contest to see which side makes more claims with no basis in fact?
 
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expos4ever

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Yes as I mentioned in another thread politics has become more polarized and both sides are engaging in violence.
Bradskii provided some actual data about the degree to which the right embraces violence. I have no comment on the credibility of that data, but that is another story.

Do you have any data to support your assertion about the left embracing violence. We all know that there are certainly some on the left who will embrace violence, but that is not surprising. The key question is how widespread is that view.
 
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comana

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Who exactly are the "Palestinian people"?

Are they any Arab-Muslim living west of the Jordan river, east of the Mediterranean, south of Lebanon and northeast of Egypt? If so, then would a Jordanian-Arab-Muslim become a "Palestinian" the moment he migrates over the Jordan river into the West Bank? Would a "Palestinian" person lose that their "Palestinian" identity if they leave the area descrived above? If not, why not?
Why does any of that matter? It’s the people who live there now, it is their home.
 
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stevevw

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eh... The Right has, in the past, presented a facade of being willing to engage in discussion - and maybe it was true to some degree, once, but even that's broken down over the last decade-or-so. "Engaging in discussion" and "seeking to find the truth" doesn't get you the MAGA movement, or "Stop the Steal"/Jan 6, or the Banghazi hearings, or Birtherism, or Pizzagate, or any number of other nutty positions.

Rewinding the clock a bit, "engaging in discussion" and "seeking to find the truth" doesn't land you on the Right's position and rhetoric with regards to climate change, the Keystone XL pipeline, or most other environmental actions. Nor does it land you on their shallow approach towards taxes and spending, or the hand-wringing over the "gay agenda" and trans kids playing high school sports.
I am not sure about most of these issues you mention as I am not from the US. The US has its own unique way of doing politics. It seems to me some of the issues like Birtherism and Pizzagate are about misinformation which again is common not just in politics but in society in general such as in mainstream media including social media.

As far as I understand and perhaps as a good example of the different ideological thinking behind the Right and Left is the trans issue. Each side has a fundementally different belief. The Right believe in the age old truths of male and female whereas the Left take a more progressive belief that its a spectrum. So as a result the Right as standing up for this truth or objective reality and therefore will be against schools implementing trans and gender ideology.
There's a reason that highly educated technocrats (i.e. the folks who favor engaging in discussion and truth-seeking) tend to be center-left: because on the current American political spectrum, that's where most of the solution-based approaches wind up sitting.
It depends on what the solutions are I would think. Perhaps the version of "solution-based approaches" is itself motivated by ideology. Afterall we all want solutions to problems. BUt generally politics is designed to twart solutions where each side will disagree about how to resolve an issue due to political beliefs. Much of the so called solutions are not solutations at all.
The Left is hardly blameless, but let's not pretend that the Right doesn't engage in these tactics as well. After all, "shutting down opposing views" was the basis for Desantis' actions against Disney. "Shutting down opposing views" was why Texas A&M rescinded its offer to Kathleen McElroy; why Liz Cheney was ostracized from her party; why Mike Pence is being cast aside from the party; why religious folks like Russel Moore, Beth Moore and others are being written off as "woke" for daring to stand up against abuse.
Yes it seems the Right sometimes engage in the same tactics perhaps justified sometimes. But I agree politics has decended into games. But what I am talking about is more fundemental. The Left basically support socialism and there are many Marxist underpinnings to their ideas like anti capitalism and more government control on all sorts of issues like family, marriage which are really private matters of freedom.

At the extreme end this ideology evolves into communism and we have seen glimpses of this in nations like Canada. It seems many nations are going this way even embracing China as a good political example of how the West can solve its economic problems. Certainly we are seeing our rights eroded in recent years and it seems most of these nations have Leftist governments.
No, the authoritarian wing of the Right has long engaged in "cancel culture." That's not even a matter of debate.
Once again you must be talking about the US. Sure there are sections of politics that are more extreme but I was speacking generally. The fact is in recent years cancel culture, PC and Woke ideology has increased under Leftist governments. Canada is an example as already mentioned. But to a lessor degree its happened in all Western nations.
There's a time and a place for everything. But just as the Left may be guilty of over-applying that filter, the Right is also guilty of being overly resistant to it and over-applying their preferred individualism filters - an approach that has its own set of failings. IMO, it's not a coincidence that the failings of the Right's approach tend to favor those who already have power and wealth.
I agree to a point as I don't like having any power have too much control. But it seems the Left have over compensated and distorted what was actually happening. I am not sure the complaints claimed by some about the evils of capitalism and tradition are as bad as they make out.

Yes there were issues that needed to be addressed like rising poor class and increasing corporate power. But to say that Western nations were evil capitalists and colonizers is an over reaction. That over reaction was engineered by ideologues post 60's revolutions and now has entered mainstream society resulting in culture wars which are dividing society.
It should also be Christian ideology to support victims against oppressors.
Yes of course but you have to first identify whether there is a victim and oppressor in the first place and not just assume that every difference is the result of a victim/oppressor situation. The ideologues on the Left take the view that all difference is the result of victim/oppressor relationships which is not the case.

We have to remember that I think both sides believe in supporting victims or the needy and disadvanatged. Its just that each side sees who are the victims/needy and how we can help them differently.
What leftist policies support anti-traditional western ideas of democracy and governance? At least in the US, it's overwhelmingly the Left who've been trying to make voting more open and accessible while it's predominantly the Right who've been trying to restrict access and gerrymander themselves into secure majorities.
Once again I am not familiar with US political system. But I did hear something about an increase in postal voting which may contribute to voter fraud. I think both sides will try to get an advantage and engage in unfair tactics. Thats the nature of politics which may make a case that the political system is in need of reforming.
To be clear - I don't think either side is innocent, nor do I think this is solely a product of each side's morals. There are obvious electoral incentives for both the Left and the Right to be acting the way they do. But while the Left isn't above engaging in its own shenanigans, it's been clear that, at least for the last 15 years or so, it's been primarily the Right who've been eager to abandon any previously-stated values regarding civic participation and democracy. The Left has advocacy groups lobbying for expanded voting access for a number of groups regardless of political affiliation, whereas I can't recall seeing anything like that on Right for some time.
I think generally democracy has eroded and maybe thats a result of the natural evolution of how society has grown. But more generally like I said earlier I think socialism has grown and maybe thats a reaction against the negative aspects of capitalism gone too far. But it seems socialist governments are more likely to wind back freedoms because thats the nature of the philosophy.

Not that I don't think there are some good aspect of socialism. But I think as a political ideology it fails as well and we are seeing that is nations like Canada.
 
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