Question for my Democratic friends

essentialsaltes

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o_mlly

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Why does any of that matter? It’s the people who live there now, it is their home.
If so then labelling the Israeli military action as either genocide or as ethnic cleansing are incorrect. The IDF is waging a legitimate defensive war against an unjust aggressor.
 
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comana

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If so then labelling the Israeli military action as either genocide or as ethnic cleansing are incorrect. The IDF is waging a legitimate defensive war against an unjust aggressor.
I never claimed genocide by the Israelis.
 
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Bradskii

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But we could also say looking from todays position especially if this is distorted by ideology that some of the past so called oppression was not actually oppression but just the normal evolution of hyarchical systems that happen as a result of natural differences but is blamed on oppression.
'You lynched that guy just because he was black?'

'No, you idiot. It was just the normal evolution of hyarchical systems that happen as a result of natural differences.'
 
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stevevw

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'You lynched that guy just because he was black?'
No the ideologues did that when they started to over emphasize differences rather than overlook them.
'No, you idiot. It was just the normal evolution of hyarchical systems that happen as a result of natural differences.'
The same thing. The point was not all differences were the result of oppression. Hyarchical system naturally form as a result of those natural differences.

But ideologues will see any difference as the result of oppression. Individual ability, natural talent and hard work is dismissed as making a difference because there is no difference in gender or sex or race. According to DEI under equity all outcomes should end up the same regardless of race, sex and gender. If its not we must engineer society so that it does.

Thats when the individual is lost to the group identity and we begin to divide people into groups and emphasize the differences rather than universal principles of equality based on our individual rights to certain freedoms regardless of our race, gender or sex.

So the ideology rather than being a solution to the injustices of the past actually cultivates the very thing it claims to be addressing.

That is why we have seen an increase in identity politics and more conflict and division rather than unity. We have lost our common truth principles that we built the West on which was in the constitutions and declarations of nations that all individuals are born with natural inalienable rights regardless of race, gender, sex or the ever increasing list of identities.
 
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Bradskii

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The same thing. The point was not all differences were the result of oppression.
But oppression is the result of perceived differences. Keep oppressing on those perceived differences and you'll get a lot of push back.

If people keep denigrating and marginalizing any group of people just because they are part of a group, be it atheist or Chrisian, black or white, straight or gay, male or female then they will called out on it by any reasonable person. And those who simultaneously bleat about 'identity politics' will be ridiculed into the bargain.

You and others are fond of saying that some people want to be treated differently. When what those peple mean is that they want to be treated differently to how you treat them. They want what all people should reasonably expect. Respect and to be given what we classify down here as a fair go.

Those two things are very often thin on the ground.
 
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o_mlly

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I never claimed genocide by the Israelis.
You referred to the "Palestinian people" in your post. The term is ambiguous; I merely wanted to know how you determined that a person is a member of the "Palestinian people".

The OP questions the hypocrisy of some Democratic congress people's support for Hamas and simultaneous support for organizations or causes opposing "homophobic, transphobic, anti- LGBTQ, misogynistic and racism". In the course of the thread, Hamas became equivocal with the "Palestinian people".

As we are in the "Ethics and Morality" forum, it seems to me that a fundamental question to be answered is whether the IDF is waging a just war.
 
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stevevw

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44% is not a majority.
But there was more than two candidates so when all parties considered they held the majority votes and % and of course seats out of all parties. Thats how even some Western democracies work. Trump evidently had fewer % votes and I know in my country a major party has won with lower % of votes or has had to form a minority government.

But thats not even the point. My point was that Hamas was voted in legitimately by the Palestinians just like they voted for Fatah before. At that time Hamas was seen as part of the Palestinians, their elected reps to the world and though they had done some bad things to Western standards the Palestinians still supported them as their reps.

Over time many Western nations especially FRanceaccepted Hamas as part of Palestine in making an independent State.
Palestine has had local elections in 2012, 2017 and 2021. Gaza has not participated.
Yes and that is who we are talking about Gaza. So they have rarely had elections. Neither has many other Middle Eastern nations.

According to The Economist Group's Democracy Index 2020 study, Israel is the only democratic country (qualified as a "flawed democracy", ranked #28 worldwide) in the Middle East.

I would say the parts of Palestine who did have legit elections or regular election was due to the influence of Western nations like Isreal and the US rather than them naturally holding legit elections.
 
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stevevw

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But oppression is the result of perceived differences. Keep oppressing on those perceived differences and you'll get a lot of push back.
But percieved differences is not always the result of oppression. Thats an important destinction because one persons percieved oppression is another person or groups or societies natural circumstance. You can't just assume that perceived differences in someone else, their behaviour is because of oppression

There are more males in STEM jobs but not all that and in fact the majority of that is not the result of males oppressing females. There are more female teachers and in Human services but thats not all because females are oppressing males out of those jobs.

But if someone percieves all differences in outcomes are the result of oppression then all the disparities between males and females in those examples will be seen as oppression and the other factors that may contribute to those difference will be dismissed.

So we have to determine the facts otherwise we create a victim mentality and deny the important differences that are natural and make us individuals.
If people keep denigrating and marginalizing any group of people just because they are part of a group, be it atheist or Chrisian, black or white, straight or gay, male or female then they will called out on it by any reasonable person. And those who simultaneously bleat about 'identity politics' will be ridiculed into the bargain.
The important destinction you made here was "if people keep denigrating and marginalizing". Thats the difference we have to work out. Purposely and with malice denying others their rights as individuals.

But just because an individual or a group of individuals may be sucessful and gain priviledges bacuase of their natural ability or hard work and another group may be disadvantaged in comparison doesn't mean anyone is being malice or engaging in marginalizing another group.

Life is not always fair. People who do well tend to take the opportunities, iniate things and are willing to sacrifice other things to achieve their goals or full potential.

Its when people in positions of advantage or at the top of the hierarchies use that position to exploit others intentionally that it becomes oppressive.
You and others are fond of saying that some people want to be treated differently. When what those peple mean is that they want to be treated differently to how you treat them. They want what all people should reasonably expect. Respect and to be given what we classify down here as a fair go.

Those two things are very often thin on the ground.
Unfortunately it works both ways and in all directions. One groups success is anothers failure, one groups advantage is anothers disadvantage in some ways and its hard to equal things out when theres so many intersections of difference competing under identity politics.

You say that people are actually asking to be treated differently from the way "you and others" treat them. Which by the way is creating differences in itself by treating people as another tribe and the 'other'. But how do we know that the way that the others are behaving that upsets some people is acting badly or just behaving according to their belief and conscience.

Of course we should be courteous and respectful but I think because people may not behave like some want them too I don't think they are necessarily doing anything wrong or being disrepectful. They still respect differences, they are not denying those people the right to exist and have opportunities the same as what they and everyone has.

There still may be a conflict of differences when both sides are living according to their natural selves and its just a fact of life. The WEstern nations are the most accommodating and the nations other oppressed people want to come to and for good reason. Because we do allow opportunities and freedoms though this is dwindling in recent years.

I think this is the problem in categorizing everyone into groups, the other, us and them and not having a unified belief about how society should be. This is what modern society has become and more and more people are falling into this way of thinking.

We seem to be winding back those freedoms and truth principles like the individual rather than group which overlooks the differences and unites us as common human beings. Maybe thats a result of becoming more diversified and pluralistic and have lost our united identity but I think its more because we focus on differences rather than commonalities.
 
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iluvatar5150

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But percieved differences is not always the result of oppression. Thats an important destinction because one persons percieved oppression is another person or groups or societies natural circumstance. You can't just assume that oppression is the result of perceived differences.

Perhaps not, but you are guilty of making a lot of unsupported assumptions in the other direction:

There are more males in STEM jobs but not all that and in fact the majority of that is not the result of males oppressing females.

How do you know that that's not the cause?

In the early days of computing (e.g. the 60's and 70's), gender distributions in tech fields were more equal than they are now. What changed?

Women make up >40% of Biology and Chemistry fields, but far lower percentages in fields related to engineering, math, and computers, with the rates falling over the course of high school and college. Why?

Given that women typically do better in school than boys, it's unlikely to be a biologically-related performance issue. Could it be something related to the culture of these fields and the way society treats some of these subjects as "for boys"?

There are more female teachers and in Human services but thats not all because females are oppressing males out of those jobs.

These fields have absolutely been positioned within the culture as "for women" and I've heard a number of comments about guys being wary of going into them (especially teaching) because of the amount of suspicion directed towards them related to pedophilia.

They also tend to pay lower, partly because they've historically been considered "women's work."
 
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dlamberth

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In the early days of computing (e.g. the 60's and 70's), gender distributions in tech fields were more equal than they are now. What changed?
I'd like to know where you got that information. I worked in a Computer Research Lab back in the 70's. There were only 2 women out of 40 with doctorates in Computer Science on staff.
 
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iluvatar5150

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I'd like to know where you got that information. I worked in a Computer Research Lab back in the 70's. There were only 2 women out of 40 with doctorates in Computer Science on staff.
Derp, I got my decades wrong. Both degree granting and employment for women in comp sci (as a percentage of the total) peaked in the mid-80's.
 
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stevevw

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Perhaps not, but you are guilty of making a lot of unsupported assumptions in the other direction:
OK so where have I made such unsupported assumptions.
How do you know that that's not the cause?
Because of studies especially in the Scandinavian countries who are the most egalitarian nations in the world. It seems the more egalitarian a society is the more the differences in choice about which fields genders go into where males choose STEM and females choose other fields like Humanities.

Even if an average girl was as good as an average boy at science, she was still likely to be even better at reading. Across all countries, 24 percent of girls had science as their best subject, 25 percent of girls’ strength was math, and 51 percent excelled in reading. For boys, 38% for science, 42% for math, and 20% for reading. And the more gender-equal the country, as measured by the World Economic Forum’s Global Gender Gap Index, the larger this disparity between boys and girls in showing science to be their best subject.
https://www.theatlantic.com/science...nder-equality-the-fewer-women-in-stem/553592/


In the early days of computing (e.g. the 60's and 70's), gender distributions in tech fields were more equal than they are now. What changed?
Perhaps that may have been the upsurge in promoting females into tech fields due to implementing equality measures. But as time goes by and things become more equal where people are free to choose with any pressures to push genders into certain fileds it appears for various reasons females freely choose humanity fields and males choose fields associated to working with things.

This may be because females seem to be better at relating to people, interpersonal relationships and readings and writing. Whereas males seem to like working with things as they think in more spatial terms.
Women make up >40% of Biology and Chemistry fields, but far lower percentages in fields related to engineering, math, and computers, with the rates falling over the course of high school and college. Why?
I think the reason the rates fall is because even though females results are close to males in STEM fields they are much stronger than men in humanity fields. So they may see too much competition with males in STEM whereas they have a clear advantage compared to males in humanities meaning they have a greater chance of securing a career in their fields.
Given that women typically do better in school than boys, it's unlikely to be a biologically-related performance issue. Could it be something related to the culture of these fields and the way society treats some of these subjects as "for boys"?
Certainly males dominated STEM and there was a movement to address this difference focusing on women into STEM. But I think generally there has been a focus on females in education in the last few decades which may have come at the cost of males. Young boys are falling further and further behind across al levels of education. Females now outnumber males in degrees. I a large extent this has been sociall constructed.
These fields have absolutely been positioned within the culture as "for women" and I've heard a number of comments about guys being wary of going into them (especially teaching) because of the amount of suspicion directed towards them related to pedophilia.
Yes I think the narrative around males has cast a negative light over them in fields working with children. But more generally I think males are just not as good at relating and caring for people. As mentioned they relate and like to work with things. Thats why males dominate the trades as they like working with construction and fixing and building stuff. Thats why they dominate the gaming industry as they are constantly on their computers even to the point of negatively affecting relationships.
They also tend to pay lower, partly because they've historically been considered "women's work."
Or they use to be considered a public service where the State did not want to pay a lot like for nurses. Yet they perform the most vital services for society. I also thing as teaching is associated with humanities in academia the humanity fields has seen the greatest growth even overtaking the hard sciences in our institutions.

There has been a massive growth in human services, HR, and DEI fields which has been made compulsory across all fields and thus a emphasis on research, policy, management and administrators in these fields. Most occupied by females as this is their strength in fields relating to human interactions and comunications.
 
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iluvatar5150

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Perhaps that may have been the upsurge in promoting females into tech fields due to implementing equality measures.

What measures like that existed in the 70’s and 80’s?

I think the reason the rates fall is because even though females results are close to males in STEM fields they are much stronger than men in humanity fields.
Chemistry and Biology are STEM fields. Women do fine in them.

I can’t read the Atlantic article because of a paywall, but this Arstecnica article about the same study says the authors hypothesize that the cause of the phenomenon is a combination of boys’ overconfidence and these egalitarian countries’ strong social safety nets reducing the financial appeal of these fields for girls.
 
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stevevw

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What measures like that existed in the 70’s and 80’s?
I'm assuming that after the womens movement of the 60's and 70's which was all about womens Rights there would have been a push for women into male dominated fields.

But it seems women were mostly employed in coding as it was seen more suited to women because it was similar to typing. I don't think there was much more work than that as it was fairly basic back then. Todays a lot of computer tech is associated with gaming and thats very male dominated.
Chemistry and Biology are STEM fields. Women do fine in them.
Yes but they are different to say Engineering which you would expect males to be more inclined to do. Biology can be linked to behaviour nowadays such as evolutionary psychology and culture which females would relate to more.
I can’t read the Atlantic article because of a paywall, but this Arstecnica article about the same study says the authors hypothesize that the cause of the phenomenon is a combination of boys’ overconfidence and these egalitarian countries’ strong social safety nets reducing the financial appeal of these fields for girls.
Yes there are a number of influences. But I think part of it comes back to the natural differences in thinking and preferences. The strongest subjects for males is math and their weakest is reading and writing. Whereas reading and writing is far stronger in females and they are about on par with males in math. But at the top the very best mathmaticians are males.

So when it gets to the high end where the best candidates are competing males would normally dominate and out compete females which may lead to some choosing the softer sciences like in Human services and biology where they can feel more comfortable in securing a career.

Part of the reason why some women go into STEM fields in non elgalitarian nations as your article mentions is because it may give them more security. That makes sense as STEM fields are seen as good paying and in demand in developing nations.

The point though as we can see the reasons for differences between genders is far more complex that being just about males oppressing females.
 
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Akita Suggagaki

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"Critical Race Theory"(CRT) is a spinoff of the Marxist "Critical Theory." Derrick Bell is given the most credit for founding CRT. Class warfare and hatred is replaced by race warfare and hatred.
"I have found that when you hold someone accountable for hurtful behavior and they feel shame, that's not the same as shaming someone." Brene Brown

Smart girl, that Brene.
 
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stevevw

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Tell me why do University students and other activist always spark up when it involves the Jews. They protest at the inhuman Isreal are treating Palestinians for Human Rights.

Yet they ignore the many conflicts that were going on before or at the same time and still happening where Muslim nations are warring with themselves killing many and denying Human Rights. The war in Yemeni for example has been going on from 11 plus years and there has been 150,000 people killed including 11,000 children.

Yet we never see students or activists protesting these wars, deaths and the humanity crisis it brings. There seems to be something about the Jews. Activist will overlook Muslim abuse and barbaric acts but protest when Isreal is involved. Is there something about the Jews that sets them off. Triggers something where they suddenly want to attack Jews in particular.

This seems more than about land, ethnic rights or human treatment. It seems more ideological to focus on one ethnic group over another.
 
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stevevw

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So, yet again: what are the names of the members of Congress who openly supported Hamas?

You guys wouldn't be making things up, would you?
Sorry I missed this post. I did link something back a few pages here

Also here

Though things have settled down a bit now and more people are beginning to support Isreal. But their initial reaction was to either support Hamas and the Palestinians or draw no destinction between the two or refused to condemn Hamas which is sort of another way of supporting them because the silence can be a greater wrong by not condemning inhumane treatment you are allowing it to continue.
 
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essentialsaltes

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Yet they ignore the many conflicts that were going on before or at the same time and still happening
What? LIke Russia's invasion of Ukraine?

Students Stand With Ukraine

At campuses across the country, students are marching, waving blue-and-yellow flags, and raising funds and awareness to support Ukrainians as they fight back against the Russian invasion.


The war in Yemeni for example has been going on from 11 plus years and there has been 150,000 people killed including 11,000 children.
It's not exactly a burning issue here on the forums (or in the news), either. The last post clearly about the conflict in Yemen was me and public hermit posting about Biden ending support for Saudi's military intervention 2.5 years ago.
 
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